2009.11.23 07:00 - Reporting

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    YSBS, real-time...


    Kallie Kira: hi Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Kallie :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: How are you?
    Kallie Kira: good :) you?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Kallie, Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good thanks :) I almost went to library ... lucky I checked email this morning before I stepped out.
    Kallie Kira: hey Eliza :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh Gaya, you mean my reminder helped you? :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes!
    Eliza Madrigal: hah, oh good :)
    Kallie Kira: helped me too :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I forgot to add to my calendar somehow >.< so thanks.
    Eliza Madrigal: Excellent :) Glad we all made it then
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pema :)
    Kallie Kira: I see Pema's hair has arrived also :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Let me get the link to your scribe, Gaya...
    Pema Pera: Good morning, Gaya, Kallie, Eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema :)
    Kallie Kira: oh! body also!
    Gaya Ethaniel: heh :)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Kallie Kira: hi Pema :)
    Eliza Madrigal: http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Scribe..._-_Gaya's_Pick
    Gaya Ethaniel: http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Scribe..._-_Gaya's_Pick
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, not that one, Here: http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Scribe..._-_Gaya's_Pick
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh weird link
    Eliza Madrigal: ...strange :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, will have to figure that out
    Gaya Ethaniel: Just click one on the menu bar ...


    Gaya Ethaniel: Short one this month but I think a lot can be said for those posted ... what do you think?
    Eliza Madrigal: I wonder why you isolated the lines about we are seen/unseen... that was interesting to me...
    Gaya Ethaniel: I on purpose delete names of the speaker ... hope that's ok with you.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah that one is copied and pasted as it were ... think was a poem
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Resting :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Thor!
    Eliza Madrigal: I think it is interesting to delete the speakers' names... maybe sometimes when we are reading we have filters based on our impressions of personalities?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Resting :)
    Resting Thor: hi !
    Kallie Kira: hi Thor
    Kallie Kira: oh sorry, hi Resting :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sometimes I guess ... I just like to see the messages themselves first, it's fun that way :)
    Kallie Kira: I like that there are no names, you can make your own associations
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.


    Eliza Madrigal: We're talking about Gaya's scribe essay this morning, Resting... from the wiki. Each month various guardians take a few days and highlight what they find interesting/significant...
    Eliza Madrigal: So I asked Gaya about highlighting: "We are seen, but unseen We are here but not here We are"
    Kallie Kira: nothing grabbed you in the other sessions I guess?
    Gaya Ethaniel: There are a lot normally but this month, I tried to trim down to this sort of theme you see in the page.
    Kallie Kira: ah, ok, I get it
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, I certainly have tried to take cues from others more and more, in becoming an editor... doesn't seem to be natural to me..
    Gaya Ethaniel: So that's how it was written originally Eliza as a poem, not my formatting.
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, thanks Gaya, yes I see :)
    Eliza Madrigal: There are times when we can take various lines and they are so naturally poetic... :)
    Gaya Ethaniel nods :)
    Eliza Madrigal: The first session you highlighted is a great one, too, and ongoing?
    Eliza Madrigal: Our discussions about jihad/suffering?
    Gaya Ethaniel: "Just let things unfold" I read it as not hurrying or adding, try to clearly see first ... yes it's always ongoing :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: What do you see in it?
    Pema Pera: (okay, I finally found a way to display Gaya's URL here: http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Scribe..._Gaya%27s_Pick)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks so much, Pema
    Gaya Ethaniel: ty :)
    Pema Pera: it was the apostrophe that was entered wrong, also on the wiki -- I just corrected it on the wiki as well
    Pema Pera: (sorry to interrupt)


    Eliza Madrigal: Not hurrying/Not adding, yes that seems such rich territory, Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... thanks :) true, wiki doesn't like those symbols. I forgot.
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for catching that Pema.. an apostrophe awry is like a hair in a soup maybe... hehe
    Gaya Ethaniel: brb
    Pema Pera: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: back
    Eliza Madrigal: There seems a sense of trust in not hurrying or adding...


