2008.12.29 19:00 - Can compassion be excessive?

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    The discussion starts by discussing daily living and then moves to aspects of meditation and finally to compassion

    Pila Mulligan: hi there folks
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Pila
    Pila Mulligan: is this the time and place where Maxine and Pema are going ot do their discussion
    Pila Mulligan: ?
    Threedee Shepherd: No, that is tomorrow night at this time, as the corrected e-mail noted
    Pila Mulligan: ahh, well then, I'm early :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Only in certain of the parallel universes
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Squee: In the middle of a world that has always been a bit mad, the cat walks with confidence.
    Threedee Shepherd: How goes the construction, Pila?
    Squee: It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    Squee: The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education.
    Squee: The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.
    Squee: Education is a an admirable thing, but it is well to remember from time to time that nothing that is worth knowing can be taught.
    Pila Mulligan: today the plumbers came ... the begininig of the end -- it is really getting t be fun
    Squee: Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated.
    Squee: There are things that outweigh comfort, unless one is an old woman or a cat.
    Pila Mulligan: can I recommend one to Squee -- one of my favorites and most relevant to te past 8 years: a fool always finds a greater fool to admire him
    Adelene Dawner: cool ^.^
    Pila Mulligan: with luck, tomorrow, I'll have functional indorr plumbing :0
    Threedee Shepherd: ahh, 20th century modern
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Adelene Dawner: hehe
    Threedee Shepherd: electric?
    Pila Mulligan: yep, on the grid -- the elcetricians began their final stuff Saturday, setting up enough for the plumbers, so I've got about half a dozen live outlets :)
    Threedee Shepherd: neat, how do you get Internet?
    Pila Mulligan: I use Sprint Mobile Broadband -- like a cellphone, but only amodem -- all of 500k average :)
    Pila Mulligan: and I need an outdoor antenna to get that :0
    Threedee Shepherd: cable might be better, if available
    Pila Mulligan: yes, and they would charge only $10,000 to bring it the half a mile to here from where it is -- seriously, I almost fainted whent he guy told me that
    Threedee Shepherd: I assume the phone company soes not offer DSL, or perhaps does not even exist
    Pila Mulligan: he said they need 30 houses to do it at their cost and there are only a few houses nearby
    Pila Mulligan: no, they do, but only withinit 4 miles of a substantion
    Pila Mulligan: I had it before, in a house I was renintg for a couple of years here, and it worked fine
    Pila Mulligan: 2000k + consistently
    Pila Mulligan: I had just about given up when a nieghbor told me they used SPrint MObile Broadband, and it worked
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm, that's typically what phone DSL can do, although the advertise upto numbers that are unrealistically higher
    Threedee Shepherd: they advertise
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: Sprint has been touting their 4g network for 2009, so I'm waitnbg to see what it wil do
    Pila Mulligan: hi solobill
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Solo
    Solobill Laville: Heya, Pila, Ade, Three :)
    Pila Mulligan: I wonder what the yogic or metaphyiscal effect of purring is
    Threedee Shepherd: True, I have not seen him in a while....
    Threedee Shepherd: sorry folks, wrong box
    Pila Mulligan: IM eh
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: yes
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Pila, do you meditate regularly?
    Pila Mulligan: hi Sidona
    Pila Mulligan: yes, Three, I do
    Sidona Donogal: hi everyone
    Solobill Laville: Heya, Sidona
    Solobill Laville: Lucid dreaming...excellent :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Sidona, have you been here before
    Solobill Laville: (Sorry - reading Sidona's profile)
    Sidona Donogal: Yes. I have, read the website and everything
    Sidona Donogal: I se Solobill
    Threedee Shepherd: great, welcome back
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Squee: Everyone has their own magic because nothing is real.
    Solobill Laville wonders what the heck is a "Squee"?
    Pila Mulligan: did you see what is scheduled for here tomorrow at this time?
    Squee squeaks at Solo from his perch atop Ade's head.
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Solobill Laville: ahh..... :)
    Pila Mulligan: Tues here at 7pm: "consider aspects of Being and I will be bring in my understandings of the unconscious processes and dreaming especially in this regard. 30 min of dialog and then open questions."
    Solobill Laville tosses a small bit of cheese towards Ade
    Pila Mulligan is Offline
    Pila Mulligan is Online
    Solobill Laville: Who is that speaking tomorrow Pila?
    Solobill Laville: Vous?
    Squee sneaks down Ade's flank and contemplates for a moment befiore making a dash for the cheese.
    Solobill Laville keeps very still
    Solobill Laville: wb Pila
    Pila Mulligan: Maxine -- an Md
    Solobill Laville: ah, OK - thanks
    Pila Mulligan: thnaks
    Pila Mulligan: still laggy :0
    Squee hides in a hole in the cheese for a moment, then sticks his head out and twitches his whiskers at Solo.
