2008.12.24 07:00 - We Each Work in Seperate Labs.

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     Corvi took the log for Tarmel who couldn't be here.  Comments are Corvi's.


    Gaya and I had been IMing about simplicity just before the meeting so I asked about it.


    Gaya Ethaniel: Hey Corvi ^^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Gaya.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yay! Christmas eve ^^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: let's talk about what it means to be simple?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Simple... I like things to be simple...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Would you tell me what that means to you?
    Gaya Ethaniel: No 'frills'
    Gaya Ethaniel: I can be fond of 'frills' at times but
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hard to remember them all ^^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
    Gaya Ethaniel: So I am a simpleton ^^
    \Corvuscorva Nightfire bops you with a pillow.
    Gaya Ethaniel giggles
    Gaya Ethaniel: Guess words like 'direct' can describe 'simple' at times fo rme
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya Adams!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hey Adams ^^
    Adams Rubble: Hello Gya and Corvi :)
    Adams Rubble: Gaya
    Adams Rubble: How is everyone this morning (afternoon)?


    I refer to an email I had accidently sent to the whole Play as Being group but meant to send to one person:


    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Good though a little...well..tired. and embarrassed.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: so Gaya says she's a simpleton...
    Adams Rubble: Yes, I saw. It happens to all of us
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and we're discussing being simple (pokes Gaya mischeviously)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to Adams.
    Adams Rubble: ah


    .Snowflakes fly from the open sky above the pavilion onto the mats on which we sit.


    Corvuscorva Nightfire admires the snowflakes.
    Adams Rubble: They seem to be following be around
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well, those discussions can be hard on my simple wee brain too... but then I realise Corvi is far smarter than me so
    Corvuscorva Nightfire whops her with a pillow again.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that's NOT what I meant!
    Adams Rubble thinks Gaya is pretty darn smart
    Gaya Ethaniel giggles
    Gaya Ethaniel: Say what you meant again?
    Gaya Ethaniel: ty Adams ^^
    Gaya Ethaniel got you on Constable hey? ^^
    Adams Rubble: Well on Suffolk :)
    Adams Rubble: Did not know all those hay wagons were in Suffolk
    Gaya Ethaniel: [Finally one point against my name]
    Gaya Ethaniel: ^^
    Adams Rubble still hasn't looked at a map
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I meant the idea of ESP makes me nervous. I feel very frustrated by it's attractiveness and unprovability.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Why nervous?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: because it is so appealing an idea. and so easy to mistake for imagination, but...it can't be proved or disproved.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and as Tarmel pointed out last night..doesn't need to be.
    Adams Rubble would agree with that
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Adams Rubble: first sentence, anyway
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: The thing is..it touches on that idea of faith.
    Adams Rubble: first statement (two sentences)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: which I find so difficult anyway.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Which one Adams? Sorry being slow here...
    Adams Rubble has never experienced ESP
    Adams Rubble: Gaya, that it is easy to mistake for imagination and can't be proved or disproved
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: When I feel like that... I just say 'perhaps'
    Gaya Ethaniel: And move on... keep it simple heheheh
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes.
    Adams Rubble: Corvi, may I ask what it is you would rather see us talking about? It is possible many of us might want to talk about those things too
    Adams Rubble: Hello Claire
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hey Claire ^^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh..that's what I was afraid of..I think we talk about wonderful things. It wasn't a global statement.
    Claire Beltran: *sobs fitfully and leaves*
    Adams Rubble: sorry to put you on the spot
    Gaya Ethaniel: Claire?
    Adams Rubble: ?
    Gaya Ethaniel: She said something about Christmas to me before... let's see


    Claire leaves but returns to add an important comment.


    Corvuscorva Nightfire: don't worry, Adams..I am kind of glad to get these comments into the log.
    Adams Rubble: Yes it is good
    Gaya Ethaniel: One never know about these things...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Why glad Corvi?
     Corvuscorva Nightfire: because I am afraid others will think I don't LIKE these discussions.
    Gaya Ethaniel: wb Claire
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya, Claire.
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: or that I'm judging..when what I meant was just that I was having an emotional reaction to a topic.
    Adams Rubble: I understand that Corvi
    Gaya Ethaniel: Which part of the topic? I don't know much about that topic to understand...
    Adams Rubble: Sometimes things just don't seem to fit the place where we are residing
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ESP? taking things on faith?
    Adams Rubble: don't meet our needs
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... ok
    Adams Rubble: Hello Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: Hi all
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: in this case it's an idea I'm struggling with, actually..not esp itself..but accepting that things don't have to be proven or even provable.
    Gaya Ethaniel reads Phenomenology entry on wiki again...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hey Fefonz ^^


    We had been at that last meeting talking about two different things..phenomonenology and esp


    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it was two different things. We were discussing phenonomenology which I find interesting, and esp which I find disconcerting.
    Adams Rubble: Isn't ESP something we can just ignore?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yep
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: mostly I do.
    Gaya Ethaniel: wb Fefonz ^^
    Adams Rubble: wb Fefonz


      I wish I'd asked more about this Adams..one can see then let go rather than ignore..but can one not see and let it go?


