2008.12.16 01:00 - It's Okay to Dream

I, Pema, was the guardian that night. It was one of the four weekly guardian sessions

Susi Alcott: hi Pema
Pema Pera: Hi Susi and Fael!
Susi Alcott: ah...RL call
Fael Illyar: This Guardian meeting slot seems to end up rather not so popular :)
Pema Pera: nice dress, Fael!
Fael Illyar smiles 'Thank you.'
Pema Pera: Most 1 am sessions are relatively less attended, I think
Pema Pera: though occasionally there is a sudden influx
Fael Illyar: Yes, that they are :)
Fael Illyar: Yes, it's interesting how it tends to be either no-one or everyone at once :)
Pema Pera: :)
Fael Illyar: (if we allow some exaggeration)
Pema Pera: (allowed :)
Fael Illyar: well, in any case, certainly seems like people somehow know when there's going to be more people here and all crowd here on the same day :)
Pema Pera: who knows what they know . . . :)
Fael Illyar: Yes, people often have a tendency to know things that surprise me at least :)

Fael brought up the topic of automatically logging chat transcripts.

Fael Illyar: did you think about what I said about who the autologger should agree to give the log of the session to?
Pema Pera: well, I would have to know more about the whole situation . . . you gave me some hints the other day, but since we were in a meeting, I couldn't easily see the whole picture
Pema Pera: Have you talked with Wol about it?
Fael Illyar: I'm myself still thinking that any guardians present at the meeting could get it but I'd also want to make it so that they need to click the autologger to get it.
Pema Pera: It occurred to me that it might be nice for a guardian coming in half-way to be able to read the preceding discussion in that session -- or did you mention that already?
Fael Illyar: Yes, that'd be useful but the current way it's implemented doesn't really go along with that so well.
Fael Illyar: the listeners currently only send things t the database when their buffer is close to full. (Even though I did try to persude Wol to also have a timer for it)
Pema Pera: well, the single most important thing is to free guardians from having to post things by hand.
Fael Illyar: Yes :)
Pema Pera: for their sake and for my sake:
Pema Pera: I spend many hours each month chasing chat logs . . . .
Fael Illyar: Well, it'll still be by hand but a lot less work.
Susi Alcott: back
Susi Alcott: roll the lines
Fael Illyar: if you leave comments out, it's just cut&paste, pretty much.
Pema Pera: was it really not possible to do it fully automatically?
Pema Pera: Fael, we are dealing with "human beings" . . . :-)
Fael Illyar: possible, probably, but no-one is feeling up to figuring out how since the documentation isn't so good about it.
Pema Pera: somehow what seems simple to one person can be an enormous challenge for others . . . .
Fael Illyar: (as far as I know)
Fael Illyar: Well, any guardian that is used to posting the logs and does post the logs will find it an enormous timesaver :)
Pema Pera: Sorry, Susi, tech talk!

Tech talk it was, but an important technical topic, with important implications for the way the sessions are logged.

Pema Pera: As for me, I am happy to leave it to you and Wol to find a solution that you are both happy with -- and if you would like to have more opinions, we can hold a meeting including a few others
Susi Alcott: ok
Fael Illyar: I also do prefer having someone actualy look through the logs before posting.
Fael Illyar: At least until the autologger automatically handles asking for permission to post.
Pema Pera: Susi, we are talking about recording chat logs
Susi Alcott: yes ?
Pema Pera: and making life easier for guardians-on-call, who are currently posting everything by hand
Fael Illyar: As in, getting the chat logs from the logs their SL client keeps, cleaning it up by hand and then cut&pasting it to the wiki.
Susi Alcott: aha
Pema Pera: But we shouldn't talk more about that here -- that's a technical problem to be solved off-line
Susi Alcott: yes
Fael Illyar: There's an administrative portion of it that kind of belongs here I think :)
Pema Pera: Susi, do you have any observations, questions, suggestions so far about Play as Being?
Susi Alcott: hi Crusty
Pema Pera: Hi Crusty!
Fael Illyar: Hi Crusty :)
Crusty Goldshark: hi everyone - sorry your on time . . .
Susi Alcott: trying to learn by time
Crusty Goldshark: oops - sorry I am late :)
Pema Pera: (yes, Fael, but with only a few people here we would have to repeat the discussion many times -- better to do it on the email group, I think, or between individuals who have to implement it)
Pema Pera: everyone comes and goes here constantly, Crusty
Fael Illyar: Hi Tarmel :)
Pema Pera: Hallo Tarmel!
Susi Alcott: hi Tarmel
Crusty Goldshark: hi tarmel
Pema Pera: good evening!
Tarmel Udimo: hi all

Crusty and Tarmel joined us.

