2008.12.27 13:00 - Divination

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    Aurora provided the comments. Aurora was guardian, very ably assisted by Storm Nordwind.

    Aurora and Storm are joined by Riddle

    Aurora Kitaj: Hello there Riddle, thanks for coming
    Storm Nordwind: Hello Riddle
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Everybody
    Riddle Sideways: well if I don't log in for a few days seem to have lots of messages
    Storm Nordwind: Yes that's common!
    Aurora Kitaj: you are so popular Riddle
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    Riddle Sideways: as bad as my email
    Riddle Sideways: :)
    Aurora Kitaj: yes, even I'm popular in that department
    Storm Nordwind: Seasonal greetings aplenty?
    Aurora Kitaj: yes I would second that
    Riddle Sideways: hope you are having happy holidays
    Aurora Kitaj: hope you are Riddle
    Storm Nordwind: I'm still getting used to that strange American expression!
    Riddle Sideways: even if they are not your holidays, we can all take some time off
    Riddle Sideways: reflect, relax, celebrate
    Storm Nordwind only gets Christmas Day and New Year's Day off
    Aurora Kitaj: HA!
    Storm Nordwind: Screaming kids often put the nail through that one I guess
    Aurora Kitaj: giggles
    Aurora Kitaj: well I hope that we've all overeaten and tried to walk it off and that we've not been stuck in front of the TV screen too long
    Storm Nordwind: But the idea of "reflect, relax, celebrate" is good. I like some of the BBC radio shows where they reflect on what's happened in the year
    Riddle Sideways: tried not too, tried too, tried not too
    Aurora Kitaj: very good
    Riddle Sideways: we get all the "year in review" mags
    Storm Nordwind does not think that a bowl of cereal and a bagel amounts to overeating!
    Riddle Sideways: and see what we missed
    Storm Nordwind: Haha!
    Storm Nordwind: The best way to 'suggest' a topic, I find, is often to ask a question and see how it runs
    Riddle Sideways: often lay about new years day reading who died last yea
    Riddle Sideways: btw - both Jimi Hendrix drummers died
    Storm Nordwind: I didn't know there was more than one Jimi Hendrix ;)
    Storm Nordwind is being deliberately obtuse
    Riddle Sideways: and I bought the Astro mag to read the top 10 events of last year
    Storm Nordwind: What is the Astro mag?
    Riddle Sideways: oh dear I forgot the name
    Riddle Sideways: you would have to ask
    Riddle Sideways: too lazy to run upstairs
    Aurora Kitaj: no pressure
    Storm Nordwind: You mean astronomical events?
    Aurora Kitaj: just what I was thinking storm
    Riddle Sideways: yep
    Storm Nordwind: ah!
     Aurora Kitaj: or maybe astronomy
    Aurora Kitaj: no didn't think so
    Riddle Sideways: probably spend the day online reading year in review lists this year
    Aurora Kitaj: so do you think that there is any truth in the astrology?
    Storm Nordwind: Truth... difficult word...
    Storm Nordwind: How about instead saying that it might be a useful tool?
    Aurora Kitaj: yes
    Aurora Kitaj: for what?
    Storm Nordwind: Self knowledge through reflection
    Riddle Sideways: useful if not over-used
    Riddle Sideways: if not used as crutch, justifications or absolutes
    Aurora Kitaj: I'm interested in the role of tarot cards also
    Storm Nordwind: That sounds Riddle like a statement about religion!
    Riddle Sideways: yes
    Aurora Kitaj: perhaps a little like a painting, the artist is able to sort of imprint their feelings onto another person and predicting that person's future or at least thinking aloud about their character and motivations
    Aurora Kitaj: but as they say, the painter always instinctively sees everything through their own eyes so too tarot card readers would see a different reality?
    Storm Nordwind: Interesting
    Riddle Sideways: the audience brings their critique, review, options to each play
    Storm Nordwind: As with all art
    Storm Nordwind: But I have studied divination systems for a long time, including tarot, though I do not count astrology as divination
    Storm Nordwind: Ah... that's a very important point about Tarot and all symbolic divination systems
    Riddle Sideways: and religions and arts
    Riddle Sideways: would we say sciences too?
    Aurora Kitaj: well my friend who is a would disagree, he would say that Christians should take every thing directly from the bible and not through a intermediary
    Storm Nordwind: Supposing that a Tarot reader needs to get some useful message over to querent. The cards that they will draw will be different to those that a second reader would get for the same querent in order to give the same message!
    Aurora Kitaj: but that still leaves lots of space for interpretation
    Storm Nordwind: And others would say, Aurora, that the Bible itself is an intermediary!
    Aurora Kitaj: indeed
    Aurora Kitaj: I will have to put that point to him
    Riddle Sideways: the Hebrew version is hard enough
    Riddle Sideways: that it was 4 authors of a verbal version
    Riddle Sideways: meanwhile back to Tarot rather then Torah
    Storm Nordwind: I tend to regard scriptures as signposts. I think it's not very useful to sit underneath a signpost and not travel onto the destination - but so very many seem to do that, or so it seems to me
    Aurora Kitaj: is there a link?
    Storm Nordwind: No, no link Aurora
    Storm Nordwind: Except some that have been recently imputed onto it!
    Riddle Sideways: perhaps if the signpost points only one way
    Riddle Sideways: if a signpost points 4,6 or N directions I am happy to sit and wonder
    Storm Nordwind: haha!
    Storm Nordwind: If you could chat to the person who put up the signpost in the first place, may be that would help you out! :)
    Aurora Kitaj: Many years ago, I used to do tarot readings, I found it most interesting. It took a long time to master all the different meanings and combinations of cards, but all sadly forgotten now
    Riddle Sideways: there is a very good chance of that
    Riddle Sideways should mark which thread is being replied to:
    Storm Nordwind: Yes, Aurora, it can be hard work. But much less hard work if you find a system that you naturally resonate with.
    Riddle Sideways: so often we have to go with the first or our teachers system rather then go find our own
    Aurora Kitaj: That's true, it felt completely natural after a while
    Storm Nordwind: Although I have studied many systems, and even taught on the subject to many students, I know habitually only use two divination systems
    Storm Nordwind: The first is the Kuan Yin Oracle, a version of which I have put on my land 250m away - Kuan Yin Oracle, Mieum (73, 44, 94)
    Aurora Kitaj: I've never heard of that, only I CHING
    Storm Nordwind: The second is Morgan's Tarot - http://www.sleepbot.com/<wbr/>morgan/ - which is a kind of anti-tarot!

