2008.12.21 13:00 - Exploring the dreaming states

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     The guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden.  The comments are hers.


    When I got to the Pavilion Scathach and Wester were in conversation and very soon Tarmel joined us. 

      Tarmel Udimo: hi everyone
       Maxine Walden: hi Tarmel
       Wester Kiranov: hi tarmel
       Wester Kiranov: we hadn't started yet, really
       Maxine Walden: OK


    I was moved by the difference between RL out my window (snowing)  and the SL scene next to the pool and fountain and clam balmy weather.


       Maxine Walden: so interesting, outside my RL window it is snowing  
       and here there is lovely weather and a fountain...
       Scathach Rhiadra: :)
       Tarmel Udimo: smiles


    Tarmel begins our conversation about dreams and related issues. Riddle soon joins us.

       Tarmel Udimo: I read the log of your talk Maxine and found it quite  
       Maxine Walden: oh? glad you enjoyed it
       Maxine Walden: the talk about dreams ?
       Maxine Walden: hi Riddle
       Riddle Sideways: Hi Everybody
       Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Riddle
       Tarmel Udimo: hi riddle
       Wester Kiranov: hi riddle
       Tarmel Udimo: yes maxine and the dreaming awake reality
       Wester Kiranov: i liked that talk too
       Maxine Walden: rigjht, did you have some impressions, thoughts etc
       which came out of those thoughts re dreams/dreaming?
       Tarmel Udimo: well it reminded me how much I used to dream and into  
        looking at dreams I was into


    In the midst of the discusison Pema makes his first of several appearances, experiencing crashing several times during the session, which may have created a kind of dreamscape for him re our session as we pursue the discusison of dreams and our conscious relation to our dreaming selves

       Wester Kiranov: hi pema
       Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
       Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema
       Riddle Sideways: hi Pema
       Maxine Walden: hi, Pema.
       Maxine Walden: Interesting, Tarmel
      Tarmel Udimo: and it made me realise how now I almost never but seem  
      to sometimes expereince those intuitice moments when awake 
      Tarmel  Udimo: hi pema
      Tarmel Udimo: *intuitive connections
      Maxine Walden: I find that interesting as well, how at different  
      times, under different conditions we recall or not our dreams and  
      perhaps relate/become aware of our intuitions differently
      Maxine Walden: so many factors internal and external which play into  
      our recalling or connecting with our inner dream/fantasy life, at  
      least for me
      Riddle Sideways: is your talk stored somewhere?
      Tarmel Udimo: so you think one is still dreaming all the time even  
      though one doesn't recall them?


    Wester graciously offers the address where Kira talks are stored, in this case the recent talk on dreams I gave.

      Wester Kiranov: The talk is here http://www.kira.org/index.php?    option=com_content&task=view&id=88&Itemid=119  I just looked it up myself
      Maxine Walden: I believe that genesis has sent is a message that it  
      is stored at the Kira site...logs of events and talks...oh, thanks  
      Riddle Sideways: TY
      Maxine Walden: yes, Tarmel, my understanding is that we are dreaming  
      all the time, even now when awake, in that the dreaming process is  
      constantly processing all the input from our inner and outer  
      experience and we probably recall only small fragments of the ongoing  
    dream, as it were

    Fefonz joins us as we continue our exploration of the dreaming process and the unconscious regions of experience

      Fefonz Quan: Hello all
      Maxine Walden: for me the unconscious region of experience, that we  
      do not have immediate connection with when awake , is a vital and deep- 
      going part of 'us' and of being...something I would love to have a  
      deep conversation with Pema and others about
      Riddle Sideways: hi fefonz
      Tarmel Udimo: hi fefonz
      Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
      Maxine Walden: hi Fefonz
      Wester Kiranov: hi fefonz
      Riddle Sideways: so this deep is going on at all time.
      Fefonz Quan: Hi :)
      Riddle Sideways: and sometimes we call it dreaming
      Riddle Sideways: sometimes call it fantasy
      Maxine Walden: that is my current understanding Riddle, all the  
      time, and we sometimes call it dreaming sometimes fantasy, yes
      Riddle Sideways: sometimes can't recall it
      Riddle Sideways: maybe sometimes call it thinking
      Riddle Sideways: simulating
      Maxine Walden: maybe so, Riddle...simulating thinking?
      Riddle Sideways: playing what-if
      Scathach Rhiadra: could our 'stream of consciousness' be part of the  
      ongoing dreaming?
      Wester Kiranov: perception, as well
      Riddle Sideways: faenik= why not
      Maxine Walden: yes, I think so Scatch...
      Tarmel Udimo: well if that is the case the more awake/aware become  
      the more that 'unconscious part' could no longer be unconscious
      Wester Kiranov: when we dram all that we see is made up by  
      ourselves, and when we are awake not all of it is, that is an  
      important difference
      Tarmel Udimo: and that's where our intuitive almost telepathic  
      moments come from
      Wester Kiranov: *dream
      Riddle Sideways: perhaps any processing that is not derived from  
      input simuli
      Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
      Maxine Walden: interesting thoughts...re the unconscious for me, it  
      is as vast as the external cosmos...likely never to be fully explored


