2008.12.28 19:00 - KPW Lab Report Conversations

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    stevenaia Michinaga filled in for Pema Pera this session


    (KPW, Kira Phenomenology Workshop)  take place a the Kira Cafe in SL (http://slurl.com/secondlife/BaikUn/198/76/99)

     The logs are posted at Kira Institute website and many PaB participants are also taking part in this experiment:
    The  "Lab Reports" of the participants are posted on the Google Groups page:


     The following discussion relates to this group and PaB:


    stevenaia Michinaga,  Pila Mulligan and doug Sosa begin the conversations about my first lab report

    stevenaia Michinaga: HI Pila
    Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
    Pila Mulligan: how are you?
    stevenaia Michinaga: good, keep waiting for friday's transcript at the Kira Cafe to show up on the kira site since I ahd to leave early
    stevenaia Michinaga: something about a spoon..smile
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: ThreeDee was chatting about it this afternoon... sometimes I was not quite sure where he was going, although your refrigerator Experiement was far more insightful than you know
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Pila Mulligan: how so?
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps is was the first one I read that gave me the framework to do the experiment in a way that made sence to me, I don;t knwo if you read my report
    Pila Mulligan: yes, I read them all
    stevenaia Michinaga: yours made sence allowed me to begin thinking .... it all came together for me then
    stevenaia Michinaga: like one thought relating to an unrelated yet parallel thought
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: it is interesting to see how Pema is fine tuning the expereiments also
    stevenaia Michinaga: one moment I feel clueless, the next it all makes sence
    stevenaia Michinaga: well maybe not all...smiles
    Pila Mulligan: Pema's point is that we should remain the observing entity, and not let the obseration point of view shift to the object
    Pila Mulligan: this is a reduciton I suppose in the subjectivity of the observor
    Pila Mulligan: but the idea of being seen by the object has led some of us, myself included, to take the object's point of view
    Pila Mulligan: it is a fine distinction
    stevenaia Michinaga: observing entity but not object's point of view?
    Pila Mulligan: kind of yes :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: rather, be the object
    Pila Mulligan: being aware of being observed, as you just noted, implies an ability of the entity to observe :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Doug
    doug Sosa: hi stve.
    Pila Mulligan: hi Doug
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    doug Sosa: sorry late,end of big family,allgone now, including the three dogs!
    doug Sosa: hi pila
    stevenaia Michinaga: were you finished with yoru thought Pila
    stevenaia Michinaga: [19:12] Pila Mulligan: being aware of being observed, as you just noted, implies an ability of the entity to observe :)
    Pila Mulligan: well, Doug just reminded me of something -- at the first session I suggested that the experiemnt be done with a cat or a god ...
    Pila Mulligan: so as not to invite the ambiguity of observaiton by an inanimate object
    Pila Mulligan: it wwas kind of missed, as a suggestion, however
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I remember that
    doug Sosa: i like it. very intense.
    doug Sosa: those dogs,one in particular
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    doug Sosa: knew hen i was thinking maybe i should give it a pice of turkey/
    Pila Mulligan: dogs and cats are quite observant
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, they stare at you and the wall with equal intensity
    doug Sosa: my wife was editing a journal article of a colleague,and she didn'tlike it,and the dog would growl .
    stevenaia Michinaga: dog ate journal, not original
    doug Sosa: lol
    doug Sosa: i don't have difficulty with the inannimate seeing me.after all, there is gravity at least, and the ability to throw shadows..
    Pila Mulligan: I am fine with trees having sensitivity sufficinety to obsevre, but I am not sure of spoons and pens :
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    doug Sosa: is thre more to the exercise than taking the point of view of say the pen "as if it were another me?"
    Pila Mulligan: yes, this is what Pema is trying to avoid, in fact
    Pila Mulligan: he is emphasizing the idea that the observation point of view should not be shifted to the entity, just the person doing the experiement should assume the role of being observed:)
    doug Sosa: how about i look at my lamp and go to its looking at me and feel its quiet apprehension, excitement,calm, clarity, in seeing me.
    Pila Mulligan: I think Pema has a different idea in mid, but Imay e mistaken -- I think he is llooking for your sense of being observed, not the lamps sense of whata it is seeing
    doug Sosa: i think have them both, and haven;t tried to isolate my side of it as the observed one.
    Pila Mulligan: it is a fine point :)
    Pila Mulligan: of distinction, that is
    doug Sosa: but perhaps critical. if we want to get beyond attributed assumptions.
    Pila Mulligan: I believe Pema worries some about subject-obect confusion by transference, as if I could use these ideas without casuing confusion :)
    Pila Mulligan: we used to talk about this stuff in the 60-70's while stoned :)
    Pila Mulligan: hence the use of formerly familair stoned out phrases, above
    doug Sosa: see, now we can do it without being stoned! much cheaper. :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: sorry was distracted by RL
    Pila Mulligan: the other night, here, Threedee and Adelene both suggested that an artist is inspired by their deia, as woodworker's wood and an artist's pen
    Pila Mulligan: media*

