2008.12.02 13:00 - Dialogue Part III: Pema and Stim

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    The Guardian this session was genesis Zhangsun.  The comments below are hers.

     This was the third dialogue between Pema and Stim.  This dialogue responds to an email sent out by Pema last week.  The email is included below.


    Hi All,

    Why do we play as Being, and why do we do it in Second Life?

    We have heard several ever shorter answers to the first question:
    we combine explorations in science, philosophy, contemplation;
    we drop what we have to see what we are;
    we trade duration for frequency;
    we appreciate appearance;
    we see;
    we be

    with the "we" shifting, starting out with our usual identification
    with who we think we are, and moving to a "we" that is closer to
    Being iself.

    But what about the second question, why do this in Second Life?
    Sure, it is fun, and sure, it is convenient: we can log in from
    anywhere, at any time.  But there is something more to the use
    of SL, or any virtual world for that matter.

    The more time I am spending in SL, the more I realize its great
    opportunities for celebration, and its great limitations for any
    form of traditional contemplative practice.  I had no idea about
    either of those in April when PaB was born, but during the eight
    months since then this has become more and more clear to me.
    Let me summarize; I look forward to your feedback!

    1. From Celebration to Limitations to Celebration

    Any long and serious contemplative training path starts and ends
    with celebration.  The first step is a celebration of exploring
    anything at all, concerning the nature of reality.  They can take
    the form of sitting on a cushion and doing breathing exercises,
    or of following any other relatively simple prescription for an
    initial calming of the mind.  We simply celebrate that there is
    a path to follow, a way into seeing and living reality.

    After that, when we get deeper into particular forms of practice,
    we run into all kinds of obstacles, each of us in our own way,
    and it is then essential to have a teacher guide us, in the type
    of close personal contact that is possible in RL, but very hard
    to imagine happening in SL.

    And finally, at the end of a traditional contemplative training,
    we may come home to the market place, seeing everything in the
    light of Being, in the open empty clarity of Being.  Celebrating
    the end of the path is again possible in SL, just like celebrating
    entering the path is.

    2. From Surprise to Awe

    Seeing this three-fold structure was quite a surprise for me,
    but the more I saw this, the more it seemed natural and right.

    Dropping our *daily* concerns we can do without much personal
    guidance; entering initial forms of sitting meditation we can do
    in a friendly group in SL.  And indeed, there are several such
    groups, fortunately, in SL, Zen Retreat being one of them.

    Dropping our *practice* concerns is another move that we can
    do without much personal guidance, in a friendly group in SL;
    this is the awe-fully radical notion behind PaB, and behind
    other groups in SL, such as Avastu's group.

    Anything in between, the whole spectrum from western therapy to
    advanced meditative practices, requires more than an environment
    in which the typists behind the avatars are anonymous and where
    there is no eye contact, no voice contact, no body language.

    3. Oh yes, Oh no, Oh . . . WHAT ?!?

    I expect that most people will agree that, yes, one can enter a
    path of practice in SL, and no, that one cannot really progress
    very far on such a path solely in SL, exchanging only text chat.

    In fact, on more than one occasion in this PaB email group have
    we talked about the potential dangers and drawbacks of dealing
    with deeply emotional states, with strong personal elation and
    depression and the question of how, if at all, we can give each
    other advice in such matters.  Speaking for myself, the longer
    I am in SL, the more I am learning to listen while avoiding the
    temptation to give advice, simply because I really don't know
    whom I am talking to on the other end.

    So yes, SL is great for entering a path of reality exploration,
    and no, SL is the wrong vehicle for most of the middle parts of
    such a path.  But can SL be a tool for starting at the end of
    that kind of path?

    Any normal, rational, sane response would be: no, of course not!
    If such a limited environment as SL is only good enough to get
    out of our daily rut, to start sitting and breathing in a more
    relaxed way, without much further potential for deepening a lived
    exploration, how can you possibly expect that the very pinnacle
    of such an exploration will become accessible again for SL?

