2008.12.16 19:00 - Imposing Fantasy Worlds

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera, but he didn't make it to the session. The comments will by whoever wants to write them.

    NOTE! This log seems to be missing Pila. Autologger apparently failed to record his lines. If one of the participants happens to have those, please replace the log with one that has them. Thank you.

    Geo Netizen: Hi Pila
    Geo Netizen: Quite night?
    Geo Netizen: Hi Claire ..... so good to see you :)
    Geo Netizen nods towards Susi
    Claire Beltran: Oh, hello!
    Geo Netizen: Hi Ade :))))
    Adelene Dawner: Hi, all ^.^
    Geo Netizen scratches Ade’s ruff with affection
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Adelene Dawner: Close enough, anway :)
    Susi Alcott: sry; 'something' kept me
    Geo Netizen: Blizzard is over here and we are dug out …. so things are good
    Susi Alcott: hi Claire, Geo, Adelene, Pila
    Claire Beltran: We're finally getting snow in New York!
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: Rain, here.
    Geo Netizen: The south never did know what real winter is :)
    Geo Netizen: It is -2 F here
    Geo Netizen: Snow in New York … how much are you expecting?
    Geo Netizen scratches ruff and enjoys the warmth
    Claire Beltran: Oh... I hope it keeps on through the night. Its sticking right now.
    Geo Netizen: Could be a white Christmas :)
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Adelene Dawner afks to retrieve her dinner...
    Geo Netizen nods
    Geo Netizen and wonders if it is raw antelope
    Susi Alcott: hi steve
    Geo Netizen: Hi steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    stevenaia Michinaga: I may not stay long, sick people in household
    Geo Netizen nods ---
    Adelene Dawner returns, sans dinner.
    Geo Netizen: :)!)!
    Adelene Dawner: Nah, 's not done yet.
    Geo Netizen: How long does raw antelope take to bring down?
    Adelene Dawner chuckles.
    stevenaia Michinaga: bring down from where?
    Adelene Dawner: Depends on how much stalking you have to do, first.
    Geo Netizen: Hmmmmm
    Geo Netizen: Hi Doug
    doug Sosa: late, blush.
    Geo Netizen: nice landing :)
    Susi Alcott: hi doug
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    doug Sosa: about as graceful as a blind sofa.
    Geo Netizen chuckles
    Geo Netizen: Ahhh …. I have an invitation that just arrived I just can’t refuse
    Geo Netizen: (an offer ?)
    Geo Netizen: See you all later
    Adelene Dawner: cya, Geo
    doug Sosa: curiosity
    Adelene Dawner: hm
    doug Sosa: always but some times it is good to keep quiet.
    Adelene Dawner: Why is it that people build stories about other people, and then believe those stories more than reality, or more than what the people say about themselves?
    Susi Alcott: that's the creativity of human mind, which dont much know
    Adelene Dawner huffs. :|
    doug Sosa: "stores more than reality." if reality is not also a story it can't compete?
    Susi Alcott: well; that's there reality who creates those stories
    Susi Alcott: sadly that's to some persons so
    Susi Alcott: and there's not only few such person existing...as I've learned that to be very common way of ppl
    Adelene Dawner: Frequently seen, only recently noticed, and very painful to watch. :P
    Adelene Dawner: mm.
    Adelene Dawner: What gets me, is when someone like that thinks that what they say about what I think is supposed to be more accurate than what I say about what I think. I mean, WTF?
    Claire Beltran: Hmm...
    Claire Beltran: Sounds to me like what rankles you isn't 'fiction', it's 'personal worldview'.
    Adelene Dawner: hm?
    Susi Alcott: could you tell some example ?
    Claire Beltran: It's not the idea of 'people living in a fantasy world' that you think is bad. It's when they try to forcefully impress that world upon *you*.
    Claire Beltran: Please correct me if I am wrong, of course...
    Susi Alcott: agree with you Claire
    Adelene Dawner: In thie case I'm thinking of, yeah. Wouldn't really call that 'personal worldview', tho.
    Claire Beltran: Why wouldn't you call it that?
    Claire Beltran: And was it something specific that brought this feeling to bear?
    Susi Alcott: wcb Pila
    Adelene Dawner: Well, 'personal worldview' sounds a lot more general and far-reacthing than what I'm talking about... it's ideas like 'the world should be fair' or 'girls can't do X' or things like that. Something specific like "Ann resents being asked to do X" is not about the world, it's about me.
