2011.01.01 01:00 - The Nine Seconds

The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera. The comments are by Pema Pera.

Pema Pera: hi Korel!
--BELL--
Pema Pera: (Korel seems to be afk)
Korel Laloix: heya.
Pema Pera: Hi Korel, welcome back :)
Korel Laloix: Sorry.... taking some more drugs.... nasty cold I hame.
Pema Pera: Have you been here before?
Pema Pera: sorry to hear that!
Korel Laloix: Hyquil is wonderful stuff.
Pema Pera: :-)
Korel Laloix: Nyquil even.
Korel Laloix: Was not a festive New Year for me.
Korel Laloix: How about you?
Pema Pera: oh, I had a rather quiet time, here in Kyoto, Japan
Korel Laloix: Oh ... so that was a while ago then?
Korel Laloix: I am crap at timezones.
Pema Pera: yes indeed, it's evening here now, 6 pm, on 1/1
Korel Laloix: Oh OK.
Pema Pera: we're 17 hours ahead of SLT
Korel Laloix: 3 am here in Oklahoma.
Pema Pera: speaking about SL, have you visited us here before, at this pavilion?
Korel Laloix: Oh yes.... just a new AV.
Pema Pera: ah, okay :-)
Pema Pera: hard to keep track of who is who here
Korel Laloix: Freud Jungsten is my proper AV name.

Ah yes, while I had not yet met her new avatar, I was familiar with Freud as a relatively frequent visitor.

Pema Pera: or even whose avatar is whose avatar :-)
Korel Laloix: Freud is starting to act funny sorta like before I lost my previous two AVs... so juststartig agin.
Pema Pera: eternal rejuvination . . . .
Korel Laloix: Trying to keep realy smal this time to help with my Lag.
Korel Laloix: Sort of..
Korel Laloix: Ijoined SL back in 05 to do a paper on cybersex.... lol
Korel Laloix: So was realy not into it.
Korel Laloix: But later I made an AV I put some effort into.
Pema Pera: wow, that's a long time ago!
Pema Pera: how do you view the changes of SL over time?
Korel Laloix: Was not my idea. One of the gradstudents suggested it as an idea.
Korel Laloix: Very very different.
Korel Laloix: Different people.
Korel Laloix: A lot more diversity.
Pema Pera: in what way?
Pema Pera: ah!
Korel Laloix: And it whole system is much more poweful and stable....
Pema Pera: yes
Korel Laloix: So the creativity is realy showing now vs back then.
Korel Laloix: Sl has been great for me.... leaned a lot.
Korel Laloix: learned
Korel Laloix: Met some great people in RL as well.
Korel Laloix: Really had the oportuity to work on my English as well.
Pema Pera: what was most unexpected, of all the things you learned?
Korel Laloix: THinking.
Korel Laloix: I guess maybe self exploration.

A testimony to the richness and potential of Second Life!

Korel Laloix: Let me figure how to explain that.
Korel Laloix: Well... since comming on SL I have figured out I am a lesbian and I have become a Christian.......
Korel Laloix: And SL has introduced me to people that sorta helped me along with both those life paths.
Korel Laloix: Does that make sense?
Pema Pera: that sounds like two big changes!
Korel Laloix: Complicated for sure.... smiles
Pema Pera: and yes, communication in SL naturally can lead to self exploration
Pema Pera: because it is so vivid and much more direct than, say, email, or telephone, or facebook
Korel Laloix: I was on ADHD drugs for a long time and when I came off..... things started changing for sure..... lol
Pema Pera: that must have been hard . . .
Korel Laloix: I have met quite a few people RL from SL as well... mostly for good... some for disasters though....
Korel Laloix: It was... on them from about 11 to 19.. . and went of without a gradual decrease.... so was doubly bad.
Pema Pera: wow . . .
Korel Laloix: HIstory. I survived.
Korel Laloix: Just now not a fan of chemical parenting.
Korel Laloix: But... they do have their legitimate medical uses...
--BELL--
Korel Laloix: Astrophysics?
oO0Oo Resident: hello everyone
Korel Laloix: Physics was a course the my brain hit the delete button on the second I got my grades.... sorry.
Korel Laloix: bozho
Pema Pera: Hi O
Pema Pera: and hi Kit!
Kit Ciaco: Hey!
oO0Oo Resident: this is a friend Kit
Pema Pera: and yes, I'm an astrophysicist
oO0Oo Resident: 1st time here
Pema Pera: welcome, Kit!
Pema Pera: we get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://wiki.playasbeing.org/ -- We record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?
Kit Ciaco: Thanks!
oO0Oo Resident: kit may wish to be off the record, I'm not sure
Kit Ciaco: Oh, heck, I don't mind!
Kit Ciaco: If I'm embarrassed for what I say to be recorded I don't need to be saying it at all!!