    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Vendy :)
    Vendy Walpole: Hello all :)
    Gaya Ethaniel listens.
    Eliza Madrigal: Can that be a kind of struggling? Learning not to hurry?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Vendy! :)
    Vendy Walpole: Hi
    Pema Pera: Good morning, Vendy!
    Vendy Walpole: Morning Pema, my afternoon :)
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks ... it can be difficult at times yes.
    Kallie Kira: hi Vendy :)
    Pema Pera: ah yes, of course


    Vendy Walpole: may I ask what is the topic about at the moment?
    Eliza Madrigal: Vendy, Gaya was highlighting themes from her scribe session this month, in particular a session on struggling... so we got to the topic of not adding/not hurrying...
    Kallie Kira: There seems a sense of trust in not hurrying or adding...
    Gaya Ethaniel: http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Scribe..._Gaya%27s_Pick)
    Vendy Walpole: thank you
    Kallie Kira: [7:18] Eliza Madrigal: Can that be a kind of struggling? Learning not to hurry?
    Eliza Madrigal nods... yes a sense of trust, which ties in so nicely with other discussions we're having at PaB, too :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'd be interested to listen more about this point, trust :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Me too :)
    Vendy Walpole: Yes, I' am interested too


    Gaya Ethaniel: Trust what? Trust the process of 'unfolding'?
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes that surely seems one aspect...
    Pema Pera: there are perhaps two kinds of trust, related to our earlier discussion about relative vs. absolute
    Pema Pera: usually we trust based on something
    Pema Pera: some kind of guarantee
    Pema Pera: some ground
    Pema Pera: but what this mysterious "Being" points to is the option to trust on a kind of groundlessness
    Pema Pera: very mysterious :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Pema Pera: unconditional trust
    Pema Pera: no conditions attached
    Gaya Ethaniel: Both are needed ... I don't think just one.
    Pema Pera: yes, sure!
    Eliza Madrigal nods..yes I just asked myself "Why do I trust this process here at PaB, so much at times... I can't base that on previous experiences... every day is new...so yes, that tension causes me to then surrender into a kind of larger framework which landed me here....
    Pema Pera: and we have to translate the absolute aspect into the relative aspect, in order to function (to Gaya)
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    Gaya Ethaniel listens out for 'and ...' from Pema :P
    Pema Pera: the relative trust is based on what we have, the absolute trust is based on what we are
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: and...?
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Gaya Ethaniel: I was expecting more heheheh
    Vendy Walpole: do you think that such unconditional trust is based perhaps on our intuition, whic can be like our personal advisor, what to trust or not?
    Pema Pera: hehehe
    Pema Pera: yes, we try to give it names: intuition, creativity, faith, grace . . . .
    Pema Pera: trusting the process, trusting the Universe
    Pema Pera: and . . . (!) . . . ultimately trusting Being in some form or other
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Resting Thor: or just gullible :)
    Eliza Madrigal: =P~
    Pema Pera: yes, that is also quite possible, Thor!
    Pema Pera: so buyer beware :)
    Kallie Kira: does unconditional trust include 'what to trust or not'?
    Resting Thor: haha
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, say more Kallie?
    Pema Pera: the challenge is to discriminate between what we have and what we are . . . .
    Gaya Ethaniel: Re: relative vs absolute, I saw an intersting example. A length of a string ... a limited length in a sense yet infinite in another and unmeasureable in yet other sense ... and I'm holding it :)
    Kallie Kira: [7:25] Vendy Walpole: do you think that such unconditional trust is based perhaps on our intuition, whic can be like our personal advisor, what to trust or not?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, thanks :)


    Vendy Walpole: unconditional trust follows, when we have a feeling we can trust
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, yes Gaya..three states at once... many, perhaps
    Vendy Walpole: or our intuitions let us trust in such way, my opinion
    Kallie Kira: is that unconditional?
    Vendy Walpole: hmm, I think it is
    Eliza Madrigal: Anything unconditional isn't comfortable at first I think... have to let down one's guard in a strange and to the way we normally do things/think, even crazy way
    Pema Pera: if we trust in a thing or person, that is conditional: a church, a friend, a teacher, a teaching, a symbol -- all those can be very good of course, and are probably really necessary . . . but they all are trust in something specific, something we have; unconditional trust is different, based on the confidence stemming from a beginning familiarity with what all those other items are pointing to, Being in some form
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm, nods
    Vendy Walpole: But we have evidence of existence of Being, don't we?
    Pema Pera: it's perhaps the other way around
    Resting Thor: we can apply logical criteria to trusting authorities...are they consistent, have they ever lied, do they match our previous experiences
    Pema Pera: Being is what gives the impression of things existing
    Vendy Walpole: So we trust something we know that exist
    Resting Thor: if we think we have a valid perception then we trust that perception
    Vendy Walpole: yes
    Resting Thor: we don't know anything "exists" truly
    Kallie Kira: unconditional, there is no other condition, it is the way it is - you love your child, that's the way it is, there are no conditions, that could be an example of unconditional
    Eliza Madrigal: isn't that still trusting in a small *i* sense of things? trusting "my" perception?...
    Pema Pera: it's very tricky and very subtle, and it is so easy to fool ourselves . . . logic will never get us there.
    Vendy Walpole: but ther should be a subject of trust we know that exist
    Pema Pera: no subject . . .
    Pema Pera: no I . . .
    Gaya Ethaniel: phone brb


