2008.12.08 19:00 - Life is All About Surprises

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    Threedee was the guardian that night. He sent me, Pema, the chat log, which I put up. I also provided the title.

    Threedee Shepherd: Hello, Victoro, have you been here before?
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Kirkra
    Victoro Radek: only once
    Kirkra Caerndow: Hello there!
    Victoro Radek: hope im not intrudeing
    Kirkra Caerndow: You never are!
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Victoro Radek: cool
    Threedee Shepherd: no, this is a discussion group that meets daily, although one us two cats are here, so far
    Threedee Shepherd: Have you been here before
    Victoro Radek: ive been here but not during a discussion
    Kirkra Caerndow: Doesnt seem like much is happening though!
    Victoro Radek: Would this be on meditation or zen?
    Kirkra Caerndow: Hmm, and perma pera was wanting me to join this one to talk about something
    Victoro Radek: do you care if i stay
    Threedee Shepherd: neither, both, all, and more
    Threedee Shepherd: one sec and I'll get you some info.
    Victoro Radek: ahhhhhh you speak the entanglement of enlightenment
    Adelene Dawner: You're welcome to stau, Victoro. This is a discussion group, mostly, with an associated meditation practice (optional) and som related... stuff. ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: *welcome to stay
    Victoro Radek: cool
    Victoro Radek: what are these numbers about
    Victoro Radek: above my head
    Kirkra Caerndow: It measures your latent awesomeness
    Kirkra Caerndow: It improves depending on how chillax you are
    Adelene Dawner: We've been working on an autologging system - the chats are logged, by the way, I hope you don't mind - and the numbers are part of that autologging.
    Kirkra Caerndow: Actually I'm not sure D:
    Threedee Shepherd: One day, they will relate to automatic recording. We record and post all of these session, and I hope that is OK with you.
    Kirkra Caerndow: Ooohhh so that explains it
    Victoro Radek: lol
    Bell: *ding*
    Victoro Radek: so
    Threedee Shepherd: Kirkra, I'm not sure whether we have met, but hello no matter what :>
    Kirkra Caerndow: Oh, we have!
    Victoro Radek: since this is my first time.... how do we begin
    Kirkra Caerndow: But hello again, and hello for the first time!
    Threedee Shepherd: My memory is not what it once was, which I can't recall anyway ;D
    Threedee Shepherd: Usually we ask if regular members have had any experiences during the 9-sec "practice" that they want to report
    Victoro Radek: ah
    Victoro Radek: if you speak of meditation
    Victoro Radek: i havent for a while
    Threedee Shepherd: That often starts a discussion about some idea or topic related to "the nature of reality" and our experience of it.
    Victoro Radek: i am interested in what has been said before
    Victoro Radek: what has someone experienced
    Victoro Radek: if you can recall
    Threedee Shepherd: Well, there is an extensive lof and collection of abstracts on the group's website
    Threedee Shepherd: *log
    Victoro Radek: ah
    Threedee Shepherd: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    Swallow Sexton: hey!
    Swallow Sexton: how are you?
    Threedee Shepherd: What are your interests in this "arena" of meditation, perception and reality?
    Threedee Shepherd: And, Kirkra, anything you want to bring up?
    Victoro Radek: well i am out of practice but if you would like to bring up anything i would be happy to
    Victoro Radek: chime in
    Kirkra Caerndow: Hmm... let me think
    Kirkra Caerndow: Not exactly a wide group here tonight
    Threedee Shepherd: Never know who will arrive, when
    Victoro Radek: perception
    Victoro Radek: most preceive that they live their lives
    Victoro Radek: like there will always be another day
    Victoro Radek: they make the mistake
    Victoro Radek: or ignore
    Victoro Radek: that one day they will die
    Kirkra Caerndow: It's not a mistake to believe in the tomorrow
    Victoro Radek: so
    Victoro Radek: would the goal
    Threedee Shepherd: An interesting point came up earlier today at a talk. There are those who question WHETHER there is an external reality. We are interested in consciousness. My question is, can consciousness exist without an external reality. Personally, I do not think it could.