I liked Kit already, just from that remark :-)

Pema Pera: thank you -- it sure makes life easier for us, not to have to delete text from the records :)
Pema Pera: Korel, during your previous visits, has there been any discussion about the 9-second breaks, by any chance?
Korel Laloix: Yes.
Korel Laloix: I am just lagged so my comment took a while to show up.
Pema Pera: When we started, almost three years ago, we talked about that a lot, but less so these days -- since many people are familiar with it now
Korel Laloix: BUt I did wait for my follow up.
Kit Ciaco: Ummm - what is a 9 second break?
Korel Laloix: 90 second
Kit Ciaco: 90
Kit Ciaco: ok
Pema Pera: ah, two diferent things :-)
Korel Laloix: Every 15 mins.. just to give folks a break.
Korel Laloix: OH.
Korel Laloix: Not heard this one yet then.
Pema Pera: during our sessions here, we like to stay silent for 90 seconds, indeed every 15 minutes
Pema Pera: just to give everyone a chance to reflect
Pema Pera: and take some deep breaths and look around
Pema Pera: to avoid getting into just one ongoing line of argument
Pema Pera: during those 90 seconds the pond grows misty, there are bells before and after, and also green text showing up in the local chat log
Pema Pera: (even so, many people manage to ignore all of those signs, hahah)
Pema Pera: anyway
Pema Pera: the 9 sec breaks are different
Korel Laloix: Not heard of this yet.

I realized that even frequent visitors to Play as Being may have never heard about our nine-second experiments, so I gave a short introduction, and also made it the title of this session's log.

Pema Pera: the basic idea that we started with, three years ago, was to spend a few hours or more every day in RL taking short breaks, also every 15 minutes, but only 9 seconds
Pema Pera: like mini-meditations
Pema Pera: the idea being that many people think they don't have time to meditate
Pema Pera: but if you take, say, 12 little breaks during three hours every day, it only takes you 12*9 seconds, about two minutes
Pema Pera: about the time it takes to brush your teeth
Pema Pera: so nobody can claim that they don't have the time to do so
Pema Pera: remarkably, most people report that already during the first few days taking such breaks changes their life
Pema Pera: it would be fun if you were to try that, just for two or three days, to see what happens
Pema Pera: (the 90 second breaks are like an extension of that, for here in SL)
Pema Pera: does that make sense, as a summary?
Korel Laloix: It does.
Korel Laloix: wado
oO0Oo Resident: coming to PAB, without even this knowledge has been tremendously meaningful for me, and I am very glad to know more of the background
Kit Ciaco: I'd say yes, but I'm waiting for 90 secs to pass....
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: actually, the "9 seconds" is like a pun: 15 minutes is 900 seconds, so waiting 9 seconds is like paying a 1% time tax . . . .
Kit Ciaco: LOL!
Pema Pera: and here in SL we are silent 10% of the time
Kit Ciaco: well done!
Pema Pera: thanks!
Kit Ciaco: too much talk clouds the mind and the air
Pema Pera: see also http://wiki.playasbeing.org/About_PlayAsBeing/Basic_Ideas
Pema Pera: yes, and just shooting some tiny holes in the dome can clear the air :-)
Pema Pera: (in the dome of our pent-up thinking)
Korel Laloix: Thank you for explaining that.
oO0Oo Resident winks at Kit (shooting)
Korel Laloix: So many idiums in English I don't get.
Pema Pera: such as?
Kit Ciaco: LOL!
Kit Ciaco: at Sam, I mean, not Korel
Korel Laloix: Shoot holes in the dome.. smiles
Pema Pera: oh, that's not an idiom -- I made that up :-)

