2011.01.02 01:00 - Enjoing the Release of Just Being

The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera. The comments are by Pema Pera.

Korel Laloix: osiyo
Archmage Atlantis: Hello
Korel Laloix: Freud's new AV I am.
Archmage Atlantis: Ah
Pema Pera: hi Arch, Korel, Kit!
Kit Ciaco: Hey!
Korel Laloix: heya
Archmage Atlantis: Your highness
Pema Pera: any particular topic that anybody would like to talk about today?
Archmage Atlantis: The future of PaB......though that doesn't fit
Kit Ciaco: I have a thought
Kit Ciaco: oh, sorry
Archmage Atlantis: Kit, ty, that is exactly the future
Pema Pera: the future of PaB is totally openended -- but we can of course talk about that, sure :-)
Pema Pera: and Kit, what did you think about?
Kit Ciaco: LOL, AA
Kit Ciaco: Well, I've been bothered about something about myself since I came here yesterday
Kit Ciaco: I feel I owe folks here a bit of an apology
Korel Laloix: OK
Pema Pera: in what way, Kit?
Kit Ciaco: I think I am at odds in a way - with the conversastion we had re analysis
Kit Ciaco: I was an analyst much of my life
Kit Ciaco: and enjoyed it
Kit Ciaco: but as I have gotten older I have become much less so - more oh, what's the word??? intuitive without thinking so much about it?
Kit Ciaco: more open to what is and not too interested in what makes it so
Kit Ciaco: and I feel I was impatient with others on a different path
Kit Ciaco: and this has disturbed me throughout the day
Pema Pera: it's very nice to be so sensitive, Kit
Korel Laloix: How were you impatient?
Kit Ciaco: I don't think I was rude operationally
Kit Ciaco: But I felt impatient
Kit Ciaco: and ashamed at my impatience
Yakuzza Lethecus: good morning
Kit Ciaco: I felt almost flippant.... because humor has become very much my core

I think we all recognized what Kit was trying to express, and I was impressed with him doing so.

Pema Pera: a sign of learning more is to become more and more ashamed, I think . . .
Kit Ciaco: and explainations not so critical to me anymore
Kit Ciaco: I wonder
Pema Pera: hi Yaku!
Pema Pera: the more we open up and sensitize, the more we see, including things we don't like -- about ourselves and others
Archmage Atlantis: Morning, or midda, or afternoon, or midnight Yau
Archmage Atlantis: *Yaku
Kit Ciaco: Yes. I just don't want to be offensive
Pema Pera: and the challenge is to accept all that -- both in ourselves and others
Kit Ciaco: especially on my first visit, for goodness sakes!
Pema Pera: yes, I appreciate that, Kit -- I feel very similar
Pema Pera: hi O !
Kit Ciaco: Yes - I like learning from the paths others are on
Pema Pera: every day there are so many things that I feel ashamed of, to some extent
Pema Pera: wondering whether I will ever learn :-)

Kit then provided the inspiration for the title of this session:

Kit Ciaco: I think after years of having to THINK and ANALYZE I have just enjoyed the release of just being....
Kit Ciaco: if that makes any sense
Pema Pera: at the same time I'm grateful to be able to learn more
Pema Pera: it does!
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, it makes total sense to me, Kit
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey sam
Kit Ciaco: Thanks
oO0Oo Resident: hey everybody
Archmage Atlantis: Hiya O

Kit brought up a crucial question:

Kit Ciaco: So - in a broader way - I was wondering - how do we feel and engage authentically without sacrificing other values
Pema Pera: it is paradoxical, but the challenge is to both accept ourselves and also to be ready to change -- in terms of dropping what is no longer needed
Kit Ciaco: that's what I'm saying
Kit Ciaco: for myself, I really have let go of wanting to learn some of the things I wanted to learn years ago
Pema Pera: what we feel ashamed about are add-ons, that once felt necessary to protect ourselves
--BELL--
Kit Ciaco: and being more interested in compassion and just being
Kit Ciaco: respect and honor
Kit Ciaco: but not so much analyyzing it
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey qt
Archmage Atlantis: If I may offer a differing thought, one does not have to drop who one is to proceed on a different path
Kit Ciaco: BUT! The group seems very scientific based - so I'm wanting to explore my potential place in it
Kit Ciaco: AA - I absolutely agree with you!
Kit Ciaco: Thanks
Qt Core: hi all
Pema Pera: hi Qt!
Pema Pera: if scientific means openminded and willing to experiment, yes, then we are scientific :-)
Qt Core: the science or the art of being ? Interesting dilemma :-)
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: the art of science
Pema Pera: hi Calvino!
Qt Core: art of science = Leonardo da Vinci in my opinion
Calvino Rabeni: Hello everyone
Qt Core: hi Cal
Pema Pera: btw, I haven't posted the log of the last session, but it seems like some of you went on for more than four hours!
Archmage Atlantis: I respect Leonardo
Calvino Rabeni: it was long
Pema Pera: (I'll post it soon)
Calvino Rabeni: a good session
Calvino Rabeni: I have photos to add
Kit Ciaco: I agree!
oO0Oo Resident: guilty
Pema Pera: thanks, Cal!
Kit Ciaco: I may be wriggling around in semantics - I do that sometimes, I'm told
Pema Pera: I remember one occasion where one session spilled over into the next -- perhaps that happened only one time :-)
Calvino Rabeni: No, I've been to maybe 3 that passed the 6 hour mark

I hadn't realized there had been several other ones that long!

Pema Pera: in what way, Kit?
Archmage Atlantis: Semantics is just a way to say
Qt Core: wondering about its topic[s]
Pema Pera: wow, Calvino, three !?! recently?
Kit Ciaco: Well, you are so correct - about science being about quest
Kit Ciaco: and so is spirit
Kit Ciaco: so at some level they may actually be very much the same
Archmage Atlantis: * I don't unerstand*
Kit Ciaco: The searching
Kit Ciaco: I think my quest has taken me from high language and led me more to laughter
Kit Ciaco: less words, more music
Pema Pera: what I think is special about science is that you get browny points both for coming up with an interesting new idea and for shooting down an interesting new idea -- it is bipartisan, progressive and conservative at the same time
Kit Ciaco: I'm really not making as much sense, but somehow I'm feeling more clarity inside
Pema Pera: oh, you do, Kit :)
Kit Ciaco: I love that, pema
Pema Pera: including shooting down your own ideas :-)
Kit Ciaco: Thanks - well, I don't want to monopolize - I just wondered what others thought about it
Archmage Atlantis: You are still into brownie points, Pema?
Kit Ciaco: LOL! I shoot down my own ideas all the time!
Kit Ciaco: My favorite quote is Richard Bach - "Everything in this book may be wrong."
Calvino Rabeni: Mine just crash of their own weight
Pema Pera: :)
Kit Ciaco: hehehehe, Calvino!
Archmage Atlantis: To me. that is am absolutist point, Kit
Kit Ciaco: I don't know what that means AA
Archmage Atlantis: To me, there is no one right theory
Kit Ciaco: oh, yes, absolutely!! Oh. (blushing) yes, I see....
Archmage Atlantis: Only the the theory that applies with the data at hand
Calvino Rabeni - Excuse me, I have something to attend to
Calvino Rabeni: bye :)
Pema Pera: bye Cal !
Qt Core: bye Cal
Archmage Atlantis: where is that dang bell
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye cal
Archmage Atlantis: Bye Calvin

I was curious to hear more about Kit's change of perspective.

Pema Pera: Kit, was there anything that changed your orientation, or did it happen gradually?
Kit Ciaco: Let me think..... it was gradual
Kit Ciaco: I was a college instructor for years
Kit Ciaco: and I noticed I became increasingly less fascinated by "facts" and theories and more enamoured with style and gray areas
--BELL--
Korel Laloix: I saw that a lot in my uncdergrad professors.
Kit Ciaco: I think, though, that it depends on what area we're talking about - for example, in hard science I WANT the facts and theories
Pema Pera: oh sure, there is nothing wrong with facts
Kit Ciaco: but in softer science, like my field, and in arts, mI'm more interested in the nuances and not so interested in the analysis
Claire Maskelyne: Hello, everyone.
Pema Pera: hi Claire!
Kit Ciaco: hi!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello claire
oO0Oo Resident: hi claire
Qt Core: hi Claire
Korel Laloix: bozho
Archmage Atlantis: Greetings, C;aire
Pema Pera: every area of study has its own logic, its own set of "facts" or "phenomena" that are central
Pema Pera: which is what makes interdisciiplinary collaborations so much fun, and also often exasperating :)
Pema Pera: hi Tallin!
Archmage Atlantis: *No polite way to avoid mispelling a nam8
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bert :)
Pema Pera: ah, okay!
Claire Maskelyne sighs. 'From the popular literature I'v been reading, I would think the scientific fields have become more venomous.'
Tallin Dezno: title yellow bertram
Pema Pera 's head is spinning with all those new alts . . .

