2008.12.17 19:00 - demanding compassion!

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    stevenaia Michinaga was the Guardian on Call for this session

     For the first few minutes I thought alone, jotting down topics of possibly discuss with myself or others who may eventually arrive.


    stevenaia Michinaga: possible subjects.. gratitude, compassion vs empathy, patience


    Adelene Dawner: arrives in griffin avatar and sites comfortably on my lap purring. This was shortly followed by Magdalena Colclough andSusi Alcott


    Adelene Dawner: purr?

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Ade

    stevenaia Michinaga: yes Purr indeed

    stevenaia Michinaga: now I know why this is so comfy for Corvi... smile

    Adelene Dawner: hehe

    stevenaia Michinaga: how are you tonight, Ade?

    Adelene Dawner: Jittery, still.

    stevenaia Michinaga: were you ill? my wife had the flu

    Adelene Dawner: no - life stuff. The next few weeks just don't look like they're going to be pleasant, no matter how I slice it.

    Adelene Dawner: But then I get to move to North Carolina, so ^.^

    stevenaia Michinaga: I was out for half the discussion also night getting emergency Jello

    stevenaia Michinaga: change is inevitibly good

    Adelene Dawner: inevitably?

    stevenaia Michinaga: in the end, change is good

    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Susi

    Susi Alcott: hi steve,

    Susi Alcott: hi Adelene

    Adelene Dawner: :)

    Magdalena Colclough: hello

    Susi Alcott: hi Magdalena

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Maggie

    stevenaia Michinaga: at least it will be warmer in N.C

    Adelene Dawner nods.

    stevenaia Michinaga: it should be a time of excitement and transformation

    Adelene Dawner: mm.

    stevenaia Michinaga: it;s not that often that a new start is before you, you should make the most of it

    Adelene Dawner: I still have to get through the next few weeks first.

    Susi Alcott: and at first this moment

    Susi Alcott: how r U now ?

    Susi Alcott: Ur fur seems nice

    Adelene Dawner: :)

    Susi Alcott: and I think ur in very good position too :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: I had to opprtunity to listen to another soul go through divorce and relocation, and she brought her happyness with her and still wears it well

    Magdalena Colclough: I just saw an interesting video about happiness

    stevenaia Michinaga: you tube?

    Magdalena Colclough: no

    Magdalena Colclough: from the TED site

    stevenaia Michinaga: TED?

    Magdalena Colclough: I can't remember what it stands for

    Magdalena Colclough: but they do these amazing weekly talks with experts from all sorts of disciplines

    Pillow Pile: Could not find object 'Rezzed'.

    Magdalena Colclough: this one was from 2004, though

    Adelene Dawner: this? http://sltotems.com/tslvd.aspx 

    Magdalena Colclough: yes


    Crusty Goldshark and Kirkra Caerndow arrive

    stevenaia Michinaga: Hello Crusty

    Crusty Goldshark: hi guys

    Adelene Dawner: I haven't watched it yet, but I know it's a TED video - a friend just gave me the link.

    Magdalena Colclough: hi Crusty

    Susi Alcott: hi Crusty

    stevenaia Michinaga: where is that vid screen we requested when we need it

    Adelene Dawner: hehe

    Susi Alcott: well Crusty, you said something such that interested me truely much

    Crusty Goldshark: yes?

    Susi Alcott: as you told that Buddha was mad

    Crusty Goldshark: possibly

    Susi Alcott: ah sure taken to be by somebody

    Susi Alcott: yes

    Susi Alcott: well; that has not changed even in Buddha's nowdays incarnation

    Susi Alcott: just couldn't help myself to tell you

    Crusty Goldshark: yes

    Crusty Goldshark: you mean in 'crazy wisdom' incanations?

    Susi Alcott: no

    Susi Alcott: I mean incarnation in flesh and blood

    Susi Alcott: as a human being

    Crusty Goldshark: how so?Example

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Kirkra

    Susi Alcott: hi Kirkra

    Crusty Goldshark: hi kirka

    Kirkra Caerndow: Hello thee everyone

    Adelene Dawner: Hi Kirkra

    Kirkra Caerndow: And hello once more!

    stevenaia Michinaga: before anyone arrived I was jotting down some ideas of what to talk about tonight, considering I may have had this conversation with myself

    stevenaia Michinaga: possible subjects.. gratitude, compassion vs empathy, patience


    Adelene Dawner brings up a related subject  that has been on her mind


    Adelene Dawner: I kind of have a subject.

    stevenaia Michinaga: happy to entertain any other ideas ,

    Adelene Dawner: It is in that vein.

    Crusty Goldshark: yes Adelene?

    Susi Alcott: so sry

    Susi Alcott: I'm called again

    Crusty Goldshark: bye

    stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for comming

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_

    Magdalena Colclough: bye Susi

    Susi Alcott: wihing all the best

    Adelene Dawner: Y'all know, I think, that I'm working on moving out and that things are rough between me and BF. (Also, while I have the opportunity: I am specifically not looking for advice about that, here.)

    stevenaia Michinaga: :)

    Adelene Dawner: One of the things that is happening is that he is *demanding* behavior from me that would, if freely given, be considered compassionate...

