2008.12.15 19:00 - The Pragmatic Predator

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    Threedee was the guardian this evening.  Adelene sent me, Pema, the chat log, I put it up and added a title.

    Threedee Shepherd: 12/15/08 7 PM
    Pila Mulligan: hi Adelene and Threedee
    Adelene Dawner: hi Pila ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Pila
    Pila Mulligan: I hope you are both well and happy
    Pila Mulligan: hi Pema
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Pema Pera: Hi Adelene, Threedee, Pila!
    Threedee Shepherd: As much as can be when the temp outside here in Boulder Colorado is 0-defrees F
    Pila Mulligan: wow
    Pila Mulligan: cold
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Pema
    Pema Pera: wow indeed!
    Threedee Shepherd: Last night it got to -20 F
    Pema Pera: never a dull moment in mountain weather . . ..
    Pema Pera: hi Solo!
    Pila Mulligan: man, that is brutal
    Solobill Laville: Hiya, all!
    Threedee Shepherd: Actually, we are on the plain at the edge of the mountains
    Pila Mulligan: hi Solobill
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Solo
    Threedee Shepherd: I suspect we may have a few others who are elsewhere in SL at this moment
    Pila Mulligan: welcome back
    Pema Pera: (^_^)
    Threedee Shepherd: Well, anyone have something they would like to bring up?
    Solobill Laville: hmmm
    Solobill Laville waits for Pila
    Pila Mulligan: does conversation about the mundane, particulalry the effects of the economic crisis, tickle anyone's fancy?
    Threedee Shepherd: Otherwise, I would like to explore "phenomenology" in terms of how we can further "make use of" the udeas of subject, object and the Space in between
    Pila Mulligan: ahh, much more consistent Threedee, and less of a downer
    Pema Pera: we could combine both :-)
    Pila Mulligan: how Pema?
    Threedee Shepherd: interesting thought
    Pema Pera: the sense of helplessness of the subject in the face of the economic crisis
    Pila Mulligan: true
    Pema Pera: the economy seems like an objective truth, almost god given
    Threedee Shepherd: of course, "subjects" are at it core
    Pema Pera: and we seem helpless
    Pila Mulligan: did you have something Solo, when you waited :)
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: -> Threedee
    Solobill Laville: I'm good.... :)
    Pila Mulligan: well, and interesting juxtaposition, but we can just focus on Threedee's idea if you like
    Pila Mulligan: an*
    Threedee Shepherd: it is interesting how simple rules of individual behavior in a large group of like individuals leads to emerging behaviors (like fish schooling) that seem mysterious and imposed from "above" or out there
    Pila Mulligan: phenomenology -- wihtout economy :)
    Threedee Shepherd: economics is like that
    Pila Mulligan: ahh, well, ok
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: So, if I follow the idea I just started, I would ask about "group ohenomenology"
    Threedee Shepherd: *phen...
    Pila Mulligan: how can make use of the ideas of subject, object and the Space in between then?
    Threedee Shepherd: I act in the subject/object space, so do you, and the nextr person and the next, and then our combined actions lead to a "hyper"-phenomena that feeds back onto all of us, without intent
    Pila Mulligan: do you remember Fritz Perl's theory of gestalt?
    Solobill Laville: yes
    PaB Listener Master: Removing "Pema Pera" from list.
    Threedee Shepherd: Which part? I studied it at length
    Pila Mulligan: Pema crashed again
    Pila Mulligan: when the energy expereincned by a group exceeds the apparent sum of its parts
    Solobill Laville: Had a big impact on systems theory
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, because the energy become another "thing" in itself, like the "hand of the market"
    Pila Mulligan: I thought of that when you said group phenomenology
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    Solobill Laville: Three, were thinking generally, or did have a specific example in mind?
    Pila Mulligan: I learned of it not by study but by conversation with a neighbor who was a director at Esalen Instute in the 70's
    Threedee Shepherd: generally, but then I wanted to understand "how" specificity arises and might be channeled
    Solobill Laville: ah, a California guy, Pila?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pema Pera: hi Maxine!