Tarmel Udimo: lost track of time, sorry i'm late
Pema Pera: nono, there is no early or late here :)
Pema Pera: the idea is to drop by whenever you like
Tarmel Udimo: smiles
Pema Pera: although of course you may fall into the middle of a discussion
Pema Pera: but that's not the case right now
Tarmel Udimo: ok
Pema Pera: is there anything you'd like to talk about?
Fael Illyar smiles to Crusty.
Tarmel Udimo: well in fact i was thinking about all the responses to your description of PAB
Tarmel Udimo: and was surprised at the responses
Crusty Goldshark: favourite meditation practices (longer than 9 seconds allowed)?
Susi Alcott: lol
Susi Alcott: sry
Pema Pera: we don't forbid any practice, Crusty
Pema Pera: surprised in what way, Tarmel?
Crusty Goldshark: :) no I relaise that I was asking about others fav practice if anything - I can start with one I would to share?
Tarmel Udimo: the way people felt that their practises were being threathen...
Crusty Goldshark: like to share . . .
Pema Pera: did you get that impression, Tarmel? Can you be more specific?
Crusty Goldshark: It is a metta Ray practice . . .
Pema Pera: I am not sure whether anyone felt threatened
Crusty Goldshark: I am only threatened by my own future enlightenment . . .
Crusty Goldshark: Get behind me Buddha!
Pema Pera: it seemed to sort of escalate: what if someone would misunderstood this or that
Pema Pera: but I didn't hear from any individual who felt this his or her practice was threatened
Susi Alcott: that's always the possibility
Crusty Goldshark: I am not enlightening EVERY blade of grass - find another sucker!
Fael Illyar: at least that wasn't said directly... who knows if the ones who commented on the possibility actually initially felt like that.
Tarmel Udimo: I will go back to the transcript and make comment
Tarmel Udimo: so I can be clearer
Susi Alcott: in 'my world' nobody can be all the time the guardian of words
Pema Pera: sure, especially not here, in live chat

Tarmel brought up a central topic for Play as Being: that we have no leaders.

Tarmel Udimo: the other thing I was thinking about was can we have groups without a leader (s)
Pema Pera: science is an example, worldwide
Susi Alcott: ...sad that specially such persons would need help who blaims the speaker...
Pema Pera: what do you mean, Susi?
Fael Illyar: not completely, no. I'd say. But we can have groups without explicit static leaders.
Crusty Goldshark: How about Anonymous that fights the scientologists?
Fael Illyar: meaning, there aways is someone doing the tasks of the leader but that someone can change.
Susi Alcott: meaning that because here happenes much such that could help ppl even to think
Fael Illyar: depending on what members of he group feel like.
Fael Illyar: and of course on whether there is someone willing to do those tasks.
Tarmel Udimo: sorry I had to leave for a min
Tarmel Udimo: I like your description fael
Susi Alcott: but such ppl who dont listen with open mind and noticing that freedom
Fael Illyar: I think I read somehere that there was some research on how such groups operate and that there are key people, who, if removed from the group, would lead to group "performing" much less.
Susi Alcott: might feel threaten and go away
Tarmel Udimo: yes as in the case of pema
Susi Alcott: even specially such ppl would need the help from this group
Pema Pera: yes, Susi, but we can't force anyone :-) I see your point, though
Fael Illyar: Yes, as it is, removing Pema from PaB would indeed make a noticeable difference.
Tarmel Udimo: smiles
Pema Pera is thinking about taking a looooon vacation
Pema Pera: *looooong
Crusty Goldshark: I preferred the Looon vacation - was going to volunteer . . .
Fael Illyar: you might return from it to find no group left ;)
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: :)
Tarmel Udimo: I don't have problems with an individual leading, in fact I'm not convinced groups can really exist without one
Fael Illyar: well, perhaps exaggeration but ...
Tarmel Udimo: espcailly if they are seen more as someone visioning the process
Crusty Goldshark: Depends on the composition and agenda of individuals . . .
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Fael Illyar: yes, as long as that individual is what the group members accept as the leader.
Fael Illyar: So it's a voluntary leader instead of dictator.
Tarmel Udimo: okay that makes sense

I brought up two examples of enterprises without a central leader.