    Pema Pera arrives

    Pila Mulligan: hi Pema, speak of the angel
    Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
    doug Sosa: that is partof the fun,and power of this - parallelprocessing without feeling guilty (much).
    doug Sosa: hi pema!
    Pema Pera: sorry to be late
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pema
    doug Sosa: I was too,justlet out the door the large ensemble of family..
    Pila Mulligan: want to see what we've said so far - it may be interesting :)
    Pema Pera: I have difficulty keeping track of my ever-changing schedule (I now have five slots again), which are hard to translate, given the 17-hour time difference between SLT and Japan time
    Pema Pera: emptiness?

    Corvuscorva Nightfire joins us

    Pila Mulligan: hi Corvi
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Corvi
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya
    Pema Pera: you just gave me an empty note card, Pila
    Pema Pera: Hi Corvi!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: thanks
    stevenaia Michinaga: Pema, since I am usually here on Sunday nights, I can take this slot
    Pila Mulligan: emptiness - ah yes :)
    Pila Mulligan: how is this one?
    Pema Pera: ah, thanks! less empty this time :-)
    Pila Mulligan: you and Corvi can now see what happened before you both just arrived
    Pila Mulligan gave you New Note.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: thanks...it's much appreciated...
    stevenaia Michinaga: Pila, I was here for this :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire just sent her first bit of experiment...and has yet to see the item looking at her.
    Pila Mulligan: yes, just sharing it with everyone :)
    doug Sosa: can i raise an issue,unlessPema wants to respond to the transcript..
    Pema Pera: no please go ahead, it will take me a while to read carefully
    doug Sosa: this may havebeen discussed elsewhere and other times..
    doug Sosa: but for me, i would say things to the four of you i would not say if there is a tanscript.
    doug Sosa: I admire the documentation but..

    doug Sosa: if we ar really free to respond to our experience that includes all the wonderful interpersonnal stuff that is always part of a group, but it would be


    (I need some help with formating here if someone could help) 


    doug Sosa: unintelligibleto those not here.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Doug, we sometimes choose not to put in the log things that we say here.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: is that what you mean?

    Pila Mulligan: doug, I have done that here and asked the transceipt person to delete the sesnitive part

    Pila Mulligan gives Pema and Corvi a copy of the log to this point so they can follow along

    Pema Pera: (have read the whole transcript now)

    doug Sosa: that to me is awkwrd,it is another layer of vigilance.

