2009.11.26 01:00 - Transformation

The Guardian for this meeting was Fael Illyar. The comments are by Fael Illyar.

I found myself online at the time of my previous guardian slot and thought to see who took it and then found the pavilion empty. So I decided to take the job today since I could. Then Calvino arrived after a few minutes.

Fael Illyar: Hello Calvino :)
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: Hello Fael
Fael Illyar: How are you?
Calvino Rabeni: I'm good. It is later here, but I was at the computer anyway, so decided to drop in.
Fael Illyar smiles 'I don't remember seeing you often the times I'm awake.'
Calvino Rabeni: I think perhaps this is the first time?
Fael Illyar: yes, I can find many logs where you've spoken though, so I won't do the introductions :)
Calvino Rabeni: you think about the logs
Fael Illyar: So, have you tried the PaB practise?
Calvino Rabeni: Every 15 mins in this group.
Fael Illyar: ah, during the meetings?
Calvino Rabeni: YEs
Fael Illyar: but not elsewhen?
Fael Illyar: how do you find it?
Calvino Rabeni: I meditate, contemplate, and have awareness practices other than PAB. But it is similar
Calvino Rabeni: I think it is shifting my other practices a bit.
Fael Illyar: Oh, interesting. In what ways?
Calvino Rabeni: I leave a little time in those other practices to do something like PAB. And if I have little time, I do just that.
Fael Illyar: Ah :)
Calvino Rabeni: BUt the change is, I am using more flexibility and imagination
Fael Illyar: sounds great :)
Calvino Rabeni: I like it
Fael Illyar: more of exploration than just repeating what youve done in the past?
Calvino Rabeni: When I do PAB (as I try to understand it) I touch a no-mind experience briefly, but then immediately let something else arise, possibly within a setting of imagination or intention.
Calvino Rabeni: THe other practices have more of a fixed focus, either no-mind, or body sensing, or abiding on an object
Fael Illyar: that reminds me of an analogy I heard in Buddhism basics teaching a while back.
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: I'm interested
Fael Illyar: the teacher compared thoughts to flames and the mind to embers. He actually used a word that could be ground flame but ... his English was poor enough that I'm not sure :)
Fael Illyar: or ground fire
Fael Illyar: he spoke of how a pot full of embers (ground fire) can stay hot for days and be useful for warming the room and cooking food.
Fael Illyar: where an open flame can also work but runs out very fast.
Calvino Rabeni: right, it is good to conserve energy sometimes
Calvino Rabeni: and to know where to find it whey you want to use it
Fael Illyar: and he compared the usual mind to flames burning constantly.
Calvino Rabeni: it is good to beware of that
Fael Illyar: yes :)
Fael Illyar: the closest to meditation I've been doing lately is to lay down on my bed and just let whatever comes come and go... sometimes takes a while before they go but...
Calvino Rabeni: during the day?
Fael Illyar: yes
Fael Illyar: although, sometimes before sleeping too
Fael Illyar: also sometimes after I wake up as well.
Calvino Rabeni: that is a good time
Fael Illyar: yes, it is :)
Calvino Rabeni: before getting up is a good time to find those embers we talked about
Fael Illyar: sometimes it's ... hmm... I guess it could be described as replaying my dreams.
Calvino Rabeni: I like to do that with them too
Calvino Rabeni: it is like two people wh don't know each other getting together
Fael Illyar: then after some time it feels it's enough and I might stop with the dreams. Either get up or let whatever comes come and go.
Calvino Rabeni: and making a friendship
Fael Illyar smiles 'Yes.'
Calvino Rabeni: the dreams have gifts for me but perhaps I dont know it, unless I give them that attention
Fael Illyar: Yes, exactly :)
Calvino Rabeni: Often I do not "get" the gift - due to a prejudice or something - I try to get past that.
Calvino Rabeni: But it is essentially the same, like trying to understand another person.
Fael Illyar: Yes... the gift could even be freeing you from prejudice :)
Fael Illyar: Hi Love :)
Calvino Rabeni: A.A. I see you know each other
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: Hi, Cal....yes we know each other
Fael Illyar: yes, we do.
Calvino Rabeni: Partners in RL and SL?
Fael Illyar: we're on different sides of the world in RL :)
Archmage Atlantis: SL, I have no partner in RL
Fael Illyar: 7 hour time difference too.
