2008.12.06 19:00 - Hippies, Harmony, and Wu-Wei

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    That evening, we had our first guardian meeting, of the series of four that we have adopted, Saturdays at 7 pm, Sundays at 1 pm, Mondays at 7 am, and Tuesdays at 1 am. Stim was the guardian on call, but I, Pema, provided the comments and put the chat log up.

    I arrived at exactly the same time, and also the same spot, as Adelene. Entangling ourselves for our teleport, we walked over to the seats, but before we could sit down Geo, Stim and Pila arrived as well, soon followed by Doug.

    Pema Pera: Hi Adelene!
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Pema Pera: And hi Geo! and Stim and Pila!
    Pila Mulligan: greetings
    Geo Netizen: Hi Pema
    Geo Netizen: Aaaa Ade !!
    Geo Netizen scratches Ade’s ruff fondly
    Adelene Dawner chuckles and rolls over onto her back.
    Stim Morane: Hi Pila, Geo, Adelene and Pema
    Pila Mulligan: hi
    Pema Pera: wb Pila!
    Pila Mulligan: thanks Pema
    Pema Pera: I don't think you have met Adelene, Geo or Stim yet, Pila
    Adelene Dawner: I met Pila last night. ^.^
    Pema Pera: ah!
    Pila Mulligan: I met Adelene last night, and I am happy to meet Geo and Stim :)
    Geo Netizen: /nods towards Pila
    Stim Morane: :)
    Pila Mulligan: aloha ka kou
    Pema Pera: you're becoming a frequent visitor very rapidly, Pila!
    Pema Pera: Hi Doug!
    Pila Mulligan: well, twice is a 100% increase
    doug Sosa: hi.
    Geo Netizen: Aloha Pila
    Stim Morane: Hi Doug
    Geo Netizen chuckles
    Pema Pera: :)
    doug Sosa: hi all :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi doug
    Pema Pera: ah, my mistake, I thought you had been here today as well, earlier
    doug Sosa: greetings.
    Pila Mulligan: this is the most interesting place, however, Pema
    Pila Mulligan: yes, two days in a row
    Pila Mulligan: Kira yesterday, and this today
    Pema Pera is now getting all confused about times: yesterday and earlier today and now?
    Geo Netizen: Hi Gen

    Genesis joined us, while I gave up trying to figure out dates and times.

    Pema Pera: anyway, here in Japan it is hard to keep track of "evenings" and "mornings" and "previous days" :-)
    Pema Pera: hi Gen!
    Pila Mulligan: yes, SL plays hell with time zones
    Stim Morane: Hi gen
    Geo Netizen: Love you hair today Gen :)
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Pema Hi Geo Hi Stim
    genesis Zhangsun: ty Geo
    Pila Mulligan: hello Genesis
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Pila!
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey doug and Adelene I think I got everyone now? :)
    Geo Netizen just loves the purrrr
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: hm.
    Adelene Dawner: I had an interesting question to bring up... not sure if it suits this group, though.
    Geo Netizen nods with interest
    doug Sosa: if we dealt only with unsuitable questions we might learn even faster :)
    Geo Netizen chuckles

    Adelene opened the conversation with a question, and soon afterwards Riddle arrived, so that there were eight of us in total.

    Adelene Dawner: In the case of something like, oh, telepathy or something - one of those things that's logically assumed not to exist but not really provable either way - what would it take for you to believe that it exists?
    Pila Mulligan: nothing
    Geo Netizen: Are we restricted to the British Empiricist school?
    Geo Netizen: Hi Riddle
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Riddle
    Geo Netizen: Wet feet?
    Pema Pera: Hi there, Riddle!
    Stim Morane: Hi Riddle
    Pila Mulligan: hi Riddle
    Riddle Sideways: hi, this might not work for long
    Riddle Sideways: usual computer is VERY busy
    Pema Pera: well, any phenomenon could be tested . . . .

    Geo brought time into the discussion.