    Solobill Laville: ah, ok, <- Three
    Pila Mulligan: hi Maxine
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Maxine
    Maxine Walden: hi, everyone, sorry to be late
    Solobill Laville: Hi, Maxine
    Pila Mulligan: it is still now
    Threedee Shepherd: np
    Solobill Laville: ah, so there is no late, Pila, I like that!
    Pema Pera: sorry to keep freezing up and dropping out (>_<) -- if someone can send me the chat log so far by IM or such, I can catch up with what I've missed
    Threedee Shepherd: No one air molecule is the wind
    Solobill Laville: Send one to Max too... :)
    Pila Mulligan: well, let me comment on another aspect of group phenmoneology, and see if we can find a common ground for these ideas
    Maxine Walden: please, would appreciate that
    Pila Mulligan: in Hawai`i, as I have mentioned several times to some folks here, the traditional ceremonies are very inclusive of the grup attending
    Pila Mulligan: and one measure of success of a ceremony is whether or ont it ends with a rain shower
    Pema Pera: thanks, Three, for the note!
    Maxine Walden: thanks, 3D
    Pila Mulligan: now this rasies sketpicism usually, but I promise you I have seen to many not to categorize it as group phenomnology
    Solobill Laville: Wow, it would be great to have it rain on the hour at the end of a session then... :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: yes, it owuld
    Pila Mulligan: a kind of gestalt with nautre
    Solobill Laville: Well, the crux of phenomology is the relationship, yes?
    Threedee Shepherd: Being the sceptic, perhaps it is the incipient weather that causes more people to gather
    Pila Mulligan: sorry Threedee, if you had seen it your would probably be more suprised than skeptical
    Pila Mulligan: it is not the ncipient weather
    Pila Mulligan: on a bright sunny day with no cluds there will sudeenly for a few moments be clouds and showers
    Threedee Shepherd: I press: How do you know. My knees know about weather long before I do
    Pila Mulligan: then sunny immediately afte a few mionutes
    Pila Mulligan: :) see description, above
    Pila Mulligan: I appreciate your skepticism, it is the most usual response
    Pema Pera: Hi Jack!
    Jack Trizomu: Hiya
    Pila Mulligan: 'lo Jack
    Adelene Dawner: Most peoples' senses are more sensitive than they have any conscious knowledge of. It doesn't seem umlikely to me at all that people could know-without-knowing when rain is on its way.
    Threedee Shepherd: If you gather at 4:30 PM in Boulder Colorado in the summer, you are VERY likely to have the same experience
    Pila Mulligan: so the scheduling is an untineded coincidece?
    Solobill Laville: Or perhaps part of group consciousness
    Threedee Shepherd: ??
    Pila Mulligan: these are rationailzatins that I well understand but cannot reconcile with my actual expereince
    Pema Pera: Jack, feel free to join us. Have you been here before?
    Jack Trizomu: nop
    Pema Pera: We get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/ -- we record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?
    Jack Trizomu: nope i dont mind at all
    Pema Pera: thank you, and welcome to Second Life -- I see you were "born" today :-)
    Jack Trizomu: lol yep
    Maxine Walden: happy birthday
    Jack Trizomu: Thanks
    Solobill Laville: Well dressed for a new-born ;)
    Solobill Laville: and, yes, welcome
    Pila Mulligan: I just wanted to toss this into thepot, whle the group phenomenology topic simers -- it need not become an ingredient if you wish
    Jack Trizomu: ha i get use to thinks quick i guess
    Threedee Shepherd: [19:23] Pila Mulligan: these are rationailzatins that I well understand but cannot reconcile with my actual expereince. Why Not?
    Solobill Laville: Because they are not "rational"?
    Jack Trizomu: so what are the numbers above my head?
    Pila Mulligan: because the expereinces in many places and many times -- places where I am familair witht he weather patterns -- and the nature of the rain simply do ont lend thmeselves to normal perciptation as the answer
    Threedee Shepherd: How many people in such a gathering?
    Pema Pera: They are debugging numbers for our recording system of the chat logs
    Pema Pera: -> Jack
    Jack Trizomu: o ok
    Pila Mulligan: usually a dozen up -- frequently several dozen
    Jack Trizomu: ill be right back folks
    Pema Pera: sure!
    Threedee Shepherd: I am not arguing that you are "wrong". Rather, coincidence that is anecdotal does not usually convince me of anything.