    Adelene Dawner: That seems extremely... agressive... of him. It's really pushing my buttons, and I'm not quite sure why.

    Crusty Goldshark: does not seem comapssionate to deamand compassion - wot am I missing?

    Crusty Goldshark: That is like insisting no one insist . . .

    stevenaia Michinaga: pushing buttons is always interesting subject... yes crusty

    Adelene Dawner: I'm not saying that he's being compassionate, Crusty. I'm saying that he's trying to demand compassionate behavior from me.

    stevenaia Michinaga: I don;t think compassion works that way

    Adelene Dawner nods.

    Crusty Goldshark: Really? How can someone demand what they are unable to provide - compassion . . .

    stevenaia Michinaga: like demanding love does not make love happen

    Crusty Goldshark: exactly Stevenaia

    Adelene Dawner: More than that - the fact that he's demanding it makes it pointless for me to do it even if I normally would, in my mind - it makes it impossible for me to *be* compassionate.

    Adelene Dawner: (In the ways he's asking, I mean.0

    Crusty Goldshark: Perhaps soeone is trying to exhibit their preferred behaviour through someone else - sis this compassionate or controlling?

    Crusty Goldshark: is

    stevenaia Michinaga: how you react to this is another side... buttons being pushed...

    stevenaia Michinaga: he makes a conversation that has nothing to do with you... yours

    Adelene Dawner is not quite understanding you, Crusty...

    Adelene Dawner: Steve... that sounds right, but I could use more detail.

    stevenaia Michinaga: Crusty, are you suggesting you can;t get compassion from a (metaphorical) stone

    Crusty Goldshark: Well it seems to me you are probably both compassionate and neither wants to be controlled or told how or in what degree to behave a certain way

    Adelene Dawner: Partly true, Crusty.

    Crusty Goldshark: which part is true?

    stevenaia Michinaga: sounds like my passive agressive mother

    stevenaia Michinaga: (oops, did I say that?)

    Crusty Goldshark: no

    Crusty Goldshark: . . .. was your mother speaking . . .

    Magdalena Colclough: if you ask for a gift, it's not really a gift anymore, is it?

    Adelene Dawner: For me, I tend to be compassionate (not always, but tend toward it), and definitely do not react ewell to being controlled or told what to do. He has in the past tended to be compassionate... not so sure, now... but sees no problem in demanding things of others in general, and says that he does not mind having things demanded of him, though that's a bit less than consistent.

    Adelene Dawner nodsat Mag.

    Magdalena Colclough: and you'd never know whether it came from the person's heart or simply from acquiescence

    Adelene Dawner: Exactly.

    Crusty Goldshark: What words does he use to say 'let us be more compassionate'?

    Magdalena Colclough: I think that's a really hard part of relationships--do you ask for what you need or simply hope for it to come your way

    Adelene Dawner: He doesn't say 'us' and he doesn't say 'compassionate'. He just throws hurt at me, and then sits there expecting me to pat him and make it better... and won't take no for an answer.

    Crusty Goldshark: and wouldn't you agree we can all be more compassionate?

    Adelene Dawner sighs.

    Magdalena Colclough: I think you have to learn to be compassionate without losing yourself in it

    Magdalena Colclough: it can be so dangerous--you can be sucked totally dry

    stevenaia Michinaga: Sounds like...."If you don't show compassion now , I'll shoot this dog?" a rather cynical approach

    Adelene Dawner: Can, yes. But a major part of the reason I'm leaving at all, was that he started pressuring me into it... that's not ok.

    Crusty Goldshark: You have talked about one thing but really are talking about a lack of communication

    Crusty Goldshark: He does not want to hurt you and you do not want to be hurt so it seems the communication is askew

    Adelene Dawner: In a sense, Crusty. I've told him in no uncertain terms that the pushing is a problem. He doesn't want to hear it - venting his emotions is obviously more important.

    Adelene Dawner: I'm not so sure about the 'he doesn't want to hurt me' part. I mean, all else being equal, yeah, he wouldn't. But it's not very high on the priority list, obviously.

    stevenaia Michinaga: the key is to not let it "get to you", this offers an oppurtunity to be calm and understanding without feeling diminished by his "demands"

    stevenaia Michinaga: think and reflect befor you react and choose then

    Adelene Dawner: I knew that, but your pointing it out brought up an interesting iteration...

    Adelene Dawner: If he sees that I am calm, he reacts by becoming more agressive.

    Adelene Dawner: Can I, or more how can I, be calm without showing it?

    stevenaia Michinaga: a good time to sit and watch until you are ready to communicate

    Adelene Dawner: That tends not to work, unless I have lirterally hours to wait while he wears himself out ranting.

    Magdalena Colclough: hi Corvuscorva

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Corvi, nice of you to join us

    Crusty Goldshark: hi corvuscorva

    stevenaia Michinaga: well it certainl;y won;t work for him, but we are talking about what you choose to do

    stevenaia Michinaga: if he will not change, you msut choose your best course for you

    Adelene Dawner doesn't see putting her life on pause at his whim while he rants and raves for hours as a particularly viable option.

    stevenaia Michinaga: hard to cummunicate with anyone in that state

    Crusty Goldshark: I can only say if I medidate for longer I am calmer and more able to deal with ranting aggression which seems to arise less anyway . . .