    Geo Netizen: What if time were an undefined term in a reality?
    Pema Pera: what do you mean, Geo?
    Riddle Sideways has lived most of life with time undefined
    Pila Mulligan: Adelene, it seems to me the simplest way to believe things that are logically assumed not to exist would be to experience one or more of them :)
    Geo Netizen: all formulas and equations with a t were undefined
    Pema Pera: undefined as in . . . . ?
    Geo Netizen: How would we -test- things in such a reality?
    Adelene Dawner nods at Pila. "Thing is, most people seem not to believe even what they see, if it's too far outside what everybody agrees on as reality."
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pema Pera: well, the usual way of "testing" presupposes time, yes
    doug Sosa: in the 15th century it was assumed thatthere were the same number of words as things, sicne god made both.
    doug Sosa: the discovery of the americas (and other travel) broke that assumptin apart.
    doug Sosa: Raising the question of representation.
    Geo Netizen: In mathematics, defined and undefined are used to explain whether or not expressions have meaningful, sensible, and unambiguous values. Not all branches of mathematics come to the same conclusion.
    Riddle Sideways: funny idea of representation... if a thing does not have a name/word it does not exist?
    Geo Netizen: But I mean undefined as not meaningful
    Adelene Dawner notes that she's fairly tired, and not going to be able to contribute signifigantly to this - definitely reading tho.
    doug Sosa: and math is internal to itslf. the connection with real things needs to be worked on.
    Pema Pera: in daily life, time certainly is very meaningful though, and mathematical equations with time in them can be tested quite precisely . . .

    The conversation had become semi-multithreaded, but regularly refocused, in an interesting interplay.

    Geo Netizen: Ahhhh daily life means 1L
    Geo Netizen: and also, as an extension 2L
    Geo Netizen: But if .... 0L
    Pema Pera: sure
    Geo Netizen: Time is undefined
    Pema Pera: ah!
    Pema Pera: oh yes, outside the story in which the equations are applied, nothing can be taken for granted, I agree
    Pema Pera: but that doesn't invalidate the equations
    Pema Pera: only their realm of application
    Riddle Sideways: does that realm have to have time element?
    Geo Netizen: If time is just an artifact of 1L, and does not exist in 0L then …
    doug Sosa: rupert sheldrake wrote about dogs who know their owner is coming home. many experiments. I think he has high integrity and videos are amazing. I've done other experiments with him.
    Geo Netizen: The equations have no meaning
    Pema Pera: by and large, nothing has meaning outside the context in which it is defined
    Geo Netizen: Perhaps dogs are more aware of 0L than we are?
    Pila Mulligan: the premise, using Adelene's question, refers to things that are logically assumed not to exist -- logic being the point I would emphasize
    Pila Mulligan: dogs may not be logical
    doug Sosa: what has telepathy yes or no got to do with logic?
    Riddle Sideways: always bothered me the you use unitary divisions
    Adelene Dawner: I think 'assumed' is more important than 'logical', actually...
    Riddle Sideways: what about fractual divisions
    Geo Netizen: unitary?
    Adelene Dawner: it seems more logical, to me, not to assume at all ^.^
    Pila Mulligan: ah, okay, thanks
    Adelene Dawner: But those who do assume, say it's logical to do so.
    doug Sosa: and that gets to PaB.
    Pila Mulligan: by their reasoning
    Pema Pera: and PaB is about experience :)
    Geo Netizen chuckles

    On experience and perception and reasoning.

    Pila Mulligan: people like to justify their opinions with reasoning
    Riddle Sideways: PLAY Being is the key
    Geo Netizen: or support ....
    Pema Pera: we can talk about many things that don't fit into the framework of what is usually assumed, but the most interesting thing is to try to connect it somehow with what we actually experience
    Pila Mulligan: ah, what validates perception :)
    Geo Netizen: perception and experience are not necessarily the same
    Riddle Sideways: perception "tries" to validate itself
    Pila Mulligan: indeed
    Riddle Sideways: when failure it goes to idk
    Geo Netizen: idk?
    Pila Mulligan: i don't know?
    Riddle Sideways: *I don't know
    Geo Netizen nods
    doug Sosa: the pile of books on the coffee table is vary precariously balanced. it makes the whole room feel (experience) off center and out of control, ripe with disasters way beyond that of mere books falling.
    Pila Mulligan: but knowing is an elevation of perception
    Geo Netizen: Knowing is the application of expeirence to perception
    doug Sosa: but knowing can be wrong, whereas perception..?
    Pila Mulligan: I've expereinced the pile of books problem, doug
    Geo Netizen: can be wrong too
    Riddle Sideways: from your perceptions
    Riddle Sideways: it might not bother anybody else
    Riddle Sideways: but you
    Geo Netizen nods

    Various strands of conversation about experiencing, seeing, perceiving.

