2011.01.25 13:00 - Values, Preferences, and Opinions

The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments are by Bruce Mowbray.

Lugh Fehr: hey riddle
Riddle Sideways: Hi again Lugh and Fox
Fox Monacular: hi Lugh and riddle! I'm just passing on my way to Kira:)
Riddle Sideways: have you been here all this time
Fox Monacular: have a good session!
Riddle Sideways: oh what is at Kira now?
Fox Monacular: dream seminar
Fox Monacular: you're welcome to attend of course
Riddle Sideways: oh I thought that
Riddle Sideways: I want to be at both these
Fox Monacular: :)
Fox Monacular: do you remember which way is the new Kira?
Fox Monacular: i lost my landmark, hehe
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Fox and Riddle and Lugh.
Riddle Sideways: too confusing to send an alt

--BELL--

Riddle Sideways: follow the yellow brick road
Bruce Mowbray: I can give you an LM for the cafe, Fox....
Fox Monacular: thanks, Bruce!
Bruce Mowbray: There you are.
Fox Monacular: thanks!
Lugh Fehr: hey bruce
Bruce Mowbray: yw.
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Lugh. What's happening?
Lugh Fehr: don't know actually :)
Bruce Mowbray: I see you are a connoisseur of reggae.
Bruce Mowbray: A Bob Marley fan, I presume?
Lugh Fehr: yup yup i love it and i love his stuff how about you?
Bruce Mowbray: I love reggae music -- but I'm not very knowledgeable about it.
Lugh Fehr: all I know is that it got a smooth great vibe to it makes you bounce
Bruce Mowbray: oh yeah.
Lugh Fehr: hehehe
Lugh Fehr: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Have you ever been to Jamaica?
Lugh Fehr: nahh not yet , ...you?
Bruce Mowbray: not yet -- but one of my best friends is moving there to live...
Zon Kwan: hi both
Lugh Fehr: hey Zon
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Zon.
Lugh Fehr: yeah nice
Lugh Fehr: ....very nice :)
Lugh Fehr: the beaches the atmosphere
Lugh Fehr: ahh
Bruce Mowbray: the hurricanes. . .
Lugh Fehr: :S
Bruce Mowbray: the winters have to be better than Ohio's, though.
Bruce Mowbray: What's happening with you today, Zon?
Zon Kwan: snow
Zon Kwan: lots of
Bruce Mowbray: yeah, I understand. . . Ours is melting today -- mostly. . .
Bruce Mowbray: while walking my daily 3 miles on the treadmill this afternoon, I listened to Cynthia Kneen's talks on Shambhala warriorship.
Bruce Mowbray: I really like her approach.
Zon Kwan: anything special came to ur mind ?
Lugh Fehr: what's that about , Shambhala warriorship
Lugh Fehr: ?
Bruce Mowbray: The thing that is sticking in my mind right now . .
Bruce Mowbray: is her saying that the biggest obstacle to meditation is ...
Bruce Mowbray: that we have an idea of "meditation."
Zon Kwan: sounds true
Bruce Mowbray: yeah -- It clicked with me. . .
Bruce Mowbray: sry, Lugh. . . didn't mean to ignore your question.
Zon Kwan: all ideas r obstacles
Bruce Mowbray: Shambhala warriorship is part of the Tibetan tradition -- especially that taught by Trungpa. .
Lugh Fehr: hehe dw ohh
Bruce Mowbray: and it is now carried on by his son and also by Pema Chodron and others -- like Cynthia Kneen.
Zon Kwan: hm.. think I'm reading his biography now
Bruce Mowbray: Cool . . .
Wol Euler: evening all 
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Wol.
Lugh Fehr: evening Wol
Zon Kwan: Wol
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Zon - - All ideas - especially ideas of how it is "supposed to be" -- are obstacles to "ordinary mind."