    Pila Mulligan: when the USS Hawaii, a nuclear submarine, was commissioned recently in Connecticut, a rain shower occurred as the cermeony ended -- Hawai`i;s givernor was there and mentioned to the crowd that this was acommon experience -- but out of context
    Pila Mulligan: it is nt my anecdote :)
    Pila Mulligan: only
    Pila Mulligan: and my gues si sthat if it were being studied by technicians it wold noty happen
    Pila Mulligan: so I cal it magic, for lack of a better term
    Threedee Shepherd: If people becomoe sensitized to an idea, a meme, they are primed to recognize it when it happens, but not to discount all the times it does not happen
    Maxine Walden: so many things/occurrences that we do not understand
    Pila Mulligan: I think discounting the times i t does not happen is a significant part actually
    Pila Mulligan: there is a disitnguishable feeling -- oh fun this wil be to defend
    Jack Trizomu: back
    Pema Pera: wb :)
    Jack Trizomu: thanks
    Threedee Shepherd: Are lack of understanding does not mean there is not a reasonable explanation, of course.
    Pila Mulligan: of course
    Pila Mulligan: or a magic explanaiotn :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Our
    Jack Trizomu: what type of magic?
    Maxine Walden: perhaps magic lies in the realm of that which we do not currently understand
    Pila Mulligan: natural magic, not unnatural :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Why appeal to magic until it becomes necessary. Reality is "magical" enough?
    Pila Mulligan: magic to me is the occureence of the unexpected
    Jack Trizomu: david blaine or mind freak guy is unnatural i assume
    Pila Mulligan: in this type of situation
    Pila Mulligan: well, again, to risk skepticism, my sesne of wu wei is tuned to this type of phenomenon, it is affrimative of hamrny with autre
    Pila Mulligan: harmony*
    Pila Mulligan: nature*
    Pila Mulligan: just like native people calling fish or animals to be eaten
    Pila Mulligan: it seems unlikely, but ...
    Threedee Shepherd: If we had the "slightest" sense of harmony with nature, we would not now be threatened by global warming.
    Pila Mulligan: we who kemosabe :)
    Threedee Shepherd: we the individualsubject-actors who give rise to the group ohenomenology
    Pila Mulligan: ahh, of course
    Pila Mulligan: we did miss some thoughts in rushing to weaken the ozone
    Pila Mulligan: or whtever it was we did
    Jack Trizomu: i think it is a bit wierd that people have been saying we are going into global warming yet we are getting record low tempatures.
    Threedee Shepherd: So, to make a huge leap, perhaps a key activity is to propagate "useful memes" on purpose with intent aforethought?
    Maxine Walden: we paid attention to things other than the earth, such as remaining self-centered and greed driven, re the ozone and other natural 'disasters'
    Threedee Shepherd: It is global average temp that matters, not one local place, I think
    Pema Pera: sorry, everybody -- they're coming to take me away . . . . this time my colleagues for lunch, not a computer crash :-)
    Threedee Shepherd: bye Pema
    Pila Mulligan: have fun Pema
    Solobill Laville: bye, pema
    Pema Pera: see you all soon
    Jack Trizomu: later
    Pema Pera: will do :)
    Maxine Walden: see you, Pema
    Jack Trizomu: hmm seems like it is hard for me to follow your conversation
    Solobill Laville: So, if i may add a cultural component to this, a meme that is "usefelly created" suggests
    Threedee Shepherd: Sorry, we have been doing this long enough that we use both shorthand and have multiple threads going at the same time
    Solobill Laville: both cultural and hegemonic issues
    Solobill Laville winces
    Solobill Laville: Sorry, Jack!
    Solobill Laville: It's kinda like reading a short Chekov play
    Threedee Shepherd: true, but if others can get away with the "big lie" as a meme, why can't I try for the "big truth"?
    Jack Trizomu: a big truth is easier to get away with than a b ig lie
    Maxine Walden: remind me what a 'meme' is?
    Threedee Shepherd: one sec and I'll get it "right"
    Solobill Laville: Depends on the Administration, Jack...