Perhaps I should make a cheatsheet :)

Kit Ciaco: fascinating, Claire!
Archmage Atlantis: Hello Tallin. nice to meet you
Tallin Dezno: ty ... :-)
Claire Maskelyne: Hello, Talin.
oO0Oo Resident: Hi tallin
Korel Laloix: What do you mean by venomous?
Archmage Atlantis: Yeah. come home Pema
Claire Maskelyne: Specifically, the division of 'hard' and 'soft' sciences, and Dawkins introducing a period of particularly angry and short-sighted scientific materialism.
Kit Ciaco: Claire, you've hit the nail on the head
Archmage Atlantis: If it was proposed as an idea without agenda, then it's k
Korel Laloix: OK.. Scientific Materialism?
Claire Maskelyne: I feel like I've noticed something in the recent years where there's this incredible bile permeating the realms of physics and neuroscience, in particular.
Archmage Atlantis: Problem with humans is agendas
Kit Ciaco: I mean - my wrestling has been about my impatience with ideologies and isms
Kit Ciaco: I've become more focused on simple compassion - which has alot of fascinating forms and styles
Claire Maskelyne: Scientific materialism... want to explain that, Pema?
Pema Pera: who, me?
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera looking left and right
Archmage Atlantis: Yea, you......you started this forum
Pema Pera: what would you like to hear about that, Claire?
Claire Maskelyne: What is your explanation of scientific materilism? Because at this moment I'm too angry to formulate an unbiased definition.
Korel Laloix: biased answers are typically more honest. so I prefer those sometimes.
Pema Pera: anything can be taken in a materialist way -- Trungpa wrote a book titled "spiritual materialism"
oO0Oo Resident mental not: Thank Pema for starting forum I hang out in so much
Archmage Atlantis: May I make a suggestion?
oO0Oo Resident: oops
Pema Pera: any time, Arch, including making suggestions to make a suggestion :)
Archmage Atlantis: ever trust a cat not to have an agenda, and no, that wasn't the response
--BELL--
Tallin Dezno: what is bad with agendas - especially when they are not "too fixed" ?
Claire Maskelyne: Scientific materialism, at its heart, is the contention that all things in the universe have their origin in physical processes.
Archmage Atlantis: [01:39] Claire Maskelyne: I feel like I've noticed something in the recent years where there's this incredible bile permeating the realms of physics and neuroscience, in particular.
Archmage Atlantis: That is part of the process
Tallin Dezno: one can be lost in science ...
Archmage Atlantis: If we don't feel it, we don't care
Pema Pera: yes, that can create serious problems, Claire, such a narrow view
Claire Maskelyne: Somewhere along the way, this started to boil down to 'there is no God, there is no basis for anything in the realm of the paranormal, there is no afterlife, there is no free will, deal with it'.
Pema Pera: people tend to want to simplify their understanding, and that creates "isms" of many kinds . . .
Claire Maskelyne: And this, it seems, kicked off an angry ideological war that split people in the scientific world apart.
Pema Pera: any ism is a place for a mistaken kind of shelter

Alas, time for me to take off.