    Pila Mulligan: perceptions may be wrong, if they are created by illusions
    doug Sosa: the pile of books i bring up as an experience, not as a problem. What I "know" about the room is thrown into vaguness because the experience of the pile leads me to realize i do not know how the room becomes so affected.
    Geo Netizen: but the rounded corners of the tower in the distance …
    Pila Mulligan: maybe it is just anxiety, doug -- it is for me anyway :)
    Pema Pera: We have been talking about "seeing", as in seeing something directly, such as the structure of a math problem -- not just perception or experience
    Geo Netizen: Are a know effect of distance
    Adelene Dawner: 'just'?
    doug Sosa: i don't think much is "just.."
    Geo Netizen: perception is predictably wrong
    Pila Mulligan: simply?
    Pila Mulligan: an aha form of perception Pema? seeing?
    Pila Mulligan: as in 'aha!'
    Geo Netizen: insight?
    Pema Pera: the reason that I like to talk about "appearance" is that it seems like a minimal word to describe the fact that something appears -- without buying into frameworks
    Pema Pera: it could be "aha"
    Pema Pera: it could be "ah, like that" very simply
    Pila Mulligan: simply perceived is easy to believe
    Riddle Sideways: and appearance is a simple word that can only have 2-8 meanings :)
    Pila Mulligan: for me any way
    Pema Pera: we tend to label everything . . . this is a perception, that is an expeirence . . . but all we really know is that there is something -- the presence of appearance, as I like to call it
    Geo Netizen scratched Ade’s ruff and perceives the warmth
    Pema Pera: of course, any word has to be described further to know how it is used

    With Solobill dropping in, there were now nine of us. Soon thereafter, we got a new visitor, staying briefly.

    Geo Netizen: Hi Sol
    Riddle Sideways: hi bill
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Solo!
    Solobill Laville: Hey, all
    Pema Pera: Hi Solo!
    Pila Mulligan: hello Solo
    Stim Morane: Hi Solo
    Geo Netizen: Hi Observator Whybrow ... come join us
    Riddle Sideways: when we have spent enough time together defining our words we shall really be able to talk :)
    Observator Whybrow: thanks
    Geo Netizen: Is there enought time?
    Riddle Sideways: of course
    Geo Netizen: not so sure
    doug Sosa: [Middle English aperen, from Old French aparoir, aper-, from Latin appārēre : ad-, ad- + pārēre, to show.]
    Riddle Sideways: make the time
    doug Sosa: being shows.. i like it.
    Riddle Sideways sits back to watch teh Being shows
    Geo Netizen: Sorry if I’m out of the loop but is this your first time here OBservator?
    doug Sosa: yesterday i tried to sit on the wall with feet in water. i couldn't but a few weeks ago i could. do I fell controlled?
    Observator Whybrow: yes. i was nearby and saw a bunch of people
    doug Sosa: we are surely that :)
    Geo Netizen: Let's chat local Observator
    Solobill Laville: On a pragmatic note, is there is a physical location for any of the terms / definitions we have come up with or use regularly?
    Solobill Laville: Pab Glossary?
    Solobill Laville looks at Gen and smiles
    Riddle Sideways: we have the wiki
    Solobill Laville: But are there terms there?
    genesis Zhangsun: Not really I guess some of these terms are explained in the excerpts

    Riddle also pointed out the lack of rigid definitions.