    Gaya Ethaniel: Or one can see and then let go?
    Gaya Ethaniel: [rather than ignore]
    Adams Rubble: or not see and let it go :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire mumbles something about prefering to ignore.
    Fefonz Quan: connection problems, hope to stay...
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: For me telling myself 'perhaps' is part of 'seeing' and letting go
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Adams Rubble: Yes we hope you can. I don;t think I have met you yet at a session Fefonze. Nice to meet you
    Adams Rubble: ah yes Gaya
    Fefonz Quan: Nice to meet you too adams
    ]Fefonz Quan: SL snow here today :)
    Adams Rubble is guilty. It may be the hat
    Gaya Ethaniel: ^^
    Adams Rubble: It snows even inside buildings
    Gaya Ethaniel looks up... and find a hole on the roof
    Gaya Ethaniel: Must get Storm to fix that ^^
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Did you attend Phenomenology discussions Fefonz?
    Fefonz Quan: not yet, bit planning to
    Fefonz Quan: have a problematic availability on my winter break here
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... ok
    Fefonz Quan: i was partially present at the first debate weels ago
    Fefonz Quan: did i miss all the fun?
    Gaya Ethaniel shakes her head... I don't know, those too late for me to attend
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I wish I could go, too...but I usually work that time.
    Adams Rubble: notes that it also is a bad time
    Fefonz Quan: what SLT are they?
    Adams Rubble: 2 pm
    Gaya Ethaniel: 2 pm
    Fefonz Quan: my 12am - doable, but not always
    ]Gaya Ethaniel nods... midnight
    Fefonz Quan: i feel like i interupted the discussion here
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's 11 pm for me so quite late too :P
    Gaya Ethaniel: We were talking about ESP, Phenomenology and so on
    Gaya Ethaniel: What do you think about ESP Fefonz?
    Fefonz Quan: could you be more specific?
    Gaya Ethaniel: mm... Corvi you mean... telepathy right?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes
    Adams Rubble getting signals that Corvi may not want to talk about this
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins. laughs.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: got that from telepathy, did you?
    Gaya Ethaniel: ^^
    Adams Rubble: it must be
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmhm
    Fefonz Quan: QED :)
    Fefonz Quan: I am on the sceptic side here (being a physicist...)
    Fefonz Quan: though i would define between "hunches" to real clear verbal reading or so
    Adams Rubble: We can get very close to people and anticipate what they may be thinking
    Gaya Ethaniel sits on 'I don't know' fence as usual on this one
    Fefonz Quan: that i surely believe
    Adams Rubble: especially when their thinking on a subject is close to our own
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Fefonz Quan: but i wouldn't call it ESP, would you?
    Adams Rubble: nope
    Gaya Ethaniel shakes not that one no...
    Fefonz Quan: maybe "being a woman" sometimes is enough
    efonz Quan: for that
    Adams Rubble: or a man
    Gaya Ethaniel: Have you read comments by Threedee and Adele about him helping her... something about brain functions? That was surprising... amazing in a way
    Fefonz Quan: sure, just my observational statistics here
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles. Being a woman is good ^^
    Fefonz Quan: where are those brain functions get in?
    Gaya Ethaniel looks up... one moment
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: rephrase that question, Fefonz?
    Fefonz Quan: Gaya mentioned something about brain functions a few lines ago
    Adams Rubble: Threedee and Adelene have reported experiences where Threedee got into Adelene's brain and helped her through a crisis
    Fefonz Quan: well that's impressive
    Fefonz Quan: i wonder if the "getting into brain" is in psycological issues or more accurate data tranformation
    Adams Rubble: Threedee is a neurologist
    Fefonz Quan: where there some sensors involved?
    Gaya Ethaniel: What kind of sensors?
    Fefonz Quan: MRI or other technolgical stuff
    Adams Rubble: This is beyond my understanding and I wouldn't want to misquote them
    Corvuscorva Nightfire recommends looking back at logs for more information.
    Adams Rubble: yes, I am wondering when it was
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but I don't think that this is something one dissects?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: looking for proof?
    Fefonz Quan: good recommendation, i'll try later
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: though one might try.
    Fefonz Quan: dissects?
    Fefonz Quan: i would say looking for experimantal evidence, not proof
    Adams Rubble: If you can't find it in the logs, I am sure they would be willing to fill you in
    Fefonz Quan: sure. lets go over it for now.
    Adams Rubble: no, no. THEY
    Adams Rubble: Threedee and Adelene
    Fefonz Quan: (i meant drop it for now)
    Adams Rubble: ah, sorry
    Adams Rubble: Easy to misunderstand in text
    Gaya Ethaniel: Tricksy topic it seems ^^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: well, yes!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    Fefonz Quan: i do feel that some people has "hightened sensitivity" to other people/feelings /situation, which results in some kind of "telepathy"
    Fefonz Quan: but this is a gray zone regarding
    Fefonz Quan: the fine data they can collect from sounds, body gestures and so on
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... you are talking about in-person RL situations Fefonz?
    Fefonz Quan: in this case yes
    Fefonz Quan: weren't you?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well, what 3D and Adele said wasn't in-person situations IIRC...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hence I had to refrain from saying out loud 'no way!' heheheh
    Fefonz Quan: well, i should be more careful with jumping into discussion at the middle... maybe i should just sit more quietly here and practice my PasBeing...
    [8:00]  Adams Rubble: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ^^ np Fefonz... I'd be interested to hear your thoughts of course
    Adams Rubble: We all would hope you would never feel you shouldn't jump in the middle of a conversation Fefonz
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Adams Rubble: It's what we all do best :)
    Adams Rubble: Makes PaB run
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well one can't remember what's been said in all PaB sessions ^^
    Adams Rubble: no, one can't :)
    Fefonz Quan: unless you're called google:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ^^
    Adams Rubble looks up at the name tag
    Adams Rubble: actually I came in the middle of the ESP discussion too. I have no idea how it started. I just gave my opinions anyway :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ^^


