2008.12.27 07:00 - the Cloud of Unknowing

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    I, Pema, was the guardian that morning.  I Found Geo and Corvi already in conversation when I arrived.

    Geo Netizen: How about your holidays?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: really/
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: in what way, Geo?
    Geo Netizen: hi Pema
    Pema Pera: hi there, Corvi and Geo!
    Pema Pera: Hi Steve!
    Geo Netizen: Hi Steve
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Steve, Pema...
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello, I can only stay a bit
    Geo Netizen nods
    Pema Pera: we appreciate every bit of you, Steve!
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Geo, it;s been a while
    stevenaia Michinaga: ...smiles
    Geo Netizen: Hi Adams
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Adams.
    Geo Netizen: Hi Delani
    Pema Pera: Hi Delani!!!
    Delani Gabardini: hi all
    Pema Pera: Good seeing you again!!
    Pema Pera: and Hi Adams!
    Adams Rubble: Hello everyone :)
    Pema Pera: How's life, Delani?
    Delani Gabardini: fairly wekk
    Delani Gabardini: well
    Pema Pera: ah :)
    Delani Gabardini: i have to leave fro a few mins
    Delani Gabardini: will be rite back
    Geo Netizen nods
    Geo Netizen: Hi Umbriel
    Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
    Pema Pera: Hi Umbriel!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Umbriel :)
    Umbriel Levenque: Did all have good Christmas?
    Pema Pera: I had hardly any, which was very good :-)
    Pema Pera: it's a normal workday in Japan
    Umbriel Levenque: Shame... that
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Umbriel.
    Pema Pera: When I grew up, December 5 was the big day, not Christmas, in Holland
    Pema Pera: the day of Santa Claus
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)

    I brought up my favortie topic of `appearance' and Geo brought up Husserl.

    Pema Pera: Has anybody befriended appearances lately, if I may ask?
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera: I know Adams befriended a spoon, just now . . . .
    Adams Rubble has been working at it
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, read that
    Pema Pera: how quick you all are!
    Geo Netizen: One of my presents this year was Logical Investigations
    Pema Pera: WOW!
    Pema Pera: all 1000+ pages of it??
    Geo Netizen: Now I just have to find the time to read it :)
    Pema Pera: I found it very helpful, as a way to understand Ideas
    Pema Pera: written 13 years later
    Pema Pera: (sorry: Husserl's works)
    Adams Rubble: ah
    Pema Pera: It was through reading Logical Investigations that I finally got into Plato much deeper
    Pema Pera: I was walking along the Charles River in Cambridge, MA, after reading yet another 100 pages of Husserl
    Pema Pera: oh, 15 years ago,
    Pema Pera: and suddenly I stopped, while watching a tree
    Pema Pera: and realizing the enormity of how this tree was unique
    Pema Pera: yet I approached it as a collective something, with a general label "tree"
    Pema Pera: and I realized that I was like living in one country and speaking the language of another
    Pema Pera: like going to Germany and speaking French
    Pema Pera: we live in a world of unique objects
    Pema Pera: but we only use the language of general classes of objects
    Pema Pera: that realization really shook me . . . . .
    Geo Netizen: We seem constructed to extract generalities from the world

    I enjoyed a kind of Husserlian deconstruction.