    Riddle Sideways: we (I certainly) do not have rigid defs for our words
    Pema Pera: I am not sure whether you can define "not-doing" or "wu-wei", for example, in less than 10,000 words . . . .
    Pema Pera: similarly for "appearance" -- any short definition will just beg the question
    doug Sosa: i lke that each time it is slightly different. not codified.
    Pema Pera: we talk about it for many months, and something takes shape
    Pila Mulligan: do you discuss wu wei here?
    Pema Pera: sure, a lot
    Pema Pera: see our wiki
    Pila Mulligan: what a topic :)
    Pema Pera: and do a search, you'll see :-)
    doug Sosa: and then it may come up again - because it is newly an issue.
    Riddle Sideways: I have over a month personally wrestling with what appearance means
    Pema Pera: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    Pila Mulligan: thanks
    Solobill Laville: (that's what I get for coming to the conversation late) :)
    Geo Netizen: wu-wei cannot be defined only expereience IMHO
    Pila Mulligan: I think it can be described
    Geo Netizen: We can try to describe our experiences
    doug Sosa: but not adequately, and that's the play.
    Pema Pera: we can learn to develop a taste
    Geo Netizen nods
    Pila Mulligan: it becaomes vaildated by expereince, for sure
    Pema Pera: yes
    doug Sosa: only to a point.
    Riddle Sideways: but, not the same point for each of us
    Pila Mulligan: yes, and hence the 10,000 words :)
    doug Sosa: more play room.

    Pila took up wu-wei as the next major topic for conversation.

    Pila Mulligan: I would like to ask a question then about wu wei, please (in the tone of playing)
    Pila Mulligan: do you think wu wei relates to non-action?
    doug Sosa: please do:)
    Pema Pera: literally it means that, of course
    Pema Pera: not-doing
    Pila Mulligan: I beg to differ :)
    doug Sosa: ah?
    Pema Pera: but what that means in practice requires a long set of discussions and lived examples
    Observator Whybrow: thanks for the link. I read a bit of it. It sounds like a noble endeavor. i'm going to move on. i want learn the scripting language here. for now at least.
    Pila Mulligan: literally it means 'using action to attain non-action'
    Observator Whybrow: so take care, everyone. and good luck!
    Pema Pera: bye, Observator!
    Pema Pera: that is wei-wu-wei, Pila
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Solobill Laville: bye, Observator
    Pema Pera: abbriviated to wu-wei, literally not-doing
    Riddle Sideways: THE when to act and when not to act
    Geo Netizen chuckles
    Pema Pera: but I agree, the literal meaning is not what is intended
    Pila Mulligan: non-action is the attainment
    Pila Mulligan: wu wei is the path
    Pema Pera: what do you mean with "attain"?
    Geo Netizen: Hmmm non-action .....
    Pila Mulligan: reach, arrive -- obtain
    Pema Pera: how about dropping "obtaining" or "reaching"
    Pila Mulligan: why?
    Pema Pera: perhaps that would be even more "wu-wei"?
    Geo Netizen: and post them on wiki
    Geo Netizen: is this ok with you
    Observator Whybrow: ah, thanks for the heads-up
    Geo Netizen: If you want to know more about the group here's the url
    Observator Whybrow: i doubt i'll stay, though i liked the friendly invitation
    Geo Netizen: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    Geo Netizen nods
    Observator Whybrow: interesting! i still dont' think i'll stay, but i respect the endeavor
    Pila Mulligan: Gi Fu Feng got this all heated up among the hippys of the 70's
    doug Sosa: the chinese origin of wei is a female monkey under claws. Points out that deinitions are not clear and precise, but organic and complex.
    Pila Mulligan: with his Tao Te Ching translation
    Riddle Sideways: there is also the actions that are sooo natural that they are not actions
    Geo Netizen: 9 secs
    Riddle Sideways: yes, TY
    Solobill Laville: Perhaps we are also talking about attachment and the dangers thereof; i.e. to "attainment" and that which is "obtained"?
    Adelene Dawner rumbles. "Sorry to leave in the middle of such an interesting conversation, but I must. See you around, all."
    doug Sosa: wu however starts as a person dancing and get s mixed up with destroying a forest.

    Adelene took off, and we continued talking about wu-wei.

