2008.12.24 13:00 - Rambleful meanings

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    Storm Nordwind was the guardian having exchanged slots with Fefonz who had kindly agreed to take over Storm's normal Thursday slot for this week only. The few comments are Storm's.

    Fael Illyar: Hi Storm :)
    Storm Nordwind: Hi!
    Fael Illyar: Merry Christmas Everyone :)
    Tarmel Udimo: hi storm
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Tarmel
    Fael Illyar: Hi Scathach :)
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Scáth!
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Fael, Storm:)
    Quilty Bookmite: Hi Scath and Storm.
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Quilty, Tarmel

    Even though two-thirds of the real world is not Christian, Christmas was evidently close to hearts of some of the people at the pavilion. So as Santa's midnight crept steadily towards us, there began a rambling conversation about the meanings behind a topical subject.

    Fael Illyar: I started thinking a moment ago about what it is, actually that Christmas is a celebration about, for christians...
    Tarmel Udimo: hi scath
    Quilty Bookmite: I was just attending to some last minute things before the chat.
    Fael Illyar: I realized that it's celebration for giving birth to a guiding self called Jesus, in yourself.
    Quilty Bookmite: What do you think it is a celebration of Fael?
    Quilty Bookmite: Ah.
    Fael Illyar: Hi Adams :)
    Quilty Bookmite: Hi Adams.
    Storm Nordwind: You think it is a guide for most? Or perhaps a purifier?
    Storm Nordwind: Hello Adams
    Fael Illyar: what would be the difference?
    Tarmel Udimo: hi adam
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Everyone :)
    Storm Nordwind: One helps you with the future. The other helps you with the past.
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Adams
    Adams Dubrovna: Big crowd today
    Quilty Bookmite: Probably going to be a lot quieter tomorrow.
    Adams Dubrovna: yes. So many Christians in the group :)
    Quilty Bookmite: :-)
    Fael Illyar: Storm, I understand guiding to be about both, really.
    Storm Nordwind: Potentially yes
    Quilty Bookmite: Well, as a non-Christian, I also celebrate Christmas. :-)
    Fael Illyar: [12:59] Fael Illyar: I started thinking a moment ago about what it is, actually that Christmas is a celebration about, for christians...
    Fael Illyar: [13:00] Fael Illyar: I realized that it's celebration for giving birth to a guiding self called Jesus, in yourself.
    Adams Dubrovna: and I thought it was about shopping
    Quilty Bookmite: If that is the case, something about Christianity makes more sense to me.
    Quilty Bookmite: One of the keys to Christianity is Jesus saying "I am the way, the truth and the light..." If Jesus is in every Christian, that makes more sense.
    Tarmel Udimo: I think this what its is meant to be when one is born again in jesus
    Quilty Bookmite: In other words, each Christian is the source of their own salvation.
    Quilty Bookmite: Makes sense.
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that's how I interpret it.
    Tarmel Udimo: interpretation is important
    Fael Illyar remember hearing a lot about accepting Jesus into your heart in bible school.
    Storm Nordwind: I wonder if that's how a historical Jesus would have interpreted it
    Quilty Bookmite: I have tended to see the negative side of that in the past - only Christians can have salvation.
    Tarmel Udimo: my understanding is that he wa part of a radicl break away group
    Tarmel Udimo: a very orthodox group
    Adams Dubrovna: As with any tradition, many Christians see these issues different;y
    Fael Illyar: the most important core points are there in Christianity. All is forgiven, as long as you confess.
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes, I've heard that too. A Rabbi in fact.
    Tarmel Udimo: that islotaed themselves from the rest of the other jews
    Quilty Bookmite: There have always been such groups in Judaism.
    Adams Dubrovna: It is not clear what group the historical Jesus may have been from
    Tarmel Udimo: esscenes (spelling?)
    Adams Dubrovna: maybe
    Fael Illyar: does it actually say anywhere in the bible that none but Christians can have salvation by the way?
    Quilty Bookmite: I think so. One sec...
    Storm Nordwind is not sure what is meant by salvation
    Quilty Bookmite: I think salvation means entering heaven.
    Adams Dubrovna: In literal Christian terms, yes, it means heaven
    Quilty Bookmite: Just looking up the quote and waiting for my browser.
    Tarmel Udimo: the assumption is based on some cristians believing that man/woman is born into sin
    Storm Nordwind nods. I see. I guess I have views about that too as a Buddhist ;)
    Tarmel Udimo: and therefore needs saving
    Quilty Bookmite: Original sin. That's a difficult one too.
    Tarmel Udimo: hummm the problem is one of interpretation
    Tarmel Udimo: in the original i don't believe it ws original sin
    Adams Dubrovna: The idea of sin carries a good deal of baggage
    Fael Illyar: I tend to interpret the original sin as interpreting the world. Using words.
    Quilty Bookmite: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6)
    Adams Dubrovna: It also allows people to be judgemental
    Adams Dubrovna: about others
    Fael Illyar: judging things good or bad
    Storm Nordwind: People will take any excuse to be judgemental!
    Fael Illyar: to be more precise I guess