    Pema Pera: yes, but . . . is there a world? Or is that the most superduper generality????
    Geo Netizen: Perhaps better to say extract generalities from our experiences
    Pema Pera: but even "our" is a generality . . . .
    Pema Pera: and "experiences" . . . .
    Corvuscorva Nightfire considers...
    Pema Pera: we have no leg to stand on, it seems !
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: we name a group of "objects" Pema...
    Pema Pera: That's the vertigo I experienced upon reading Husserl
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and Pema is unique in all the world...
    Pema Pera: yes, Corvi?
    Geo Netizen smiles
    Pema Pera: a name, yes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but disassembling Pema...doesn't make him less himself.
    Pema Pera: but the notion "name" is again a generality
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    stevenaia Michinaga: is uniqueness a human label?
    Pema Pera: hahaha, don't even think about it!
    Pema Pera: <- disassembling me
    Pema Pera: uniqueness is another generality word!!!!!
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: my point is...there is a world...as there is a Pema.
    Pema Pera: can't escape the spider web of generatlities. . . .
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: no...
    Pema Pera: is there a world?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods emphatically...yes..as there is a Pema.
    Pema Pera: there are appearances, for sure, but a world???
    stevenaia Michinaga: or is there a world because we say there is
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: totally willing to disassemble it...but totally willing to call this group of "things" a world...
    Pema Pera: there is the appearance of a world, yes
    Pema Pera: and a name for that appearance, yes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire considers....

    Starting with Descartes.

    Geo Netizen: I have to go with Descartes … there is something and I experience it … labels are arbitrary but useful
    Pema Pera: there is the experience, and there is the experience of an additional believe that the first experience pertains to the existence of something, yes, but . . . is there really something????
    Pema Pera: and if so, what?
    Pema Pera: cf. dream or movie experience
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: no..but the sum of the nothings is still Pema...
    stevenaia Michinaga: Thank you I must go, have a good day
    Pema Pera: bye Steve!
    Adams Rubble: bye Steve
    Geo Netizen: Bye Steve
    Umbriel Levenque: Good day stevenaia
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye STeve.
    Pema Pera: well, we can use the same label Pema, but how similar or connected are subsequent appearances of Pema?
    Geo Netizen: Again …. ‘I think’ …. that provides a starting point … else we enter sophistry
    Pema Pera: Perhaps Pema is totally free to be totally different from moment to moment . . .
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera: Geo, that is interesting!
    Pema Pera: shall we go slowly?
    Geo Netizen nods
    Pema Pera: "I think" is an experience
    Pema Pera: more accurately, an appearance
    Pema Pera: there is the appearance of a thought of "I" and of a thought of "think"
    Pema Pera: but is there an I and a thought, beyond the appearance of those two?
    Pema Pera: or even more radical, if I may
    Pema Pera: there is the *presence* of the appearance
    Pema Pera: most bare bones

    But what about appearance?

    Geo Netizen: If 'think' is an appearance, what is it an appearance of?
    Pema Pera: we don't know
    Corvuscorva Nightfire is totally comfortable with Pema ness being a swirl of related things that don't settle into a solid form....and shift often.
    Pema Pera: we only know that the appearance is here, is present -- the presence of appearance is the one and only aspect that is truly, undubitably given directly, empirically
    Pema Pera: yes, Corvi, what I would call appearances
    Geo Netizen: How do we know that appearance is here, is present?
    Pema Pera: there is something, not nothing, can we agree upon that, just to go slowly, as a start?
    Geo Netizen nods
    Corvuscorva Nightfire feels a little easier with that to begin with...
    Geo Netizen: Yes lets agree there is something
    Pema Pera: beyond that, what else can we really say?
    Pema Pera: beyond the presence of something that appears?
    Geo Netizen: But is not thought more fundamental then appearance?
    Pema Pera: really?
    Pema Pera is tremendously appreciating this discussion!
    Adams Rubble: Just for the slowness sake. When you say "I" is an appearance are you including the flesh and blood body that is sitting at our keyboards?
    Pema Pera: let's keep going very slowly, yes
    Pema Pera: no no no flesh and blood are interpretations
    Pema Pera: way way removed from direct empirical givenness
    Geo Netizen knows he arguing out of his old scholastics background :)
    Adams Rubble: well, the body then

    Where/how to start . . .