Pema Pera: btw, I'll have to leave in a couple minutes -- dinner appointment
Tallin Dezno: but when one knows that one doesn´t really know , one is protected . so do i feel al least
Kit Ciaco: Aren't "isms" a kind of stereotypical shorthand of sorts?
Kit Ciaco: Agreed, Tallin! There is great refuge in unnknowing....
Pema Pera: sure, and they are only problematic if you believe in them to the exclusion of other ides
Tallin Dezno: i´m happy that i met you again since quite a long time pema - have a nice 2011 ! :-)
Pema Pera: thanks, Tallin, u 2 !
Claire Maskelyne: Suddenly, everyone had to take sides in the debate, and when people had to take sides in the mistaken dichotomy of religion-versus-atheism that shouldn't even be there in the first place, scientists everywhere started to adopt the new expedient of making up their minds about what was true about the universe, and pushing all of their innovations towards explaining a universe with or without God.
Qt Core: bye Pema, have fun
Pema Pera: nice to see you all again -- take care!
Archmage Atlantis: Via con Dios, Pema
Claire Maskelyne: Oh, goodbye, Pema...
Claire Maskelyne: This wasn't helped by the publishing of The God Delusion, which... well... let's just say that Dawkins is attacking a straw man in the book that barely exists.
Archmage Atlantis: Does your job or your livelihood require you accept what Dawkins says, Claire?
Korel Laloix: Dawkins is good for a gigle though.
Claire Maskelyne: No, it doesn't.
Claire Maskelyne: But the way his ideas have gathered momentum makes me afraid.
Archmage Atlantis: Good
Claire Maskelyne: If that makes any sense.
Archmage Atlantis: Create your own momentum........just don't expect immediate results
Claire Maskelyne: Are you addressing me, Archmage?
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, Claire, and ty for asking
Claire Maskelyne: And how would you propose I do such a thing?
Archmage Atlantis: I have often gotten lost in conversations by not knowng to whom I was truely talkin
Claire Maskelyne: Because thanks to the mentalities that have resulted from the creation of the false dualism that Dawkins espouses, everyone on either side of the debate now chooses to shut themselves deeply into their own way of thinking.
Claire Maskelyne: I don't know of many people that would be converted by logic at a time like this.
Kit Ciaco: That can be said of nearly any debate over any system of thought, I think....
Archmage Atlantis: I would propose a bridge
Kit Ciaco: a bridge! I like that!
oO0Oo Resident: I like this Richard Feynman quote: “Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts”
Kit Ciaco: LOL, Sam - and well put!
Tallin Dezno giggles
Claire Maskelyne: What 'experts' though?
oO0Oo Resident: well I think it points to a need to clarify terms for sure
Archmage Atlantis: expert. to me, it is any entity that thinks e knows the answer
Tallin Dezno: in my mind occures : "i prefere being instead of asking - and that does not men, that i don´t ask. it only says : i prefere being instead of asking" ...
oO0Oo Resident: really what the scientific method is and what it is not
Tallin Dezno: mean*
Kit Ciaco: In the social sciences we ran aground when we tried to apply the scientific method to humanity en masse
--BELL--
Claire Maskelyne: That's the thing! It's not about a method anymore. It's a bunch of either/or philosophies that are becoming institutionalized.
Kit Ciaco: Claire - I'm wondering - haven't we had this dynamic for centuries, though?
Tallin Dezno: why care for institutions ? better focus on life quality. can be stronger
Claire Maskelyne: I don't think it ever felt so pressing.
Claire Maskelyne: I care for institutions because I don't want the athiest side of the argument to claim total scientific backing, to claim that they are inherently right.
Kit Ciaco: Change begins at the individual level....
Tallin Dezno: that´s it
oO0Oo Resident: no one can steal another's epistemology, can they?
Korel Laloix: Atheists are much easier to get good grades out of though....
Claire Maskelyne: Good grades?
Korel Laloix: College classes.
Claire Maskelyne: How would you know?
Tallin Dezno: i think, there is even no consensus about "what god is" (!) ... so already from that struggling about that is quite strange ...
Archmage Atlantis: *chuckles* - time for making diner