    Kirkra Caerndow: I'd be quite surprised if I didnt wake up!
    Kirkra Caerndow: Well it depends on whether it begins that way
    Kirkra Caerndow: of course it would be impossible to have a consciousness without an external reality to begin with
    K Kirkra Caerndow: since consciousness is defined by perception
    Threedee Shepherd: why are you certain enough to say "of course"
    Kirkra Caerndow: But if, hypothetically, you were to take an established consciousness and divorce it from external reality
    Kirkra Caerndow: Then I believe it could exist
    Kirkra Caerndow: Well you can't say "of course" about anything!
    Kirkra Caerndow: Life is all about surprises
    Kirkra Caerndow: but if you wake up every morning, surprised that you're still alive... well that's not very productive, is it!
    Kirkra Caerndow: Better to live life as it comes, and worry about the details when they crop up
    Victoro Radek: prehaps the goal is to live life like each day is important
    Kirkra Caerndow: It doesn't have to be a goal! There's no need to set standards or achievements
    Kirkra Caerndow: When you boil life down to its essence like that
    Kirkra Caerndow: simply...
    Kirkra Caerndow: Act!
    Kirkra Caerndow: Do!
    Kirkra Caerndow: Experience!
    Kirkra Caerndow: Act!
    Bell: *ding*
    Victoro Radek: act or respond?
    Threedee Shepherd: That sounds like what a 5-year-old odes, and that's not enuf
    Kirkra Caerndow: And hello there, bell
    Kirkra Caerndow: It's not that... it's of course important to think things through
    Kirkra Caerndow: But at the same time, when you are thinking about life as a whole, it's easy to get caught up on details
    Kirkra Caerndow: Worrying can become harmful in its own right! What's important is progress and productivity
    Threedee Shepherd: what do youmean by "think things through"
    Kirkra Caerndow: Well, you could ponder on a topic such as...
    Kirkra Caerndow: the afterlife
    Kirkra Caerndow: say
    Kirkra Caerndow: You could spend your whole life worrting
    Kirkra Caerndow: *worrying
    Threedee Shepherd: Sounds like pondering about the tooth-fairy, given all the data I have
    Kirkra Caerndow: weighing every doubt in your mind
    Kirkra Caerndow: Trying to find the truth
    Tarmel Udimo: hi all
    Kirkra Caerndow: But then you realize... You're mortal! As am I! Who are we to try to find definite answers so quickly!
    Kirkra Caerndow: And hello there!
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Tarmel
    Kirkra Caerndow: And that's why It's better simply to live! There's no need to worry about trivial matters, or about inevitabilities
    Threedee Shepherd: So wait, let me pose this a more practical way...
    Kirkra Caerndow: Hello there Reyez
    Reyez Dawodu: hey
    Threedee Shepherd: Analect 1.1 of Confucious says: To learn something, and to apply it at the right time, Is that not a joy?
    Tarmel Udimo: hi there reyez, back again like me :)
    Reyez Dawodu: im new to this second life..what is this all about?
    Kirkra Caerndow: And that is sage advice in its own right
    Reyez Dawodu: and haha yes
    Kirkra Caerndow: I suppose what I'm getting at is...
    Threedee Shepherd: Hidden in there is purpose, time spent with an eye to the future, development of expertise (which takes time and motivation). All of that is more than just living life as it comes.
    Kirkra Caerndow: So much about life for us humans... Or er... Bird-folk... or fuzzy lion-things
    Kirkra Caerndow: Is about deciphering the unknown
    Kirkra Caerndow: We want to understand things that we dont. We want to learn what we don't know
    Kirkra Caerndow: And while I value knowledge above most other things
    Kirkra Caerndow: It's important not to lose oneself in that pursuit!
    Kirkra Caerndow: There's no need to dwell on death or inevitability
    Kirkra Caerndow: Because it's going to happen! Why not embrace it?