    Pema Pera: let's start again: there is something, not nothing -- how do we know?
    Pema Pera: there is the presence of something appearing
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins and pokes him...we kinda need that....
    Pema Pera: we all agree upon that, right?
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Pema Pera: I love scholasticism, Geo!
    Pema Pera: as you can tell . . . .
    Pema Pera: agreed?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Umbriel Levenque: Yes
    Adams Rubble: OK
    Pema Pera: what is next, what else can we *really* agree upon?
    Pema Pera: besides the presence of appearance of who-knows-what?
    Pema Pera: Thought?
    Geo Netizen: But for appearance to have any substance it must be perceived
    Pema Pera: how do you know that?
    Umbriel Levenque: Must it?
    Pema Pera: is that a theory or an observation?
    Geo Netizen: Theory of course
    Pema Pera: and why substance?
    Pema Pera: we are going very slow, haven't introduced substance yet . . . .
    Pema Pera: nobody can deny that there is the presence of appearance (which we can appreciate!!)
    Pema Pera: but I can deny anything beyond that, I think . . .
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I imagine you can.
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: but funny as it may sound is has an absolutely central application:
    Pema Pera: it means that I can 100% appreciate the presence of appearance without any need for judgment or prejudice or any habitual addition

    The question of the observer.

    Geo Netizen: If appearance is the sensory, or phenomenal, aspect of existence to an observer, does it not require an observer?
    Pema Pera: all those words are latecomers, Geo
    Pema Pera: and I am happy to call them all theory, speculation if you like
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: what is appearance then?
    Pema Pera: there is the appearance of an observer, sure
    Pema Pera: but appearance is the one thing given, atomic, axiomatic, if you need labels
    Pema Pera: the raw stuff of reality
    Pema Pera: and if you look at it, and let it open, you find something akin to nuclear energy -- a metaphor, for sure, but a powerful one
    Pema Pera: sadness? look into it as phenomenon, and drop EVERYTHING else, and you'll be amazed at the power right there . . . . the beauty the bliss
    Pema Pera: "dropping body and mind" as they say in Zen . . . going through the valley of the shadows of death - is that the Christian term?
    Geo Netizen: Hi Twang
    Twang Rexen: hiya
    Pema Pera: Hi Twang!
    Umbriel Levenque: Hello Twang :-)
    Adams Rubble: Hi Twang
    Adams Rubble: Jewish term
    Geo Netizen: Are you new to the group?
    Twang Rexen: I've visited once or twice before
    Geo Netizen nods
    Twang Rexen: so yes ;)
    Pema Pera: welcome back, Twang!
    Twang Rexen: ty Pema
    Pema Pera: We're just talking about what we really can say there is :-)
    Pema Pera: Geo, does that make sense, what I am trying to say?
    Twang Rexen: sure :)
    Pema Pera: (Twang, I'm arguing that all we can know is that something appears, nothign more :)
    Geo Netizen: Much of it make great sense but

    And the question of the status of the observer.

    Geo Netizen: I’m still thinking the observer (not yet defined) is more core than appearances
    Pema Pera: really? how so?
    Geo Netizen: Appearances as we use the term makes no sense in the absence of an observer
    Twang Rexen: hmm i disagree appearnces is what we perceive our own situation or self to be
    Pema Pera: but in a dream, we assume that the dream body and dream personality is the "obverser" but then we realize upon waking that that was all a big mistake . . . .
    Geo Netizen: Hi Moon
    Adams Rubble: Hi Moon
    Umbriel Levenque: Hello Moon :-)
    Twang Rexen: Hello Moon
    Pema Pera: but what is a "self" Twang, and what is a "situation" -- those are theories, not directly given in an undeniable way
    Pema Pera: Hi Moon!
    Moon Fargis: ^^/
    Twang Rexen: but then isnt the observer?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire is stuck on I/Thou
    Pema Pera: there is the appearance of an observer
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Moon!
    Adams Rubble can understand the that appearnces can happen without an observer but wonders that the observer doesn't seem to have relevance to us
    Pema Pera: in a movie there is the appearance of all kind of things -- but it's only light, no substance
    Umbriel Levenque: Only?
    Geo Netizen: or are we only separated by substance by time?
    Geo Netizen: *from substance
    Pema Pera: (the reason to reason this way, by the way, is the liberation that can occur when you really drop all but appearances -- an incredible kind of opening ; I'm not trying to play an intellectual game)
    Moon Fargis purrzzzzzzzzz
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Geo Netizen nods
    Pema Pera: only in a substance way, Umbriel -- there is the story too, for sure
    Pema Pera: there is no time, no substance, no we, Geo
    Pema Pera: once that is seen, reality opens
    Umbriel Levenque: Then I'm not so sure about what substance means...
    Twang Rexen: or reality?
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: all appearances . . . .
    Pema Pera: with labels that are other appearances .. . ..