Korel Laloix: I think what you are describing is rather obvous to us students as wel.
Archmage Atlantis: Oh, hi Alfie
Claire Maskelyne: And yet, that's exactly the flavor the debate takes.
Tallin Dezno: bye arch - enjoy your meal :-)
Alfred Kelberry: hello, pablings :)
Tallin Dezno: and hi alf :-)
Archmage Atlantis: Good luck with this crowd
Alfred Kelberry: tal :P
Qt Core: Hi Alf
Tallin Dezno: lol arch
oO0Oo Resident: bye arch
Kit Ciaco: lol
Alfred Kelberry: good solid crowd :)
Korel Laloix: lol
oO0Oo Resident: solid ideas
Alfred Kelberry: i was afraid it'd be empty at this hour
Alfred Kelberry: i think it's yaku. he creates a comfy atsmophere :)
oO0Oo Resident: now we're boxed in :)
Tallin Dezno: it´s said : only beyond hope and fear freedom exists ... ;-)
Kit Ciaco: And he's short. Does that make him a boxer short???
oO0Oo Resident: how does yaku do that!?
Kit Ciaco: HAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Kit Ciaco: oops,.... sorry
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: not really
Alfred Kelberry: beyond hope?
Claire Maskelyne: I'm just very tired and upset right now.
Kit Ciaco: Maybe the container of hope!
Alfred Kelberry: upset? why, claire?
Kit Ciaco: Claire, I really respect something you did tonight
oO0Oo Resident: What might things look like if they were better Claire. May I ask?
Tallin Dezno: and i´m also happy for your participation in this discussion round claire - ty !
Tallin Dezno: even more : giving us so many impulses
oO0Oo Resident: hehe
Alfred Kelberry: what are you chewing, claire? :)
Claire Maskelyne: What did Ido tonight?
Claire Maskelyne: Oh, these are gummi bears.
Tallin Dezno: (and alfi : yes, but beyond hope AND fear - that´s important) ... ;-)
Kit Ciaco: You owned your anger - very clearly, very specifically - it's refreshing
oO0Oo Resident: agreed
Alfred Kelberry: beyond hope there's emptyness, i think
Kit Ciaco: And I think purifying
Alfred Kelberry: cute gammi bears :)
Tallin Dezno: but an emptyness which contains everything alfi i think - like space for example
Claire Maskelyne: If the world looked better, nobody would seek to impose their beliefs on the scientific field. They'd just quietly investigate ideas unrelated to religious or spiritual debate. They'd stop lumping everyone with any kind of non-materliast belief under the label of 'new-agers' and moreover stop villianizing the new age philosophical movement.
Kit Ciaco: Yes - I see your point!
oO0Oo Resident: tyvm
Kit Ciaco: It seems every age has its own brand of "witches"
Tallin Dezno: but i think, one can also be not so material minded without believing. and that is not so easy to attack (!) ... that´s a bit my disposition ...
--BELL--
oO0Oo Resident: imposition, foisting. never felt good to me
Claire Maskelyne: What do all of you believe?
Tallin Dezno: for me, it´s like i tried to express : i tend more to "no belief" - but to say it at the same time : all including love is my guide ...
Kit Ciaco: how much time do we have? LOL!
Korel Laloix: Foisting?
Alfred Kelberry: um, i have to go
Alfred Kelberry: have fun folks
Tallin Dezno: THAT was a short visit - bye alf !
Korel Laloix: I looked it up.. .thanks.
oO0Oo Resident: bye boxy
Korel Laloix: ciao
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye boxy
Tallin Dezno: sam ? do you believe in something ?
oO0Oo Resident: Ok Korel, wasn't sure if you were wanting a def, or explaination
Korel Laloix: I can tell you one thing..... there are a lot of people in my generation that are angry about how science has been pliticized.
Korel Laloix: And we see it..... and want to fix it... but I am nost sure there is a good roadmap on how to do it.
Kit Ciaco: science has always been politicized
Kit Ciaco: so has art and music, I'm afraid
Kit Ciaco: and lit
oO0Oo Resident: One thing I have come to believe, is that it feels worthwhile to learn about anger itself
Korel Laloix: I agree.
Kit Ciaco: most of the disciplines, I think
Yakuzza Lethecus: i got to log out
Korel Laloix: But the impression is it is worse now than ever.... correct or not.
Kit Ciaco: Anger can be a great mobilizer, as long as it doesn't eat your lunch on the way to the mobilizing.
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
oO0Oo Resident: take care yaku
Korel Laloix: A feeling we can't trust scientist like we can't trust politicians.