But I was happy to see my expression elevated to the status of idiom. (^_^)

Korel Laloix: Oh.... lol... sorry.
Pema Pera: and I'm not even native -- I was born in Holland, speaking Dutch :-)
Korel Laloix: Metaphore then?
Pema Pera: I like to shoot holes in languages too, I guess :-)
Pema Pera: yes, metaphors
Pema Pera: hi Yaku!
Korel Laloix: English is not my first language either.. but I think I am very good at it.
Kit Ciaco: hey, Yaku!
oO0Oo Resident: hey yaku!
Korel Laloix: Getting better though.
Pema Pera: what is your first language, Korel?
Yakuzza Lethecus: good morning
Korel Laloix: bozho Yaku
--BELL--
oO0Oo Resident: happy new year (if it is in your ken)
Korel Laloix: Tsalagi
Pema Pera: is that a Native American language?
Korel Laloix: Cherokee essentially.
Kit Ciaco: what does it mean?
Korel Laloix: Was my house lanaguage growning up.
Korel Laloix: English at school.
Pema Pera: nice to grow up bilingual!
Korel Laloix: I guess.... grew up with some Potawatomi as well.
Pema Pera: ah, trilingual, even better :)
Pema Pera: I learned my first few foreign languages starting at 12
Korel Laloix: I am not sure speaking three languages badly can earn you the title trilingual...
Pema Pera: I doubt that you spoke all of them badly!

O then brought up a point that we would stay with for a while.

oO0Oo Resident: communication is largely outside the realm of speaking anyway
Kit Ciaco: true!
Korel Laloix: You should have seen my trhing to pass freshman English.. at a comunity college.... grins... painful.
oO0Oo Resident: IMHO
Pema Pera: that's a very interesting point, O
Pema Pera: I think so too, and yet there is a lot of interplay
Pema Pera: like musicians playing freely in a jam session, but often after having learned to play through using notes on paper
Pema Pera: hi Calvino
oO0Oo Resident: Hi Cal
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey cal
Korel Laloix: bozho
Calvino Rabeni: Hello 0, everyone, happy new year
Kit Ciaco: Hey, Calvino!
Pema Pera: happy new year to you too, Cal, an hour or so ago!
oO0Oo Resident: nice flutes in the fountain
Korel Laloix: Champagne is one drink that I just don't get.
oO0Oo Resident: interplay Pema
Pema Pera: Calvino, we just started talking about communication with and without language
Kit Ciaco: I think I communicate best with my music
Calvino Rabeni: That's a great topic
Korel Laloix: And then there was silence... smiles
Pema Pera: what do you play, Kit?
Kit Ciaco: well, lots of things - badly - but mostly the Native American style flute
Calvino Rabeni: The idea of language has been stretched pretty far hasn't it
Korel Laloix: lol. badly maybe a trend today.
Kit Ciaco: heck, it's my mantra - "badly"
Pema Pera: :-)
oO0Oo Resident: lol Korel
oO0Oo Resident: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Anything worth doing is worth doing badly!

That also could have been a good title for this session :-)

oO0Oo Resident: lolo
Kit Ciaco: exacto!
Korel Laloix: I think the idea of language is much broader than we think sometimes.
Kit Ciaco: I love the notion of deliberate imperfection
Korel Laloix: Becuase in most of the worlds languages, there is a culture stuck to it.
oO0Oo Resident: problem is, you do it badly long enough, it ghas nowhere to go but... good
Korel Laloix: English may not be that way.
Kit Ciaco: I don't know, Korel
oO0Oo Resident listens to Korel
Kit Ciaco: Southernese has alot of culture attached to it
Korel Laloix: They take up a special offereing at church to keep me out of the choir.... so lets just say music is not my strong suit.... grins
Kit Ciaco: LOL!!!!!!
Calvino Rabeni: hehe
oO0Oo Resident: lol
Korel Laloix: And maybe Redneckese as well
Kit Ciaco: same thing
Korel Laloix: I know some folks that would so hate on you for saying that...
oO0Oo Resident: can humour be musical
Calvino Rabeni: That has a lot of local dialects too
Kit Ciaco: You understand, I'm speaking as a Southern redneck, of course
Calvino Rabeni: (redneckese)
oO0Oo Resident: yup
Korel Laloix: lol
Calvino Rabeni: Not just anywhere in the South, I wager
Kit Ciaco: hehehehe
Korel Laloix: And I am somewhere bettern rednceck and reservation trash.
Korel Laloix: So dialects of English have an attached culture?
Calvino Rabeni: I'm partial to East Texas for its sound quality