    We shifted to medieval literature.

    Pema Pera: Geo, have you read Meister Eckhart?
    Geo Netizen: No
    Moon Fargis giggles
    Pema Pera: he comes very close to these views
    Pema Pera: you'd enjoy reading him
    Pema Pera: How about the Cloud of Unknowing, if I may ask?
    Geo Netizen nods
    Geo Netizen: Yes
    Pema Pera: that's the spirit I am trying to follow, in that spirit I mean
    Pema Pera: to unknow what can be unknown
    Pema Pera: and everything can be unknown except the presence of appearance
    Geo Netizen is thinking
    [Adams comment: I love "Whispering Bush"...a much gentler God than the one with the "Burning Bush"]
    Pema Pera: in which the whisper of the Divine can be heard
    Pema Pera: like Moses and the whispering bush
    Moon Fargis: amen
    Pema Pera does not know Christian stories in English, only in Dutch, alas
    Geo Netizen smiles
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble thinks Pema does quite well
    Twang Rexen: :)
    Adams Rubble: but burning bush in English :)
    Pema Pera: yes!!!
    Pema Pera: that one
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Pema Pera: bramen in Dutch, a kind of berry

    Geo showed us a great quote.

    Geo Netizen: A quote from Cloud of Unknowing for others to get a sense ...
    Geo Netizen: "Our intense need to understand will always be a powerful stumbling block to our attempts to reach God in simple love [...] and must always be overcome. For if you do not overcome this need to understand, it will undermine your quest. It will replace the darkness which you have pierced to reach God with clear images of something which, however good, however beautiful, however Godlike, is not God."
    Adams Rubble likes whispering bush
    Pema Pera: amen
    Twang Rexen: well that all boils down to faith..
    Pema Pera: it's so beautiful that we don't know the author of that book -- the subject is anonymous!
    Pema Pera: how so, Twang?
    Twang Rexen: Christianity is not understanding but simply placing faith and belief
    Twang Rexen: in not so many words
    Pema Pera: much of it is, for sure, and so is much of other religions
    Adams Rubble: that is not my Christanity
    Pema Pera: but those within Christianity who really dig deep
    Pema Pera: or in other religions
    Pema Pera: they can find something real
    Pema Pera: like the Medieval mystics we're now talking about
    Twang Rexen: then again if we strip it all away
    Twang Rexen: then what is real to the observer
    Pema Pera: better to keep stripping, Twang
    Twang Rexen: if we dont have faith or belief
    Pema Pera: and strip the observer too
    Pema Pera: no need for belief, strip that too
    Pema Pera: bare bones appearance is enough
    Geo Netizen: These monks had faith in search of understanding
    Twang Rexen: i find that hard to imagine
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Tsuki
    tsukino Udimo: hello!:)
    Umbriel Levenque: Hello tsuki :-)
    Twang Rexen: hello tsukino
    Geo Netizen: Much of their explorations can have nothing to do with religion
    Geo Netizen: Hi Tsukino
    Pema Pera: Hi Tsukino!
    Pema Pera: yes, indeed, Geo!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Tsukino
    Pema Pera: You need a kind of faith that your very searching may be useful -- but you don't need faith in a particular image/idea/construct -- that will only hinder you
    Pema Pera: Have you been here before, Tsukino?
    Moon Fargis: yes moon introduced me already
    Moon Fargis: sorry she cant talk atm
    Moon Fargis: so i will speak for her
    Moon Fargis: ah
    Pema Pera: I was wondering whether Moon had dropped the observer :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    Adams Rubble: L(
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Twang Rexen: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and yet remained Moon....