    Pema Pera: Doug, that is the reason that many of us talk at other times and places with each other without transcripts

    Pema Pera: here at the PaB sessions and during the once a week phenomenology sessions we have transcripts, not at any other time

    Pema Pera: not in the Kira Cafe Happy Hour for example
    doug Sosa: but then what if the real stuff of playing as being is there, in those?
    Pema Pera: everyday at 2 pm SLT
    Pema Pera: so be it, Doug
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles..perhaps it is, really.
    Pema Pera: can't have it all
    Pema Pera: what else would you propose?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and in what we do all day? what we dream at night?
    Pema Pera: yes, good point Corvi!
    doug Sosa: i don't really have a proposal,only a feeling of being not quite free.
    Pema Pera: that is the great challenge, to find the total freedom of Being, for all of us . . . .
    Pema Pera: . . . but in a relative sense, of course I know what you mean
    Pema Pera: but I see no better compromise
    doug Sosa: I rememeber my reaction to the pond and the rim, and went and at with my feet in the water.now (at least last time i tried) that wasn't possible,it hadbeen edited out.
    Pema Pera: edited out??
    doug Sosa: well,wehen i tried it was no longer possible to sit on the rim. feet in the water.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hmm
    Pema Pera: (do we want to get back to the subject - object reversal discussion?)
    doug Sosa: says no room..
    stevenaia Michinaga: Pema, perhaps a summery in the google groupes would be usefull, since I missedpart of the meeting I cannot access the part of the meeting with the second experment as the meeting log has not yet been posted
    doug Sosa: oops.
    doug Sosa: i lost my screen.need to reboot. no
    doug Sosa: back,
    Pema Pera: Genesis is generally very quick with putting up the chat logs
    stevenaia Michinaga: it;s not on the Kira site yet
    Pema Pera: I'll ask her to do so -- holidays must have slowed her down
    stevenaia Michinaga: so I understand Doug's point of reading the lab reports w/o accessing the experiement
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I get a sence of them but not the point of begining
    stevenaia Michinaga: Holiday's will do that
    Pema Pera: I have summarized the experiment in one of my recent emails
    Pema Pera: to the phenomenology group
    Pema Pera: let me quote:
    Pila Mulligan: we're having heavy rainstorms here and my mobile connection is weak to start with
    Pema Pera: (I still have difficulty navigating google groups -- very hard to find URLs of individual emails . . . )
    stevenaia Michinaga: exactly
    stevenaia Michinaga: no need here, just a separate post to the group would be nice at the begining
    stevenaia Michinaga: then all can reference it as a begining
    stevenaia Michinaga: that's all that I;m asking
    Pema Pera: that's a good idea, Steve
    Pema Pera: will do next time!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think it will make it easier to follow..I did the second experiment as best I could from Pema's reply to Maxine.
    doug Sosa: There is a very strange feeling when am paying close atention and my avata nods off :)
    Pema Pera: I find it fascinating that we find so many fine distinctions in different ways of doing the experiment
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and then later found the first experiment
    Pema Pera: like the one between "seen" and "seeing"
    Pema Pera: yes, Corvi, will do !
    Pema Pera: Here is an email I sent to the group on Sunday, early in the morning, with a description:
    Pema Pera: let me try from scratch to describe the experiment:

    1) I look at the spoon. I feel myself clearly to be the subject
     and the spoon the object. Nothing unusual, this is just the
     normal way of looking at things, but as a preparation we do
     it amyway, to see a clear contrast with the following step

    2) Subject-Object reversal: there are two variations, the
     "seeing" and the "seen" variant:

    2a) in the "seeing" variation, we remain a subject, as in 1),
     and the only difference is that we try to put ourselves
     in the position of the object (what you called the pleasant
     de-centeredness). So what is reversed here is the *position*
     of the subject, BUT we firmly remain a subject.