    Umbriel and then doug join us as we coninue to explore this inner psychic region. One topic that seems to capture interest and diverse discussion is the notion that our inner psychic states form the lens for our perception and experiece of the outer world.


      Riddle Sideways: hi Umbriel
      Fefonz Quan: although dreams do build on the day time experiences
      Fefonz Quan: (sometimes)
      Maxine Walden: well, here is an interesting thought for me: that the  
      world we see outside, what we perceive externally, is really comprised  
      from our inner perceptions
      Riddle Sideways: Hi Doug, get out of the fountain
      doug Sosa: quietly: hi
      Maxine Walden: For instance, if I am feeling good, what I see 'out  
      there' is mainly seen as peaceful; when I am upset, angry I 'see' more  
      disturbance 'out there'
      Umbriel Levenque: Hi doug :-)
      Maxine Walden: hi, doug
      Fefonz Quan: hi, doug
      doug Sosa: :)
      Tarmel Udimo: hi doug
      Wester Kiranov: so you choose what to see because of what you are  
      Maxine Walden: the lens of my feeling state greatly impacts 'what' I  
      Fefonz Quan: i feel quite similar to what Maxine descries
      Fefonz Quan: describes
      Tarmel Udimo: yes I experience this and so moment by moment (when  
      I'me up for it) I try refreshing the outlook in a way
      Fefonz Quan: but does it effect only the "emotion" of things or  
      things themselves like in a dream?
      Umbriel Levenque: Yes Maxine. I've started to question my  
      perceptions more.
      Maxine Walden: for me, Fefonz, my inner state affects what I feel I  
      truly 'see' out there, not just the emotion of things out there. Does  
      that coincide with others' experience?
      Wester Kiranov: affect, yes, detemines no
      Tarmel Udimo: yes,
      Wester Kiranov: *determines
      Fefonz Quan: affect surely determines - i still wonder
      Fefonz Quan: (surely,)
      Tarmel Udimo: often when I am on beam I call it things unfold as they  
      should be, I think of something and it happens
      doug Sosa: well, amix for me. i can be in a tight mood and see  
      something beautiful suddenly and i respond to it.
      Fefonz Quan: right doug, i feel to that there is some mutual  
      Fefonz Quan: *too
      doug Sosa: right,and not completely deterministic in either direction.
      Maxine Walden: yes, doug, that is wonderful when that happens, and  
      maybe you are reminding us or me that it is not 100% but the tighter I  
      am inside the more constricted does the world out there seem,
      Maxine Walden: and vice versa...do these thoughts of ours connect  
      with PaB or Being?
      doug Sosa: closer,noticed :)
      doug Sosa: good question.
      Riddle Sideways: if we extend the dreaming all the time model...  
      then the seeing what we want to see mode is easier to understand
      Riddle Sideways: then the usual automatic no that is not real...
      doug Sosa: you mean we dream what we want to dream?
      Riddle Sideways: we see in our dreams what we choose to concentrate on
      doug Sosa: chose? Really? not my experience.
      Riddle Sideways: we can not focus on ALL all the dream
      Wester Kiranov: but dreams can get our attention to things we din't  
      see, too
      Wester Kiranov: didn't want to see, amybe
      Riddle Sideways: yes, isn't that really neat
      Fefonz Quan: i don't have a feeling that i choose the plots of my  
      doug Sosa: I am not smart enough to make up the plots in my dreams.
      Fefonz Quan: though they are remarkably complicated sometimes
      Fefonz Quan: my point too, doug :)
      Riddle Sideways: nice putting yourself down Doug, but we  
      don'tbelieve you
      Maxine Walden: for me the dream plots and messages are so complex it  
      brings awe about an inner intelligence that is not under my control at  
      doug Sosa: yes,truly.
      Fefonz Quan: i found that control over the dream is achieved only if  
      i  recognize that it is a dream