    Resting Thor: r u saying you trust emotional states more than logic?
    Pema Pera: no, not at all
    Pema Pera: emotional states are as much conditional as logic
    Eliza Madrigal: So there are many ways to see this maybe... and then an even more radical opening way which can't really be captured... Hm.. no, not emtional....
    Eliza Madrigal: *emotional
    Eliza Madrigal thinks
    Vendy Walpole: could unconditional trust be developed through time or we simply have it or we don't have it in us?
    Kallie Kira: captured as in described, correct?
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Kallie Kira: "developed through time" suggests conditions
    Pema Pera: perhaps I'm overworking the metaphor of a movie, but the light of the projector is not conditioned on the emotions and logic portrayed in any of the movies that are being projected
    Pema Pera: that's a crucial question, Vendy!
    Resting Thor: i can't personnally detect any unconditional trust , depending upon what the definition sorts out to be :)
    Pema Pera: from the relative side, it *seems* to be developed over time
    Eliza Madrigal: Vendy, to my current thinking time holds it in a way?
    Pema Pera: no definition, Thor :-)
    Pema Pera: by definition no definition could possibly grasp something unconditional -- logically!
    Resting Thor: heheh....then it definitely doesnt exist haha
    Pema Pera: hahaha
    Vendy Walpole: fwhat feeds that development then?
    Vendy Walpole: what*
    Pema Pera: indeed, it comes before existence!
    Pema Pera: the appearence of (seeming relative) existence comes later
    Resting Thor: sounds like we're looking for the idea of a chair
    Pema Pera: it's the base of existence
    Kallie Kira: respectfully disagree Resting,
    Pema Pera: (to Vendy: causality in a movie is relative to the story; causility of the projector is totally independent)
    Gaya Ethaniel: back
    Gaya Ethaniel is reading what's been said ...
    Pema Pera: all zen stories point to just this
    Pema Pera: the unconditioned


    Vendy Walpole: why some people have the unconditional trust and others don't, what differs them?
    Resting Thor: so there are unconditioned existence of all ideas then?
    Pema Pera: nothing to do with ideas, I'm afraid, as far as I can see
    Resting Thor: is not trust an idea?
    Pema Pera: I don't know, Vendy; . . . Karma? who knows?
    Eliza Madrigal: :) It seems a bit like the risotto Gaya and I talked about one day... time allows something to cook...us really... that we can experience something hm..in a satisfactory way... the meal is eaten, gone, but a satisfaction is revealed?
    Vendy Walpole: we are born with it?
    Pema Pera: any word or concept is an idea, as such, but it can point to something beyond ideas
    Gaya Ethaniel: We can start with 'just letting things unfold' towards that Vendy :P
    Pema Pera: we are it
    Pema Pera: always already
    Kallie Kira: it's not a place to get to, it's what's so
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think 'We are' as the poem rather than 'we are it'
    Pema Pera: it's here, this is it, it is staring us in the face :)
    Vendy Walpole: just some are not aware
    Pema Pera: yes, Gaya, or just "are" :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Pema Pera: even that, Vendy, could be sharpened further . . . .
    Resting Thor: so trust without duality?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm mostly not aware either Vendy ... just trying out too.