    Judgemental. Fundamental. That of course became a sub-topic.

    Quilty Bookmite: You could be right Tarmel. The bible has been through many interpretations.
    Tarmel Udimo: eating of the tree of good and evil was about wisdom and manifesting into human form
    Fael Illyar: Ah, leaving the paradise could parallel incarnating into the world as a human?
    Quilty Bookmite: Which is why I feel fundamentalism is such a problem. It is basing belief on something which is far from original.
    Fael Illyar: Hi Aurora :)
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Aurora
    Quilty Bookmite: hi Aurora
    Storm Nordwind waves to Aurora
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Aurora
    Aurora Kitaj: Hi Quilty, Storm, Scathach and Fael
    Tarmel Udimo: fundamentalism is based on a human need for control and power and has nothing to do with divinity
    Adams Dubrovna: ouch
    Aurora Kitaj: and Tarmel
    Quilty Bookmite: :-)
    Tarmel Udimo: hi aurora
    Quilty Bookmite: Said with feeling. :-)
    Aurora Kitaj: sorry late
    Quilty Bookmite: No problem.
    Storm Nordwind: I'm not sure Tarmel. In some cases it is simply a way of avoiding thinking things through. Laziness in another form.
    Quilty Bookmite: We are debating Christianity on this appropriate day. Not a subject that comes up much in these talks in my experience.
    Adams Dubrovna: It is a literal view of the Bible and it becomes very rigid, unbending. It is either on or off
    Quilty Bookmite: Anything positive about fundamentalism? :-)
    Tarmel Udimo: yes it can help people to get focused
    Tarmel Udimo: transformed
    Quilty Bookmite: It certainly attracts quite a following.
    Adams Dubrovna: Fundamentalism saved George Bush from the gutter and allowed him to become president of US. Not sure if that is such a good thing
    Storm Nordwind: There are lots of lazy people!
    Quilty Bookmite: Not in my book Adams.
    Quilty Bookmite: Maybe they are not lazy, maybe they have never been taught how to think for themselves.
    Tarmel Udimo: I agree or fortunate enough to be in contact with different thinking
    Tarmel Udimo: and yet there is always a person(s) who will break away from the group and think for themselves
    Quilty Bookmite: Different thinking is always around but fundamentalists often have ways of negating it.
    Adams Dubrovna: It seems to me that Christianity becomes an easy target
    Fael Illyar: The problem with Fundamentalism is that they forget that their own interpretation of whatever they're fundamentalist about might be wrong.
    Adams Dubrovna: There are numerous shades of Christianity
    Tarmel Udimo: i asumd we were talking fundamentalism in general
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes, I don;t mean to attack Christianity. I was actually trying to be positive about it.
    Quilty Bookmite: Fundamentalism on the other hand. ..
    Adams Dubrovna: All seems to get thrown out when people really are disagreeing with a few things that are heavily debated among many Christians
    Quilty Bookmite: Fundamentalism isn't exclusive to Christianity.
    Adams Dubrovna: Mystics of any religion have much in common
    Storm Nordwind: I wonder if it's possible to combine fundamentalism and compassion... hmmm...
    Adams Dubrovna: yes Quilty
    Adams Dubrovna: We use what works for us
    Tarmel Udimo: I am very fundamental in my approach to fundamentalism - wake up :)
    Storm Nordwind can no longer see through this box

    Fael had rezzed a box above the low fountain, hiding Quilty and Fael from my view for most of the rest of the session.