    Pila Mulligan: mentioned MD for Sidona
    Solobill Laville would happily introduce Squee to the mice in his RL home...
    Pila Mulligan: Maxine and Pema will do the nitial dialog
    Solobill Laville: I know Max was a Doctor, thought a psychiatrist though
    Sidona Donogal: Maxine did a talk before. I gues I read it on the net, right?
    Squee ducks back into the cheese... those who listen very closely can here a quiet gnawing sound, from time to time...
    Solobill Laville: Yes, Sidona
    Solobill Laville: Hey, John
    John Texan: yello!
    Sidona Donogal: Hallo John
    John Texan: hi
    Pila Mulligan: yes, and she seems to be quite involved with dreams in her practice
    John Texan: i got a ?
    John Texan: how do u stream music
    Solobill Laville: ah, ok
    Solobill Laville: I'll tell you in IM John
    John Texan: k
    Pila Mulligan: hi John
    Sidona Donogal: Could you tell me too, please
    John Texan: hhi pila
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi john, we are a group that meets here daily to discuss life, reality and being and most anything else
    John Texan: yes..
    John Texan: im there
    Threedee Shepherd: The chat is recorded and posted on our web site
    Threedee Shepherd: John, this website is an introduction to the group http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    Claire Beltran is Offline
    Threedee Shepherd: Pila, I am interested in how meditation affects your daily life. I only do the PaB 9-sec regularly
    Pila Mulligan: sorry Three --laggy -- just saw your message from a minute ago -- it makes things more smooth, if you get the idea
    Threedee Shepherd: roughly ;>
    Pila Mulligan: noe i see my comments are taking a while to post -- smooth as in fewer ups and downs and sideawayses
    Threedee Shepherd: Sounds alot like the Prozac I take ;>
    Solobill Laville: hehe, or Scotch...
    Threedee Shepherd: Alcohol mainly upsets my gut :(
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Solobill Laville: Ooh...
    Solobill Laville: I find that both meditation and alcohol round my edges, but in very different ways ;)
    John Texan: I dont drink
    Threedee Shepherd chuckles
    John Texan: its not good for you if you drink excessive
    Adelene Dawner: now this is turning into an interesting topic... did you know I've never drunk alcohol?
    John Texan: but studies shown adults should drink 1 beer a day at night to clear there systems
    John Texan: its actually healthy for them
    Threedee Shepherd: Agreed, John. Fortunately, I get sick on more than about one drink equivalent of any form of alcohol
    Solobill Laville: Nothing excessive is generally a good thing...middle way, all the way
    Squee finishes his cheese and scoots back onto Ade's head.
    Squee: Don't be afraid to fail. Be afraid not to try.

    The discussion changes here to a question raised by Threedee about compassion

    Threedee Shepherd: Oh, can giving and receiving love and compassion be excessive?
    Solobill Laville is happy for Squee's courage to fail
    Adelene Dawner ooos at Three ^.^
    Solobill Laville: Depends, Three
    Solobill Laville thinks we lost Pila again
    Pila Mulligan is Offline
    Threedee Shepherd: on what, Solo
    Solobill Laville: yup
    John Texan is Online
    Squee giggles. that tickles.
    Solobill Laville: Expectations...
    Solobill Laville: Attachments to good feelings...
    Pila Mulligan is Online
    MystiTool HUD 1.3.0: Entering chat range: Pila Mulligan (3m)
    Sidona Donogal: Is Squee invisible?
    Solobill Laville: Does it flow "from" you? Does it flow "through" you?
    Threedee Shepherd: Good questions Solo, I am pondering
    Sidona Donogal: Both, I guess.
    Threedee Shepherd: Answers seem to depend on whether I want to get "metaphysical" or not.
    Sidona Donogal: Through you all the time, but then your consciousness has to kind of bundl it, and then from you
    Solobill Laville: Well, yes, but also very practical too
    Threedee Shepherd: Is love an intrinsic feature of Being?
    Solobill Laville: Something is expressed through me, that I would call love
    John Texan: well
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, Solo, I agree with that as a starting point
    Solobill Laville: Great question, though, Three
    John Texan: i think that love is an expression of ones self projected to another person which can never fall apart or be broken
    John Texan: an expression of kindness, gentleness, and friendship
    Threedee Shepherd: Say more please, John
    John Texan: in a special way
    John Texan: and i think love is a special kind of relationship
    John Texan: between 2 people
    John Texan: thats what i think love is in my eyes
    Threedee Shepherd: Can one love a group of people, as a group, as well as individually?