    Tsukino had some difficulties getting settled. We were all flooded by many messages like "Object [script:facelight4]: Script run-time error" and "S@R Face Light+Smile+Prim Lashes on chin vr.1.00 [script:facelight1]: Script run-time error" . . .

    Moon Fargis: seems there problems
    Umbriel Levenque: :-)
    Moon Fargis: more problems
    tsukino Udimo: test 123
    Adams Rubble: appearances
    Geo Netizen: Facelight seems to be part of the problem :)
    tsukino Udimo: someone here?
    Moon Fargis: yep
    tsukino Udimo: gosh
    Adams Rubble: we think there are observers here
    Geo Netizen: Do you have bling running Tsukino?
    Pema Pera: you see, the world fall apart like a barrel without hoops when you take away the observer!
    tsukino Udimo: i got alot of things running haha
    Umbriel Levenque: Thanks for the conversation. Good day.
    Moon Fargis: come tsuki cuddle with us :)
    Pema Pera: bye Umbriel!
    Adams Rubble: bye Umbriel
    Geo Netizen: Me bows towards Umbriel
    tsukino Udimo: bye umbri!
    Twang Rexen: bye Ubriel
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Umbriel.
    Adams Rubble smiles at Moon
    Geo Netizen thinks Moon looks way to comfortable ;)
    Twang Rexen: lol
    Twang Rexen nods*
    tsukino Udimo: haha dunno what i would do when i wouldnt know him in rl *giggles*
    Moon Fargis purrzzzzzzzzz
    Twang Rexen: lol
    Pema Pera: You are Moon's I take it, tsukino?
    Pema Pera: "tsuki" being moon and "no" being "of" in Japanese :-)
    Moon Fargis looks confused
    Twang Rexen: :)
    tsukino Udimo: uhm can you say it again ?
    Pema Pera: tsuki no udimo = udimo's moon in Japanese
    Geo Netizen: Sailor Moon character
    Pema Pera: sorry
    Pema Pera: the other way around
    Pema Pera: moon's udimo
    Pema Pera: or the udimo of moon -- I meant to say
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: an anime character.
    Geo Netizen nods
    Adams Rubble: We can't fool Pema :)

    More quotes.

    Pema Pera: Adams, may I quote another Cloud of Unknowing passage, in addition to what Geo gave?
    Pema Pera: You may like this one:
    Adams Rubble: yes?
    Pema Pera: Yet I can show you something of these spiritual arts: at least I think so. Try them out, and see if you can do better. Do everything you can to act as if you did not know that they were so strongly pushing in between you and God. Try to look, as it were, over their shoulders, seeking something else -- which is God, shrouded in the cloud of unknowing.
    Adams Rubble is getting interested in this Cloud of Unknowing
    Geo Netizen needs more coffee !! brb
    tsukino Udimo sighs and says "PSSSSSSST!"
    Pema Pera: there is a follow up paragraph:
    Pema Pera: There is another spiritual dodge to try if you wish. When you feel that you are completely powerless to put these thoughts away, cower down before them like some cringing captive overcome in battle, and reckon that it is ridiculous to fight against them any longer. In this way you surrender yourself to God while you are in the hands of your enemies, and feeling that you have been overcome for ever. Please pay special heed to this suggestion, for I think that if you try it out it will dissolve every opposition.
    Pema Pera: -- this is stopping and dropping, which we have talked about so much in Buddhist contexts -- same thing
    Adams Rubble: beautiful imagery
    Pema Pera: and it works!
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire scribbles
    Pema Pera: sorry Twang, we normally don't talk much about Christianity . . . every session is different here
    Geo Netizen nods
    Pema Pera: just happened today
    Twang Rexen: not a problem with me
    Twang Rexen: and no need to apologise
    Pema Pera: :)
    Twang Rexen: ty for letting me join in :)
    Adams Rubble: Cloud of Unknowing is Christia?
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: by an unknown writer
    Pema Pera: great humor in that!
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Pema Pera: in England several centuries ago
    Moon Fargis: hmm i would say "cloud of the knowing unknowing is christia"
    Geo Netizen: latter half of the 14th century by an English monk