    Adams arrives with another avi attending for the first time

    Adams Rubble: Hello everyone. Sorry I am late but I fell asleep :)
    All welcome Adams
    Storm Nordwind: Sleep is good!
    Aurora Kitaj: Hi there Adams, np
    Aurora Kitaj: Nice to see you
    Storm Nordwind: Welcome anonymous - your first visit to our place here?
    Adams Rubble: I discovered the telescope yesterday by accident. Quite impressive
    Aurora Kitaj: as you may have guessed we are talking about divination methods for example,Tarot, Astrology
    Anonymous: yes, but it's my first visit in this game...
    Adams Rubble: ah, I always think everyone is talking about buildings
    Adams Rubble: silly me
    Storm Nordwind: I see you were born two days ago
    Aurora Kitaj: I'll send you the chat
    Storm Nordwind: Please read that note anonymous
    Riddle Sideways: Adams, you mean the telescope that you lay down in?
    Adams Rubble shakes the sleep out her hair
    Storm Nordwind: You mean my little observatory?
    Adams Rubble: I sat in a chair in it. Big tower
    Adams Rubble: yes Storm
    Storm Nordwind: Ah yes - my own guardian plot
    Storm Nordwind: I still have to pretty it up and hold a party there!
    Adams Rubble: Oh is it? hat a nice way to use it
    Storm Nordwind: Yes. It's the same size as all the others
    Adams Rubble: Nice detailing
    Storm Nordwind: Thank you!
    Storm Nordwind: I want to change the views through the telescope though

    Tarmel arrives

    Storm Nordwind: Hi Tarmel
    Riddle Sideways: the one by the tea house?
    Aurora Kitaj: Hi Tarmel, nice to see you
    Tarmel Udimo: hi folks and merry merry
    Tarmel Udimo: smiles
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Tarmel
    Storm Nordwind: There's a telescope by the teahouse too Riddle?
    Aurora Kitaj: Hi anonymous, nice to see you too
    Anonymous: tnks
    Riddle Sideways: no, I was asking which of Storms plots of land
    Storm Nordwind: Oh - it's in Magoja in the southeast edge
    Anonymous: belated Merry Christmas!
    Storm Nordwind: Not far from the monument
    Riddle Sideways: ty
    Storm Nordwind: In fact if you walk from here to the guardian plots in Magoja Forest, you'll walk past it (after going past the library)
    Riddle Sideways: ok, will do later
    Riddle Sideways: now back to tarot, Torah and table manners
    Storm Nordwind: Table manners?! :)
    Riddle Sideways needs a new keyboard with a working space bar
    Aurora Kitaj: Make yourself comfortable on one of the cushions
    Tarmel Udimo: and the tarot, Torah?