    Good question!  I invite you all to reflect for a while on how
    truly shocking it is what we are trying to do in Play as Being:

     We leapfrog all forms of practice done by all great practitioners
     in all traditions that have ever existed, and we claim that it is
     meaningful to start at their end, to make their end our beginning.

     o o o o o

     o o o o o

     o o o o o

    4. No Teacher, No Experiment, Nothing Other-Worldly

    I invite you all to respond, after reflecting on the most
    radical nature of our Play as Being initiative.  And let me
    throw out three more talking points: no teacher, no experiment,
    nothing other-worldly.

    -- in this most radical approach, their cannot be a teacher or guru,
      since in this view there are no beings, not even any awake beings,
      no beings to help other beings and no beings that can be helped,
      there is only the emptiness and openness and clarity of Being;

    -- in this most radical approach, we are not conducting an experiment,
      strictly speaking, but rather we are celebrating what is, as it is,
      with no goal and no expectation, no hope, no fear, and no us either;

    -- in this most radical approach, there is still the appearance of the
      whole world, us included, so nothing has changed and everything has
      changed, we find ourselves back in the market place, empty handed.

    5. From ES to BS, from Enlightened Seeing to Being Seeing

    Finally, to help clarify some of what I have tried to point out here,
    it may help to get a sense of what is close to the end of the path, by
    reading "Imagine You’re Enlightened", by Ken McLeod, at the web site


    This is a beautifully written example of some of the later stages of a
    path of practice, where still a personal teacher is absolutely essential,
    as the writer points out.  Therefore, I suggest you to read this article
    for inspiration, not for complete emulation if you don't have a qualified
    teacher to guide you.  But it gives you a sense of what such later stages
    can look like.  And it also can give you a perspective of where PaB fits
    in, as an even later stage that is no longer a stage, but rather the end
    point -- paradoxically in all respects, since it is endless and pointless
    and pathless in just letting Being Be.

    I feel that this article may help us, given as it talks directly about
    two aspects of Being: Commitment Being and Awareness Being.  In the
    traditional way, commitment comes first, and awareness comes much later.
    In our crazy way, we start with awareness right away.  But we are not
    completely crazy, and we have to come to terms as to what it may mean
    to do so.  Let's talk!

    Thankfully Yours on this Thanksgiving Day in Middle North America,


    I enter and quite a crowd has gathered for this third session...by the time people get settled I count fifteen present.

    Wol Euler: hello maxine, gen
    Stim Morane: Perhaps we should just take a nap then.
    Wol Euler: ;)
    Maxine Walden: hi, Wol, Gen, Stim, Becka
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Stim, Wol, Becka, Fael
    Stim Morane: Hi Gen
    Fael Illyar: Hi Maxine, Gen :)
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey Maxine
    Becka Finesmith: Hi Maxine, Gen
    Maxine Walden: hi, Fael
    Becka Finesmith: JohnBoy
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey Scathach
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Maxine, Gen
    Fael Illyar: Hi Pema :)
    Wol Euler: good evening Mr. Pera.
    Maxine Walden: hi, Scathach, nice to meet you
    Pema Pera: Good morning everbody :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Pema:)
    Stim Morane: Hi Pema
    Maxine Walden: oh, hi, Pema
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Pema!
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Maxine Walden: Hope you are feeling rested, Pema, now in Japan
    Fael Illyar: Hi Fefonz :)
    Pema Pera: oh sure, jetlag is a kind of dream yoga :)
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Maxine Walden: pleasant dreams!
    Fefonz Quan: Hello all
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Fefonz!
    Maxine Walden: hi Fefonz
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Febonz
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Fael Illyar: Hi Tarmel :)
    Wol Euler: hello tarmel
    Tarmel Udimo: hi everyone
    Stim Morane: Hi Tarmel
    Faenik: Erm... Wasn't there supposed to be a dialog today?
    Wol Euler looks around.
    Maxine Walden: that was my understanding as well, Fael
    Becka Finesmith: and mine
    Fael Illyar: Hi Gilles :)
    Wol Euler: hello gilles
    Pema Pera: unfortunately, my MacBook pro freezes up irregularly
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Pema Pera: which means I can't type anything for full minute (!)
    Becka Finesmith: Must be a MAC feature ;)
    Pema Pera: and what is worse, I miss some sentences
    Pema Pera: it got worse after I updated to the new version
    Faenik: why not?
    Gilles Kuhn: greetings all
    Becka Finesmith: Are you going to do the dialogue in voice?
    Fael Illyar: make sure it's not thinking you've got too much texture memory.
    Pema Pera: I'll talk with the LL folks soon about what to do about this "known problem"
    Pema Pera: meanwhile, I'll occasionally IM some of you for missing lines . . . .
    Fael Illyar: it tends to require 4-5x as much main memory for the texture memory it uses
    genesis Zhangsun: shall we begin?
    Pema Pera: yes, let's!
    Fael Illyar: occasional freezing sounds like it's swapping :)
    genesis Zhangsun: so just for clarity Pema the first 30 minutes will be dialogue
    Pema Pera: So Stim and I will talke for a while, and then we will open up the floor (and the pond) for general disussion
    Pema Pera: yes, thanks Gen :)

