2008.12.18 01:00 - Invisible Orange Juice

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Fael Illyar. The comments are welcome by whoever has time and feels like it.

    Fael Illyar: Hi Crusty :)
    Fael Illyar: right on time :)
    Crusty Goldshark: hi fael
    Crusty Goldshark: I am half Swiss
    Crusty Goldshark: Time is an obsession :)
    Fael Illyar: Hehe :)
    Fael Illyar: It's that for pretty much everyone :)
    Fael Illyar: just not in the same way
    Crusty Goldshark: true
    Fael Illyar: Hi Wester :)
    Crusty Goldshark: hi Wester
    Wester Kiranov: Hi Fael, Crusty
    Crusty Goldshark: We were talking about time - who has time?
    Wester Kiranov: In a practical sense, you mean?
    Crusty Goldshark: Ye sometimes we are too busy to be busy :)
    Crusty Goldshark: yes
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Crusty Goldshark: (I saved time by leaving out the S )
    Fael Illyar nods 'Yes, sure, as you wish.
    Wester Kiranov: and spent that by explaining. very practical ;)
    Crusty Goldshark: We talk about time as a resource but it is largely an experience of movement between states of Reality
    Crusty Goldshark: 10 minutes can be long or short
    Crusty Goldshark: but really has no length
    Fael Illyar: long and short are words that modify others ... what's the thing being modified when used with time?
    Crusty Goldshark: I suppose the interpretation - what would you say?
    Crusty Goldshark: time does not seem to be a thing . . .
    Fael Illyar: no, not quite a thing
    Fael Illyar: it's more of an effect
    Crusty Goldshark: of?
    Fael Illyar: effect on things
    Fael Illyar: the word we use to explain how things can move ;)
    Crusty Goldshark: time does not seem to have any effect - it does not seem to exist - there are other causes for change
    Crusty Goldshark: Ah h h . . . makes more sense to me :)
    Wester Kiranov: but things need space to move in, and time
    Crusty Goldshark: Do they? Does time move?
    Wester Kiranov: well, you can get VERY philosophical about the movement of time, as all other things move in time and yet there's a sense of time passing
    Crusty Goldshark: We have a sense of all sorts of abstractions - none of which exist
    Fael Illyar: we have them, so they exist but not necessarily outside us.
    Fael Illyar: that is... if there's anything.
    Crusty Goldshark: So you would believe we have more of an invisible orange on our head when we think of it?
    Wester Kiranov: you can discuss that if you want to - it's too early for me. just having my first coffee.
    Crusty Goldshark: LOL changes orange to coffee - then to grean tea and drinks
    Fael Illyar: not when we think of it. When we believe it. It exists for us, doesn't it?
    Fael Illyar: even if it is something that will vanish when you stop believing in it.
    Crusty Goldshark: Perhaps . . . in science the difference between the thought of something and its non-existence (on the quantum level - slowly merge [anther sip of tea]
    Wester Kiranov: Do you hear those birds? Ahhh...
    Fael Illyar: you might have difficulty convincing anyone else that there's an invisible orange on your head though.
    Crusty Goldshark: So for example there are degrees of nothing and a nothing that has had a thought directed in it is less of a void . . .
    Crusty Goldshark: Really Fale? But we are discussing it . . .
    Fael Illyar: that has nothing to do with being convinced :)
    Crusty Goldshark: As for the birds - sounds good
    Fael Illyar: Yes, nice birds :)
    Crusty Goldshark: though just a suggestion . . .
    Wester Kiranov: nice completely nonexistent birds
    Crusty Goldshark: :)
    Fael Illyar: Yep :)
    Crusty Goldshark: What suggestions make something real - like the birds?
    Fael Illyar: the sound is there, likely for all three of us.
    Fael Illyar: anything else is pure interpretation
    Crusty Goldshark: yes and I feel quite strongly that I am sitting around a fountain with two others
    Wester Kiranov: wearing a santa hat
    Fael Illyar: Yes, very good example of what was my main point with the invisible orange :) If you believe it's there, it _is_ there for you.
    Wester Kiranov: i don't believe the birds are there, or the fountain, but that doesn't stop me enjoying them
    Wester Kiranov: but maybe some part of my brain IS fooled
    Crusty Goldshark: If I removed my hat would there be an invisible orange?
    Crusty Goldshark: So useful images?