    And then be we begin to explore the notion of a greater intelligence at work/play which may sculpt our dreams and other unconscious elements

      Wester Kiranov: right. it's a part of you that is much bigger than  
      the "day" you
      doug Sosa: and even then it is control like driving a car,no that of  
      making the car.
      Maxine Walden: that we all have that inner intelligence operating  
      but may not know it...does that seem too 'far out'?
      Tarmel Udimo: not at all
      Scathach Rhiadra: no:)
      Riddle Sideways: nope
      Fefonz Quan: for me it does seem a little far out
      doug Sosa: I agree with maxine.but then the mystery is why is my dreamer  
      smarter than me the dream observer?
      Fefonz Quan: we have very broad imagine, too
      Wester Kiranov: but why is it so hard to recognize a dream as a dream?
      Riddle Sideways: the trick is to know that intel and dreaming and  
      bring it into 'day'
      Fefonz Quan: intel?
      doug Sosa: O dreaming and seeing are quite similar.
      Fefonz Quan: ok
      doug Sosa: similar worlds.
      Riddle Sideways: inteligence
      Maxine Walden: (such great questions and observations in this  
      conversation, it seems to me)
      doug Sosa: the question then is, what is the difference
      Wester Kiranov: I once had a dream that I recognized as a typical  
      dream situation - and then I thought "oh, so this can happen in real  
      life too"
      Riddle Sideways: who cares (is one good answer)
      Tarmel Udimo: in fact I think the more we experience who we really  
      are ie being we are more and more fully in contact with this 'inner  
      doug Sosa: Seeing includes that stuff outside, whereas in dreaming  
      the "outside" is shut out. Te mind is freer
      doug Sosa: in the dream state,not constrained by outer things.
      Riddle Sideways: hi again pema
      Maxine Walden: I would currently agree with Tarmel re being in touch  
      with that inner intelligence

    Pema rejoins us. Several of us try to brief him as to what we have been discussing.

      Umbriel Levenque: Hi Pema :-)
      Pema Pera: hi again everybody -- severe crash and reboot and . . . .  
      long story
      Maxine Walden: hi Pema, welcome back; hope we did not drive you away
      Fefonz Quan: infact one of the signs i have for eing in a dream is  
      "ilogical things happen'
      Tarmel Udimo: sorry to hear that very frustrating
      Fefonz Quan: Hi Pema!
      Wester Kiranov: hi pema - still discussing dreams here
      Fefonz Quan: *being
      Maxine Walden: we are talking about dreaming and being and related  
      items, Pema
      Maxine Walden: and nearly all us us agreeing there is an inner  
      intelligence which is much greater that our 'daytime' intelligence
      Riddle Sideways: ha, one of the signs that I am in RL is that  
      illogical things are happenings
      Pema Pera: :-)
      Fefonz Quan: we are in your dream riddle, wake up :)
      doug Sosa: riddle sideways lives up to his name.
      Riddle Sideways: i don'twant to wake up nor grow up
      Fefonz Quan: easier to avoid one of them
      Umbriel Levenque: :-)

    We then begin to consider the dream quality of what is right before us, in this instance our very conversation, an idea which might have been difficult to digest.  

      Maxine Walden: for me it is interesting to think that for me and  
      all of us, this conversation is part of a dream...I see/understand  
      what each of you is saying according to an internal lens which is  
      affected by my inner state...and that may vary from moment to moment...
      Maxine Walden: and that each of you may see/understand this  
      conversation slightly differently according to your inner lens of the  
      Fefonz Quan: slightly, sure
      Riddle Sideways: it is soo much easier to see the 'lens' of SL,  
      virtual Reality, avs, computer tubes
      Riddle Sideways: try this same understanding in RL converstaion
      Fefonz Quan: yes, that's why i practice Pab not looking at the  
      computer Tarmel Udimo: yes I used that like a feed back mechanism  
      whether in RL or SL

    Fefonz suggests we have a signifier DL for dream life.  Several of us roll that thought around and further consider the differences/similarities of RL and DL