    And so the dialogue begins...

    Pema Pera: I suggested as a starting point the paragraphs from one of my earlier emails
    Pema Pera: that has come up now a few times:
    Pema Pera: We leapfrog all forms of practice done by all great practitioners in all traditions that have ever existed, and we claim that it is meaningful to start at their end, to make their end our beginning.
    Pema Pera: Stim made a comment about that, by email. Stim, would you like to start here?
    Stim Morane: I doubt that I made much of a comment, but rather just raised the question of what this means.
    Pema Pera: for one thing, it does not mean that we should ignore or "skip" anything
    Pema Pera: skipping in the sense of starting at the beginning and then leaving out something
    Pema Pera: not that kind of shortcut
    Pema Pera: rather
    Pema Pera: if anyone has a path they are happy with, a path of practice and exploration
    Stim Morane: have you frozen, Pema?
    Pema Pera: then I suggest that in addition, in parallel, they can also play with the notion of starting at the end, or better: take into account that we are already at the end, and that you can see that
    Stim Morane: oops
    Pema Pera: no, not yet, Stim :)
    Stim Morane: sounds interesting
    Pema Pera: and if someone has not path, that's equally fine, that it is possible to just start looking at the end
    Pema Pera: it is not exclusive but complementary
    Pema Pera: does that seem right?
    Stim Morane: I tend to think that people start where they are. With the kind of mind they have at that time.
    Pema Pera: but that can also be taken in two ways: with what/where they think they are, and with what/where they really are
    Pema Pera: and I suggest we do both simulatenously
    Stim Morane: Yes, as for the latter aspect, that certainly must be respected and acknowledged.
    Stim Morane: but of course that applies to more traditional approaches to study as well.
    Pema Pera: yes. and the practical question is twofold:
    Faenik: ah :)
    Pema Pera: how to respect the more traditional approaches, especially the ones you may already be engaged in
    Pema Pera: and at the same time how to let this "end of the path" be more than an idea
    Pema Pera: or to sum up: to be true to traditions and to be true to what is
    Pema Pera: Do you think we can do that here?
    Stim Morane: of course, but again... to whatever extent a given person is capable of at a given time
    Pema Pera: ah!
    Pema Pera: but from the "end" view, that last question should not be a barrier
    Stim Morane: feel free to elaborate
    Pema Pera: so there are two very different views
    Pema Pera: the relative one, from the more traditional path
    Pema Pera: and the absolute one, from starting at the end
    Pema Pera: (words are tricky here, and far too limited, we should come back to these clumsy definitions when needed)
    Pema Pera: so in the relative picture, of course what you said is right: Stim Morane: of course, but again... to whatever extent a given person is capable of at a given time
    Pema Pera: but at the same time, in the absolute picture, there are no such limits
    Pema Pera: there are no persons, as you have often emphasized within such a picture
    Stim Morane: yes, then the absolute view, there is also no need to awaken
    Pema Pera: yes
    Stim Morane: in the absolute view there is no being
    Stim Morane: no issue
    Pema Pera: (frozen for a minute, sorry)
    Pema Pera: yes, that is crucial
    Pema Pera: so we should avoid a cross-over language or idea, that the absolute view allows a path . .
    Pema Pera: . . . . very tricky not to fall into that language and/or into those ideas
    Stim Morane: yes.
    Stim Morane: And I think the notion of "starting at the end" falls prey to that mistake
    Pema Pera: so my "start at the end" may be misleading
    Pema Pera: ah, yes, same thoughts :)
    Pema Pera: "be at the end"
    Stim Morane: better... but maybe not very exciting
    Pema Pera: or "be, in a way that may seem `at the end'" from the relative viewpoint
    Pema Pera: that's okay, Stim
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Faenik: why not?
    Pema Pera: as soon as one gets a taste of it, it's VERY exciting and totally NON exciting, at the same time
    Pema Pera: so I'm not worried about that
    Stim Morane: "as soon as"?