Alas, we were now approaching the limits of text-based chat; perhaps something for Yaku's Friday afternoon voice sessions?

Korel Laloix: Is that the idea?
oO0Oo Resident: it's always the inbetween places and people who are the most interesting
Kit Ciaco: Well, I am purebred redneck, I'm afraid....
Korel Laloix: Me being the exception.
Kit Ciaco: Yes, Sam, I agree!
Calvino Rabeni: And I've heard a lot of choice phrases
Pema Pera: yes, and in-between often looks like "fringe" from within a particular area
oO0Oo Resident: mmm
Pema Pera: but the fringes are where areas touch
Pema Pera: and so they play a bridging role
oO0Oo Resident: tendril
Kit Ciaco: The fringes are the straps that connect!
Pema Pera: much of popular music has its roots in one fringe or another
Korel Laloix: Great.... I am a translator betten different clans of trailor trash.. I knew I had a place in life.. smiles
Kit Ciaco: LOL!!!!
oO0Oo Resident: we should start a fringe choir
Calvino Rabeni: Most of the great idioms come from the South
Pema Pera: hi Qt!
Kit Ciaco: Yes, we are quite colorful, that's for sure
Qt Core: Hi all!
oO0Oo Resident: hi Qt
Calvino Rabeni: I'm all over that like ugly on an Ape
Kit Ciaco: hey, QT
Yakuzza Lethecus: good morning qt
--BELL--
Kit Ciaco: I'm fine as frog's hair!
Korel Laloix: Not heard the frog hair one.. what does that mean?
Kit Ciaco: I have no idea
Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, this might need redaction in the log ... I'm so hungry I could eat the butt out of a skunk!

This editor saw no reason for censorship here :-)

Kit Ciaco: except that frogs really do have a thin little set of follicles
Calvino Rabeni: I THINK that's self-evident
Kit Ciaco: sorry
Kit Ciaco: I hate saying self evident things.....
oO0Oo Resident: frog's hair. That's scarce as chickens teeth and rocking horse manure
Qt Core: and flying pig
Kit Ciaco: Oh, I loe the flying pig!
Pema Pera: :-)
Calvino Rabeni: I meant the meaning of the skunk metaphor, not what you said about follicles
Kit Ciaco: heheheheh
Calvino Rabeni: that was nicely puzzling
Kit Ciaco: II realized that seconds later.....
oO0Oo Resident: the flying pig is well on its way to concreteness
Kit Ciaco: blushing.....
Kit Ciaco: so is the fuzzy frog
Calvino Rabeni: That's just jim-dandy
Kit Ciaco: concreteness, I mean - not blushing
Korel Laloix: We had a skunk in the yard the other day.. pretty animals really.
oO0Oo Resident: ayup
Korel Laloix: THey don't look freindly though.
Kit Ciaco: And very sweet when they're domesticated!
Calvino Rabeni: but sometimes I'm just dumb as a bucket of rocks
oO0Oo Resident: lol
Korel Laloix: THey say box of rocks here.
Kit Ciaco: Well, I'm so homely my parents beat me with an ugly stick
Calvino Rabeni: heheh
Pema Pera: :-)
oO0Oo Resident: your all in the choir, automatic
Kit Ciaco: LOL!!!!!!
Korel Laloix: wow... they Nyquil just hit.
Calvino Rabeni: yep, I fell out of the ugly tree and hit all the branches on the way down
Kit Ciaco: But the language thing - our words really do tell alot about who we are
Korel Laloix: I am off before I fall asleep on the key board.
Kit Ciaco: the words we select, the way we use them
Korel Laloix: Good night al.. have a great new year.
Qt Core: bye O, sleep well then
Korel Laloix: do na da go hv i
Kit Ciaco: g'night!
Pema Pera: night, Korel!
Calvino Rabeni: Dream mighty
oO0Oo Resident: bye Korel ty
Qt Core: ops, JKorel, not O