    Geo added another quote, very much in the spirit of PaB.

    Geo Netizen: "And so I urge you, go after experience rather than knowledge. On account of pride, knowledge may often deceive you, but this gentle, loving affection will not deceive you. Knowledge tends to breed conceit, but love builds. Knowledge is full of labor, but love, full of rest."
    Pema Pera: yes, that's it!
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera: that's what I'm trying to point to with "appreciate the presence of appearance" . . . .
    Pema Pera: thanks for the quote, Geo!
    Twang Rexen: so in other words lets all fall in love *cheeky smile*
    Geo Netizen: I am currently thinking more in terms of experiential and not appearance (John Scotus)
    Pema Pera: yes, so much so that we forget our "self", Twang :-)
    Twang Rexen: :)
    Geo Netizen: Hence, Pema, my difficulty at times
    Adams Rubble: but is it not the observer who is spearated from God?
    Pema Pera: perhaps we are using different words for similar ideas Geo
    Geo Netizen nods
    Pema Pera: that's why we have to go so slowly
    Adams Rubble: separated not spearated
    Pema Pera: there is the appearance of separation, perhaps, Adams, but no possibiilty of real separation
    Adams Rubble was emphasizing the observer part
    Pema Pera: so Geo, I could come half-way and say "we can experience the appearance of X"
    Geo Netizen chuckles
    Pema Pera: but then I have to drop "we" and "experience" and "X" to be really honest
    Pema Pera: realy unknowing
    Geo Netizen: But that's why the observer ... the one experiencing .... seems so central
    Pema Pera: yes, to the degree of blocking our true insight
    Adams Rubble: Central to us but the appearance is beyond us
    Adams Rubble: moe than us
    Pema Pera: the dream continues, because we are totally enamoured with the central self, the pillar on which the universe of knowing seems to rest . . . .
    Adams Rubble: more
    Pema Pera: pull away the pillar, and a new world opens . . .
    Adams Rubble: puch
    Adams Rubble: ouch
    Pema Pera: a motorbike?
    Pema Pera: ah!
    Adams Rubble rubs top of head
    Pema Pera: :)

    About the relationship between observer and consciousness.

    Pema Pera: within consciousness there appears the notion of observer . . and then there is a palace revolution, with the observer claiming that it alone is the prime mover for consciousness!
    Pema Pera: how absurd, how sad
    mike Canucci: hey guys............is this private land?
    Pema Pera: free to join us, Mike!
    mike Canucci: oh......ok
    Adams Rubble: Hello Mike
    Twang Rexen: hello mike
    mike Canucci: hi
    mike Canucci: all
    Pema Pera: Mike, we get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/ -- we record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?
    Geo Netizen: experiencer is a better term than observer
    Pema Pera: yes, much better
    mike Canucci: not at all
    Twang Rexen: yes :0
    Pema Pera: thanks, Mike
    Pema Pera: but still has egg shell of self on its back, Geo
    Pema Pera: assuming an experiencer
    mike Canucci: yes
    mike Canucci: ?
    Twang Rexen: was agreeing with Geo :)
    Pema Pera: we're talking about what is really real, Mike . . . long story :)
    mike Canucci: hmmmmmm
    Geo Netizen: An experiencer may be core to experience and not the center of the universe of knowing
    Twang Rexen: :)
    Pema Pera: yes, but the separation between experiencer and experienced is still "coming in between us and God" as the Cloud of Unknowing says, or blocking "advaita" as the Hindus say, or introducing a self as the Buddhist say
    Pema Pera: appearance is a more neutral term, I feel -- but I don't care about the labels, obviously
    Geo Netizen nods
    Pema Pera: the challenge is to compare notes and see whether we can find a way to talk about the same thing
    Pema Pera: that's why I loved your poetic quote
    Twang Rexen: ty for letting me sit in today
    Twang Rexen: i must leave now :/
    Twang Rexen: take care
    Pema Pera: any time, Twang!
    Adams Rubble: Please come again Twang
    Geo Netizen bows towards Twang
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye Twang.
    Adams Rubble: bye
    mike Canucci: bye twang