    Pema Pera: the "Play" in PaB and the group will together give us enough excitement
    Pema Pera: well, yes, from the relative point of view "as soon as" it starts to sink in more
    Stim Morane: :)
    Pema Pera: of courese not fro the absolute point of view
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: so the biggest challenge is how to combine the two
    Stim Morane: I would suggest just relaxing
    Stim Morane: one of the hallmarks of being awake is that there is no concern about being awake
    Pema Pera: yes, I can see that -- but how do you translate that in what we are doing here?
    Stim Morane: good question
    Pema Pera: we have two totally different views
    Wol Euler: hello dacsi, welcome back.
    Pema Pera: so to combine them here seems impossible, it's an enormous koan
    dacsi Rexen: hello
    dacsi Rexen: all
    Pema Pera: from the relative point of view, the absolute one does not make sense
    Pema Pera: Hi Dacsi!
    Stim Morane: my point was simply that the notion of combining them is not part of an awakened view
    Stim Morane: there's nothing to combine
    Pema Pera: and from the absolute view, there is no separate relative one
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: combining seems impossible either way
    Stim Morane: :)
    Pema Pera: for different reasons
    Pema Pera: from relative, there is no absolute, it is nonsense
    Pema Pera: from absolute, there is no separate relative, it is already included
    Pema Pera: is that a reasonable summary, you think?
    Stim Morane: Yes. But let's start somewhere else: which you like to talk a bit about why you thought of this idea in the first place?
    Stim Morane: *would you
    Pema Pera: in both my own explorations and in what I understand from talking with others and reading the literature
    Pema Pera: the crucial point seems to be that all our attempts at waking up are misdirected
    Pema Pera: and it seems that we can drop all that effort
    Pema Pera: but the question is how
    Pema Pera: that is the "content" answer to your question
    Pema Pera: there is also the question of how to do that, I mean, in what setting
    Pema Pera: and there I see PaB as novel, in that it is peer-based, not teacher-student
    Stim Morane: yes
    Wol Euler smies and raises an eyebrow.
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Pema Pera: Do you want to add more, Stim, or shall we throw the floor open?
    Stim Morane: As you know, I always try to teach in at "top down" way... starting from the highest understanding that a given person can use properly. This is very important to me. But note, it's different from climbing that a group of people with different aptitudes and experience can all "start of the (absolute) end".
    Stim Morane: *claiming that
    Pema Pera: so let me try to reformulate, refine
    Pema Pera: a heterogeneous group might be able to hold a view in which there is no need for starting/reaching, and they may then do a kind of joint research, as peers, to clarify what that could possibly mean
    Stim Morane: yes.
    Stim Morane: I certainly think that everyone should start with that view, and that is in fact how I teach.
    Stim Morane: But what it means to people is the question.
    Stim Morane: It will change drastically as they proceed.
    Pema Pera: oh, yes
    Pema Pera: it has to
    Pema Pera: Shall we invite everyone to join us now?
    Stim Morane: Sure

    The session opens to the floor...I am itching to ask a question.

    genesis Zhangsun: So I have a question
    Pema Pera: (and if any other pair of you would like to hold a similar debate, please speak up!)
    genesis Zhangsun: you said Stim that the notion of a combination (absolute and relative) is not part of an awakened view, what is then part of an "awakened view"
    genesis Zhangsun: or is it a view at all?
    Stim Morane: I cannot answer that.
    genesis Zhangsun: ok well it sounds very mysterious
    Stim Morane: It is not a view in any ordinary sense ... nor is there someone who has it.
    Stim Morane: we're stuck with ordinary language, pressing it into a nonordinary role
    genesis Zhangsun: yes I can appreciate that
    Gilles Kuhn: btw could you define awakening i know that this notion is important in oriental tradition and it exist too in plato and in western mystic but frankly has a rationnalist it smell dusty and well obscurantist to me
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.