    We like to be intellectually entertained.


    Corvuscorva Nightfire: getting back to simpletons (pokes Gaya mischeviously). I thnk that the simple fact is, there are lots of explanations for what people call esp or telepathy...and that the slipperiness of the concept makes me nervous.
    Gaya Ethaniel jumps slightly
    Fefonz Quan: nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... ok
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and the problem with that for me, is the parallels it has with the idea of being.
    Fefonz Quan: what parallels?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: there are alot of concepts around what being is, floating around.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's slippery.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: there is an experiental thing...but how does one know when to trust one's experience?
    ]Fefonz Quan: indeed it is. i thought one of the proncipals of the PaB experiment is trying to practice without to much discussion of concepts
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. hmm.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: good point. but we do.
    orvuscorva Nightfire: discuss concepts.
    Fefonz Quan: principals*
    Fefonz Quan: we do because we like to be intelectually entertained


    What is the effect that we're seeking?



    Adams Rubble: I think in some ways we go along and it just doesn't feel right; we are not getting the kind of effect we are seeking
    Fefonz Quan: what kind of effect are we seeking?
    Adams Rubble: That may be when we might question our understanding of the experience
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hm
    Adams Rubble: Fefonz, I think we all have our own personal view of what it is we are seeking
    Adams Rubble: for some it is nothing
    Fefonz Quan: i'm sure we have a view
    Gaya Ethaniel: Again... a simpleton talking here... I'm limited in my body/mind so I tend to think my experiences are limited also in a way...
    Gaya Ethaniel: I don't trust it to be... well [put your own words]


    Scientific method


    Fefonz Quan: i didn't say we shouldn't discuss concepts
    Fefonz Quan: when physicists have new theories, they discuss them but try to do experiments in order to define which theory is true
    Adams Rubble: yes the scientific method
    Adams Rubble: make hypotheses and test them
    Fefonz Quan: but the experiment should be the basis for the theory, and we have our own experiences here
    Adams Rubble: and then make new hypotheses when they don't work



    Claire Beltran: Though results can be biased or overlooked in favour of preconceived notions...
    Adams Rubble: report our experiences to the group
    Adams Rubble: get feedback from others
    Adams Rubble: and then try, try again
    Fefonz Quan: agree with the last ones
    Adams Rubble: yes Claire
    Gaya Ethaniel: And so it's nice that in this group people are comfortable in sharing [I hope]


    We work in different labs


    Fefonz Quan: it is very nice, since we work in such different labs
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ^^ what kind of lab you work in Fefonz? Physics did you say?
    Fefonz Quan: i meant our own personal lab when we do the PaB experiment
    Gaya Ethaniel: Or... psychology? can't recall well
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but Fefonz meant that each of us are a lab.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: an place where experience happens.
    Fefonz Quan: right corvi
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... that, lab yes ^^
    Fefonz Quan: and though it is peculiar, it does seem that although the labs are so different, there seems to be some common things lying beneath it
    Adams Rubble: yes :)


    We balance the slipperiness by holding hands


    Fefonz Quan: which makes this experience so fascinating for me
    Fefonz Quan: (the experience of the PaB group, not just the practice alone)
    Fefonz Quan: so in a sense we try to balance the "sliperiness" by holding hands.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Brilliant.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that's perfect.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Thank you.
    Adams Rubble: especially during those times when we forget our hypotheses and think they are everything
    Adams Rubble: forget they are hypotheses
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah. yes.
    Fefonz Quan: right.