Kit and O were on a roll:

oO0Oo Resident: yes Kit the words we select
Kit Ciaco: exactly
Kit Ciaco: And them's that we do NOT select tell alot about us as well
Pema Pera: :)
oO0Oo Resident notes group selecting not to select
Kit Ciaco: LOLLLLLL
Kit Ciaco: What is it that is most important for us to communicate?
Calvino Rabeni: Reading a magazine today ... a cartoon shows Little Socrates at the table with his parents ... sulking... his father is admonishing him -
Calvino Rabeni: Say something profound or don't say anything at all
Calvino Rabeni: One issue with communication is that it tends to be about things that are broken
Kit Ciaco: hmmmmmmmm
Qt Core: that's prove you need god parenting for greatness :-)
oO0Oo Resident: that's profound
Qt Core: good
Pema Pera: so language is corrective, you think, Calvino?
Kit Ciaco: you mean good parenting or god parenting?
Qt Core: the 2nd
Calvino Rabeni: I think the higher mental functions are essentially corrective
Calvino Rabeni: and suppressive
Kit Ciaco: you mean, like ego and super ego?
Kit Ciaco: but not so much id??
oO0Oo Resident: agree good parenting very imporatant, but maybe not totally determinate
Kit Ciaco: I agree, Sam
Kit Ciaco: good parenting gives us a leg up but it is not necessary
Calvino Rabeni: Well we have a layered architecture, the higher layers having evolved later to control, refine, and repurpose the lower
Qt Core: (it was mostly a joke about young socrates strip
Qt Core: )
oO0Oo Resident: get it now Qt
Kit Ciaco: I agree - parenting, whether by adults when we're kids, or by ourselves as older people, is corrective and somewhat restrictive in nature
Kit Ciaco: not bad in and of itself, but can be dangerous when not balanced
Qt Core: i find that my way of communication is mostly suppressive, i feel i block most of what i think to say... that i see especially about humor
Kit Ciaco: what do you mean, Qt?
--BELL--
Qt Core: that 90% of the jokes i think aren't good or appropriate
Calvino Rabeni: I heard one recently
Calvino Rabeni: darn, it's not appropriate
Calvino Rabeni: you're right Qt

Time for me to say goodbye, after the first hour of this session; again the session would continue for well more than another hour!