    From the Cloud to Dogen.

    Pema Pera: Geo, may I ask
    Geo Netizen: But as you said earlier Pema, it is important to probe deeply, this is not just quibbling
    Pema Pera: when the Japanese zen master Dogen talk about dropping body and mind
    Pema Pera: do you call that an experience?
    Pema Pera: oh, yes, absolutely, Geo!!
    Pema Pera: that's why I am enjoying this conversation so much, in gratitude and respect!
    Adams Rubble: Thank you all for a wonderful discussion. bye for now :)
    Pema Pera: Bye Adams!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye adams.
    mike Canucci: yea i must of came at the end
    Geo Netizen: Yes, I both agree with the master Dogen but expect I bring a little baggage with my understanding
    Geo Netizen bows towards the vanished Adams
    Pema Pera: :)
    mike Canucci: thanks for askin me to sit
    Pema Pera: any time, Mike, we are here four times a day
    Pema Pera: 1 am 7 am 1 pm 7 pm we start
    Pema Pera: (SL times)
    mike Canucci: ok .......ill be back!.......
    Pema Pera: can you say more about your baggage, Geo?
    Pema Pera: bye Mike!
    mike Canucci: bye guys
    Geo Netizen glad someone offer hospitality to Mike since Geo was completely oblivious
    Geo Netizen: Bye Mike
    Pema Pera: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am called away.
    Pema Pera: bye Corvi!
    Geo Netizen smiles at Corvi
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: though..i will be reading this later with great interest.
    Pema Pera: thansk for joining us!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Thank you, Pema.
    Pema Pera: If I may quote Meister Eckart, Geo:
    Pema Pera: “ What has no essence, does not exist. There is no creature that has essence, because the essence of all is in the presence of God. If God went out of the creatures even for a single moment, they would disappear into nothingness.”
    Pema Pera: this is yet another angle on appearance
    Pema Pera: read "God"
    Pema Pera: anything else is secondary
    Moon Fargis: well then i also better go now was a nice discussion, see you later
    Pema Pera: bye Moon!
    tsukino Udimo: brr now its cold without fur
    Pema Pera: hehehe
    Geo Netizen chuckles

    While Tsukino and I switch to German, Geo says goodbye.