    Borders for he being experience


    Fefonz Quan: the concepts for me , though so intruiging, are so obviously in the way sometimes
    Fefonz Quan: first we try to "observe without judgement",but after some discussion (not to mention traditional ideas like buddhism), the practice get some sense of "i know what to look for"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Fefonz Quan: "i should feel that" or "let go of that"
    Fefonz Quan: and in some sense it's another set of borders for the being experience
    Fefonz Quan: and tough i think we can't help it, it is still a little frustrating
    Fefonz Quan: like peeling an onion and creating new shells at the same time
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: And... so there are so many ways not to cry while peeling onions right
    Fefonz Quan: or should we just cry?
    Gaya Ethaniel: ^^
    Gaya Ethaniel: We probably know what to do already about that heheheh
    Fefonz Quan: i'm not sure (talking about myself only here)
    Adams Rubble: It's the best we can do...talk about ourselves
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Adams Rubble: we are our own laboratory rats


    Being is hard when in pain


    Fefonz Quan: i thought being is most hard when in pain, it's quite easy to "be" looking out of the window on a great beautiful day after youve earned the lottery or something  
    Adams Rubble: and we have to learn to drop the pain
    Adams Rubble: then we can see
    Adams Rubble: hard to do
    Fefonz Quan: for me "staying with it" sounds more like it
    Adams Rubble: Unfortunately I must go, have an appt.
    Adams Rubble: bye for now
    Fefonz Quan: Bye adams!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy your day Adams ^^
    Gaya Ethaniel: For me Fefonz, avoiding/not acknowledging 'pain' is problematic if that makes sense
    Fefonz Quan: did i mention avoiding?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I like better the idea of staying with it, too...
    Fefonz Quan: problematic in what sense Gaya?
    Gaya Ethaniel: No avoiding/not acknowledging is kind of my automatic response at times
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok maybe an example...
    Gaya Ethaniel: When it rains... I used to feel a bit down
    Fefonz Quan: i very common response i think
    Gaya Ethaniel: Just go straight to the 'feelings'
    Gaya Ethaniel: After the drought [was it last or 2 years ago, rain doesn't make me feel down anymore. I welcome it
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's all relative I found
    Gaya Ethaniel: So when I feel 'pain', I first acknowledge it... ah there is 'pain'
    Gaya Ethaniel: That helps me... not to get sucked into feeling 'pain'... am I making any sense?
    Fefonz Quan: a lot of sense
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I find it so easy to indulge in feelings... both good/bad, positive/negative. As I am rather sensitive, tend to feel it deeply and longer too
    Gaya Ethaniel: So creating a gap, sometimes by meditation and sometimes 9 sec or pause, helps...
    Fefonz Quan: nods
    Fefonz Quan: i feel that if i can do it, it does help a lot
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and that gap allows....?
    Gaya Ethaniel: In which I can ackowledge whatever they are...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I see.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Somehow it helps to 'get over' stuff easier
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Do what Fefonz?
    Fefonz Quan: do the gap , observing before diving into it
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah...
    Fefonz Quan: although sometimes it is like sitting on a vulcano, knowing it is going to blow, "observing" it but without the power to stop it
    Fefonz Quan: ...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, laughing a little.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes...
    Gaya Ethaniel ponders...
    Fefonz Quan: so hopefully practicing the small things will help with the vulcanoes later
    Gaya Ethaniel: I hope so too ^^
    Gaya Ethaniel: [for myself I mean]
    Fefonz Quan: i second that
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ^^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: You all are just the coolest cats.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Thank you for being so very smart.
    Fefonz Quan: i will have to go soon, Hanuka candles to light here, celebrating the victory of light over darkness
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ^^ you are
    Corvuscorva Nightfire whops you with a pillow.
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy your day Fefonz and enjoyed talking with you.
    Gaya Ethaniel giggles
    Fefonz Quan: thanks for the great discussion
    Gaya Ethaniel: Better go and tidy my inventory before dinner here too ^^
    Fefonz Quan: it was a pleasure
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: truly it was mine.
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