    Teachers and Students or Peer Research?

    Maxine Walden: what do we do with the likelihood that most of us consider Pema and Stim as teachers, so that when one is in the group we feel we do have a teacher?
    Stim Morane: Ick
    Stim Morane: :)
    Fefonz Quan: ?
    genesis Zhangsun: how do others feel?
    Stim Morane: I preferred the "friend" model. But it's true, I do use the word "teach"
    genesis Zhangsun: do you all perceive Stim and Pema as our teachers?
    Gilles Kuhn: ell has a teacher you alway learn from good student and so they became teachers too
    Wol Euler: some pupils are more equal than others ...
    Gilles Kuhn: well*
    Fefonz Quan: "guides" would be prefered by me
    Stim Morane: a good choice
    Fael Illyar doesn't especially see anyone as a teacher.
    Stim Morane: I tend to think of it as telling someone new in town how to find the post office
    Pema Pera: I like "mentor" and I hope we all become more and more mentors to each other -- as we are already beginning to do, I feel
    Wol Euler nods
    Gilles Kuhn: i dont see anybody as guide teacher i can admit but mostly i see people as intelctuals equals (when they indeed are...)
    Fael Illyar: but ... that's just my approach to life in general.
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I see all as teachers & students... [have a RL teacher also...]
    Becka Finesmith: Pema has given me plenty to think about but equally I've "learned" from others experiences (Like Fael for example)
    genesis Zhangsun: I see all people as equal intellectually is irrelevant to me
    Pema Pera: Maxine, you have brought up this "teacher" idea several times now, perhaps you can tell us why that is so important to you?
    genesis Zhangsun: I agree with Gaya
    Wol Euler: hello cal
    Pema Pera: Hi Cal!
    Becka Finesmith: Hi Cal
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey Cal!
    Gilles Kuhn: i dont say people are intelectualy equals but pass a certain level i consider people as such
    Maxine Walden: It just seems to me that when either of you is in the group that the dynamic of the group changes, and we all begin to listen to you
    Stim Morane: Hi Cal
    Caledonia Heron: hi there :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Wol Euler: true, max.
    Stim Morane: it's just our avatars
    Stim Morane: :)
    Maxine Walden: but maybe no one else has that perception
    genesis Zhangsun: I have to say max that my perception has changed with time
    genesis Zhangsun: I think in the beginning I felt as you point out more of a teacher/student dynamic
    Maxine Walden: I do not mind the mentor/teacher role at all, but just felt it important to check out what others are experiencing
    Tarmel Udimo: it feels like we're all explorers some have been exploring longer others less so
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Maxine, what Pema and Stim says makes me stop and think a lot ^^
    genesis Zhangsun: I began to drop teacher/student idea because I found it distracting
    Pema Pera: yes, Tarmel
    genesis Zhangsun: this is about your own exploration as Tarmel says
    Pema Pera: Hi Adelene!
    Wol Euler: hello adelene
    genesis Zhangsun: to find the teacher within
    Tarmel Udimo: so those who have been exploring longer perhaps have had more insights into this form of exploration
    Fael Illyar: Hi Adele :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    genesis Zhangsun: not to get too corny
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey Adelene
    Gilles Kuhn: by exploration you mean reflection ?
    Adelene Dawner: hi all
    Tarmel Udimo: however it is always acknowledged that insight takes place in an instant
    Stim Morane: yes
    Tarmel Udimo: so anyone can then impart it hopefully ie why the group peer thingy works so well
    Maxine Walden: agree, Wol
    Pema Pera: yes, Tarmel, and then we have to figure our what "impart" can possibly mean :-)
    Tarmel Udimo: ahhh I favour the word transmission myself
    Tarmel Udimo: just to add something to the mix :)
    Faenik loves wells!
    Gaya Ethaniel leaves quietly as RL calls...
    Wol Euler: bye gaya
    genesis Zhangsun: What about going back to the idea of starting at the end
    Gilles Kuhn: the end of what ?
    genesis Zhangsun: you said Stim that one of the hallmarks of being awake is that there is no concern with being awake
    Stim Morane: yes
    Stim Morane: no bias
    genesis Zhangsun: I sort of feel like I missed the whole show :)
    genesis Zhangsun: not sure what is happening/happened
    Stim Morane: I feel the same way
    genesis Zhangsun: that is a bit of an exaggeration :)
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Stim Morane: But it's ok
    Stim Morane: And we still haven't addressed the point Giles raised earlier, on "rationality".
    Gilles Kuhn: this concept of awakening can he correspond to intellectual critic stage ?
    Stim Morane: Maybe another time?
    Pema Pera: yes, that is a big topic
    Pema Pera: we can have a discussion here with Gilles and one other person, about that topic
    Pema Pera: it will need a lot of unpacking, and pointing out what it is we are trying to do here
    Gilles Kuhn: gosh i will invite sokal and briquemont ;-)))