    Quilty Bookmite: I agree completely about mysticism. It is what drew me to Buddhism after reading about the mystical root in most religions.
    Adams Dubrovna: The thing that really gets people upset about fundamentalism is continued attempts to force it on the rest of us. Otherwise it is a live and let live situation
    Adams Dubrovna: It helps some people
    Tarmel Udimo: yes I think you've hit the nail on the head
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes, the evangelical approach.
    Adams Dubrovna: Take aay evangelicalism and sin and Christians are not half bad
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: what are you building storm?
    Fael Illyar: (the box is mine)
    Quilty Bookmite: True Adams. :-)
    Tarmel Udimo: ohhh
    Quilty Bookmite: Even some of my friends are Christian. :-)
    Adams Dubrovna: that's big of you Quilty :)
    Tarmel Udimo: smiles
    Quilty Bookmite: Ooh! I didn't see that!
    Fael Illyar: I think sin is an attempt to get a hold on attachments.
    Quilty Bookmite: Is it my Christmas present? :-)
    Adams Dubrovna: Not quite Fael. :)
    Adams Dubrovna: The so-called sins are not so different from what other traditions try to avoid
    Fael Illyar: (the image on the box is a squiggle I drew today)
    Quilty Bookmite: It's very nice. Artistic.
    Tarmel Udimo: for some people i helps to separate out the good from the evil
    Tarmel Udimo: and helps in seeing what one has done wrong....
    Aurora Kitaj: and 'maybe they have never been taught how to think for themselves.'
    Quilty Bookmite: There appears to be biological forms in the design.
    Adams Dubrovna: yes Aurora
    Aurora Kitaj: good and evil is a whole different topic area
    Quilty Bookmite: I think separating good from evil is an admirable pursuit if an impossible one. The world doesn't consist of black and white.
    Adams Dubrovna: Evil is one of those words I dislike
    Aurora Kitaj: same here
    Adams Dubrovna: It is a value judgement
    Fael Illyar: Yes, modern people are mostly taught to be fed what to believe through ... well, media.
    Fael Illyar: (which I'd consider rather evil, actually)
    Aurora Kitaj: community / faith leaders
    Tarmel Udimo: well perhaps its to do with the basic template - if you can only reach God through jesus another human rather than direct contact then this sets up
    Quilty Bookmite: If there is a battle or war we are taught to believe that one side is good and the other evil. Sometimes we are told which is which.
    Tarmel Udimo: a situation where a person has to be told what is right and wrong
    Adams Dubrovna: without the concept of evil, you can't have war
    Storm Nordwind: Which is why, Tarmel, mystics and seers prefer to make their own direct contact! :)
    Tarmel Udimo: war is fought for power and these days oil
    Tarmel Udimo: yes exactly
    Adams Dubrovna: But it is justified by the concept of evil
    Quilty Bookmite: This never used to be the case Adams. People used to go to war because they simply wanted to possess a piece of land and didn't have to justify themselves.
    Aurora Kitaj: perhaps that is one role of fundamentalism is to demonise
    Adams Dubrovna: Not so sure about that Quilty
    Quilty Bookmite: Needing moral justification I think is a fairly modern concept.
    Quilty Bookmite: _fairly_
    Tarmel Udimo: I favour the mystical approach myself
    Aurora Kitaj: creating moral justification isn't that new
    Storm Nordwind: How modern is modern Quilty?
    Adams Dubrovna: Well modern meaning less than 5000 years ago?
    Fael Illyar is struggling to be able to type with 3 gerbils running on her in RL.
    Quilty Bookmite: About 1000 years I would say.
    Quilty Bookmite: Gerbils are evil. :-)
    Aurora Kitaj: giggles
    Quilty Bookmite: But also very cute.
    Scathach Rhiadra: dis they not feel they had some moral or god-given right to whatever land they wanted?
    Adams Dubrovna: Depends on the culture. Gods told people to attack another people. People still had to be demonized in other cultures
    Quilty Bookmite: I guess I'm talking about feudal times when you did something simply because your lord and master told you to.
    Storm Nordwind: They still do
    Aurora Kitaj: is that the role of religion?
    Quilty Bookmite: I don't think religion has one single role.
    Aurora Kitaj: to create cohesion and community
    Storm Nordwind: It's a potential of some religions, to be usurped as a tool of power, sure
    Adams Dubrovna: I think religion is so often a cause because people believe so strongly they are right and others are wrong
    Aurora Kitaj: whilst differentiating itself from other religions
    Adams Dubrovna: One reason we need to learn to respect each others traditions