Pema Pera: my role model examples are science and the software open source movement
Pema Pera: in both cases there is no leader
Tarmel Udimo: and yet someone has to make choices
Pema Pera: but some people can have more ideas and/or energy
Tarmel Udimo: yes visioning the process
Pema Pera: but the larger the group becomes, the less important any single individual
Fael Illyar: many open source projects have a concensus based decision making. Everyone who wants to can participate in discussing.
Pema Pera: very different with a church with a pope, or a country with a president
Crusty Goldshark: Pema for Pope!
Pema Pera didn't hear that
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Crusty Goldshark: PEMA FOR POPE!
Fael Illyar: and generally, concensus is reached before decision is made.
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Fael Illyar: _/!\_
Pema Pera: perhaps for one minute, and then I would use my papal powers to abolish the institution of Pope
Fael Illyar smiles.
Tarmel Udimo: I'll second that
Susi Alcott: smiles
Pema Pera: yes, Fael, that would be ideal
Crusty Goldshark: Any leader willing to step down is worth following. Pema For POPE!
Susi Alcott: :/!\_
Pema Pera: I stand no chance to be elected, Crusty :)
Crusty Goldshark: Hail Pem full of Grace Blessed art thou amongst Popes etc . . .
Pema Pera: like they say, anyone who wants to be president, shouldn't be . . . .
Crusty Goldshark: Yes
Fael Illyar: (Pema, I doubt Crusty minds that "insignificant" detail )
Pema Pera: My expectation for this group is that in due time we will have several people playing more and more mentor roles . . . but we'll see how everything evolves naturally
Pema Pera: I hope that in the coming month me writing my book will help -- that way it will be clearer and more open what my "agenda" is and then others can compare that with their "agendas" and perhaps write their own essays/papers/book

Crusty followed up on the open source notion, mentioned earlier.

Crusty Goldshark: I belong to an OPen Source group - Puppy Linux - using it now - the Leader has just stepped down but was the benevolent dictator through doing most of the work - only too pleased when others join in . . .
Pema Pera: I'm using "agenda" here is a rather tentative way, I really should say vision or approach
Crusty Goldshark: What book?
Pema Pera: Yes, Crusty, that was the power of Linus too . . . as opposed to say Richard Stollman
Crusty Goldshark: Richard Stallman is mad . . .
Crusty Goldshark: I like him
Pema Pera: http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Book Crusty
Crusty Goldshark: thanks Pema
Pema Pera: I admire him :)
Tarmel Udimo: I I think both you and Pema have alluded to the fact that will always be someone
Pema Pera: and an interesting person to talk with
Tarmel Udimo: who does more of the work the manifesting so to speak and in fact until we can do group telepathy
Fael Illyar: so ... mad ... as in believes strongly in his ideals?
Tarmel Udimo: this will always be the case
Fael Illyar: and working to bring the world closer to those. Dedicated himself to it?
Pema Pera: yes, Tarmel, and the main point is to limit the influence of the more active people to making suggestions, not to insisting on them being followed up
Tarmel Udimo: okay point taken
Pema Pera: But it is sometimes easy to be swayed by enthusiasm of others, that I know too :)

Crusty gives an interesting definition of madness.

Crusty Goldshark: Mad as in exhibing destructive behaviour (for himslef and others)
Fael Illyar: Crusty, isn't that an interpretation?
Tarmel Udimo: looking up Richard Stallman
Pema Pera: I would call him a fundamentalist -- and not necessarily in a negative way, but yes, self-limiting
Crusty Goldshark: Richard Stallman exhibits personality traits that are benficial and some that are detrimental to him and his relationships and he aknowledges this. SO he is not happy with his behaviour. So his interpretation is the guiding force here . . .
Pema Pera: fundamentalists are fundamentally self-limiting :)
Fael Illyar: well, I'm not so sure about that "not happy" part ... or did he say that too?
Crusty Goldshark: Mad is not a bad thing - it is a limitation - it may have benefits but overall the person may be out of balance. SOmetimes we need crazies and extremists but that does not mean they are at peace or in the best place . . .
Fael Illyar: perhaps that's the kind of person that's needed to get changes to happen?
Crusty Goldshark: There is an interview with Richard Stallman somewhere - probably a few . . .
Fael Illyar: Too many to count :)
Tarmel Udimo: yes lots on Utube
Crusty Goldshark: Indeed - the Buddha was considered mad and Jesus and St Ignatius (Richard Stallman)
Crusty Goldshark: Sufi Saints often described themselves as mad (if the world is sane) then clearly they are out of step . . .
Fael Illyar: Yes .. that's one way of defining it :)
Crusty Goldshark: People often assume mad is a value judgement when it may be a description of outer behaviour and inner rest or turmoil
Crusty Goldshark: Must be time for my injection
Crusty Goldshark: CU you guys ;)
Fael Illyar: See you later Crusty :)
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Tarmel Udimo: bye crusty

Crusty left, and Claire entered.