      Fefonz Quan: should we defone DL - dream life?
      Tarmel Udimo: I try to see which lens is looking why my  
      responses are they way they are
      Fefonz Quan: define*
      Maxine Walden: lol, fefonz, DL as dreamlife! Maybe close to  
      or is an aspect of Being or our connection with Being
      Riddle Sideways: some of us where saying that there is no/ 
      little difference betweeen DL and RL
      Fefonz Quan: i find the declaration of no difference hard to  
      Wester Kiranov: not as much as some people think, anyway
      Fefonz Quan: day to day live has some continuity, that dream  
      to dream do not have

    Doug offers a couple of ways to consider the relationships of RL to DL: the constraints of RL sensory input vs the freedom of the dreaming state and the discontinuity similar to what one would find on different floors of a department store. Several of us ponder these and related views

      doug Sosa: the diffeence is eal, but not absolute. when  
      perceiving, the mind is constrained by what the senses bring in.in  
      dreaming the constraint is removed so the dream is a bit freer to do  
      odd things.
      Wester Kiranov: that's because we don't have the feedback  
      from outside in DL
      Wester Kiranov: (what fefonz said)
      Riddle Sideways: many times I see much continuity in the dreams
      doug Sosa: if you get in the elvator in the first floor of a  
      department store, there is no continuity with what happens when you  
      get off at 4.
      Riddle Sideways: yes
      Maxine Walden: lol, Doug
      Fefonz Quan: memory, at least...
      Fefonz Quan: (use the stairs next time...)
      Riddle Sideways: was having a good dream.... cat jumps on me  
      and I awake for moment... then goback to same dream
      Fefonz Quan: i had some continuities between dreams
      Maxine Walden: for me doug is reminding us of varying levels  
      of experience (floors of the department store) which seem to have no  
      Fefonz Quan:b ut they are rare and short

    And Wester brings up the window we can often have upon the dreaming life as we let go of waking life in our going to sleep.

      Wester Kiranov: often when I am just falling asleep, I  
      suddenly remember what I was dreaming the day before
      Wester Kiranov: and I can get into that same dream again
      Fefonz Quan: that's impressive
      Maxine Walden: yes, Wester, it is often thought that as we  
      let loose of our conscious selves in falling asleep we have more  
      access to our dreams and 'inner' life
      Fefonz Quan: from movie to mini-series
      Fefonz Quan: sometimes i wish i could to that
      Riddle Sideways: and sometimes we ride the elevator back down  
      to floor 1 and find the same department :)

    Perhaps naturally we consider the complexity of inner life in terms of levels of experience, and an inner intelligence which likely surpasses our conscious efforts in that regard. In addition the notion of labels comes up, what we label as awakeness and dreaming.

      Maxine Walden: and the notion of many 'levels' of inner  
      experience, dialog with our inner selves, makes the notion of a very  
      complex inner self impressive to me
      Wester Kiranov: i'm not doing it, it just happens
      Maxine Walden: 'levels'
      Tarmel Udimo: and what if we flipped it and saw it as not  
      'dreaming' but just in various stages of awakeness?
      Fefonz Quan: in what sense?
      Tarmel Udimo: which is 360 degrees
      Umbriel Levenque: My experiences with dreams are similar to  
      yours Riddle
      Tarmel Udimo: so therefore able to conect with multiple  
      levels of understanding
      Riddle Sideways: yep, everything the same, just labeled  
      Maxine Walden: that would be interesting as well, Tarmel,  
      maybe we could use the term awakeness instead of dreaming...not get  
      hamstrung by labels
      Wester Kiranov: there are very different ways you could mean  
      awake here - in short, as being more aware of dreaming or dreaming less
      Tarmel Udimo: it brings us closer o see our reality as being  
      Tarmel Udimo: *seeing

    I am very grateful to Umbriel for reminding me what I had said in the earlier talk, that we dream rather constantly and that what we are talking about when we discuss dreams are those dreams that we remember.  it interests me that I can so easily fall back into using that shorthand of 'dreaming' when the more accurate notation would be 'remembered dreams'.