    Wester Kiranov: nah ... it would affect the shape of your hat
    Fael Illyar: well, at least you're not trying your hardest to believe there's nothing there :)
    Crusty Goldshark: Oh - you got me - I already squeezed and juiced it
    Wester Kiranov: :D
    Fael Illyar: well, each of us here does have something round and invisible on our heads :)
    Crusty Goldshark: ?
    Fael Illyar: see the numbers? they float on the invisible round thing :)
    Fael Illyar: if you press ctrl-alt-t, you can even see the round thing since thats our "see invisible" spell here :P
    Fael Illyar: ctrl-alt-t again cancels it
    Crusty Goldshark: And I thought I had no head for numbers . . .
    Crusty Goldshark: TIme for my muesli
    Crusty Goldshark: CU you guys later
    Wester Kiranov: with invisible orange juice?
    Wester Kiranov: bye
    Fael Illyar: See you later Crusty :)
    Crusty Goldshark: With visble eggs and beans and maybe some more invisible orange juice :)
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Fael Illyar: anything on your mind Wester?
    Wester Kiranov: I was just think about what things are real, if any
    Fael Illyar: Hi Tarmel :)
    Wester Kiranov: I feel the birds and our avatars are not real, but you and I are
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I agree.
    Fael Illyar: on a practical level, that is :)
    Wester Kiranov: hi Tarmel
    Tarmel Udimo: hello both of you
    Wester Kiranov: I'm not sure how much the philosophical level helps
    Wester Kiranov: it can easily be just word play
    Fael Illyar: yet, depending on what we mean with real ... there is some reality to these AVs as well.
    Tarmel Udimo: how do you get to look like a shining blob of light wester?
    Fael Illyar: but it's similar reality like a painting has.
    Wester Kiranov: the avatars definitely say something about the person behind them
    Fael Illyar: the picture I mean
    Wester Kiranov: if only that i couldn't be bothered to make it more elaborate
    Fael Illyar: there's time :)
    Wester Kiranov: do i still look like a shining blob of light to you? I didn't to myself
    Fael Illyar: No you don't. That only happens when SL is buggy that way.
    Wester Kiranov: i thought so
    Fael Illyar: and often not for everyone at once
    Tarmel Udimo: ohh okay - so I'm the only one seeing it
    Fael Illyar: going into appearance editor and back often fixes it for anyone who has problem with it
    Wester Kiranov: OH, I just remembered, I have to get the kids form playground early today
    Wester Kiranov: now that is time interfering ;)
    Fael Illyar: Haha, yes, See you later then?
    Wester Kiranov: see you later
    Tarmel Udimo: see you later
    Tarmel Udimo: how are you today fael
    Tarmel Udimo: hi calire
    Fael Illyar: Hi Claire :)
    Tarmel Udimo: Claire
    Fael Illyar: How are you today?
    Claire Beltran: Tired... you?
    Claire Beltran: It's very late here...
    Fael Illyar: just woke up 1 and half hours ago so, quite awake.
    Fael Illyar: problems sleeping again?
    Fael Illyar: I'll cut the log here if you'd prefer.
    Claire Beltran: Yes... still with the problems.
    Fael Illyar: It's ok to have the problems. As long as you keep working on them.
    Fael Illyar: Well, strictly speaking, it's ok to not work on them too but ... well, that might not be very pleasant. Depends.
    Fael Illyar: if you want to fix them, you'll fix them eventually.
    Fael Illyar: no matter if you torture yourself with thoughts that it's bad to have them or not.
    Tarmel Udimo: do you sing professionally claire?
    Claire Beltran: Not yet... that's one of the many things tha rankles me.
    Tarmel Udimo: still training?
    Fael Illyar for some reason had an image of someone telling Claire that she's no good if she doesn't and would like to point out that that's a complete lie.
    Papadapadopolis Timeless: Hey!
    Tarmel Udimo: hello
    Fael Illyar: Hello
    Fael Illyar: ok, he's gone
    Claire Beltran: Oh, man... I'm nearly about to collapse.
    Tarmel Udimo: Collapse?
    Claire Beltran: From exhaustion.
    Fael Illyar: Bed would sound a good idea then :)
    Fael Illyar: Just remember that you'e perfect the way you are now (or ever). Nothing can change that. You are what you are because you had to become like that to survive.
    Claire Beltran: I wish I can bring myself to believe that. I really do.
