2008.12.25 13:00 - Being, dreaming and talking

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    The guardian and commenter for this meeting is Fefonz.


    It's Christmas eve, and the audience was small. Scathach & Fefonz are the first to appear 

    Fefonz Quan: Hello Scathach!
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
    Scathach Rhiadra: and how are you ?
    Fefonz Quan: i'm great :)
    Fefonz Quan: and you?
    Scathach Rhiadra: very well too:)
    Fefonz Quan: are you a non-christmas celebrator too?
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, definitely:)
    Fefonz Quan: well that makes two of us :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: I enjoy the time off work though:)
    Fefonz Quan: me too,big times, took a flight home for the winter break
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, very nice:)
    Fefonz Quan: since it's my first time as a guardian - are there more things to do besides recording?
    Scathach Rhiadra: not unless any one new turns up
    Scathach Rhiadra: then do you have a notecard to give them?
    Fefonz Quan: HI Tarmel!
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tarmel:)
    Tarmel Udimo: hi scath & efonz
    Fefonz Quan: don't think so, let me check
    Fefonz Quan: well i do have some notecards on my inventory
    Scathach Rhiadra: the PaB one?
    Fefonz Quan: Basics of , yes
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)


    Tarmel enters the pavilion

    Tarmel Udimo: are you both hvaing a good day/night
    Tarmel Udimo: *having
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, and you?
    Tarmel Udimo: yes
    Fefonz Quan: seems like we all arae :)
    Fefonz Quan: are*
    Scathach Rhiadra: good:)
    Tarmel Udimo: smiles
    Fefonz Quan: any new thoughts /experiments concerning PasB?
    Fefonz Quan: (feels obliged to move the talk on being a guardian, not sure this is necessary)
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: a little motivation never hurt :)


    a new visitor - laise89 joins for a short while, giving Fefonz the opportunity to demonstrate his (lack of) mastery in SL features and welcome procedures.

    laise89 Oller: hello
    Scathach Rhiadra nods agreement
    Fefonz Quan: you didn't meet my army commender :)
    Tarmel Udimo: hi laise
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello laise
    Fefonz Quan: Hello laise
    laise89 Oller: i am from Brazil
    Tarmel Udimo: have you been here before?
    Tarmel Udimo: in play as being pavillion?
    laise89 Oller: hi
    laise89 Oller: no
    Tarmel Udimo: okay fefonz will TELL YOU ALL ABOUT US.... :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :))
    Fefonz Quan: :)))
    Scathach Rhiadra: I see you are new to Second Life Laise
    Fefonz Quan: i tried to give a notecard but didn't think it got through...
    laise89 Oller accepted your inventory offer.
    Scathach Rhiadra: anybody any topic they would like to discuss?
    Tarmel Udimo: i just gave laise a note card
    Tarmel Udimo: please have a read and this will explain what we do here...
    Tarmel Udimo: scath why not explain to laise what we do ie the 9 secs
    Tarmel Udimo: or fefonz
    Scathach Rhiadra: I don't know if Laise is still with us
    Tarmel Udimo: she's back now
    Fefonz Quan: i am here, gave her the card a few mins. ago
    Tarmel Udimo: okay
    Fefonz Quan: but didn't manage to explain much till now
    Tarmel Udimo: well any pab experiences
    laise89 Oller: okay


    Moving to discuss the Phenomenology first exercise


    Tarmel Udimo: has anyone tried pema's exercise
    Fefonz Quan: do you mean the phenomenolgy one?
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: yes
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, I just posted my lab report:)
    Fefonz Quan: just red about it in the last mail, still needs to catch up and try it myself
    Fefonz Quan: read*
    Tarmel Udimo: feel like telling us
    Scathach Rhiadra: well, it was hard to figure out exactly what we were doing at first, spent a lot of time thinking about it
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Scathach Rhiadra: then realised it was about the experience, not the philosophy
    Tarmel Udimo: smiles and nods..
    laise89 Oller: goody bye
    Scathach Rhiadra: so, I just tried to describe changing my perspective of how I see the world
    Tarmel Udimo: bye
    Fefonz Quan: bye
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Laise
    laise89 Oller: thank you!
    Scathach Rhiadra: you are welcome
    Scathach Rhiadra: basically by doing a small meditation
    Tarmel Udimo: okay
    Fefonz Quan: i've read your report, and it was different from the others
    Fefonz Quan: in the sense that the others tried to "be" the object on the second stage
    Tarmel Udimo: where are the reports by the way?
    Fefonz Quan: was that the description of the task?
    Fefonz Quan: (i saw it on the groups email)
    Scathach Rhiadra: more to experience yourself as object, didn't necessarily mean to 'be' another object
    Scathach Rhiadra: or so it seemed to me, and I may be wrong:)
    Fefonz Quan: experiencing as object, is there a subject?
    Fefonz Quan: or object as "non sentient object"
    Tarmel Udimo: hi dolores
    Dolores Erin: hi? hare krishna?
    Fefonz Quan: hi dolores