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray:. . .  according to Trungpa and Cynthia, anyway.
Zon Kwan: nods. its just so difficult to be without any ideas
Bruce Mowbray: How about letting the ideas simply be there? . . . like everything else. . .
Lugh Fehr: and sometimes you discover hidden ideas that you noticed the effects of long before
Bruce Mowbray: There is a chair; there is a tree; there is an odor; there is an idea. . . etc....
Bruce Mowbray: Yeah, Lugh. . . pretty amazing stuff, too.
Zon Kwan: yes. and the idea of me 'noting' that
Lugh Fehr: i agree Bruce and as we move the chair around we can move ideas around but we can't destroy them like we can't destroy a chair
Lugh Fehr: but we can turn it into a coaster or something
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: "taking note" -- that's a fine definition of meditation, I think.
Zon Kwan: i heard a nice definition of egotism today
Wol Euler: mmm?
Bruce Mowbray: what was it?
Zon Kwan: it said, the greatest egoism is trying to be without an ego
Lugh Fehr: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Ha!
Zon Kwan: i liked that
Bruce Mowbray: That sort of reminds me of a challenge that I'm facing right now. . .
Wol Euler listens
Bruce Mowbray: I have a VERY "opinionated" friend. . .
Bruce Mowbray: she spontaneously expresses her opinion about just about everything. . . BOOM!
Bruce Mowbray: and some of it is beginning to "get" to me. . .
Zon Kwan: lol
Zon Kwan: just note it and smile
Bruce Mowbray: and I am realizing that my "opinions" about her being opinionated are beginning to "get" to me. . .
Wol Euler smiles and nods
Bruce Mowbray: and my own opinions about her are bothering me a lot more than hers.
Wol Euler: meta-annoyance
Zon Kwan: nods
Lugh Fehr: :) uww brilliant twist
Bruce Mowbray: circular. . . annoyance. . .
Bruce Mowbray: I do not want to be opinionated about folks who are opinionated.
Zon Kwan: yes.. someone said we are only annoyed..
Zon Kwan: by those traits in others
Zon Kwan: that we carry within ourselves
Zon Kwan: otherwise
Zon Kwan: we couldn't notice them
Bruce Mowbray: Yeah, I do think that there's a lot to that. . .
Zon Kwan: a resonance
Zon Kwan: the other is the mirror
Lugh Fehr: you get to see your ugliness up close and uncensored
Bruce Mowbray: yeppers.
Zon Kwan: one should always say thank you to ppl that annoy
Zon Kwan: ty for helping me see myself
Zon Kwan: by being a jerk
Bruce Mowbray: so, in keeping with our talk earlier about "ordinary mind," I'm trying to see my opinions as just a sort of idea floating by -- no resistance. . .
Bruce Mowbray: good point, Zon.
Bruce Mowbray: The 'hang-up' for me (I think. . . .) is that every opinion makes the world smaller. . .
Bruce Mowbray: cuts out some experience -- or some possibility of experience.
Lugh Fehr: the harmful idea i discovered in me this week was i try to take revenge on the world for not being up to my standards -  he hee
Bruce Mowbray: yeah, Lugh. I know that one, too.
Bruce Mowbray: Did you throw something at the world, then, Lugh?
Bruce Mowbray is humming Bob Marley's song, "One World. . . " "Let's get together and feel all right...."
Lugh Fehr: uww I've been throwing all i had for years now -- either I'll be the new Christ and save all the earth, or I'll blow it up or die trying somewhere in between
Lugh Fehr: hehehe bruce
Lugh Fehr: :)
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdB-8eLEW8g
Lugh Fehr: it's somehow similar to the notion of wanting to be special - - similar effects too, but somewhat different

--BELL--

Zon Kwan: ..mm..relaxing music..ty bruce
Lugh Fehr: yeeeey Bob Marley :)
Lugh Fehr: this is something we should do more often when people hear the same song their mind waves will become sync
Wol Euler grins.
Zon Kwan: yes. the power of music
Bruce Mowbray: I agree, Lugh.
Bruce Mowbray: lots better than throwing stuff at each other.
Lugh Fehr: the spiders have spider webs - we have music :)
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhhh!
Bruce Mowbray: Zon mentioned that it is snowing at his place. . .
Lugh Fehr: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzW4vGsVkdM :D
Bruce Mowbray: Have you noticed, Zon (or anyone) how the birds will communicate with each other about a feeder newly filled with sunflower seeds?
Bruce Mowbray: It only takes a couple of minutes for lots of birds to know about it.
Zon Kwan: yes, they have a group mind
Bruce Mowbray: quite a network of communication there, I suspect.
Bruce Mowbray: cool.
Lugh Fehr: yes very interesting
Wol Euler: like watching flocks of birds in flight
Wol Euler: circling around and through each other
Wol Euler: following a path that is established ... how?
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Isn't that amazing -- how they all seem to turn at once...?
Bruce Mowbray: like an enormous wave -- of one mind.
Zon Kwan: there is only one mind. pretending to be many
Wol Euler nods
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. . . .
Lugh Fehr: :D
Bruce Mowbray: the "play" of the one mind - - pretending to be many. . .
Bruce Mowbray: cool.
Wol Euler wonders if the dinosaurs were like that too
Bruce Mowbray wonders if the one mind has 'opinions.'
Zon Kwan: they didn't fly. not all of them
Wol Euler: no, but birds are supposed to be very close to dinosaurs evolutionarily
Zon Kwan: ah yes
Wol Euler: fish do the same, swarming in dense schools
Lugh Fehr: if only we had air fish and air squids
  Blub nods in agreement.
Lugh Fehr: oh we do have an air fish here?  ...:)
Bruce Mowbray just noticed that all of the other fish in the fountain are now gone.
Wol Euler: oh, you're right.
Lugh Fehr: Blub ate them all
Wol Euler: Boxy must have eaten them
Bruce Mowbray: yeah, I think it might have been Boxy.
Bruce Mowbray: Blub's too shy to eat them.
Bruce Mowbray: so. . . I'm wondering ---
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
Bruce Mowbray: is there a difference between 'opinions' and 'preferences'?
Bruce Mowbray: and a difference between' preferences' and 'values'?
Zon Kwan: i think so
Bruce Mowbray: or are 'values' and 'preferences' just another way of having 'opinions'?
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Zon Kwan: opinion seems to be more linked to me
Zon Kwan: preference takes into consideration the environment