    Adelene Dawner: Depends how you define 'deal with' - if you mean, not get dragged into a sympathetic reaction, I've got that under control.

    Crusty Goldshark: There are things we can do about others behaviour if we wish - such as reframing in NLP but that is not always feasible unless we learn the techniques

    stevenaia Michinaga: NLP?

    Adelene Dawner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming ?

    stevenaia Michinaga: thx

    stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm.... light reading

    Crusty Goldshark: It is also possible to rant and be agressive and still be at peace inside

    Magdalena Colclough: have you read "Using your brain for a change"?

    Adelene Dawner looks that up

    Magdalena Colclough: it's about NLP

    Crusty Goldshark: Outer behaviour is something we manifest but inner response is something we cultivate

    Adelene Dawner: I get that, Crusty.

    Magdalena Colclough: I'm sorry. I have to go. Thank you for the discussion Stevenaia

    stevenaia Michinaga: night Maggie

    Crusty Goldshark: Sometimes we can treat very difficult times as our most important times of awareness

    Adelene Dawner: And I'm actually pretty good at the inner peace thing... it's the part about picking a useful outer behavior pattern that's hard.

    stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for joining us

    PaB Listener Master: Removing "Magdalena Colclough" from list.

    Crusty Goldshark: Can you behave outwardly emotional and matching of anothers behaviour - nirroring whilst maintaining equanimity?

    Adelene Dawner: Not easily.

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Angel

    angelbabelily Coba: hi

    Crusty Goldshark: Sometimes it is possible to match some behaviour - such as body tension and the n pase and examine how it feels - in other words you can find pause and awarness in and on the very pain you are being meant to feel . . .

    Crusty Goldshark: Hi Angel

    angelbabelily Coba: Hi

    Crusty Goldshark: then pause

    angelbabelily Coba: okay thank u

    Crusty Goldshark: and you can clench body parts to release tension or talk loudly but all as a meditation

    Adelene Dawner thinks that's unlikely to work for her - she's autistic, and poor to horrible at parsing body language at all.

    Adelene Dawner: (at least, in this kin of situation... though.... hmmmmmmmm...)

    Adelene Dawner: This may be one of those times where it's worth it to drop word-parsing and pick up body language instead. In theory, I can do that, but I've had very little practice...

    Adelene Dawner: Can't hurt, I bet.

    PaB Listener Master: Removing "angelbabelily Coba" from list.

    Crusty Goldshark: One simple body language technique is just slowing you body and speech by 50 %

    Adelene Dawner: That isn't useful if I'm not saying or doing anything.

    Crusty Goldshark: Ah - then you should be mirroring beaviour as part of your response

    Crusty Goldshark: You are not reflecting their behaviour - so they can do what they want . . .

    Adelene Dawner: Interesting thought, Crusty.

    Crusty Goldshark: You should be repeating their words and behaviour

    Crusty Goldshark: If I was getting angry and someonewas just being passive What would happen? I would continue but if they copy my behaviour what might happen?

    Adelene Dawner nods.

    Adelene Dawner ponders.

    Adelene Dawner: This has the potential to be *very* interesting.

    Crusty Goldshark: There is an NLP technique called attunement - you copy and mirror - this allows synching - then you lead and because you are in synch the other person follows . . .

    Crusty Goldshark: hi

    Kirkra Caerndow: Greetings

    Nostrum Forder: Hey!

    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Nostrum

    Adelene Dawner: As I implied earlier, I do often have to choose between different kinds of awareness. The upside to that situation is that whatever kind of awareness I'm using tends to be a lot more detailed than it is for most people. I notice things that others don't... even the word 'can't' would be accurate there.

    Adelene Dawner: This has interesting results, when I go to use the information... especially since I don't know what it's normal for others to see, and what's unusual.

    Adelene Dawner: Risky, though, turning auditory processingoff to try it.

    Crusty Goldshark: You are playing with your inner responses and landscape - this is why this is a potential gem practice

    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm ^.^

    Crusty Goldshark: I wish you sucess in finding a solution to more meaning ful communication

    Kotoshima Haiku: lol.

    Adelene Dawner: thanks :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: welcome Kotoshima, ahve you been here before?

    Crusty Goldshark: bye for now :)

    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm ;)

    Kotoshima Haiku: nope

    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Crusty

    Adelene Dawner: :)

    Kotoshima Haiku: i'm new.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: G'night Crusyt.

    stevenaia Michinaga: let me IM you some background info

    PaB Listener Master: Removing "Crusty Goldshark" from list.

    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps we should close the log for the evening.....

    Kotoshima Haiku: brb

    Adelene Dawner: Sounds like a plan Steve.

    stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for your purr and fur :)

    Adelene Dawner: ^.^

    stevenaia Michinaga: nice to meet you Kirkra

    Kirkra Caerndow: And nice to meet you as well! 

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