    Shifting of perception is in mind now

    Scathach Rhiadra: hmmm, I found shifting awareness as it were, to watching myself seems to make me an 'object', just like any other object
    Dolores Erin: hi merry christmas
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Dolores
    Tarmel Udimo: gone
    Tarmel Udimo: did you 'feel' like an object?
    Scathach Rhiadra: more like a perception, just like any other perceptions
    Scathach Rhiadra: if that makes any sense:)
    Fefonz Quan: where you looking at some special part as leg/hand doing this?
    Scathach Rhiadra: well I found I felt more centred in by body, more aware of sensations of movement
    Scathach Rhiadra: withour being concious of them
    Fefonz Quan: aware without being concious of?
    Fefonz Quan: i need some explanation here
    Scathach Rhiadra: maybe I mean without trying to be concious of them, like in walking meditation
    Fefonz Quan: likewithout puuting effort or focusing on them?
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes
    Fefonz Quan: putting*
    Tarmel Udimo: do you find you can access that shifted perception when not doing an 'exercise'?
    Scathach Rhiadra: sometimes, after meditation, there is a slight shift in awareness, I find
    Fefonz Quan: i find that too
    Scathach Rhiadra: it is very subtle, and doesn't last long:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: or maybe I need to practice more:)
    Fefonz Quan: i felt that longer sessions, like a day/weekend retreat leves more footprint
    Fefonz Quan: leaves
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Scathach Rhiadra: I would like to be able to achieve the same with the 9 secs:)
    Tarmel Udimo: I think we have access to these other states at all times and in fact you are probably doing it more than you think
    Fefonz Quan: 9+9+9... they accumulate :)
    Tarmel Udimo: I call it the blink technique :-))
    Scathach Rhiadra: I agree Tarmel, and it is not always after meditation for me, can be in some quite unexpected ways
    Scathach Rhiadra: but meditation seems to provide the 'focusing' if that is the right word
    Fefonz Quan: did you find that experience to feel comfortable or "nice"?
    Fefonz Quan: (i ask because i fell so sometimes, and wonders if that is the goal)
    Fefonz Quan: feel*
    Scathach Rhiadra: that is a difficult one:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: It feels comfortable, but also very 'alive' or 'alert' at the same time
    Tarmel Udimo: ys that is my expereince more alert
    Tarmel Udimo: less personal
    Fefonz Quan: 'walking on air' like?
    Tarmel Udimo: hummmm in a way for me more grounded
    Tarmel Udimo: but with space around it
    Fefonz Quan: that's a nice way to put it
    Tarmel Udimo: smiles
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, not elated or anything like that, more aware of the moment
    Tarmel Udimo: hummm and therefore not so ladened with personality traits
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: and not looking to the next or previous experience
    Tarmel Udimo: hummm just being there
    Scathach Rhiadra: exactly:))
    Tarmel Udimo: grins...


    Being vs. communicating - opposites or complements?

    Fefonz Quan: does it feel like communicating with someone might break the spell in tis situation?
    Fefonz Quan: this*
    Fefonz Quan: meaning that the "aloness" is more convenient for it?
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, it feels like a very delicate experience, the slightest distraction, and it is gone:)
    Fefonz Quan: i feel that too many times
    Fefonz Quan: and it bothers me
    Fefonz Quan: because i wouldn't expect our practice (or any other awareness practice) to be on the non-social side
    Scathach Rhiadra: well, I have also found that I am more centred after the experience, so maybe If i could have it more it would become more stable
    Tarmel Udimo: peraps its a matter of always refocusing... I almost think its like tending a fire it dis down you fan it and it rises again
    Tarmel Udimo: *perhaps
    Tarmel Udimo: *dies
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, that is a good picture:)
    Fefonz Quan: mostly because starting a fire is also not so easy ...:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: true:)
    Tarmel Udimo: hummm it takes away the effort or struggling or thinking one isn't doing it right etcetc
    Fefonz Quan: and it's much more easy to maintain it then to start over when it's gone
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Tarmel Udimo: its an ebbing.. a constant refocusing...
    Tarmel Udimo: and there will always be a small ember waiting for you to fan it into a giant flame
    Fefonz Quan: very poetic tarmel :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: and the 9 secs provides an oppurtunity to keep refocusing regularly
    Tarmel Udimo: yes excatly - and if the fire dies out - well just gather more fire and start another one...
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: *wood I mean
    Scathach Rhiadra: so, are you both going to do the experiment?
    Fefonz Quan: yep
    Fefonz Quan: (for me)
    Tarmel Udimo: yes I have I haven't posted it yet. naughty girl :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: heehee:)
    Tarmel Udimo: when's the next meeting?
    Fefonz Quan: i once had an experience of looking on my hands as objects
    Scathach Rhiadra: tomorrow night/day at 2pm SLT
    Fefonz Quan: in 6 hours?
    Tarmel Udimo: ta
    Tarmel Udimo: 24hrs
    Fefonz Quan: oh, the pheno one
    Scathach Rhiadra: which meeting:))
    Tarmel Udimo: yes should have been more specific
    Tarmel Udimo: the pheno one
    Fefonz Quan: is it in the kira cafe or here?