    Quilty Bookmite: Well said Adams.
    Storm Nordwind: That can be hard in some circumstances Adams
    Aurora Kitaj: yes completely agree, although it is a hard route
    Storm Nordwind: I would rather respect the person than the religion
    Tarmel Udimo: and yet really they all point to our fundamental :) need to know if there is a god or meaning or an intelligent life force
    Aurora Kitaj: requiring stout hearts
    Adams Dubrovna: Both sides have to respect Storm
    Storm Nordwind: It is hard to respect the religion itself if you don't respect the god or gods at the center of it
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Moon
    Fael Illyar: Hi Moon :)
    Adams Dubrovna: Well it is not a mater of respecting the gods....
    Tarmel Udimo: moooooon
    Aurora Kitaj: Hi Moon
    Moon Fargis: hello everyone happy christmas:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Moon:)
    Quilty Bookmite: Hi Moon.
    Adams Dubrovna: but a matter of respecting that people can see things very differently
    Storm Nordwind waves to Moon
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes, happy christmas. I don;t think it has been said yet. :-)
    Tarmel Udimo: merry merry
    Storm Nordwind: Exactly Adams. That is why i say it is easier for me to respect people rather than religions
    Quilty Bookmite: Wings seem to be in vogue so I thought I would wear a pair.
    Adams Dubrovna: Merry Christmas to all :)
    Tarmel Udimo: hahahahaha
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Aurora Kitaj: happy winter celebration
    Tarmel Udimo: nicely put... for the rest of the world - happy summer celebration
    Quilty Bookmite: I have no problem with happy Christmas. I have been telling my daughter that Santa is going to visit tonight. :-)
    Tarmel Udimo: smiles
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Aurora Kitaj: well spotted
    Tarmel Udimo: and yet I bet no matter how open minded we are in our thinking do we all still wander - is there a god
    Aurora Kitaj: Oh quick, I better get my hiking socks out again, dust them off
    Storm Nordwind: How many Tarmel? ;)
    Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
    Tarmel Udimo: creative life force is a far as i have got
    Quilty Bookmite: I wander what god is supposed to be.
    Quilty Bookmite: Or wonder even. :-)
    Aurora Kitaj: Wow, that's a big xmas card
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: smiles
    Tarmel Udimo: well we know we're alive and imbued with life so...
    Quilty Bookmite: Is that what it's meant to be Fael?
    Fael Illyar: this squiggle? maybe :)
    Fael Illyar: I don't know :)
    Moon Fargis still dont know what squiggle means :)
    Quilty Bookmite: Maybe it means peace and goodwill to all/
    Quilty Bookmite: Christian or not, it's a good sentiment. :-)
    Quilty Bookmite: Or maybe it just means the badgers are mowing the lawn.
    Fael Illyar: squiggle
     n 1: a short twisting line [syn: curlicue]
     2: an illegible scrawl; "his signature was just a squiggle but
     only he could make that squiggle"
    Moon Fargis: hmm cool
    Moon Fargis: a particle christmas tree
    Quilty Bookmite: Was that tree there before?
    Quilty Bookmite: Ah.
    Quilty Bookmite: Nice.
    Tarmel Udimo: well its christmas day and people are arriving must go and be sociable and start eating and rinking in true christams spirit
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Moon Fargis slurps his beer and eats some candy
    Tarmel Udimo: but I'll also say a prayer for those of us who don't have enough to eat...or drink...
    Aurora Kitaj: :)
    Quilty Bookmite: Bye Tarmel. Happy christmas.
    Storm Nordwind: OK Tarmel. Blessings!
    Fael Illyar: See you later Tarmel :)
    Adams Dubrovna: bye Tarmel
    Fael Illyar: Have a nice Christmas :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Tarmel, happy holiday:)
    Fael Illyar: and new year too :)
    Tarmel Udimo: bye my friends in the light of PAB....
    Aurora Kitaj: bye Tarmel,:)
    Tarmel Udimo: sorry adam
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Quilty Bookmite: It seems Tarmel has taken the conversation with her.
    Moon Fargis gave you Candy Apple Child v1 pink edition(wear).
    Adams Dubrovna: ty Moon
    Moon Fargis: ^_^ *Nahm Nahm Nahm!* ^_^
    Storm Nordwind: But not the peace :)
    Quilty Bookmite: Thanks Moon.
    Scathach Rhiadra: ty Moon:)
    Moon Fargis: ahh hmm seesm the anim isnt played
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes. The peace remains. And the goodwill. :-)
    Storm Nordwind notices how the tree is chewing up the particles. The fountain is rather sparse now!
    Quilty Bookmite: I must be going soon. I am sitting on the sofa bed where my mother-in-law is sleeping tonight.