Korel Laloix: Ciao.
Korel Laloix: It is sad.
Korel Laloix: And makes me worry.
Tallin Dezno: why do you call that "belief" sam ? isn´t it an insight from experience ? if so, i wouldn´t call that "belief" (always in a relative context)
oO0Oo Resident: I also think the journey to trusting oneself is worthwhile and helpful in this regard
Kit Ciaco: I've got to go see a fellow about some fish.
Kit Ciaco: Talk with ya'll later!!!!
Kit Ciaco: Thanks for a great discussion!
oO0Oo Resident: take care Kit
Kit Ciaco: ;)
Qt Core: bye Kit and hi Barca
Tallin Dezno: ty too kit !
Tallin Dezno: and hi barca :-)
Barcalona Rhapsody: hi all
oO0Oo Resident: hi barca
Barcalona Rhapsody: happy new year all
Qt Core: ty and happy new year to you too
Tallin Dezno: ty same same barca
oO0Oo Resident: ty barca
Barcalona Rhapsody: thnx
Korel Laloix: OH.... the Nyquil is starting to hit....
Korel Laloix: Back to sleep.
Korel Laloix: Take care all.
Tallin Dezno: bye korel
oO0Oo Resident: bye Korel
Qt Core: bye Korel
Barcalona Rhapsody: bye kor
Tallin Dezno: oO0Oo Resident: One thing I have come to believe, is that it feels worthwhile to learn about anger itself
Tallin Dezno: Tallin Dezno: why do you call that "belief" sam ? isn´t it an insight from experience ? if so, i wouldn´t call that "belief" (always in a relative context)
Barcalona Rhapsody: nice said
oO0Oo Resident: one thing I notice in myself, is when I am tired, I feel more daunted than say, in the morning when I have rested. It always amazes me how throughout my life this pattern is here with me every day
oO0Oo Resident: yes tallin, perhaps more a discovery than belief
Claire Maskelyne: Perhaps I should get some sleep...
Barcalona Rhapsody: maybe
Barcalona Rhapsody: or perhaps
Tallin Dezno: i´m happy and thankful with all your company here - ty once more for it ! ...
Barcalona Rhapsody: same to me
Barcalona Rhapsody: the pleasure is mine
Claire Maskelyne: Thank you, everyone. :)
oO0Oo Resident: the things you've said Claire come across in many ways, and there is true spirit and longing there
Claire Maskelyne: I'm not great right now, but I feel a little better.
oO0Oo Resident: ty Claire
--BELL--
Tallin Dezno: i felt and feel that your words and thoughts and your being are a real enrichement here claire ... so ty to you from ma side
Claire Maskelyne: Oh, thank you.
oO0Oo Resident: yes
Claire Maskelyne: Good night, everyone.
oO0Oo Resident: nigt clair, rest well
Tallin Dezno: have a nice nite claire - hope to see you again
Qt Core: 'night claire, sleep well
Barcalona Rhapsody: sleep tight
Barcalona Rhapsody: nice dreams
Tallin Dezno: nice when the meetings here long 90 minutes and more ! ... ;-)
oO0Oo Resident: this is a magical/awesome place
Barcalona Rhapsody: timeless feeling
Tallin Dezno: it´s a wonderful place with nice people, nice spirit ...
Barcalona Rhapsody: when u r between brothers and sisters
Tallin Dezno: pema put up a wonderful group ...
oO0Oo Resident: ty Pema
Barcalona Rhapsody: ty pema
Barcalona Rhapsody: and we grow it further
Tallin Dezno: agree :-)
oO0Oo Resident: :)
Barcalona Rhapsody: we foster our group
Barcalona Rhapsody: its ying and yang
Barcalona Rhapsody: strating and fostering
Barcalona Rhapsody: starting
oO0Oo Resident: PaB: foster, not foist
Barcalona Rhapsody: ok
Tallin Dezno: *giggle* yes
oO0Oo Resident: well it's kind of limitless
Barcalona Rhapsody: no limits in time and place
oO0Oo Resident: and maybe that reminds us of our nature, I don't know
Tallin Dezno: but i again and again notice : pema is real inspiring ... whether we find that "good" or not, in my eyes that is a fact ...
Barcalona Rhapsody: sure
Barcalona Rhapsody: but we are the ones that are inspired or let us inspire
Barcalona Rhapsody: because we wanna be inspired
Tallin Dezno: to me the name of the group "play as being" already explains it all in a way.
Barcalona Rhapsody: sure
Barcalona Rhapsody: that is what attraccted me to this group
oO0Oo Resident: subjects and objects dissolve into each other's arms
Barcalona Rhapsody: it was all in the name
Tallin Dezno: and yes barca. i agree again very much : without the group we wouldn´t be a group ! ;-)
Qt Core: time to go, a nice session, bye all
Tallin Dezno: bye qt ! *wave* ... :-)
oO0Oo Resident: Qt, cheers
Barcalona Rhapsody: bye
Barcalona Rhapsody: and gracia a milano