Archmage Atlantis: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: I think it would be interesting to have both.
Archmage Atlantis: What is the top;ic
Calvino Rabeni: But it has never been that way.
Archmage Atlantis: Oh
Fael Illyar: dreams, meditation, PaB explorations
Calvino Rabeni: I was enjoying theconversation - was good
Archmage Atlantis: I have had 2 RL partners, one of 19 years and another of 16 years
Fael Illyar smiles 'Yes.'
Calvino Rabeni: those are long term, AA
Archmage Atlantis: That is not a story for here, tho
Calvino Rabeni: I dont make it past about 10 yrs
Archmage Atlantis: Are you in the US Cal?
Fael Illyar: I still haven't made it past 1 year.
Calvino Rabeni: But I get to have a bit more variety :)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and you?
Archmage Atlantis: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: 1 year. You must value your independence.
Archmage Atlantis: I was having a good pre-Thanksgiving day yesterday
Fael Illyar: I haven't gone looking for a partner even once actually :)
Calvino Rabeni: Not a priority then.
Calvino Rabeni: I have not looked either.
Calvino Rabeni: But sometimes I could not say "NO" :)
Archmage Atlantis: Then after I spoke with Fael yesterday, I got myself immersed in the usual family confusion that holidays bring
Fael Illyar smiles.
Calvino Rabeni: I have been hearing about that - it is an experience many share
Archmage Atlantis: I miss not being able to talk with Fael after bedtime where he is
Calvino Rabeni: Is in EUrope?
Fael Illyar: A lot of my time is spent doing RL things lately.
Fael Illyar: today I'm having a day off so to speak though
Fael Illyar: although, I might change that soon.
Archmage Atlantis: And after an active life, I am disabled and homebound with nothing but time *grin*
Calvino Rabeni: You have family to be "confused" by - that is something.
Archmage Atlantis: Change is always difficult
Fael Illyar: yes... especially big change.
Calvino Rabeni: I rely on the kindness of strangers during holidays.
Calvino Rabeni: What is it, Fael
Fael Illyar: the big change? Well... like daring to go out and meet new people :)
Archmage Atlantis: Ah, my famiily is my 2 ex's and friends who are busy trying to stay put together in this current economic session
Archmage Atlantis: I am all that is left of my "family" in the traditional sense
Calvino Rabeni: I think it would be fun to have a big event with ALL my ex-es.
Fael Illyar: have you tried to see if you could organize such?
Calvino Rabeni: Except the ones that dislike me :)
Archmage Atlantis: Well, do it then......invite them over for a holiday gathering before Christmas
Calvino Rabeni: THey are all in different cities or countries.
Fael Illyar: ah, you move about a lot?
Calvino Rabeni: Well, there's about 4 places.
Archmage Atlantis: An invitation doesn't determine they won't come, nor does it determine that they won't appreciate the gesture
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: We worry too much about other ppl's reactions
Fael Illyar: that we do...
Fael Illyar sighs.
Calvino Rabeni: DOes it change with age?
Archmage Atlantis: Smiles at Fael
Archmage Atlantis: Not that I've noticed, nor with practice, therapy, psych drugs, philosopy, or religion *smile*
Calvino Rabeni: Hmm
Archmage Atlantis: We do learn to deal with it better tho
Calvino Rabeni: Certain things are stable in a person
Archmage Atlantis: Well, some things we are born with, and some neural patterns were laid down in childhood
Archmage Atlantis: Just is
Calvino Rabeni: People go to those things you mentioned - hoping for a change, maybe desperate
Archmage Atlantis: Have to accept those things best we can
Fael Illyar: to worry is quite natural. Just... keeping the worry without actually settling with it is ... well, indecisive :)
Calvino Rabeni: BUt it seems somewhat misguided - the idea of getting a makeover, like remodelign a house
Archmage Atlantis: When I came out in the early 70s, no one accepted.....sometimes it is just reality
Fael Illyar: Yet, people do learn and change.
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, that is part of the point Fael
Calvino Rabeni: Indeed they do. BUt it isn't quite like they think ot will happen
Archmage Atlantis: One of my favorite quotes is from the theologian Paul Tillich
Fael Illyar: ah yes, no telling in advance what way the change will be :)
Calvino Rabeni: Because, they start often from the idea of disliking something about themselves.