    Solobill Laville: BYe, Ade
    doug Sosa: Wei wu Wei is full of stuff! :)
    Stim Morane: Bye Adelene
    Pila Mulligan: bye Adelene
    Pema Pera: bye Ade!
    Riddle Sideways: my breathe "seems" almost non-action... until you point to a 9-sec
    Riddle Sideways: bye Ade
    doug Sosa: perhaps she takes the question with her.
    Pila Mulligan: all i'm suggesting is that wu wei is not simply passivity or non-action, it is a conscious effort
    Geo Netizen: Bye Ade
    Pila Mulligan: like riding a wave
    Solobill Laville: Wow, I didn't know that Doug, about wu!
    Riddle Sideways: like Being the wave
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pema Pera: interesting, Pila, I completely agree that it is not passivity
    Pema Pera: but does it have to be conscious?
    Pema Pera: when people play in a jam session, how conscious is their play?
    Pila Mulligan: well, assuming consciousness refers to perception :)
    Riddle Sideways: both
    Pema Pera: yet seems like wu-wei sometimes at least
    Pema Pera: yeah, Pila, words are tricky . . . .
    Geo Netizen: wu wei nvolves knowing when to act and when not to act
    Riddle Sideways: I jam alot and it is both
    Pila Mulligan: again, a vestiage of hippy vocabulary, like be conscious man :)
    Pema Pera: yes, and knowing is a kind of seeing, not following rules -- words again :-)
    Riddle Sideways: not all hippy retoric was wrong
    Pema Pera: ah, okay, aware would be an alternative . . .
    Pila Mulligan: viva la revolution
    Pema Pera: any word is fine as long as we understand the intended use
    Geo Netizen chuckles again for the nth time

    Songs in first and second person :-)

    Solobill Laville sings "I, me me, mine"...
    Riddle Sideways: :)
    Pila Mulligan: well, thanks for the play with wu wei
    Solobill Laville points again to the PaB Glossary
    Riddle Sideways sings "Who are you, who who who who"
    Geo Netizen: action that does not involve struggle or excessive effort: I think that covers tonight
    Geo Netizen: :)
    Pema Pera: can you point more visibly, Solo?
    Pema Pera: like with a URL ?
    Solobill Laville: hmmmm
    Solobill Laville: ah
    Riddle Sideways: good night all
    Stim Morane: Bye Riddle
    Geo Netizen: night Riddle
    Pema Pera: bye Riddle!
    Pila Mulligan: bye Riddle
    Pema Pera: the great thing about wu-wei is that there are so many levels -- each time when I thought I "got" it, a little while later I realized that I was still far too much friction-filled
    Pema Pera: it's a challenge for a life time
    Pila Mulligan: it is a harmony thing, for sure
    Geo Netizen is starting to be excessively distracted by Gen's hair
    Solobill Laville dances about architecture
    Pila Mulligan: when Hawaiian ceremonies are in harmony with nature they always end with a rina shower
    Pila Mulligan: rain*
    Solobill Laville: Is the idea of wu-wei not ultimately a simple and practical one?

    And then a poem to complement the songs.

    Geo Netizen: *
    Bright crescent embrace –
    Venus and Jupiter dance
    With old and new moon.
    Pila Mulligan: that would be an example of an attainment in the sense I meant earlier Pema
    Pila Mulligan: I was thinking a similar poem Geo :)
    Pila Mulligan: wu wei is indeed practical and simple Solo
    Geo Netizen: Hi claire
    Geo Netizen: Good to see you:)
    Pema Pera: Hi C laire!
    genesis Zhangsun: sorry my hair is so lovely Geo
    Pila Mulligan: hi Claire
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey Claire!
    Stim Morane: Hi Claire
    Solobill Laville: Hey, Claire
    Claire Beltran: Yes, hello, everyone...
    Solobill Laville things Geo may have hair envy
    Solobill Laville: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Pema Pera: I'd love to hear more about how you have been practicing wu-wei, Pila
    genesis Zhangsun: I have some so spare Geo if you are interested
    Geo Netizen chuckles quietly
    genesis Zhangsun: *to
    Pila Mulligan: to me it is an extension of meditation Pema
    Pila Mulligan: I often try to explain luck this way: you get a loaf of luck, you can eat it all up and it is gone, or you can save it and by some miracle like yeats it will grow

    And another Taoist quote by Geo.