    Solobill Laville: It is from memetic theory, Max
    Jack Trizomu: true
    Maxine Walden: ah, thanks
    Threedee Shepherd: Wikipedia: A meme (pronounced /miːm/) is unit or element of cultural ideas, symbols or practices that transmit from one mind to another through speech, gestures, rituals, or other imitable phenomenon. The term is derived from the Greek word mimema for mimic.[1] Memes are cultural analogues to genes in that they self-replicate and are subject to selective pressures.[2]

    Richard Dawkins coined the word "meme" as a neologism in his book The Selfish Gene (1976) to describe how one might extend evolutionary principles to explain the spread of ideas and cultural phenomena. He gave as examples melodies, catch-phrases, and beliefs (notably religious belief, clothing/fashion, and the technology of building arches).[3]

    Meme-theorists contend that memes evolve by natural selection (in a manner similar to that of Darwinian biological evolution) through the processes of variation, mutation, competition, and inheritance influencing an individual entity's reproductive success.
    Solobill Laville: an outbranch of Darwinism, but broader
    Solobill Laville: If you haven't seen this, it is worth the view: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/s...and_temes.html
    Maxine Walden: great definitions, 3D and Solo, thanks a lot
    Jack Trizomu: hmm
    Threedee Shepherd: Wikipedia is in the midst of a fund-raising drive ^.^ If everyone gave a few dollars....
    Adelene Dawner did.
    Pila Mulligan: crashed
    Solobill Laville: Daggum, what are they gonna with $6M?
    Solobill Laville: wb, *ila
    Jack Trizomu: sorry guys this is to confusing for me to understand.. i think it is time for me to go
    Pila Mulligan: bye Jack
    Solobill Laville: Sorry, Jack, you could catch up quicker than you think!
    Threedee Shepherd: Jack, when you have been around a while, come back
    Solobill Laville: Have fun!
    Maxine Walden: thanks for dropping by, Jack. try us again maybe...
    Jack Trizomu: k well ill probably be around and will be back sometime later.
    PaB Listener Master: Removing "Jack Trizomu" from list.
    Threedee Shepherd: A newborn at PaB is like dropping a first grader into a quantum mechanics class
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Maxine Walden: yes, nice metaphor 3D
    Solobill Laville: and yet here we sit by the "welcome lawn"...
    Maxine Walden: right, not sure what to say about that, nothing 'quippy' comes to mind
    Solobill Laville: I'm still a bit unclear on the idea of "group phenomenology"...seems to be singular perspective-type thing
    Threedee Shepherd: Well perhaps something will if you quip trying :>
    Pila Mulligan: as a fact, however, it explains something I wondered -- why so many newbies arrive here
    Maxine Walden: (groans )
    Solobill Laville: WEll, the ones who walk here....are random....but the ones who TP here have searched
    Threedee Shepherd: They look at the map and see a concentration of dots and are curious why so many people are there
    Maxine Walden: and so come to check out the party...
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    Pila Mulligan: and leave scratching their virtual head
    Maxine Walden: right, Pila
    Threedee Shepherd: Solo, I am suggesting that no fish "intends" to form a school of fish or to direct its actions, yet together, following simple individual rules, the school emerges, and turns oout to be beneficial defense against predators
    Pila Mulligan: = group phenomeno :) ?
    Pila Mulligan: n*
    Pila Mulligan: non*
    Pila Mulligan: whatever :)
    Threedee Shepherd: In fact, the newbie conversation a moment ago may be an example. An obvious rule/meme for a newbie trying to find the action is to GO where the dots are concentrated. that is not why we concentrate here at PaB, but it does attract newbies
    Pila Mulligan: now wasn't diversity in a group an essential element of the gestalt therory
    Solobill Laville: OK, so if phenomenology is about the "thing that is the relationship" between subject and object
    Solobill Laville: you are suggesting there is also a "group" meaning given to that interplay? I can accept that...but
    Solobill Laville: I still wonder if you had a specific example in mind that would be helpful to explore
    Solobill Laville: in terms of a group
    Threedee Shepherd: No, that is what I hoped we might sneak up on ;>
    Solobill Laville: and I thought you may present it... ;)
    Threedee Shepherd: My ho-pe was that our discussion might be like brainstorming
    Threedee Shepherd: Or that a meta-meme might "emerge"
    Pila Mulligan: what is meme please?