Calvino Rabeni: And think they might get rid of it.
Fael Illyar: do they ask "then what?"
Archmage Atlantis: The courage to be is to accept oneself, in spite of being unacceptable
Calvino Rabeni: and so it is.
Calvino Rabeni: Radical acceptance is a good pre-requisite for change.
Calvino Rabeni: In my opinion
Fael Illyar: yes... I find that not accepting yoursef locks you ever more tightly to what you are.
Calvino Rabeni: yep
Fael Illyar: at that moment
Calvino Rabeni: Transformation is not a replacement. I think it's more like - getting bigger and encompassing what was there before.
Archmage Atlantis: Well put Cal
Fael Illyar: yes :)
Fael Illyar: becoming more, not less.
Calvino Rabeni: There are stories about exceptional people, but everyone cannot pin their strategy on it.
Calvino Rabeni: Better to start with the boring, unexceptional patterns of life
Archmage Atlantis: And sometimes saying, this is who I am, if you don't like it,then too bad, I'm staying at the table......feel free to leave if you want
Calvino Rabeni: they are not actually boring.
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: You don't have to change for me, and I don't have to change for you
Calvino Rabeni: If you mean a conflict, you could say - hey, I'm actually king of enjoying this conflict with you.
Calvino Rabeni: *kind of
Archmage Atlantis: I think I mean more than that, conflict implies one wins, one loses......I mean I accept you as you are, I am not frightened by whether or not you accept me
Fael Illyar: conflict does not imply the result...
Calvino Rabeni: Conflict doesn't have to be win/lose
Fael Illyar: yes, there are other ways a conflict can end
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe it goes on forever, too, that could be OK
Calvino Rabeni: it is not necessarily something wrong
Fael Illyar: and sometimes... when you lose, you then find out you actually won.
Archmage Atlantis: Agree Fae;
Calvino Rabeni: Can hapen Fael. Tai Chi teachings have a saying "invest in loss"
Archmage Atlantis: (forgive my poor typing)
Fael Illyar: our losses are our biggest successes... or perhaps even, our flaws are our greatest advantages.
Calvino Rabeni: If given respect
Archmage Atlantis: Have either of you seen the film "Milk"?
Calvino Rabeni: is on my list, but no.
Fael Illyar: no, don't think I have.
Archmage Atlantis: It is based on actual events I lived through, I reccommend it, even tho it glosses over the flaws of the main characters
Calvino Rabeni: What year was that?
Archmage Atlantis: It supprises me so few have seen it, since Sean Penn won multiple awards in the title role
Archmage Atlantis: The film was last year, the events were in the 70s or 80s
Fael Illyar: that's the mass market functioning.
Archmage Atlantis: Well, that can be changed too
Fael Illyar: it is changing
Archmage Atlantis: Men and women who change the direction of the world often don't live to see the results
Calvino Rabeni: Is it their death that makes it influential?
Archmage Atlantis: I hope not
Archmage Atlantis: I hope it is the power of their thoughts and belief
Calvino Rabeni: Not sure - martyrdom has power.
Archmage Atlantis: Many die with little impact
Calvino Rabeni: Many make changes, but are not noticed
Calvino Rabeni: But if they die, then they get noticed.
Calvino Rabeni: The attention does not accord to the virtue
Calvino Rabeni: Or power of their ideas.
Fael Illyar: ah yes... the positive attracts less attention than the negative.
Calvino Rabeni: Powerful ideas are often uoder the radar
Calvino Rabeni: Right
Fael Illyar: but when there is negative to attract that attention, even the positive can be seen
Calvino Rabeni: and then if they die, people notice their ideas, and if the think it was worth dying for, then they think more highly of the ideas because of what they cost.
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: I would not go there as a model
Fael Illyar: I think it boils down to the simple fact that the best way to influence others is by being a living example.
Archmage Atlantis: That I agree with Fael, that in my childhood faith is how I interpret the verb "to witness"
Calvino Rabeni: One likely to be an unsung hero then
Calvino Rabeni: Ii want to hear more
Calvino Rabeni: have you left that faith?
Fael Illyar: and when someone who lives by something dies defending that something...
Archmage Atlantis: Expanded it *smile*
Fael Illyar: that's the greatest living example that can be given.
Calvino Rabeni: can you say more about "witness"
Calvino Rabeni: ?