    Geo Netizen: *
    The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
    and acts without effort.
    Teaching without verbosity,
    producing without possessing,
    creating without regard to result,
    claiming nothing,
    the Sage has nothing to lose.
    Pila Mulligan: yeast*
    Solobill Laville: That's kind of what I was getting at, it isn't so important really how it is defined, as much as it is manifested through each of our daily lives
    Solobill Laville: *how
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Geo Netizen: 9 secs
    Stim Morane: Sorry, must leave ...
    Geo Netizen: Bye Stim
    Solobill Laville: BYe, Stim
    Pila Mulligan: bye Stim
    Pema Pera: bye Stim
    Stim Morane: Bye everyone.
    Claire Beltran: Goodbye...
    Pema Pera: yes, Pila, and this comes back to "attaining"
    Pema Pera: and what that could mean
    Pema Pera: when a child smiles at the mother and the mother smiles back, two smiles happen -- but it would perhaps not be the best expression to say that the child attained a smile; but yes, I understand now better how you meant it
    genesis Zhangsun: ]
    genesis Zhangsun: got to go :)
    Pila Mulligan: well, let's try this example -- Barak Obama attained the Presidency
    genesis Zhangsun: bye all!
    Pema Pera: yes, he did
    Solobill Laville: Bye, Gen
    Pema Pera: bye Gen!
    Geo Netizen: Bye Gen ..... glad you came
    Pila Mulligan: bye genesis
    genesis Zhangsun: thanks Geo glad to see you too :)
    Claire Beltran: Goodbye...
    genesis Zhangsun: Bye All!

    In between the comings and goings we continued to talk about wu-wei.

    Pila Mulligan: a musician attains success in a concert more subjectively, by satisfaction with the result, but that is an atrainment nonetheless
    Pema Pera: but if you fail to see something that has been right in front of your nose the whole time -- and finally see that, is that an attainment?
    Geo Netizen: What is missing from the attainment?
    Solobill Laville thinks of Enyadatta
    Pila Mulligan: probably, but the example does not necessarily reflect the effort that seems associated with attainment to me
    Pema Pera: what do you mean, Geo?
    Pema Pera: ah, but that is a crucial point; effort is perhaps still something that can be dropped further
    Geo Netizen: that's misperception
    Geo Netizen: Enyadatta
    Pema Pera: the crucial question is: is "waking up" attainment or dropping misperception?
    Pila Mulligan: but that was my point with wu wei -- it takes a conscious effort
    Pema Pera: perhaps it takes a conscious effort *not* to be in wu-wei
    Geo Netizen: bot are an attainment
    Geo Netizen: -both-
    Pema Pera: and we have learned to do that from an early age
    Solobill Laville: not seeing what's in front of your nose = Enyadatta; attainment or awareness??
    Pema Pera: and yes, we start to counterbalance with conscious effort -- but that may not be the purest approach
    Pila Mulligan: well, from a school of tai chi, it take four and a half ounces of effort
    Geo Netizen: In the end I say Enyadatta attained
    Pema Pera: I must go now. Thank you all for a fascinating discussion!
    Geo Netizen: Bye Pema
    Solobill Laville: hmm, perhaps there we differ, but perhaps also just in definitions, Geo
    Geo Netizen: I should go too .... getting late
    Pila Mulligan: thank you Pema
    Solobill Laville: Yes, night all
    Pila Mulligan: aloha`oe
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Pila Mulligan: bye Geo
    Pema Pera: And I very much appreciate your input, Pila, I hope that my suggestions came across the way I meant them -- as ways to walk around the terms and their experiences, to understand them better together
    Claire Beltran: Goodbye...
    Pila Mulligan: bye Solo
    Pila Mulligan: yes indeed :)
    Pema Pera: Bye Solo and Geo
    Solobill Laville: Bye, Pila, Claire :)
    Pema Pera: And by Pila and Claire!
    Claire Beltran: ...
    Pila Mulligan: bye

    Something tells me we will take up wu-wei again soon . . .
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