      Umbriel Levenque: According to what you said during the talk  
      Maxine, we dream more or less same amount but remembering less rather  
      than dreaming less... am I remembering correctly here?
      Fefonz Quan: for me a higher state of awareness in the dream  
      is to recognize it as such, why does the mere "dreaming" is highger  
      state of awareness then not dreaming?
      Tarmel Udimo: maxine points by labeling a process differently  
      we could perhaps see things in a different way
      Wester Kiranov: I gues being more aware of how much you are  
      dreaming makes you more awake
      Maxine Walden: Umbriel, I believe I did say that we probably  
      dream rather constantly but do not remember ...and our common everyday  
      comment about 'dreaming' refers to our remembering our dreams, even  
      here as we talk
      Riddle Sideways: I imagine Moon sneaking behind Maxine and  
      switching all her labeled states on the shelves
      Tarmel Udimo: smiles
      Umbriel Levenque: Thank you Maxine :-)

    And it felt important to mention the caution about the potential hierarchy re renembering dreams vs not doing so...

      Maxine Walden: I think we could get into difficulty if we  
      glean that remembering our dreams is 'better' in some way than not. I  
      know some people who feel they do not remember dreams but have other  
     experiences, such as awakening with the 'answer' to a problem...so  
     ther e may be many equivalents of 'dreaming' and we should not get  
     into a hierarchy about which is better
     Maxine Walden: will watch for Moon! and possible  
     Fefonz Quan: i've read that we remember the dreams that were  
     dreamt just before we woke up
     Fefonz Quan: and though this hierarchy may not be better,  
     this is the way we can discuss them
     Riddle Sideways: or that we remember them in the way  
     conscience mind needs to deal with them (as maxinesaid)
     Maxine Walden: I think some dream researchers say that is so,  
     Fefonz. My experience suggests that things may be more complex than  
     temporality to awakening

    Wester brings in a sweet cartoon which should actually be added to the chatlog as a 'picture' our our common experience of forgetting dreams and may just be a reminder that the remembered dream may be/ likely is only a fraction of the 'actual dream'...

     Wester Kiranov: http://xkcd.com/430/ - on remembering dreams
     Riddle Sideways: ha, very good Wester
     Fefonz Quan: i do agree that this point is more technical  
     than principal
     Maxine Walden: It is often very difficult to 'not know' about  
     the inner complexities and we may try to 'simpligy' so that we feel we  
     can know. The terror of 'not knowing' can make us seek simple rather  
     than awe at the complexity...
     Riddle Sideways: to some
     Fefonz Quan: nods, awing at the complexity
     Riddle Sideways: others might appreciate the appearances

    And as we begin to leave we offer variations of 'have a good dream' to those heading for bed

     Wester Kiranov: going from SL to RL to DL now.
     Wester Kiranov: namaste
     Umbriel Levenque: :-) Bye Wester
     Pema Pera: bye Wester!
     Fefonz Quan: good night wester :)
     Riddle Sideways: bye Wester
     Tarmel Udimo: bye wester
     Maxine Walden: nice talking Wester. See you soon
     Pema Pera: enjoy all transitions!
     Scathach Rhiadra: namasté Wester
     Umbriel Levenque: Off to bed here also. Enjoy your day
     Maxine Walden: bye Umbriel
     Pema Pera: happy dreams, Umbriel!
     Riddle Sideways: niters Umbriel
     Scathach Rhiadra: night Umbriel
    Riddle Sideways: they go.... to sleep perchance to dream
     Maxine Walden: An interesting conversation today...maybe we  
     can each think/dream about it an see how our understandings  
     evolve...yes, Riddle to sleep perchance to dream...
     Pema Pera: yes, fascinating, sorry I missed part o fit
     Pema Pera: I look forward to read the log, in due time!
     Pema Pera: and I have to leave now too
     Pema Pera: great seeing you all -- and I hope we can continue  
     this conversation soon(ish)!
     Maxine Walden: Pema, I will of course put up th chatlog. bye  
     Scathach Rhiadra: Namasté Pema
     Tarmel Udimo: bye pema
     Fefonz Quan: Bye Peama
     Pema Pera: ciao
     Riddle Sideways: bye Pema
     Fefonz Quan: it's 12pm for me here, so SL-RL-DL too soon :)
     Maxine Walden: I will have to go as well...its been a great  
     Tarmel Udimo: yes thanks maxine - enjoyed it
     Fefonz Quan: yes, thanks for the conversation
     Riddle Sideways: and I have a cold, so might go back to bed  
     at 2pm
     Scathach Rhiadra: night Maxine, fefonz
     Maxine Walden: Please check the log and amend it if you like.
     Riddle Sideways: thank you Maxine=

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