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, I enjoy sharing my experience and belief, and to witness what those are, to live a life by that example, has meaning for me......I accept that others witness their beliefs and faith in other ways
Archmage Atlantis: The one thing I cannot accept is to harm another
Fael Illyar: and yet, we all do that sometimes. We don't even always find out about it.
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, I agree, Fael
Archmage Atlantis: A conundrum
Fael Illyar: sometimes even the another who was harmed does not realize it.
Calvino Rabeni: THe basic idea of "witness" (thinking how to ask question)
Calvino Rabeni: ...?...?...?...
Calvino Rabeni: I think it's been used as if it is a way to persuade someone of a superior moral idea that they do not have
Calvino Rabeni: but I think it is really much more than that
Archmage Atlantis: To witness = (for me) to live a life true to myself, while continuing to examine that life, and sharing, if asked, that experience with others
Calvino Rabeni: It has been interpreted as "be a good example".
Calvino Rabeni: THere is more than that. But I'm not sure how to define it
Fael Illyar: a witness... someone who observes but is not involved.
Archmage Atlantis: Then when you try to define it, you are being a witness
Fael Illyar: a paradox in a way but one of the seeming paradoxes, not a true one.
Archmage Atlantis: Than is a modern definition, outside the tradition of thought that Cal and I are sharing, to my thought
Calvino Rabeni: I think the emphasis is on awareness. And since people think awareness is uninvolved, they assume witness must be that way too. But I think it actually has a power of involvement.
Archmage Atlantis: I agree Cal
Fael Illyar: involvement is a word that can be understood in a few ways.
Fael Illyar: and has aspects that do apply with a witness. And aspects that don't.
Calvino Rabeni: to give someone awareness - is like giving them being. It can change things
Calvino Rabeni: Although it is probably about both them and something bigger
Calvino Rabeni: And that makes it healing
--BELL--
Fael Illyar: a witness is not involved because because he is not personally affected directly by the witnessing.
Fael Illyar: a witness is involved because he does affect what he wittnesses
Archmage Atlantis: I do not think of it as giving someone awareness, I share what I see as my awarenesss, they decide if it has value for them
Calvino Rabeni: i agree but think that is giving
Calvino Rabeni: because they could wake up to it
Calvino Rabeni: Like Ghandi for example
Calvino Rabeni: He faced to power, and then people saw it was possible
Calvino Rabeni: the witness was witnessing a greater possibility outside the world of the other - if that happens, it is a giving
Calvino Rabeni: if they accede to it
Calvino Rabeni: Fael, do you feel you made your point?
Fael Illyar: Did I have one?
Fael Illyar: well, yes I did. I have no idea if you understood it.
Calvino Rabeni: I not sure either. There's a way a witness IS involved, and another way they AREN'T.
Fael Illyar: yes, that is basically my point.
Fael Illyar: I do not think the modern definition is really different.
Calvino Rabeni: Is that classic modern or post-quantum-physics modern?
Fael Illyar: it just fails to be clear about some things.
Fael Illyar: I don't know :)
Calvino Rabeni: THere's the idea that awareness changes its objects
Calvino Rabeni: That is the post modern
Calvino Rabeni: An maybe the ancient
Fael Illyar: ah...
Fael Illyar: either really
Archmage Atlantis: Nor do I, you will need to explain that a bit more,Cal, please?
Calvino Rabeni: THe old "modern" is that awareness doesn't change anything, that the observer is passive
Calvino Rabeni: I don't mean, you can change an apple into an orange, or some physical change.
Calvino Rabeni: Quantum physics is used a lot as an analogy.
Calvino Rabeni: BUt I think there are two different things going on.
Calvino Rabeni: In physics,you can't know about something without interacting with it, and that changes the thing.
Archmage Atlantis: Yes?
Archmage Atlantis: Agree
Calvino Rabeni: In phenomenology, people noticed that, when a subject encounters an object (subject is an entity), and apprehends something more about the object, then a mix occurs. The appearance of the object changes also, not just the idea that is in the subject. So it is not like,just getting better evidence.
Fael Illyar: that's the same with awareness... that's the idea right?
Calvino Rabeni: A similar thing, an analogy. Not literally the same.
Fael Illyar: Hello Geoff :)
Archmage Atlantis: I think it is more literal than analog.