    Pema Pera: Bist du auch Deutsche, wenn ich fragen darf, Tsukino?
    tsukino Udimo: ja und du uhm dutch
    tsukino Udimo: dänisch?
    tsukino Udimo: ach ne holländisch
    Geo Netizen: I think we have transitioned to, if not a new topic, at least to an extension … might be a good place to end the log :))
    Pema Pera: ja, Hollaendisch
    Pema Pera: sure, fine, Geo!
    Pema Pera: I'll put it up tomorrow (for me), today (for you)
    Geo Netizen: Hope you both have a great day
    Pema Pera: Bye Geo, thanks for a wonderful conversation!
    tsukino Udimo: and all gone:)
    Pema Pera: yup
    Pema Pera: wie magst du SL?
    Pema Pera: Du bist einige Monaten her arriviert, ja?
    tsukino Udimo: SL ist klasse, es gibt ne menge netter leute
    Pema Pera: ja, die Leute sind am interessants
    Pema Pera: noch mehr als die viele andere Sachen
    tsukino Udimo: hehe ja sachen für frauen gibts unendlich!
    Pema Pera: ja, leider weiniger fuer Maenner . . . .
    Pema Pera: Hast du eine Interesse in Buddhismus?
    tsukino Udimo: hehe ja die nehmen dann lieber andere avs als kleidung :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    tsukino Udimo: jaa doch kann man so sagen^^ leider muss ich auch wieder los da es spät ist;(
    Pema Pera: spaet?
    Pema Pera: in Europa?
    tsukino Udimo: ja das abendessen wartet
    Pema Pera: ah!
    tsukino Udimo: muss ja jjemand machen :)
    Pema Pera: Hier in Japan ist es wirklich spaet
    tsukino Udimo: ohhh japan
    Pema Pera: 1:30 im Nacht :)
    tsukino Udimo: na dan ab ins bett!:)
    Pema Pera: wb Twang!
    Pema Pera: jah, wirklich

    And back to English.

    Twang Rexen: ty
    Twang Rexen: my rl guests came and left
    Pema Pera: wow, that was quick!
    Twang Rexen: quicer than i could say hello
    Twang Rexen: lol
    Pema Pera wishing some guests of him would do the same; others not . .. :-)
    Twang Rexen: well they dropped off something and left to go to dinner
    Pema Pera: and they didn't take you to dinner?
    Twang Rexen: i expected them to stay for coffee at least
    Twang Rexen: nope :)
    Pema Pera: :(
    Twang Rexen: I'd rather chew glass then join the couple they are having dinner with
    Twang Rexen: so i've been the lucky one
    Pema Pera: hahaha
    Pema Pera: what an image . . .
    Twang Rexen: glad u enjoyed it :)
    Pema Pera: up to a point . . .
    Twang Rexen: lol
    Pema Pera: . .. . swallowing I guess
    Twang Rexen: that would be the bonus point really
    Pema Pera: have you enjoyed the SL experience so far?
    Pema Pera: glass or no glass?
    Twang Rexen: its very different
    Twang Rexen: and yes
    Twang Rexen: its been a pleasant experience
    Twang Rexen: no glass :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: it must have been odd to drop in in the middle of our conversation :>)
    Twang Rexen: yes a lill
    Twang Rexen: but still thought provoking
    Twang Rexen: as usual in this circle
    Pema Pera: glad to hear that ^^
    Pema Pera: we try . . .
    Pema Pera: if you have any questions or comments, feel free, by all means
    Twang Rexen: ty
    Pema Pera: we are very informal
    Twang Rexen: but i am a simple mind
    Pema Pera: that's even better
    Pema Pera: the rest of us have to work at becoming simpler
    Pema Pera: you're way ahead of us!
    Twang Rexen: lol
    Twang Rexen: oh its easy to be simple
    Twang Rexen: lol
    Pema Pera: we were talking about "unknowing" :-)
    Pema Pera: yes, I know it is easy -- but it seems to be hard to find that kind of "easy" . . . .
    Twang Rexen: it comes with age
    Twang Rexen: lol
    Pema Pera: well, I should get some sleep, its 1:45 am here . . . .
    tsukino Udimo: yes :)
    Twang Rexen: ok pema enjoy
    Pema Pera: good seeing you both
    tsukino Udimo: good night pema as i also need to go
    Twang Rexen: sleep well
    tsukino Udimo: bye bye ^^/
    Pema Pera: lass es dir schmecken, Tsukino!
    Twang Rexen: bye tsukino
    Pema Pera: ciao
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    Viewing 1 of 1 comments: view all
    Originally written on 07:59, 22 Mar 2009
    I missed this session the first time around, what a marvellous conversation.
    Posted 05:44, 9 Apr 2010
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