    Susi Alcott: take that this kind of things happenes a lot because of the lags in communication
    Adelene Dawner: Pila - if that were the case, my response of "No, I don't" wouldv'e gotten a very different response.
    Adelene Dawner: Not even that... though it was in that line, I guess. The response was "I know you do." My response to *that* was a restatement that I don't, and eventually an attempt at explaining the rather signifigant differences between frustration and resentment... the attempt failed because by that point I was not being listened to, and was beint interrupted every sentence or so.
    Adelene Dawner: *shrug*
    Susi Alcott: may I try to express what's rising from my chest for that ?
    Susi Alcott: some people cannot ask help the nice way
    Claire Beltran: That doesn't sound like 'fiction', Adelene... that sounds like prejudice.
    Adelene Dawner was being polite.
    Adelene Dawner: Predjudice is a kind of fiction, after all.
    Claire Beltran: Er... not really the same sort of thing, in my opinion.
    Adelene Dawner: oh?
    Adelene Dawner goes off to get her dinner while she waits for an explanation.
    Susi Alcott: understand Claire; many times it's based on certain kind experiencies
    Claire Beltran: Fiction is a kind of vision, like a dream. Prejudice is something applied to daily life.
    Susi Alcott: then it's 'just' generalization
    Susi Alcott: that is also the quite sad of human mind
    Susi Alcott: to compare 'new' to 'old'
    Susi Alcott: not being open to the new to be new if there's some similarities to the 'old'
    Adelene Dawner nods at Claire. "Not quite how I divide it up, but that makes some sense, yes."
    Adelene Dawner hrms at Susi.
    Claire Beltran: I'm sorry if I'm being too straightforward... but I like to call things what they are, even if it hurts.
    Adelene Dawner: Perfectly fine, Claire.
    Adelene Dawner: At this point, with this issue... it's interesting to ponder, because it's so odd and seems so useless of a thing to do. But I have absolutely no expectation of being able to fix it.
    Susi Alcott: however; You Adelene do have a prob, but do you have idea of the solution ?
    Susi Alcott: O
    Adelene Dawner: The problem is part of a set of problems that will be solved when I move.
    Susi Alcott: I'm sometimes a little slow, sometimes 'too quick'
    Adelene Dawner: hehe
    Adelene Dawner: I'm talking about my BF, as the person doing that - fairly new behavior for him, actually. The whole relationship has kind of imploded in the last couple of years... not much to be done at this point but leave.
    Claire Beltran: Maybe you're worried it will happen again?
    Adelene Dawner: an explanation for my bringing it up, yes.
    Adelene Dawner: Claire... I know how to respond to this. Some behavior is both unacceptable and unfixable. It's surprising and a bit distressing that it showed up in him, but, well. *shrug*
    Adelene Dawner nods at Pila.
    Susi Alcott: so the base reason may be 'in the fight' of equality ? between man and woman
    Claire Beltran leans her head on Adelen's back and scratches under her chin.
    Adelene Dawner: The 'restraint' part isn't going too well. I'm decent at it myself, but when he comes in and DEMANDS that we discuss things, and badgers me, and won't take no for an answer...
    Adelene Dawner: Highly unpleasant.
    Susi Alcott: and asking your help not-nicely
    Adelene Dawner: ...say more, Susi?
    Susi Alcott: he needs you but cannot addmitt that
    Adelene Dawner: True.
    Susi Alcott: he cannot come to you and say; 'Please help me!"
    Susi Alcott: because he is man and you are a woman
    Adelene Dawner: close, not quite.
    Adelene Dawner: He does come and ask for help... but what he wants and needs is help adjusting to the idea of me being gone, and I'm not the one who can do that for him, by the nature of the situation.
    Susi Alcott: so he do not receive the help
    Adelene Dawner: Say more, Pila?
    Susi Alcott: to do as he wants, is not the right way because he is thinking wrong
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Adelene Dawner: yup
    Adelene Dawner: And I'll be gone in just over 3 weeks... but the next three weeks are going to be *hard*.
    Adelene Dawner chuckles slightly. "Not your fault..."
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Adelene Dawner: I might be easier if we were 'in the same place' with it... but we're not... I'm already well disentangled, and he's very much not, and resisting the idea.
    Adelene Dawner doesn't see how that's supposed to work...
    Adelene Dawner huffs.
    Susi Alcott: only 'the third' can help
    Adelene Dawner: hm, Susi?