Archmage Atlantis: When those of us who come here interact, we change each other
--BELL--
Geoff Baily: can i join you
Fael Illyar: Of course :)
Geoff Baily: not at all
Archmage Atlantis: Have a seat Geoff
Fael Illyar: but yes... when we come here and interact with each other, we all end up changed a little.
Calvino Rabeni: yes. An interaction is a mix of the subject and object. Both change. It is a little strange
Fael Illyar: but in here, subject and object are both subject and object.
Fael Illyar: and who knows, perhaps it's that way in every case :)
Calvino Rabeni: I think that is funny, did you mean it?
Fael Illyar: yes
Geoff Baily: thanks for letting me join you. do you mind if i just listen for a little. first time here
Calvino Rabeni: is a good point
Archmage Atlantis: We are deep in the woods of thought, so to listen is a good thing, as is to share
Fael Illyar: of course, participate as much as you feel comfortable with :)
Fael Illyar: I personally come up a bit blank trying to think of non arbitrary distinction between subject and object.
Calvino Rabeni: It is a strange change - when people's perspective changes, those S and O relationships change
Calvino Rabeni: The saying is, the subject becomes the object of the subject of the next phase
Calvino Rabeni: But maybe, beware of too much objectification in self observation
Calvino Rabeni: Because objectifying, although it gives power, has a cost.
Fael Illyar: to say object is a way to limit what you see.
Calvino Rabeni: yes it is
Fael Illyar: too many blindfolds and... well, you won't see much :)
Fael Illyar: or perhaps veils
Calvino Rabeni: Or like a box or a package. People put things in boxes in order to carry them around, but durign that time they can't interact with what is inside. THat's the point.
Fael Illyar: yes :)
Calvino Rabeni: It can't be in the box and outside at the same time.
Calvino Rabeni: BUt shifting back and forth may be possible
Archmage Atlantis: That I think, is what the PaB practice is about, to see outside the blindfold/box
Calvino Rabeni: Objectifying is super-handy
Fael Illyar: yes, you can look at the box instead of what you put i it :)
Calvino Rabeni: yeah
Fael Illyar: less information there
Calvino Rabeni: informaation is a weird concept too - it's really about,how much do you choose to ignore
Fael Illyar: yes :)
Fael Illyar: that is knowledge
Calvino Rabeni: are you distinguishing information and knowledge?
Fael Illyar: only in that knowledge I think of as something I have and information might also be knowledge but not necessarily.
Archmage Atlantis: Knowledge is a true paradox, it is both what one sees, and what one does not see
Geoff Baily: perhaps it is about the context
--BELL--
Fael Illyar: context... as in what is put in view?
Archmage Atlantis: Context certainly plays a role
Fael Illyar: knowledge requires view to be of use.
Fael Illyar: if the view doesn't match...
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, information is when you put knowledge in a box, and forget who it belongs to and where it came from. That is, you throw away the context
Calvino Rabeni: It is very tricky. Do you know the story of Paul Revere during the american revolution?
Geoff Baily: it is also perhaps knowing what is not in the box too
Fael Illyar: no I don't
Calvino Rabeni: Famous american story. He was during the revolutionary war - he wanted to send a message to someone over a great distance.
Calvino Rabeni: He rode the horse at night to see what the british army was doing
Archmage Atlantis: He was a cabinet maker, right?
Calvino Rabeni: and arranged a signal for his compatriot far away.
Calvino Rabeni: He would light some lanterns in a tower.
Calvino Rabeni: "One if by land, and two if by sea"
Calvino Rabeni: THusly he sent the message.
Calvino Rabeni: But the british didn't have the context, so it meant nothing to them
Calvino Rabeni: and it only meant something to his compatriot because the already agreed on the code
Fael Illyar: yes, they lacked the key...
Calvino Rabeni: and the context also included, a war was gooing on
Fael Illyar: the key that matches the information to reality.
Calvino Rabeni: SO the information has no intrinsic meaning whatever
Calvino Rabeni: while the context is infinite.
Archmage Atlantis: Keys only work until the lock is picked,,,,Navaho Codetalkers flumixed the Germans, as their language did not fit any known patterns......I doubt that would work today
Calvino Rabeni: Normally people are trying to be understood, and it's not too difficult, but the myths of information emphasize the difficulties
Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes makeing them on purpose
Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes being afraid of them
Archmage Atlantis: A story then
Calvino Rabeni: The broken cases don't really illustrate the more fundamental nature of the phenomenon
Calvino Rabeni: The normal cases work better
Calvino Rabeni: OK AA, a story
Calvino Rabeni: Tell me a story
Fael Illyar: the problem of communication... understanding the key the person you're speaking to is using to interpret your words.