    Fael Illyar: Even wanting to change is part of that. As much as not wanting to change.
    Fael Illyar: What is stopping you?
    Claire Beltran: Regret.
    Claire Beltran: I have to go now... have a good day/night.
    Fael Illyar: Good night Claire :)
    Tarmel Udimo: bye claire
    Claire Beltran: ^-^/
    Fael Illyar: Sleep as well as possible :)
    Fael Illyar is pondering whether to include or leave that out of the log.
    Tarmel Udimo: about her not being able to sleep?
    Fael Illyar: well, pretty much everything she said and we said to her
    Tarmel Udimo: please explain why?
    Fael Illyar: Well, on one hand it doesn't really tell all that much to most people but on the other, it's kind of private details about her...
    Tarmel Udimo: yes, it doesn't tell much, not enough for me to know what's the problem...
    Tarmel Udimo: are you referring to my wanderings about joshua?
    Fael Illyar: well, kind of.
    Tarmel Udimo: okay... I guess with him I felt it was different, because he had never been here before
    Tarmel Udimo: and he essentially revealed a lot about what had happened to him
    Tarmel Udimo: and I felt that since it would be read in the log, if he ever showed up again
    Tarmel Udimo: the group would perhaps see him through that filter
    Tarmel Udimo: and perhaps he needed to be able to be here without the baggage
    Fael Illyar: Well, he's very new to SL. No problem at all for him to create another AV if he finds that important.
    Tarmel Udimo: true
    Tarmel Udimo: but I suspect he probably doesn't know or understand how public the logs are
    Fael Illyar: I tried emphasizing that when I asked him but he didn't change... almost sounded like he wanted it published.
    Tarmel Udimo: yes I suspect he really needed to express all that and seemed in a lot of pain.
    Tarmel Udimo: has he returned?
    Fael Illyar: I haven't seen him around.
    Fael Illyar: and I don't look at logs that much usually so no idea.
    Tarmel Udimo: me neither
    Tarmel Udimo: I'm not sure what's happened to claire but it does feel like when she shows up she's treated in a specific way
    Tarmel Udimo: this is not a critism just an observation
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that's what usually happens...
    Fael Illyar: we're subconsciously very perceptive on how other people expect to be treated and tend to proceed that way.
    Fael Illyar: as long as it doesn't conflict with how we want to behave.
    Tarmel Udimo: you mean claire?
    Fael Illyar: in general :)
    Tarmel Udimo: so when she no longer wants to be treated in that way she'll respond and behave differently?
    Fael Illyar: no, not wants. Expects. Different
    Tarmel Udimo: so what happens when one responds differantly?
    Fael Illyar: it causes surprises.
    Fael Illyar: might put her in an unfamiliar situation, not sure how to react
    Tarmel Udimo: hummm see thisng differently
    Tarmel Udimo: *things
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that's what needs to happen for change often.
    Fael Illyar: but one of the primary "goals" people often seem to have is to preserve the status quo, cause as little disruption as possible.
    Fael Illyar: treating other people the way they expect is very often the way to that.
    Tarmel Udimo: good point
    Tarmel Udimo: so what have you decided about the log?
    Fael Illyar: well, I suppose I'll just post it.
    Fael Illyar: She didn't react to my hint that I could cut the meeting there if she wants.
    Tarmel Udimo: hummm perhaps i should have been more general and less specific
    Fael Illyar: what do you mean?
    Tarmel Udimo: well I keep forgetting that unlike a personal telephone call, everyone is party to the conversation
    Tarmel Udimo: and it may not be kosher to discuss another individual in a general chat log...
    Tarmel Udimo: so I request that the latter part not be included
    Fael Illyar: and here I thought this might be the interesting part ... oh well, ok, I'll leave it out.
    Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
    Tarmel Udimo: I guess I was think about Claire reading it and not appreciating being talked about...
    Tarmel Udimo: what do you think?
    Fael Illyar: hard to say ... but it usually is a good idea to expect whatever you say here to be read by the person you talk about.
    Tarmel Udimo: yes so now that I have learned that lesson, maybe not include it...
    Fael Illyar: I'll leave it out :)
    Tarmel Udimo: thanks
    Fael Illyar: So, shall we continue from you asking how I am today? :P
    Tarmel Udimo: okay - how are you?