    Pema Pera: . . . we can question whether there is a "me" or "us" who then is judged to be "not aware" . . .
    Pema Pera: we so quickly overshoot in our exploration, we run along, assuming all kinds of things: there is a me, it is not aware, okay, so now what
    Pema Pera: that may be overshooting right there and then already
    Vendy Walpole: I'm wondering is there such state like unconditional trust? Even for it, we need some prior sort of evidence, feeling, intuition or something to tell us, yes, that is it!
    Pema Pera: it is not a state, a state is something relative . . . .
    Vendy Walpole: What it is?
    Pema Pera: impossible to say in words
    Pema Pera: but possible to let reveal itself
    Pema Pera: traditionally through years of very intense practice; perhaps here through very intense engagement? The jury is still out, PaB is very young


    Gaya Ethaniel: These days, I think a lot about the phrase you came up with Pema, 'life as lab', see these things we talk about at PaB in how I go about in my life, interacting with people etc. rather than a set exploration/meditation. I guess that's why the last line jumped at me, being this application.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)the pointers are enjoyable... learning to appreciate and experience every little thing...
    Eliza Madrigal: so even though we are 'done' there is still a process....
    Pema Pera: yes, indeed Eliza! And the more we are engaged, the more likely we can begin to get a sense of the unconditioned
    Pema Pera: practices like YSBS and APAPB and PaB itself are steps in that direction
    Pema Pera: we can't expect to "get it" through a few conversations here, using a logical and conceptual mind. What we can all "get out of" these conversations are hints and inspiration to really engage, every moment of our waking life, with this kind of exploration of reality, in search of the unconditioned.
    Pema Pera: if and when we are ready to go all out, we will surely find it
    Pema Pera: or more precisely: it will find us


    Vendy Walpole: If you do not mind, i will use this occasion pema and ask you to tell us how do you experience YSBS, in short?
    Eliza Madrigal: Gaya, I was thinking that as the tools/explorations we engage in here become more developed/precise... we are able to carry them with us more...show up in all our activities
    Gaya Ethaniel nods :)
    Pema Pera: each time I do "you seeing Being seeing" I experience it differently, Vendy :)
    Vendy Walpole: please give any example youw ish
    Pema Pera: sure
    Vendy Walpole: will be helpful
    Pema Pera: in general, there is a sense of giving up, of stopping, of dropping, of shedding identification
    Pema Pera: and that can take many forms
    Pema Pera: hi Yakuzza!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hey, Ya! :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good day everyone
    Vendy Walpole: Hi Yaku


    Pema Pera: we can do this exploration now, and report, if you like; I'll do so too then
    Gaya Ethaniel: Quite inspirational to see practices affecting PaB members this way I felt re: the last line.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuzza :)
    Pema Pera: yes, Gaya!
    Pema Pera: in general, better to report new experiences rather than trying to remember old ones
    Vendy Walpole: Yes, we could, would be interesting
    Eliza Madrigal: We've missed the pause, but I could rezz a bell... keep time for everyone that way
    Pema Pera: great idea!
    Pema Pera: an unscheduled stop in the bus route of PaB
    Eliza Madrigal: Have to test first....
    Eliza Madrigal: hah
    Eliza Madrigal: That sounds clear to everyone?
    Gaya Ethaniel: mhm
    Vendy Walpole: very good Eliza, thank you
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay then :)
    Eliza Madrigal: So shall we try two minutes/two minutes...or?
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay... at 7:53, I will ring the bell for "You Seeing", then 7:55 switch to Being Seeing :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)



    Eliza Madrigal: So shall we report? Pema would you begin?
    Pema Pera: right in the first few seconds of Being Seeing: felt shoulders drop, heard birds more clearly, remembered some personal friction, realizing that I was still carrying that friction with me and now could let it go, felt very nice, cleansing, catharsis, deep breath, smile, amazing tool to let Being see, such a relief and release. (having done this exploration often, it sometimes seems to speed up; I'll spare you the rest, after the first seconds :-)
    Pema Pera: (took far more time to write than to experience :)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Vendy Walpole: thank you Pema, what happens when You seeing?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think Pema reported YS then BS ...?
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh ... must run. Thank you everyone, have a good day :)
    Vendy Walpole: Have a great day Gaya
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Gaya :) Bye
    Pema Pera: what I reported was only the beginning of the BS part
    Pema Pera: the YS, you seeing, part was much more normal
    Pema Pera: I looked at the screen, enjoyed the scenery, thought about work I had to do today
    Pema Pera: stuff like that
    Vendy Walpole: so You seeing is what our mind see?
    Pema Pera: no, very normal daily life
    Pema Pera: the way you normally see
    Vendy Walpole: yes, monkey mind :)
    Vendy Walpole: mine
    Vendy Walpole: :)