    Another anonymous avi arrives, attending PaB for the first time.

    Aurora Kitaj: I think you know the topic already anonymous, it's divination
    Storm Nordwind should mention to people, you can click on your cushion to get an alternative pose
    Tarmel Udimo: you beauty... gee it pays to be a member :)
    Storm Nordwind smiles at the pose changing antics
    Tarmel Udimo: divination? yes no or have you already decided :)
    Storm Nordwind laughs
    Anonymous: I'm going now... tnks
    Anonymous: see u next time
    Tarmel Udimo: see yu bruce
    Riddle Sideways: see you
    Tarmel Udimo: that's better
    Riddle Sideways: well I still like sayza position
    Riddle Sideways: but will try others
    Riddle Sideways: divination has so much Divine in it
    Storm Nordwind smiles and nods
    Tarmel Udimo: Self-discovery is not a path that leads you somewhere. It is the path that stops you in your tracks so that you can discover directly, who you are.
    Riddle Sideways: Adams, you did not have to leave and change outfits
    Tarmel Udimo: from a wonderful thinker Gangaji
    Adams Rubble: I have a weak connection and the hair is primmy
    Tarmel Udimo: thought it appropriate description for pab
    Storm Nordwind: Adams, you remind me of my many Malaysian colleagues now
    Adams Rubble: yes tarmel stopping
    Adams Rubble: Thank you Storm :)
    Riddle Sideways: yes Tarmel, seems to counterdict Storms not sitting under signposts
    Tarmel Udimo: adams does have a Malaysian flair
    Tarmel Udimo: bit slow this am signposts?
    Adams Rubble seems to be distracting the conversation
    Anonymous: just one small off-topic: in case I suddenly disappear, don't take it personal - I'm on a miserable Internet connection that has crashed at least five times already today
    Adams Rubble: We all understand those things anonymous :)
    Tarmel Udimo: thanks for letting us know anonymous
    Storm Nordwind: All aphorisms are just ways to drag you out of habitual thinking. Contradictions can yet have the same effect.
    Tarmel Udimo: ahhh the what it is not technique
    Riddle Sideways: Tao, what it is not?
    Aurora Kitaj: So has anyone used I CHING?
    Tarmel Udimo: could be I was being more general, the approach that defines something via defining what it is not .... perhaps it exist everywhere
    Storm Nordwind: Only for 35 years Aurora! ;)
    Tarmel Udimo: I used to ALOT!
    Aurora Kitaj: a novice then
    Tarmel Udimo: hehehehe
    Aurora Kitaj: :-)
    Annoymous: nope, I'm the novice - I haven't got the faintest idea what it is
    Storm Nordwind: It's the Chinese Book of Changes
    Storm Nordwind: The I Ching is used as a book of wisdom and as a tool by many for divination
    Storm Nordwind recommends the Richard Wilhelm versions
    Aurora Kitaj: As far as I can remember it consists of throwing sticks and seeing how they land
    Tarmel Udimo: the original?
    Aurora Kitaj: is that correct
    Riddle Sideways: or coins
    Aurora Kitaj: ok
    Storm Nordwind: Yes the original uses yarrow stalks, but using coins is simpler for the impatient Western mind!
    Riddle Sideways: ty
    Aurora Kitaj: anyone for reading entrails?
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Aurora Kitaj: anyone know how that would work?
    Storm Nordwind: Any vegetarians here reading the crumbs of a nut roast?
    Aurora Kitaj: hahahaha
    Storm Nordwind: Aurora, you can use anything for divination
    Storm Nordwind: You can invent a new system today if you know how divination works
    Anonymous: if you believe in divination, that is
    Storm Nordwind: Certainly not believing in divination will render it less than useful for you
    Aurora Kitaj: what about the oracles,
    Riddle Sideways: casting oracles might work
    Aurora Kitaj: in those days it was all about the person who did the divining?
    Storm Nordwind: It depends what you mean by oracle
    Aurora Kitaj: Delphic oracle?
    Storm Nordwind: That's not divination as such
    Anonymous: also in my view
    Adams Rubble: storm's Guanyin oracle?
    Storm Nordwind: The people oracles are medium, or seers or possibly shamans - or even people deluded by drugs
    Storm Nordwind: No general rule!
    Aurora Kitaj: oh, so all these things I hear about sl bringing out latent behaviours in ppl, might actually serve to create oracles?
    Aurora Kitaj: create
    Storm Nordwind: hmm... that has not yet been my experience, but who can tell
    Riddle Sideways: but as Faenik says "Why not?"
    Storm Nordwind: I think all life experience can be used to help you develop in all sorts of ways. SL is just another facet, and oracular ability just another behaviour
    Aurora Kitaj: what qualities do people think it takes to make an oracle / shaman / whatever you like?
    Storm Nordwind: A willingness to believe that anything is possible is a good starting point, in my view! ;)
    Aurora Kitaj: wow so someone who is really positive?
    Storm Nordwind: Not necessarily. Non-judgemental helps though
    Adams Rubble: Someone who spends a good bit of their time in the spirit world
    Aurora Kitaj: So there are quite a few ppl on sl with those qualities
    Storm Nordwind: That would be for a shaman, yes Adams
    Storm Nordwind: Aurora, it's hard to tell.
    Storm Nordwind: There's an important distinction here...
    Storm Nordwind: whether you practise these things for your own use...
    Storm Nordwind: or whether you try to help others with them
    Adams Rubble: yes Storm
    Riddle Sideways: yes
    Adams Rubble: and I wonder if choosing to expand our experience means that it is latent behavior
    Aurora Kitaj: that's opening up big questions in my mind
    Aurora Kitaj: in relation to the first option
    Adams Rubble: It seems a judgement by someone who is afraid to try to experiment
    Riddle Sideways: Aurora, I am not following
    Aurora Kitaj: Aurora has been asking lots of questions
    Aurora Kitaj: as usual
    Riddle Sideways: if 1st point = use for self purposes
    Aurora Kitaj: yes, this would be for what purpose?
    Riddle Sideways: judgements by afraid person would probably be safest pick
    Aurora Kitaj: self advancement
    Aurora Kitaj: improving mental well being
    Adams Rubble: Now I'm confused
    Riddle Sideways: welcome
    Tarmel Udimo: sorry folks, I have been distracted by RL comings and goings, which I must attend to..
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: so goodbye for now...
    Adams Rubble: bye Tarmel
    Riddle Sideways: bye now
    Aurora Kitaj: Bye Riddle
    Aurora Kitaj: thanks for coming
    Anonymous: bye
    Aurora Kitaj: Bye Tarmel
    Tarmel Udimo: bye
    Adams Rubble: Ruddle leaving? bye :)
    Riddle Sideways: oh was I leaving :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Aurora Kitaj: Oh sorry Riddle
    Riddle Sideways: I am going to check if Kira talk is happening
    Adams Rubble: let us know?
    Aurora Kitaj: Thanks for coming Riddle
    Aurora Kitaj: and everyone
    Adams Rubble: maybe we should all go
    Adams Rubble: thank you Aurora
    Anonymous: dang ... I missed almost the whole event :(
    Aurora Kitaj: No you didn't anonymous
    Anonymous: I would like to give a very special thanks to the phone company 3 who provides me with my reliable Internet connection. Not.
    Aurora Kitaj: I will send you the link for the chat before I go tomorrow... all going well ;)
    Adams Rubble: I just gave you a landmark for the Kira Cafe where Riddle went anonymous