    Solobill Laville: ah, Pila missed that
    Pila Mulligan: oui
    Threedee Shepherd: Wikipedia: A meme (pronounced /miːm/) is unit or element of cultural ideas, symbols or practices that transmit from one mind to another through speech, gestures, rituals, or other imitable phenomenon. The term is derived from the Greek word mimema for mimic.[1] Memes are cultural analogues to genes in that they self-replicate and are subject to selective pressures.[2]

    Richard Dawkins coined the word "meme" as a neologism in his book The Selfish Gene (1976) to describe how one might extend evolutionary principles to explain the spread of ideas and cultural phenomena. He gave as examples melodies, catch-phrases, and beliefs (notably religious belief, clothing/fashion, and the technology of building arches).[3]

    Meme-theorists contend that memes evolve by natural selection (in a manner similar to that of Darwinian biological evolution) through the processes of variation, mutation, competition, and inheritance influencing an individual entity's reproductive success.
    Maxine Walden: I am sorry, guys, I have to go and feed my RL stomach. Thought I could last but my hunger is distracting me so much I cannot really concentrate. I will look forward to reading the blog
    Maxine Walden: see you all
    Pila Mulligan: bye Maxine, have a nice meal
    Threedee Shepherd: Bye Maxine
    PaB Listener Master: Removing "Maxine Walden" from list.
    Solobill Laville: Night, max
    Pila Mulligan: ... reading :)
    Pila Mulligan: reminds me of John Trudell
    Threedee Shepherd: Solo, my deeper intent is to try and see if there are "practical" consequences of the ideas inherent in Phenomenology
    Threedee Shepherd: Who is he?
    Pila Mulligan: an American Indian poet, he speaks a lot of the genetic memory of his peoploe
    Threedee Shepherd: "culture"
    Solobill Laville: THis is inerested too, Pila: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/s...and_temes.html
    Pila Mulligan: "We being who we are today, however we landed in this reality, whoever we are today, we carry the genetic experience of our lineage from the very beginning. It’s encoded in the DNA, it’s like genetic memory. It’s something about the experience of the journey we have it in us. But somewhere within our genetic memory, somewhere hidden in there, we all come from a people; each of us comes from a people that knew they lived in a spiritual reality. And because we lived in a spiritual reality every one of our ancestral peoples understood we have a responsibility. We were responsible for the past, the future and for the present. We understood that all things had being. "
    Solobill Laville: That is profound, and lost to a great extent
    Threedee Shepherd: I suggest it is a longing for something that never existed.
    Threedee Shepherd: And I would be bringing up last night's "topic" if I asked, "What is a spiritual reality?"
    Solobill Laville: For some people there is none, because there is nothing that is not
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: does that incolude the tooth fairy and Santa?
    Pila Mulligan: "We see your tech no logical society devour you before your very eyes we hear your anguished cries exalting greed through progress while you seek material advances the sound of flowers dying carry messages through the wind trying to tell you about balance and your safety"
    Solobill Laville: It is like asking a panda what is food?
    Solobill Laville: only one answer
    Threedee Shepherd: Ancient Greeks, "founders" of the democratic state, had slaves ;>
    Pila Mulligan: so did Jefferson :)
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    Solobill Laville: And Churchill said, Democracy is the worst form of government
    Solobill Laville: except for everything else
    Threedee Shepherd: Tell me when exactly WAS the spiritual golden age, and where?
    Pila Mulligan: well, spiritual reality is astate of mind perhaps, that exists among those whose perceptions allow them to beleive it
    Threedee Shepherd: so was the "ether"
    Solobill Laville: By sheer quantity, Three, this is
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    Pila Mulligan: what would the Dalaia Lama be wihtout reincarnation?
    Threedee Shepherd: a wise and compassionate person
    Pila Mulligan: but lacking some of the tradition
    Threedee Shepherd: not if the position was hereditary
    Pila Mulligan: isn't it :)
    Solobill Laville: he is more powerful as wise and compassion that as believing in reincarnation
    Solobill Laville: *ate
    Pila Mulligan: hi claire
    Threedee Shepherd: I have no position on reincarnation (having not yet, to my memory, died) yet I still respect that the DL is a profound personage.