    Threedee Shepherd: On the contrary, on my best days I am totally "lost" in my pursuit, not aware of anything but the being of it.
    Kirkra Caerndow: Oh I don't mean that... I'm still thinking about the first idea that was suggested
    Kirkra Caerndow: Of people not realizing that they might not wake up the next day
    Kirkra Caerndow: The point is that we take chanced at everything. Anything can cause our demise no matter how small or insignificant
    Threedee Shepherd: Of course.
    Threedee Shepherd: Death will happen, and when it does, it will no longer matter to you (except if there IS reincarnation), so why dwell on it?
    Victoro Radek: I was thinking about the selfishness of the matter the lack of importance placed on life
    Victoro Radek: and ignoring each day as important
    Threedee Shepherd: say more why you use the term selfishness that way, please?
    Kirkra Caerndow: Well every second is important! And yes, I would like to know the same
    Victoro Radek: hmm
    Victoro Radek: it seems correct
    Victoro Radek: a over importance on oneself
    Victoro Radek: prehaps
    Kirkra Caerndow: Well the self is a very important thing
    Kirkra Caerndow: Being undervalued might be more common than overvalued
    Kirkra Caerndow: many people who seem selfish do so out of a lack of value for themselves
    Kirkra Caerndow: Self-destructive behaviour is something that is almost natural to us. Even when it doesnt seem obvious
    Victoro Radek: prehaps so but wouldnt it be selfish to burry yourself in sef destruction
    Threedee Shepherd: If that is true, why do you think it is so?
    Kirkra Caerndow: It is! But that's the point!
    Kirkra Caerndow: Selfishness comes from a lack of value for oneself!
    Kirkra Caerndow: At least that is what I would like to argue here today
    Bell: *ding*
    Adelene Dawner: Three, remind me to sic Kirkra on Claire sometime. ^.^
    Kirkra Caerndow: Mmmm? That sounds fun :p
    Threedee Shepherd: Kirkra, I have lost the logic of the argument. could you restate it for me?
    Kirkra Caerndow: Oh, well, let me restate
    Kirkra Caerndow: The idea is selfishness
    Kirkra Caerndow: Thinking of people at their core... Self-destructive behaviour, doubt, low self worth
    Kirkra Caerndow: essentially the first point, people not valuing themselves
    Kirkra Caerndow: Now, what I am arguing is that selfishness, the idea of people valuing themselves highly, stems most often from the opposite
    Kirkra Caerndow: from people not valuing themselves enoug
    Kirkra Caerndow: It's a matter of perception of self versus perception from others
    Kirkra Caerndow: Who is it that most wants others to respect them?
    Kirkra Caerndow: Someone who doesnt feel respect for themselves
    Kirkra Caerndow: They cover their doubts in the feelings of others
    Tarmel Udimo: perahps it is the word selfishness
    Kirkra Caerndow: Rather than simply valuing themselves for their own sake
    Victoro Radek: I was sort of thinking the realization of death would break that cycle of selfishness
    Threedee Shepherd: [19:48] Kirkra Caerndow: Who is it that most wants others to respect them?
    Kirkra Caerndow: Someone who doesnt feel respect for themselves That I get and agree with
    Kirkra Caerndow: realizing that it is inevitable?
    Tarmel Udimo: I am finding it difficult as you use it even though I understand what you are saying
    Adelene Dawner: I think I see where you are getting confused, guys.
    Tarmel Udimo: yes adelene?
    Threedee Shepherd: I was once told, it's the performance that matters, not the applause that follows. Yet humans are SOCIAL primates.
    Adelene Dawner: What Kirkra's talking about is not the obvious, severe kind of low self-esteem. It's a more moderate kind... where one knows that one is worth something, but not secure in that knowledge.
    Kirkra Caerndow: Quite so!
    Kirkra Caerndow: It's the recognition that people crave! Well... Socially adjusted people at least
    Tarmel Udimo: and this why that someone behaves selfishly?