    2b) in the "seen" variation, we do not change our position, we
     remain where we were in 1), but we reverse our *role*, in
     that we are no longer the active subject, but rather we take
     on a more passive object role. We are seen period, nothing

    doug Sosa: i feel different when seen by one oject compared to another. does this sugest i am not quite getting it?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Here's a question I had reading that Pema...do you mean there is no subject in 2b?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: no observer?
    stevenaia Michinaga: Pila, could you go over the distinction we were dicussing ealier:

    [19:22]Pila Mulligan: he is emphasizing the idea that the observation point of view should not be shifted to the entity, just the person doing the experiement should assume the role of being observed:)
    [19:22] doug Sosa: how about i look at my lamp and go to its looking at me and feelits quiet aprehension,excitement,calm, clarity,in seeing me.
    [19:23] Pila Mulligan: I think Pema has a different idea in mid, but Imay e mistaken -- I think he is llooking for your sense of being observed, not the lamps sense of whata it is seeing
    [19:24] doug Sosa: i think have them both, and haven;t tried to isolate my side of it as the observed one.
    [19:24] Pila Mulligan: it is a fine point :)


    Pema Pera: Doug, of course each experiment is different. I am just describing two modes of doing it -- there are endles variations, and also ways of doing something in between.
    Pema Pera: Corvi, you let the other "thing" play the subject role, but you are not the subject, so you don't have to worry about it -- you don't have to play all roles yourself
    Pema Pera: I mean, it is possible to let go of the subject role ! ! !
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hm
    doug Sosa: what i get from it most is the, can i say pleasure, calm, of being observed. it makes the universe feel like a much friendlier and less lonely and lessjudgementalplace.

    Pema Pera: yes, Doug, that is the 2b) part
    Pema Pera: and you also talked about the 2a) part
    Pema Pera: it is perfectly possible to switch between the modes, once you are famliar with both
    doug Sosa: ormaybe beter i experience its benign awareness, also appreciating the appearance of me to it.
    Pema Pera: but it is very important to become familiar with the distinctions
    Pema Pera: to play music you have to be able to also hear notes separately
    Pema Pera: or understand separate ingredients in cooking
    Pema Pera: Corvi, did that make sense?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods and sends out the email she wrote just before this meeting..figuring she's gotten as close as she will.
    doug Sosa: i must go.. quietly withdraw.. thanks all :)
    Pila Mulligan: bye doug
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Doug.
    Pema Pera: bye Doug!
    stevenaia Michinaga: thanks Doug
    Pema Pera: the bottom line, I think, is that there is no "right" or "wrong" way to do these experiments, but rather that it is important to become aware of the distinctions
    Pema Pera: the incredibly richness in variety
    stevenaia Michinaga: and subtlty
    Pema Pera: the first time you taste wine it is just "ah, wine!"
    Pema Pera: yes, Steve!
    Pema Pera: and then "ah, this *kind* of wine"
    Pema Pera: and then "ah, Pinot Noir, from this chateau, this year"
    Pema Pera: we're learning to become friends with appearances
    Pema Pera: and we learn to recognize our friends, up close and personally
    Pema Pera: (Doug would have liked that :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: (scotch, in my example)
    Pema Pera prefers Pinot Noir
    Pila Mulligan: tofu for me :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I spent years seeking my favorite scotch, perhaps I should make the same journey with wine....smile
    stevenaia Michinaga: and your experiements, ofcourse, Pema
    Pema Pera: but is the distinction between "seen" and "seeing" clear, Steve and Corvi?
    Pema Pera: Earlier, the problem may have been that Doug did both :-)
    Pema Pera: I introduced this to him a year and a half ago, in person
    Pema Pera: much easier than through email
    Pema Pera: he clearly got it right away, bowled him over he said, and has been working with it since :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes..it makes sense.
    stevenaia Michinaga: it will as I spend time with it
    stevenaia Michinaga: doing will help
    Pema Pera: funny thing is, I think Cal came up with it out of the blue; I'm pretty sure I never mentioned it to her
    Pema Pera: but it is not so strange, after all, when you talk about subjects and objects, to consider switching roles
    Pema Pera: it is one of the many experiments I like to do myself, on the level of phenomena or appearances, if you like to call them with a simpler word
    Pema Pera: over the years, working with many different systems of meditation and contemplation, I've been culling what seems to be most direct and simple
    Pema Pera: During the first KPW, Kira Phenomenology Workshop, I thought we might pick the experiment I had mention earlier of walking in the park
    Pema Pera: seeing everything first as matter, then as light, then as experience then as sheer appearance
    Pema Pera: so I was happily surprised that another one was chosen during the first KPW
    Pema Pera: (does sound like a German car, doesn't it? PKW . . .)
    Pema Pera: oops: KPW
    Pema Pera: (you have BWM and DKW)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pema Pera: BMW, ach
    Pema Pera: W is Wagen in German, car, hence the final W
    Pila Mulligan: .. but will you still have Chevrolet, after next year?
    Pema Pera: the great vehicle of Kira Phenomenology !!
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol
    Pema Pera: yes, Pila, as a branch of goverment
    Pila Mulligan: maybe we can still to the walk in the park, Pema
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pema Pera: oh, sure, no rush, Pila
    Pila Mulligan: the treasury, no doubt :)
    Pema Pera: let's focus on one experiment at th time
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Pila Mulligan: from terms familiar in my point of view, your expereince, Pema, and this experiment, are connecting objectivity (as the first step) with substanceless fomr (as the ned)
    Pila Mulligan: form*
    Pila Mulligan: *end
    Pila Mulligan: it is the transiotn in meditaion, as I;ve seen, it from start to finish
    Pema Pera: that is one angle, yes, Pila
    Pema Pera: we tend to start with the rather narrow angle of objectivity
    Pema Pera: plus a belief in existence
    Pema Pera: and then we have to slowly open up the narrow angles to see more of what is really there, in reality
    Pema Pera: these are experiments in flexing muscles you didn't know you had
    Pema Pera: to open up wider
    Pema Pera: like someone who has been studying for many hours, has to straighten the back
    Pema Pera: many ways to do that, to escape from tunnel vision
    stevenaia Michinaga: you see applicaibility of this in the "outside world" Pema?
    stevenaia Michinaga: or just hsving the greater flexibilty in view
    Pila Mulligan: all this typing is just a poem, Pema - please don;t wait for me :)
    Pema Pera: I see it primarily as "pure research"
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods
    Pema Pera: and I know that "pure research" has given FAR GREATER applications than so-called "applied research"
    Pema Pera: (another word for prejudiced research)
    Pema Pera: (where you think you already know how to apply)
    Pema Pera: Doug testified to the good it has done him
    Pema Pera: for example
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire waves at leaving..see you all soon.
    Pila Mulligan: my favorite poem on the matter light experience appearance progression Pema referred to before (I've posted it here before, pardon the repition:) --
    Pila Mulligan:

    Without beginning, without end,
    Without past, without future.
    A halo of light surrounds the world of the law.
    We forget one another, quiet and pure, altogether powerful and empty.
    The emptiness is irradiated by the light of the heart and of heaven.
    The water of the sea is smooth and mirrors the moon in its surface.
    The clouds disappear in blue space; the mountains shine clear.
    Consciousness reverts to contemplation; the moon disk rests alone.

    stevenaia Michinaga: night Corvi
    Pila Mulligan: bye Corvi
    Pema Pera: Bye Corvi!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire reads the poem before leaving..Bye all thank you.
    Pema Pera: thanks for sharign the poem, Pila, hadn't seen that one yet
    Pema Pera: yes, powerfully evocative!
    stevenaia Michinaga: hmm
    Pema Pera: well, I have to leave too
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must go too, would you like me to take cate of the log, Pema?
    stevenaia Michinaga: care
    Pema Pera: great talking with you all!
    Pila Mulligan: same here, thanks
    Pema Pera: oh you mean posting, Steve?
    stevenaia Michinaga: sure
    Pema Pera: That would be wonderful
    stevenaia Michinaga: ok
    stevenaia Michinaga: you can add comments should you wish later
    Pema Pera: thanksa lot
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Pila Mulligan: aloha
    stevenaia Michinaga: keep dry Pila
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pema Pera: see you all soon again! 
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