    Fael seemed desperate to get people's comments on the pattern on her floating box

    Fael Illyar: well, since no conversation is left, would you mind talking about your impressions about my squiggle?
    Quilty Bookmite: As I said before, it looks rather organic.
    Adams Dubrovna: very nice Fael :)
    Moon Fargis gave you Candy Apple Pink v1.1.
    Adams Dubrovna: I have to go too. Bye everyone :)
    Quilty Bookmite: Bye Adams.
    Storm Nordwind: Bye Adams
    Scathach Rhiadra: its a very nice squiggle:)
    Moon Fargis: See you later!
    Fael Illyar: I was more like asking what comes to mind looking at it
    Fael Illyar: See you later Adams :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye adams
    Quilty Bookmite: I must be going too. Have a great Christmas.
    Moon Fargis: fael; flowers around fujis sunrise
    Fael Illyar: See you later Quilty :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: namasté
    Storm Nordwind: Bye Quilty
    Fael Illyar: Fuji's sunrise?
    Moon Fargis: jep mount fuji
    Moon Fargis: fujiyama
    Storm Nordwind: A walrus
    Fael Illyar ponders 'I quite didn't think it has flowers in it.'
    Moon Fargis: ah wel plants
    Scathach Rhiadra: I see a bird in it
    Moon Fargis: yes a bird also works
    Aurora Kitaj: me too
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I think I kind of see a swan in it :)

    People started to get up, ride ponies, skate on stone ... or did it only seem that way due to the Christmas Spirit?

    Fael Illyar: Ah, Moon has a pony :)
    Moon Fargis: hihi yes aurora gave it
    Moon Fargis: thankies
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Moon Fargis: hehe
    Moon Fargis: cool
    Aurora Kitaj: my pleasure, great in a night club I find
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Moon Fargis: ^^
    Aurora Kitaj: bye every one,
    Storm Nordwind: Bye Aurora
    Fael Illyar: See you later Aurora :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Aurora,
    Moon Fargis: ^.^
    Moon Fargis: so now.. party
    Scathach Rhiadra: ty aurora
    Fael Illyar smiles at Storm.
    Scathach Rhiadra: nice moves Storm:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: I must be off too, namasté everyone:)
    Storm Nordwind: Bye then!
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