    Sidona Donogal: Sure
    John Texan: yes
    Solobill Laville: (Or the ocean, or a song, on a cardinal on a white snowy day)
    John Texan: one might have strong feelings to what a group is doing
    Pila Mulligan is Offline
    Solobill Laville: *or
    John Texan: Like how people say i love how they do this
    Sidona Donogal: A group can be a being itself and loved for what it is.
    Solobill Laville: yes, I'd argue that love can go beyond the individual
    Threedee Shepherd: This started by Solo referring to the "middle way" of no excess. I still wonder if there can be too much love?
    Sidona Donogal: Depends on what people understand to be love or mistakenly hold for love
    Sidona Donogal: Sometimes it is realy dependency or other strange stuff
    MystiTool HUD 1.3.0: Entering chat range: Pila Mulligan (3m)
    Pila Mulligan is Online
    Threedee Shepherd: True, I am not referring to that situation
    Adelene Dawner: depends on what you mean by 'too much' - I'd say Jupiter has too much gravity, but my perspective might not be the most relevant one in all cases ^.^
    Pila Mulligan: [big crash]
    John Texan: yes
    Solobill Laville: wb Pila
    John Texan: brb
    Solobill Laville smiles at Ade's example
    Pila Mulligan: thnkas, but I am goig to give up now due to technical difficulties -- sorry to miss the caht -- see you next time :)
    Solobill Laville: Bye, Pila
    Sidona Donogal: bue
    Threedee Shepherd: Can a parent love their child too much, assuming a normal overall situation?
    Adelene Dawner: cya, Pila
    Threedee Shepherd: bye
    Pila Mulligan is Offline
    Solobill Laville: To follow up Sid's comment, sure, but definitions of "love" can be quite subjective
    Solobill Laville: e.g. tough love, overprotectiveness, etc
    MystiTool HUD 1.3.0: Entering chat range: John Texan (15m)
    Threedee Shepherd: That's what I was trying to avoid by my "all else being equal" type qualification
    Sidona Donogal: And "normal overall situation" should be very rare in reality, I guess.
    John Texan: ok well i gtg
    John Texan: bye everyone
    Adelene Dawner: cya, john
    Solobill Laville: bye, John
    Sidona Donogal: bye
    Threedee Shepherd chuckles at Sidona's last comment
    Adelene Dawner: Three... too much for what?
    Solobill Laville: ah...is all else ever equal... :)
    Adelene Dawner grins at Solo. "That, too."
    Sidona Donogal: But if you are talking about real "ideal" love, there is no too much, if you ask me.
    [2008/12/29 19:56]  Threedee Shepherd: Well, I think that Solo's reference to the Aristotelian "middle way" echos the aphorism that too much of a good thing can kill you. That sounds sensible, but I am wondering if some forms of "non-possive" love can be an exception to that *rule*?
    Solobill Laville: What's "non-possive", Three?
    Threedee Shepherd: non-possessive
    Solobill Laville: ah
    Threedee Shepherd: non-possive is a typo
    Solobill Laville: I would think we agree...perhaps I am arguing the exception
    Adelene Dawner: A re-wording may be in order. I think we need a definition of 'love', and then the question re-worded as 'what would the grew up in an extremely loving situation?'
    Solobill Laville: Anything can be too much, depending...
    Adelene Dawner: *child
    Sidona Donogal: People experience love very differently in my experience. I tent to lke to melt in. Some people do not know what that could
    Solobill Laville: Melt in love?
    Sidona Donogal: See
    Solobill Laville: (nice picture)
    Solobill Laville: Like butter in pasta... :)
    Adelene Dawner: A definition we've used before, for love, is understanding+acceptance.
    Sidona Donogal: That is not enough for me.
    Sidona Donogal: You could do that all with you mind.
    Sidona Donogal: Where is the wormth in that? The heart?
    Threedee Shepherd: love for one's child also can involve affirmation of the child's intrinsic worth
    Solobill Laville: Sid, is love the cause, or the melting?
    Threedee Shepherd: So, Sid, what other terms would you add?
    Sidona Donogal: warmth, meeting of souls, joy
    Adelene Dawner: Warmth can be a result of that understanding+acceptance... if I understand that you like warmth, and accept that, wouldn't I naturally act warmly toward you?
    Sidona Donogal: Sometimes a person we love does things we can not accept.
    Adelene Dawner: o.O
    Solobill Laville: These defs of love, though wonderful often, are temporary, and have unavoidable opposites...
    Solobill Laville: warmth - cold, meeting - parting, joy - pain
    Threedee Shepherd: An adult's love for their infant is an interesting case because it is not reciprocated by a similar kind of love
    Solobill Laville: so, what is love then?
    Solobill Laville: Yes, Three, good point, and how much of that is hardwired from good ol' mother nature?
    Solobill Laville has two young children and has pondered that...