    Adams Rubble: Bye all :)
    Aurora Kitaj: to clarify in my mind lol
    Riddle Sideways: did I miss anything about using divination for personal uses
    Aurora Kitaj: Ummm, not so I noticed the conversation stopped seconds after you left
    Aurora Kitaj: do you have any other things that you would like to say Riddle?
    Riddle Sideways: that usually only happens when I enter
    Riddle Sideways: no I was confused
    Aurora Kitaj: confused about the discussion as a whole?
    Aurora Kitaj: We didn't really go into how it could be used for personal benefit
    Aurora Kitaj: but that's a whole other area
    Riddle Sideways: even though my off-subject remarks showed that, mostly only the last parts
    Aurora Kitaj: and one that I think that many of us would find interesting
    Riddle Sideways: that seemed what Storm was saying
    Riddle Sideways: divination as either a personal or public thing
    Aurora Kitaj: yes
    Riddle Sideways: then something about the afraid person
    Riddle Sideways: was not understanding that part
    Aurora Kitaj: this is what Storm said in relation to the role of the person carrying out the divination: 'whether you practise these things for your own use, or whether you try to help others with them'
    Aurora Kitaj: perhaps it is possible to log this for a future conversation Riddle?
    Aurora Kitaj: I will ask Storm whether this can be done
    Aurora Kitaj: if you wish
    Riddle Sideways: yes, I need to go too
    Riddle Sideways: it has been a nice hour
    Aurora Kitaj: well nice to see you Riddle, hope to see you again soon
    Aurora Kitaj: Bye for now Riddle

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