    Eliza Madrigal: heh, Vendy, may I ask what your experience was like?
    Pema Pera: identified with a physical body, with an emotional mind, the whol schlebang
    Vendy Walpole: Oh, I could try Eliza but think it is not very clear to me even yet
    Vendy Walpole: ok
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure, that's fine :)
    Vendy Walpole: so, I did notice what was on the screeen and Gaya's ears
    Pema Pera: :)
    Vendy Walpole: and thought about my new mouse;s avatar
    Vendy Walpole: then
    Vendy Walpole: focused to my breathing
    Vendy Walpole: then
    Resting Thor: i need to leave...thanks for the conversation :)
    Vendy Walpole: my focus expaned
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Resting :)
    Vendy Walpole: Bye
    Vendy Walpole: and I was involved in huge space as an observer
    Vendy Walpole: sounds were so clear and all sorts of sounds were coming from all over
    Vendy Walpole: that would be all
    Vendy Walpole: sorry if it has no sense
    Eliza Madrigal: That's great, Vendy... its wonderful sense
    Pema Pera: it's beautiful, Vendy!
    Pema Pera: thanks for sharing!
    Vendy Walpole: if you say so, i am glad :)


    Eliza Madrigal: When we're first reporting it can be so funny, I know
    Pema Pera: these kinds of explorations are really beyond sense or no sense
    Pema Pera: we start by groping in the dark, the more naively the better, really!
    Vendy Walpole: yes, true
    Eliza Madrigal: Kallie, have a report?
    Pema Pera: the less baggage we bring in, the more we can find something new
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe we can find new things in the baggage....heheh
    Eliza Madrigal: (sorry)...kidding :
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: hahaha
    Pema Pera rummaging through his backpack
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Pema Pera: Eliza, have a report?
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Vendy Walpole: Kallies's turn
    Kallie Kira: I saw a bird swaying at the top of the tree in the wind, swaying with it, swaying some more, it flew away and I see being looking indifferently at the place where someone died on my road Friday and there is not one scrap of evidence that it happened
    Kallie Kira: indifference
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh my...indifference?
    Eliza Madrigal: like distance?
    Kallie Kira: being cares not .... the physical world closes up around it, being is being
    Vendy Walpole: you mean as an observer - a sort of camera?
    Kallie Kira: no not a camera


    Eliza Madrigal: Well, during this exploration I saw myself as very clumsy...very limited....unprepared....shy, but then a kind of sense of elegance was shining through that during Being Seeing... so nearly the opposite experience I'd say... that I was there in Being/Being in me... a sense of unfolding embeddedness.... more 'there' there
    Eliza Madrigal: like tragedies which have happened I can see... but without the frantic trapped feeling....
    Eliza Madrigal: I can feel them and actually look rather than avoiding... and cry...and let it go....
    Pema Pera: (to Kallie, if I may:) we could also say: Being is the road, the car, the accident, the suffering, the death . . . and Being ultimately is beyond caring and not caring; neither a projection of a benevolent being in the sky, nor an indifferent law/principle . . . very hard to put into words.
    Kallie Kira: yes Pema it's everything, and my story about it is just that
    Eliza Madrigal: hm...
    Pema Pera: yes, I sensed that you meant that, I just tried to elaborate a bit more


    Pema Pera: thank you, Eliza, the part about `shy' and `cry' is very touching; opening up to Being corresponds to that `softness' that Maxine talked about yesterday morning.
    Vendy Walpole: yes, very open way to share, thank you
    Pema Pera: (and Vendy, no, not a camera, a camera would imply separation; Being is not separated from anything)
    Eliza Madrigal: the subject of emotion seems to come up over the last few days in sessions....
    Pema Pera: yes, a release perhaps
    Vendy Walpole turns to Yaku
    Pema Pera: opening up lets emotions flow more
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe as we're trying to settle into explorations and find the balance/tension between detached/engaged
    Pema Pera: yes!!
    Vendy Walpole: Will you share your experience Yaku?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: no, i am a ghost in here :)
    Vendy Walpole: Okay :)
    Kallie Kira: I should go
    Pema Pera: bye Kallie!
    Kallie Kira: bye :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye kalie
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Thanks so much Kallie :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye

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    Originally written on 20:27, 23 Nov 2009
    Ah, reading this over helped me relate to what Kallie's report pointed toward.. the same sense of 'done' or unconditioning, perhaps... not indifferent as in lifeless..hm.
    Posted 12:33, 9 Apr 2010
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