    Susi Alcott: him to realize what is to loose you or that some third person could open his eyes to his own doings/attitude
    Susi Alcott: ah
    Adelene Dawner: Agreed.
    Susi Alcott: connot be there
    Susi Alcott: somebody who knows both of you well and do love you both
    Susi Alcott: he's needing words
    Adelene Dawner: Not only do I agree, I see that something like that is *necessary*, which is why it's so frustrating that he keeps expecting me or him or us to just magically fix it.
    Susi Alcott: he has learned that you have the solutions
    Adelene Dawner: I've already done my best, with that. If he's not hearing my words, for whatever reason... not much else I can do.
    Susi Alcott: agree
    Susi Alcott: that's why the 'third' is needed
    Adelene Dawner sighs. "Why can't he see that demanding that I fix it is not going to work?"
    Susi Alcott: agree
    Adelene Dawner rests her head between her forepaws.
    Adelene Dawner chuckles at Pila.
    Susi Alcott: even if the reasons why he cannot see would be known to you
    Susi Alcott: that wouldn't help
    Adelene Dawner: True, Susi, but it might make it less painful.
    Claire Beltran sighs softly. "Oh, so tired..."
    Susi Alcott: pls hear your own words; you have done your best
    Susi Alcott: giving your worries to him you give him energy to keep his mind
    Adelene Dawner: Not that kind of painful, really. More like betrayal.
    Susi Alcott: the most hard lesson of the helper; 'do not help'
    Susi Alcott: the more hard the more close person is the help needer
    Adelene Dawner: yes
    Adelene Dawner: And also harder when the person asks, or demands.
    Adelene Dawner nods, and purrs good evening to Pila.
    Susi Alcott: Aloha Pila
    Claire Beltran: How do you feel now, Ade?
    Adelene Dawner: Not much better, but a little fortified.
    Susi Alcott: would it help to think those ppl that also needs you, but let you to help them ?
    Adelene Dawner: It's hard to see him hurting, and asking for help, and be unable to do anything productive.
    Adelene Dawner: mmm... not really, Susi. Distractions are only distractions.
    Susi Alcott: you need help yourself because you suffer
    Adelene Dawner: hm.
    Adelene Dawner: not 'need'. I can tolerate this.
    Susi Alcott: Adelene Dawner: Not much better, but a little fortified.
    Claire Beltran: It's difficult to talk about this... these things you're talking about are things I fear about myself. I keep hearing that I need to go easier on myself... but I really don't know *how*.
    Adelene Dawner: Worth poking at, though - at this intensity, it's easy to leave myself in situations that can be damaging.
    Claire Beltran: I'm sorry... I don't mean to redirect this.
    Adelene Dawner: no problem, Claire.
    Adelene Dawner: As to how...
    Susi Alcott: giving up
    Adelene Dawner: giving yourself permission is the first step.
    Susi Alcott: that can be the first step
    Susi Alcott: the first step can also be to addmitt that do need help
    Adelene Dawner: That 'moral masochism'... resonates reasonably well with me, even though I never had that particulat mindset... but I definitely believed for a long time that if I could tolerate something, I was obligated to, no matter what damage it did, and that's very close.
    Susi Alcott: wcb steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    stevenaia Michinaga: long meeing?
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Susi Alcott: in a way
    stevenaia Michinaga: am I intruding?
    Susi Alcott: no
    Susi Alcott: on the contrary I'de say
    stevenaia Michinaga: people are jsut begining to rezz
    Susi Alcott: do you Adelene feel now that you might have solution to be seen to yourself ?
    Adelene Dawner: I don't think there is a solution to mine, in the usual sense.
    Adelene Dawner: Just the best out of a set of bad options.
    Susi Alcott: there was just the topic of the wall
    Adelene Dawner: hm?
    Susi Alcott: how ppl cannot always see the solution even it's in front of there eyes
    Susi Alcott: love is one reason that makes such walls often
    Adelene Dawner shrugs.
    Claire Beltran hugs Adelene's neck.
    Adelene Dawner: hmm... time...
    Adelene Dawner: Gotta go, folks. Thanks.
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    stevenaia Michinaga: nodding out here... night all
    Susi Alcott: all the best to your wife too
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    stevenaia Michinaga: good seeing you Clair
    stevenaia Michinaga: thx
    Susi Alcott: your tired but not sleepy ?
    Claire Beltran: Both, really...
    Susi Alcott: then it would be good time for you to go to bed too
    Susi Alcott: wishing all the best to you too
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Susi Alcott: rest well
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