--BELL--

Zon Kwan: and that things might change. so it's more open-ended.. i don't get angry if my preference is not met
Lugh Fehr: i think they're basically the same thing but a bit dryer, quieter, resembles a bit more the body than the mind but still more fluidly
Zon Kwan: opinion is fixed
Bruce Mowbray: so -- are you both saying that opinions have more "stuckness" to them than preferences?
Zon Kwan nods
Wol Euler grins
Wol Euler: preference seems more flexible, temporary, conditional
Bruce Mowbray: more "open to the environment" -- I like that.
Lugh Fehr: no, preferences are more stable and slower to change.  opinions are faster to change
Bruce Mowbray: (my opinion, my preference, my value -- is to be more open....)
Zon Kwan: one must have preferences to act meaningfully, but not necessarily opinions
Zon Kwan: preferences arise from values
Lugh Fehr: i think we are all meaning different things by the same words
Zon Kwan: as always
Wol Euler smiles.
Bruce Mowbray: so, values first, then preferences...
Wol Euler: yes, perhaps so. I prefer tea to coffee but that is not an opinion :)
Lugh Fehr: but values are built on preferences
Zon Kwan: i prefer tea only..lol
Bruce Mowbray: so,,,, do opinions involve some form of judgment? --some exclusion of something?
Zon Kwan: i think so
Bruce Mowbray: so. . . preferences first, then values?
Zon Kwan: hm
Zon Kwan: i see it so that values are guiding us
Lugh Fehr: i think preference, then opinion,  then values
Zon Kwan: what we value we go after
Wol Euler: or perhaps not at all. There are many people whose *values* prohibit certain sexual practices, but whose *preference* is to indulge in them
Zon Kwan: so our preferences are built on our values
Wol Euler: excuse the contentious example
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. . . . np, Wol.
Zon Kwan: those r not their real values then
Bruce Mowbray: I have a 'value' of keeping my body healthy, yet I also LOVE single-malt Scotch. . .
Bruce Mowbray: and would drink it if I could afford it....
Wol Euler rejects the suggestion that scotch is unhealthy.
Zon Kwan: value is what we really think important
Lugh Fehr: i don't have values against chocolate ice cream, but i prefer vanilla
Bruce Mowbray: So, "Values" at the top? then preferences, then opinions?
Wol Euler: good example, that is a pure preference with neither opinion nor value to it.
Bruce Mowbray: yeah, good point, Lugh.
Zon Kwan: what i value i do, whether i know it consciously or not
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. . . .
Wol Euler nods.
Bruce Mowbray: "doing" one's values would make for an authentic person....
Lugh Fehr: what is the first to appear in a baby? values, opinions, or preferences?
Bruce Mowbray: I'd say 'preferences' to that one, Lugh.
Lugh Fehr: so the rest are built on that
Zon Kwan: i value staying alive. I want food
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. . .
Wol Euler: I'd agree that an opinion requires conscious thought
Bruce Mowbray: would love to continue this, but must be off to the working group now.
Wol Euler: bye bruce, work well.
Zon Kwan: what group ?
Lugh Fehr: byebye, Bruce enjoy your meeting
Bruce Mowbray: yeah, opinions seem to have some "framing" and abstraction about them. . .
Bruce Mowbray: will need to 'sit' more with this one.
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now.
Bruce Mowbray: and thanks to all of you!
Zon Kwan: bye
Wol Euler: bye Zon, take care
Lugh Fehr: i should be off and do some work too
Wol Euler grins and nods
Wol Euler: goodnight Lugh, work well
Lugh Fehr: byebye Wol byebye larziness
Lugh Fehr: lavieness*

--BELL--

Lugh Fehr: lazieness * damn -  i think its still wrong
Wol Euler: :)
Lugh Fehr: hehee
Wol Euler: laziness :)
Wol Euler: if only one could just say goodbye to it - just like that!