    Fael Illyar: I see I forgot to answer :)
    Fael Illyar: I'm pretty good this morning :)
    Fael Illyar: You?
    Tarmel Udimo: end of a good day...
    Tarmel Udimo: I was at the kira cafe this morning and did a bit of skating in snow that felt good
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Fael Illyar: I've been working on a sort of body paint or tattoo shirt for SL.
    Tarmel Udimo: for yourself or do you create designs for others to wear?
    Fael Illyar: so far mostly just for myself.
    Fael Illyar: but there are a few others I've given copies of my wings to who occasionally wear them :)
    Tarmel Udimo: ahhh these are yours...
    Fael Illyar: There's also another wing design that I don't use that much.
    Tarmel Udimo: okay was that a test "wing" :)
    Fael Illyar: no, I switched to that one.
    Fael Illyar: this one is actually made after this one I use most of the time :)
    Tarmel Udimo: beautiful...
    Fael Illyar smiles 'Thank you.'
    Fael Illyar: try clicking on it :)
    Tarmel Udimo: ohh it changes..
    Fael Illyar: color change was manual :)
    Tarmel Udimo: so what's supposed to happen when I click on it?
    Fael Illyar: it becomes more solid or glows more whichever way you want to express that :)
    Tarmel Udimo: okay...
    Tarmel Udimo: very nice
    Fael Illyar: these wings are the first thing I made ... graphical thing.
    Tarmel Udimo: was it hard?
    Fael Illyar: haven't made anything this complex before.
    Fael Illyar: took around 25 hours total
    Tarmel Udimo: yikes
    Fael Illyar: for both wings
    Fael Illyar: so total 50
    Tarmel Udimo: worth it though as they are very unique and always knows it's you ... :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I haven't seen anyone wearing anything comparable.
    Fael Illyar: except people I've given copies to of course :)
    Tarmel Udimo: one day it would be good to have a scripting session
    Fael Illyar: scripting session?
    Tarmel Udimo: well you create them via scripting?
    Fael Illyar: oh but I've put more work into the scripts in these wings than the graphical design... that was the 25 hours part
    Fael Illyar: total over 100 hours if you include scripting I think
    Fael Illyar: Well, it was sort of a project to learn the scripting language at the same time.
    Fael Illyar: but there are several quite different things you can do here.
    Fael Illyar: building, texturing, scripting
    Fael Illyar: this wing is mostly just texturing and scripting.
    Tarmel Udimo: yes I'm interested to learn...
    Fael Illyar: since it's very simple structure
    Fael Illyar: the texture is the complex part
    Tarmel Udimo: you mean the opacity?
    Fael Illyar: that's what gives it the shape you see :)
    Tarmel Udimo: no I don't see
    Fael Illyar: you don't see the wing?
    Tarmel Udimo: yes its got swirls in it...
    Fael Illyar: it's mostly just a texture on a box.
    Fael Illyar: see through texture but still
    Tarmel Udimo: okay i get it now
    Fael Illyar: kind of like this
    Tarmel Udimo: fabulous...
    Fael Illyar: It's relatively easy to make simple things
    Tarmel Udimo: sorry phone call
    Tarmel Udimo: just a min
    Fael Illyar: this is something else I've made but didn't get up to finishing.
    Tarmel Udimo: back again, sorry
    Fael Illyar: no problem :)
    Claire Beltran: Hi...
    Claire Beltran: I'm sorry... still can't sleep.
    Fael Illyar: Hello again Claire. Nothing to be sorry about :)
    Tarmel Udimo: hi claire
    Fael Illyar: anyway, this is something I made to test out some things.
    Tarmel Udimo: great what are you trying to do...
    Fael Illyar: this thing has no scipting in it :)
    Fael Illyar: just textures and prims
    Tarmel Udimo: how do you get rid of the object?
    Fael Illyar: right click, choose more and then delete
    Fael Illyar: you can also take it
    Tarmel Udimo: just got a notice from Irie Vibes have you been there
    Fael Illyar: Doesn't sound familiar. What is it?
    Tarmel Udimo: a dance hall that plays reggae
    Tarmel Udimo: is the blue lotus a nice place?
    Fael Illyar: Yes, very nice place :)
    Tarmel Udimo: I might go there and chcek it out..
    Tarmel Udimo: *check
    Fael Illyar: well, this fan looks like something now :)
    Tarmel Udimo: yes very delicate

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