    Sidona Donogal: there is an opposite to love as well
    Sidona Donogal: at least in the profane world
    Solobill Laville: But there is a type of love that doesn't really have an opposite
    Threedee Shepherd: I have specifically avoided contrasting love with hate. DIchotomies are too Western/Greek. For some things their lack can simply be an absence, not an active opposite.
    Sidona Donogal: that would be the spiritual
    Solobill Laville: ah, yes, Sid, but maybe "mundane"
    Solobill Laville: (profane sounds a bit harsh - hehe)
    Sidona Donogal: I am fine with mundane. (English is a foreign language to me=
    Solobill Laville: ah, you use it dangerously well!
    Sidona Donogal: Thank you
    Adelene Dawner pokes Three and points to IM.
    Threedee Shepherd: AS it is to most of it's speakers, Sid ;>
    Solobill Laville: lol
    Sidona Donogal: If we talk about love in the spiritual sense, how could there be too much?
    Sidona Donogal: That is not really a question to me.
    Solobill Laville: That is a problem I'd like to see the world have to deal with ;)
    Sidona Donogal: which problem?
    Solobill Laville: If hypothetically too much "spiritual love" was a problem (which I think it is not, I must say) :)
    Solobill Laville would like to see the world try to have too much love
    Sidona Donogal: That explains it.
    Sidona Donogal: But whas it that what you meant Threedee?
    Threedee Shepherd: I think that is part of it, yes
    Sidona Donogal: Ok. What is the other part then?
    Threedee Shepherd: "the world" is abstract.
    Threedee Shepherd: So, I am mostly thinking of person by person
    Adelene Dawner: Again, too much for what? We still haven't adressed that.
    Solobill Laville: Abstract in terms of subjective epistomology?
    Solobill Laville: e.g. "my [abstract] world"?
    Sidona Donogal: I understood Threedee in the sense of too much to be healthy any more
    Threedee Shepherd: Can you harm another by giving too much non-possessive love?
    Solobill Laville: What if giving such love meant being nowhere near or contacting that person? That would be a requirement, I'd think
    Adelene Dawner: Well, if we're going by the definition of 'love' as 'understanding' (are we?), I suspect that an extreme degree of that would lead to an inability to function as a separate person... which could be good or bad, depending on your perspective.
    Solobill Laville: and that requires one to be able to step outside of their own way
    Solobill Laville: Ade, maybe understanding what to do and when, in terms of the other's best interest?
    Solobill Laville: (and not to do)
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Threedee Shepherd: No understanding could be perfect and all encompassing, so if there is not narcissism or possessiveness involved, individuation will probably occur
    Adelene Dawner: if you understand that as much or more than you understand your own needs...
    Adelene Dawner: we're talking about extreme states by definition, Three...
    Solobill Laville isn't so sure he agrees with Three's initial premise....
    Sidona Donogal: Maybe Three could say more precisely what that hurt could be in his eyes.
    Squee: We don't see things as they are. We see them as we are.
    Threedee Shepherd: Well, I doubt that there could be such hurt.
    Sidona Donogal: If there is no too much of that. Then it can not be in the realm "to much of everything is bad". That is your point, right?
    Threedee Shepherd: right
    Sidona Donogal: But there are other things, too. Like e.g. could you have too much earth under your feet?
    Solobill Laville tells Squee that we can learn that we are primarily self-created and nurtured phantasms, and can thus learn to step aside from our idea of what "we" are
    Solobill Laville throws more cheese...
    Solobill Laville: Well, to summarize, if I may
    Solobill Laville: the initial question was
    Squee is a touch less hesitant this time, grabbing the cheese and dragging it back to his perch atop Ade's head. *nom nom nom*
    Solobill Laville: is it possible have too much love
    Solobill Laville: I would at least posit that in the case of "spiritual", unattached, and flowing-though-me-love, no
    Threedee Shepherd: Agreed.
    Solobill Laville: But that may not be the run-of the-mill type of love...
    Threedee Shepherd: Perhaps the run-of-the-mill type love is something other than LOVE?
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Solobill Laville: perhaps
    Sidona Donogal: :)
    Solobill Laville: "If you love someone, set them free..." :)
    Threedee Shepherd: :)
    Solobill Laville is thinking how much he loves his pillow...
    Threedee Shepherd: Well, then go enjoy it ^.^
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Solobill Laville: Goodnight my two SL lions!
    Solobill Laville: And nice to meet you Sidona
    Threedee Shepherd: Goodnight, Friend :)
    Sidona Donogal: Goodnight Solo
    Solobill Laville: Time to join PaB, for you, methinks... :)
    Sidona Donogal: I have to go, too. Se you later. And thanks for the purring.
    Adelene Dawner: cya, Sid
    Threedee Shepherd: Goodnight, Sidona, nice to meet you :)

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