Pema Pera: I enjoyed these discussions, we touched on some very fundamental points
Pema Pera: Hi Claire!
Fael Illyar: Hi Claire :)
Tarmel Udimo: hi claire
Claire Beltran: Pema?? Fael?
Susi Alcott: hi Claire
Claire Beltran: ^-^/ Hi, all!
Pema Pera: Do you think, Tarmel, that the example of science as being leaderless is valid, in comparison to what we are doing here?
Pema Pera: even though science has a system of degrees, etc, if someone without a degree would make a really important discovery, and it would be recognized as being important, then the lack of degree would definitely be no barrier
Tarmel Udimo: I don't know enough about science to be able to answer that, from the outside it seems as though
Pema Pera: in that sense it is really meritocratic, at least in principle
Tarmel Udimo: okay I am sure there are some people working like that
Pema Pera: but yes, in practice any human institution is far less than perfect . . . .
Fael Illyar: although, would seem to me that Open Source movement in general would be a bit more meritocratic.
Pema Pera: . . . but at least if the principles are sound, people are able to protest and invoke the principles
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Pema Pera: yes, Fael
Pema Pera: and I think science is moving more into that direction

About the future of universities.

Pema Pera: when universities will dissolve into cyber space . . . . perhaps science will become more like open source
Fael Illyar: most likely, yes
Pema Pera: traditional universities don't have long to live, I think, perhaps a few decades at most
Fael Illyar: if they play their cards right, they'll survive but in diminished role.
Pema Pera: just as encyclopedias are passe now, so universities will be
Susi Alcott: nice for me to hear that thought
Pema Pera: yes, Fael, but more likely they won't resist the temptation to hang on . . .
Fael Illyar: libraries are obsolete in practise already.
Pema Pera: yes, they are places to log into the internet :)
Fael Illyar: with Google's system with the millions of books.
Fael Illyar: but what they do have left is expertise in cataloging information.
Susi Alcott: just because I happen to know very sad behavier from ppl in certain University against one open minded scientist who's huge work they distroyed
Pema Pera: many companies have half of their employees working remotely -- universities will follow
Pema Pera: barriers will be lower, like they are here in SL, and we'll see how that will work out.
Pema Pera: Yes, Susi, quality control will become a very interesting issue
Tarmel Udimo: yes I just reaslise because I work independently I am less curtailed than say someone who works 9-5 or in a university
Tarmel Udimo: soin a sense my need to have a more open system is less as i have it all the time
Pema Pera: many people would have insisted that Wikipedia cannot possibly be of high quality, yet it is, reasonably high at least
Fael Illyar: Yes, no need to avoid doing/saying certain things because it'd endanger your livelyhood.
Tarmel Udimo: yes one still has to placate alot....
Fael Illyar: The latest studies comparing wikipedia to britannica I saw said that the quality is about the same.
Pema Pera: the essence seems to be peer groups, peer consensus about quality
Pema Pera: individuals writing blogs are by and large completely untrustworthy
Pema Pera: but groups writing wikipedia and such are much more so
Fael Illyar: hugely dependant on the writer though
Pema Pera: sure, "by and large"
Pema Pera: but even great writers are likely to make more errors than a group with many eye balls, as they say

Fael's Japanese practice may have triggered her following typo.

Fael Illyar: great writers will naturally correct a group that will do that.
Fael Illyar: collect
Pema Pera: hahaha
Pema Pera: that was a great typo
Fael Illyar: yes :P
Tarmel Udimo: smiles
Pema Pera: It will be very interesting to see whether PaB will grow into something like a wikipedia -- that would be wonderful
Fael Illyar: perhaps not the same scale but ... :)
Pema Pera: why not?
Pema Pera: (^_^)
Pema Pera: half-serious remark
Tarmel Udimo: its okay to dream
Claire Beltran: How so, Pema?
Pema Pera: the serious half is: it will depend on how much we focus on the "9 sec" which is really universal
Claire Beltran: I'm beginning to regret dropping into this so late.
Pema Pera: or on more specific notions of Being and Play as Being
Pema Pera: oh, np Claire!
Fael Illyar: at least you dropped in :)
Pema Pera: Almost anyone could be having fun with short breaks in their life -- that is universal
Pema Pera: but relatively few will have the patience to figure out what Being might be :-)
Fael Illyar: that is ... if there's a point to figuring it out ;)
Pema Pera: I'll put the log up soon, Claire, so you can read it later
Pema Pera: okay, letting Being be a resource for them :)
Pema Pera: letting Being heal
Tarmel Udimo: given that it is being disseminated in SL it will eventually have universal appeal
Fael Illyar kind of sees Being as limitless possibilities lately.
Pema Pera: we'll see, Tarmel :)
Pema Pera: well, amidst all the limitless possibilities, I'm going to choose the one of getting some dinner :-)
Pema Pera: great talking with y'all !
Fael Illyar: See you later Pema :)
Tarmel Udimo: each moment is limitless and filled with potential
Tarmel Udimo: see you pema
Pema Pera: see you all soon again!
Susi Alcott: see you later Pema
Pema Pera: yes, Tarmel, each moment is all moments, eternity . . . . .
Pema Pera: nothing to reach for, no need and no possibility even
Claire Beltran: Goodbye, Pema~
Pema Pera: bye Claire!
Pema Pera: bye all!