    The discussion takes an interesting new direction - towards methods to awake from a dream. The knowledge of being in a dream and nested dreams followed...

    Tarmel Udimo: I do remember reading somewhere that if you want to wake up in your dream you must focus on your hands
    Scathach Rhiadra: Kira Cafe
    Fefonz Quan: i have other methods :)
    Tarmel Udimo: ohhh do tell
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes:)
    Fefonz Quan: well, the audience have asked for ti, soooo
    Fefonz Quan: when i was very young, one method was to jump from tall buildings, so the inability to really get hurt woke me up
    Tarmel Udimo: and were you awake in your dream?
    Scathach Rhiadra: in your dream, or really awake?
    Tarmel Udimo: we both ask:)
    Fefonz Quan: no, really awake,
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah
    Fefonz Quan: surely it demanded that i now i am dreaming in the dream
    Fefonz Quan: know*
    Tarmel Udimo: good point..
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Fefonz Quan: i did had some cases where i thought i woke up in my bad, and found out this is another dream - nested dreams i guess
    Fefonz Quan: this was quite spooky...
    Scathach Rhiadra: I have had a few dreams where I knew I was dreaming, not have never tried to have them
    Tarmel Udimo: nested dreams what a great description
    Fefonz Quan: well,sounds great, but then even when you are awake, you are still very supicious :/
    Fefonz Quan: suspicious*
    Tarmel Udimo: humm
    Fefonz Quan: then lately,
    Fefonz Quan: i found that just knowing i'm in a dream, i can stop it mentally
    Scathach Rhiadra: did you ever read the chineese story of the butterfly's dream
    Fefonz Quan: i know the story (who's dreaming who?)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :))
    Fefonz Quan: though when i stoped it, in the dream i just knew it will stop, i didn't know where i would wake up
    Tarmel Udimo: phone brb
    Fefonz Quan: (what is brb?)
    Scathach Rhiadra: be right back
    Scathach Rhiadra: like awk
    Scathach Rhiadra: afk*
    Fefonz Quan: awk-awake from keyboard ?:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: away
    Fefonz Quan: yep, i knew it
    Scathach Rhiadra: :))
    Fefonz Quan: how did we got to discuss my dreams? - ah from looking at the hands

    And back to communication and words vs. Being


    Scathach Rhiadra: yes

    Fefonz Quan: concerning the self awareness/perception vs. communication, it eminds me of a discussion i had with a friend today
    Fefonz Quan: reminds*
    Scathach Rhiadra: oh?
    Fefonz Quan: i discussed the idea of "experiencing without perception", and we got to the insight that even if it can be achieved, Communicating it MUST use concepts
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Scathach Rhiadra: the big problem is words:)
    Fefonz Quan: exactly, we wondered if body language counts as concepts or not
    Tarmel Udimo: hi folks - breakfast is calling - was great talking to you both have a great christmas
    Fefonz Quan: bye tarmel!
    Scathach Rhiadra: night Tarmel:)
    Tarmel Udimo: bye y'all
    Scathach Rhiadra: well, body language would be perceptions as well, would it not?
    Scathach Rhiadra: for the perceiver
    Fefonz Quan: perceptions, but not concepts
    Fefonz Quan: we have perceptions in our experience alone too, don't we?
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes
    Fefonz Quan: i thought it is vague too, but the problem indeed is much more apparent in words
    Scathach Rhiadra: agreed
    Scathach Rhiadra: the same word can mean so many different things to different people
    Fefonz Quan: exactly, and it also can never fully describe the experience, just give a short non-accurate description
    Scathach Rhiadra: true, I found it very difficult to write that short report, couldn't find the words:)
    Fefonz Quan: maybe tihs is also the reason for the difficulty we mentioned earlier
    Fefonz Quan: concerning the focusing state that is interrupted by communication
    Scathach Rhiadra: hmmm, yes it could be
    Fefonz Quan: because in the minute we try to put it in word, we have in some sense leave the "being" state in order to formulate the words
    Scathach Rhiadra nods:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: well, I will have to go now, see you tomorrow, take care:)
    Fefonz Quan: me too, it's night here already
    Scathach Rhiadra: here also
    Fefonz Quan: night then, see you tommorow
    Scathach Rhiadra: namasté
    Fefonz Quan: namaste

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