    Gilles should by the way do a dialogue on this point perhaps?

    genesis Zhangsun: so about the starting at the end...
    genesis Zhangsun: if we then didn't notice the process happening then what do we notice?
    genesis Zhangsun: that we are living better, treating others well?
    Stim Morane: you are always at the End
    Tarmel Udimo: I agree
    Fefonz Quan: i am confused with that too
    Stim Morane: but there is, for some purposes, the additional issue of not being clear re that
    genesis Zhangsun: what the heck am I doing here then?!
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Stim Morane: the resolution, however, is not that "you succeed" ...
    genesis Zhangsun: ah yes playing :)
    genesis Zhangsun: celebrating
    Stim Morane: maybe ...
    Wol Euler: appreciating.
    Stim Morane: I think to really adddress your question, we would have to be much more concrete about a lot of things.
    Tarmel Udimo: reminding
    Maxine Walden: RL calls, bye all
    Wol Euler: bye maxine, take care
    Stim Morane: yes, i'm in the same boat
    genesis Zhangsun: bye Maxine
    Tarmel Udimo: bye
    Stim Morane: I will have to leave in a minute ...
    Gilles Kuhn is readying torpedoes ;-)
    genesis Zhangsun: ok bye Stim!
    Fefonz Quan: For me it is also (and has been for a while) hard to get in term with the nnnnnotion of (there is nowhere to go/advance"

    Yes, I agree Fefonz it seems we are talking here about a "process" and "how to proceed" and yet at the same time saying there is nowhere to go, nothing to do...I wonder if this is simply a problem of speaking between the relative and absolute or if there is something I am just clueless about completely...probably both :)

    genesis Zhangsun: (in one minute)
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Stim
    Stim Morane: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: bye
    Stim Morane: Bye!
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Pema Pera: I have to leave too, there is the Kira alumni meeting starting in the Kira Cafe, right now, and everyone is welcome to come over there -- we can just continue our discussion if you like -- or not, as the mood strikes us :)
    Wol Euler: bye pema, or maybe see you in a mo.
    Pema Pera: Thank you for coming here, I hope it was as much fun and interesting for you as it was for me :-)
    Fefonz Quan: bye pema
    Gilles Kuhn wavz
    Fael Illyar: Well, time for me to head to bed, it's 0:00 here :)
    Tarmel Udimo: it was always
    Pema Pera waves to everyone
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema
    Fael Illyar: See you later Everyone :)
    Fefonz Quan: good night Fael!
    Wol Euler: goodnight fael
    Wol Euler: take care
    Wol Euler: bye gilles
    genesis Zhangsun: Ok see you all!
    Wol Euler: bey gen
    genesis Zhangsun: going over to the Cafe
    genesis Zhangsun: bye Wol!

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