    Kirkra Caerndow: What I'm saying is that selfishness, that coddling of oneself
    Kirkra Caerndow: That desire to help oneself over others
    Kirkra Caerndow: can stem from not valuing oneself enough
    Threedee Shepherd: What if the craving for recognition was selected for and is now built into brain circuitry, in order to facilitate society's success?
    Tarmel Udimo: I'm not sure if its stems from not valuing oneslef enough, but rather not valuing the "self" that is within a;; of us
    Kirkra Caerndow: I wouldn't find that surprising in the least
    Tarmel Udimo: could be three
    Adelene Dawner: Yes - the selfishness is some combination of trying to confirm that they're worth a lot (shown by being able to get a lot) or defend the not-quite-secure idea that they're worth sometihng in general (in the sense of "I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I want it to be, so I'm going to bluff strongly that it is.")
    Kirkra Caerndow: That's just it!
    Kirkra Caerndow: Social insecurity!
    Kirkra Caerndow: If anything, it's our fears and insecurities that drive our society, as much or moreso than any other force
    Tarmel Udimo: ahhh well done adelene the though process has been untangled
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Tarmel Udimo: *thought
    Tarmel Udimo: are you sourrounded by selfishness Kirka?
    Threedee Shepherd: Well if you were always happy and satisfied, what is the motivation to do more?
    Kirkra Caerndow: We all are! But the point is being able to recognize it
    Kirkra Caerndow: if someone were to come up to me, with a straight face, and say "I don't have selfish thoughts"
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Steve
    Kirkra Caerndow: I would think of them as a freak, to be honest
    Kirkra Caerndow: Or a liar
    Kirkra Caerndow: The point is how you express those thoughts in actions
    Tarmel Udimo: is this something you are grappling with yourself?
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi, I'm just here for the punchline tonight
    Threedee Shepherd: Well, again, self-preservation in the most basic sense is built in by selection.
    Tarmel Udimo: hi steve
    Kirkra Caerndow: The punchline is tomatoes
    Kirkra Caerndow rimshots
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Kirkra Caerndow: Welcome, welcome, by the way
    Tarmel Udimo: self-preservation in the most basic sense is built in by selection? can you say more?
    Adelene Dawner: Kirkra's expounding on the topic of selfishness, tonight. ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: Actually Steve, I think the punch line is over at the bar in the cafe
    stevenaia Michinaga: we moving there at 8:00?
    Kirkra Caerndow: Ironic that I'm selfishly diverting the conversation to the matter of selfishness
    Victoro Radek: lol
    Tarmel Udimo: :)
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Victoro Radek: well guys and galls
    Victoro Radek: ive got to be selfish and get going
    Victoro Radek: lol
    Victoro Radek: its been fun
    Kirkra Caerndow: Bye then!
    Threedee Shepherd: I go with what the sage Hillel said: "If i am not for myself, who will be, If I am for myself only, what am I? And if not now, when"
    Victoro Radek: lol
    Tarmel Udimo: ahhh
    Bell: *ding*
    Tarmel Udimo: has anyone spoken to Random yet?
    Threedee Shepherd: no, where is she?
    Tarmel Udimo: she's been standing on the grass for a while
    Tarmel Udimo: ahh now moved
    Threedee Shepherd: bye Tarmel
    Tarmel Udimo: see you all
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Tarmel
    stevenaia Michinaga: night guys, looked busy tonight
    Adelene Dawner: ^^
    Threedee Shepherd: I will end this session (for me) by noting that there are many useful ideas (and philosophies) each seems to fit an instance. However none of them are well enough formed to see how thay might fit together in the multispace of concepts.
    Kirkra Caerndow: A good note to end on as well
    Kirkra Caerndow: I don't believe in single answers or easy solutions
    Threedee Shepherd: 12/08/2008 end of log
    Kirkra Caerndow: Well, good luck out here everyone! I'm back off to first life, how droll
    Adelene Dawner: hehe
    Threedee Shepherd: night
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