    Solobill Laville: Heya, Claire
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Claire
    Solobill Laville: I've seen him, and he is ;)
    Claire Beltran: ^-^/
    Pila Mulligan: I was just raising that traditional belief as an example of spiritual awareness among thos believing they have expereinced it
    Pila Mulligan: or 'spiritual awareess' to preserve the skepticsm
    Threedee Shepherd: and I have been crankily pointing out that mere believing sdoes not make it so
    Pila Mulligan: indeed, nor doe sit deny it
    Pila Mulligan: we may not believe the earth is flat, but we stil fram it much the same
    Pila Mulligan: farm*
    Solobill Laville: The "tool" is effort, and the "mechanism" is experience
    Threedee Shepherd: standoff, and then I resort to pragmatism, as in, what does believing add to the explanation of X?
    Solobill Laville shakes his head and points to his last comment
    Claire Beltran: I think I must go...
    Pila Mulligan: explanation resides mostly in sceince and technique
    Solobill Laville: That is a permanent Mexican standoff
    Pila Mulligan: bye Claire
    Solobill Laville: Ah, me too soon as well Claire
    Threedee Shepherd: explanation is predictive "good enough"
    Adelene Dawner: 'night, Claire.
    Threedee Shepherd: bye Claire
    Solobill Laville: Is there explanation in technique?
    Pila Mulligan: bye Solo, when the time comes :)
    Pila Mulligan: oh, too soon
    Solobill Laville: *soon*
    Pila Mulligan: yes, peole explain techniques -- as theyunderstand them
    Threedee Shepherd: technique inherently biases towards some explanation more than other
    Pila Mulligan: but techniques can be imitated and learned as well
    Solobill Laville: Technique is how, experience is what
    Pila Mulligan: tradtional polynesia navigation was profooundly technical, but was learned by imitation
    Threedee Shepherd: true, but if the only technique you know is how to wield a hammer, you have a hell of a time using screws
    Solobill Laville: That is my point as well, Three
    Threedee Shepherd: no argument
    Solobill Laville: I guess my point is that techniques doesn't really explain, in my mind
    Solobill Laville: But so, neither does experience :)
    Threedee Shepherd: agreed, Pila re navigation, which used a "local" type of celestial navigation
    Pila Mulligan: and lots of othe rticks :)
    Pila Mulligan: other tircks*
    Solobill Laville: hehe quick fingers
    Pila Mulligan: receomend: An Ocean in Mind
    Threedee Shepherd: well Solo, I agree, and then go off and try to be pragmatic anyway--hey is that predator or prey
    Pila Mulligan: Naino Thompson, author
    Pila Mulligan: Nainoa*
    Threedee Shepherd: thx
    Pila Mulligan: predator solo?
    Pila Mulligan: or 3d sorry
    Threedee Shepherd: The model is not the thing, of course.
    Threedee Shepherd: It is useful to be able to predict whether that movement in the grass is my prey, or me its.
    Adelene Dawner: The pragmatic predator doesn't chase things he can't catch... the pragmatic prey... I dunno, who knows why prey does what it does, but I assume they can be pragmatic somehow.
    Pila Mulligan: ahh, thnaks
    Pila Mulligan: it prays
    Threedee Shepherd: hehehe
    Threedee Shepherd: Pragmatic prey never stays long inone spot concentrating on eating
    Pila Mulligan: and swims in schools
    Threedee Shepherd: or herds
    Solobill Laville: like a phenomological group!
    Solobill Laville: There full circle :)
    Pila Mulligan: there, we have it :)
    Threedee Shepherd: exactly!
    Pila Mulligan: the mem of survivial
    Pila Mulligan: e*
    Solobill Laville: And with that, good night! (cue Tonight Show music)
    Threedee Shepherd: prey animals herd, predators have small packs, or stalk individually
    Pila Mulligan: g'nite Solo
    Threedee Shepherd: Thx Solo
    Solobill Laville: Night, everyone
    PaB Listener Master: Removing "Solobill Laville" from list.
    Threedee Shepherd: Thanks, Pila, it has been both fun and interesting, g'night
    Pila Mulligan: yes, see you next time
    Pila Mulligan: bye Adelene
    Adelene Dawner: 'night, Pila

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