Calvino Rabeni: But the key is the world, and we all live inside it
Archmage Atlantis: There is a room with 4 doors, behind 3 of the doors is a tiger ready to eat the man - 4 men enter the room - who survives?
Fael Illyar: we all hold different parts of the key
Fael Illyar: no-one hold the entire key
Fael Illyar: the one with the most patience.
Fael Illyar: (or the one who understands to leave by the door he came in through)
Archmage Atlantis: It is a thought exercise, not an equation for solution
--BELL--
Fael Illyar: well, with patience, I meant waiting until the 3 others try enough doors to find the one without a tiger... although ... that assumes he tiger is only dangerous to the one opening the door.
Calvino Rabeni: Probably they all survive, since either the tiger ate the 5th man or they came in through the safe door
Archmage Atlantis: Chuckles
Calvino Rabeni: Reminds me of a different tiger story
Archmage Atlantis: K, please share Cal
Calvino Rabeni: OK, in brief
Calvino Rabeni: A tiger caught a fox. The tiger was going to eat the fox.
Calvino Rabeni: But the fox said - I wouldn' tdo that if I were you.
Calvino Rabeni: Why not, said the tiger?
Calvino Rabeni: Because I am the supreme ruler of this territory, said the fox.
Calvino Rabeni: OK prove it,said the tiger.
Calvino Rabeni: SO the fox and tiger went walking around, and wherever they went, the other animals acted very afraid.
Calvino Rabeni: The tiger thought they were fearing the fox because the fox was powerful.
Calvino Rabeni: So he let the fox go.
Archmage Atlantis: chuckles again
Calvino Rabeni: Actually it was only because the tiger was following the fox, that caused theother animals to flee. But you're supposed to puzzle that out.
Fael Illyar smiles 'Yes.'
Calvino Rabeni: Might have lots of interpretations I guess
Archmage Atlantis: Sometimes brains win, sometimes brawn win
Fael Illyar: cunning fox :)
Geoff Baily: context?
Calvino Rabeni: Also maybe, about subject / object, like we wer into before
Archmage Atlantis: Sometimes both are lost to geology and time
Fael Illyar: yes, the lion forgot about himself and who he is.
Calvino Rabeni: right
Calvino Rabeni: he is the subject
Geoff Baily: going back to the problem of the 4 men. Could it be that the esponse is 'a man' they are not individualized!
Fael Illyar: it doesn't have to be just one you know :)
Archmage Atlantis: It is merely a story Geoff, if we knew, it would be science
Calvino Rabeni: Darn
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Fael Illyar giggles.
Fael Illyar: but it's fun to observe your thoughts going about in circles trying to figure it out
Calvino Rabeni: I have enjoyed this session, but must go, before the new day dawns.
Fael Illyar: Allright, thank you for coming Calvino :)
Fael Illyar: It's been a good session :)
Calvino Rabeni: any time
Calvino Rabeni: hearts, then
Archmage Atlantis: Make me think of the lyrics to a song
Geoff Baily: thankyou
Archmage Atlantis: It's a new day, it's a new life
Archmage Atlantis: Worship of the sun is not without merit
Archmage Atlantis: Even tho it is a small, insignificant sun
Archmage Atlantis: In the outer reaches of a vast galaxy
--BELL--
Geoff Baily: its the only Sun we have. There are many stars but only one Sun
Fael Illyar: Ah, it's time for me to go.
Fael Illyar: I hope I'll see you here some other time too, Geoff :)
Archmage Atlantis: To Ra. the sun god
Fael Illyar: there's a meeting here 4 times every day at 1,7,1,7 am and PM
Archmage Atlantis: chuckles
Archmage Atlantis: Adios
Fael Illyar: Second Life Time
Geoff Baily: I will be here again i think bye
Fael Illyar: (3:49AM right now)
Fael Illyar: there's a notecard in the info givers hat has the details
Fael Illyar: also the wiki has details http://playasbeing.wik.is/
Fael Illyar: but for now, bye :)
Fael Illyar: nice having you here!
Geoff Baily: bye