Pema Pera: time for dinner here, good seeing you all, and till next time!
Kit Ciaco: Humor is one of the most finely tuned human functions
Kit Ciaco: rather complex
Pema Pera: bfn
Calvino Rabeni: TC Pema
Qt Core: bye Pema
oO0Oo Resident: ty Pema
Kit Ciaco: bye
Qt Core: brb
Calvino Rabeni: What seems peculiar to me .. is that for a lot of the very basic human functions there's no well-accepted explanation
Calvino Rabeni: like yawning
Calvino Rabeni: or crying
Calvino Rabeni: or blushing
Kit Ciaco: I wonder - is explanation essential?
Calvino Rabeni: Well, we live without it pretty well
Kit Ciaco: That's what makes humor so basic
Kit Ciaco: like laughter
Kit Ciaco: if we analyzed it it wouldn't be funny at all
Kit Ciaco: I'm speaking as an analyst, understand
Calvino Rabeni: with no definition of humor, it's hard to decide if any animals have it or do things like laugh
Kit Ciaco: Oh, I think many animals have a sense of humor
Kit Ciaco: either that or I'm a very bad influence on mine!
Kit Ciaco: which is a possibility
Calvino Rabeni: but analysis is not for the purposes of appreciating the humor
Calvino Rabeni: things don't work when taken apart
Kit Ciaco: Analysis may be over-rated
Kit Ciaco: I know, I speak as a heathen to the intellect....
Calvino Rabeni: well, analysis is great when coupled with synthesis, then you get a nice reciprocating engine out of it
Kit Ciaco: yes.... I used to live by that code
Calvino Rabeni: values change over time
Kit Ciaco: As I've become older I've made peace with my vast array of ignorance
Kit Ciaco: exactly, Calvin!
Calvino Rabeni: but it's dicey to talk about that
Kit Ciaco: Agreed - some of the most important things to discuss are dicey
Kit Ciaco: Some of the most important things to discuss should never be discussed....
Calvino Rabeni: communicated but not discussed
Kit Ciaco: perhaps
Calvino Rabeni: Stereotypes are crucial but unpopular
Calvino Rabeni: which seems interesting
Kit Ciaco: ?
Calvino Rabeni: because its the opposite of logic
Calvino Rabeni: which is popular but fairly useless
Kit Ciaco: I don't think stereotypes are crucial....
Calvino Rabeni: Stereotypes like, common patterns or archetypes that look at a general trend
Kit Ciaco: Nor logic entirely useless, though I don't use it much personally
Calvino Rabeni: I mean generalities about people as types
Qt Core: they are a way to think less as in din't have to redo long analysis
Kit Ciaco: still - I do like archetypal thinking, but I've never seen it as stereotyping - I must htink on this some more
Calvino Rabeni: But basically any concept is either a stereotype or so specifically focused as to be brittle or inapplicable to much
Kit Ciaco: If we pigeonhole another based, even on archetypes, we miss alot of the stuff of the individual, though
Calvino Rabeni: For example ... the idea that values shift over the lifetime of an individual, or that older people have different values than younger ...
Calvino Rabeni: may be broadly true
Qt Core: it's a statistical thing, you miss a wonderful 1% but you are ok 99% of the times
Calvino Rabeni: Yeah
Kit Ciaco: Yes, but that 1 percent may be just the one percent I most need!
Calvino Rabeni: You can't go around always alert for the 1% exceptions
--BELL--
Kit Ciaco: Well, I am probably out of my league
Qt Core: so instead of spending say 10 thinking power units we use a preconceived idea and spend say 2 but we must spend another 2 to verify that it is really so, still saving 6 units!
Qt Core: greating seat choice, O
Kit Ciaco: LOL! Yes. I am definitely out of my leage.
Kit Ciaco: no good at math
Qt Core: ;)
oO0Oo Resident: sorry I crashed
Yakuzza Lethecus: wb
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think it´s only important to stay thinking about the own perceptions and what we are screening out of our perceptional range
Kit Ciaco: I have no idea what that means
Qt Core: why that remind me about the 9 sec, Yaku ?
Calvino Rabeni: I think he means notice more than what we're focused on
Calvino Rabeni: that is sort of gestalt sounding
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, but also what we leave out
Yakuzza Lethecus: like going to sl, i try to stay around places with more propability for a focused discussion
Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t go to party places even tho of course there is a likelyhood to learn something from partyppl too
Yakuzza Lethecus: but i sacrefice that for me considerered less propable moment of staying connected to a good debate on a party
oO0Oo Resident: in a way, it sounds like you are saying, it is worthwhile to be aware of our preferences, or aversions, and leave room, knowing we are almost always ignoring or oblivious of some things
Calvino Rabeni: I's like to say, focus is not the same as scope, if you know what I mean
Calvino Rabeni: But O's point is important
oO0Oo Resident: if not clearly put
Calvino Rabeni: It's clearly put from my point of view
Qt Core: after all, being mortal beings we mist choose what to focus on, we don't have so much time ;-)
Qt Core: must
oO0Oo Resident: agreed
Qt Core: (what do you feel when you realize you will never be able to read all the wikipedia pages ?)
Kit Ciaco: relieved!
Qt Core: or listen to all the music ever composed
Kit Ciaco: same
oO0Oo Resident: have felt that sort of thing in my life
Calvino Rabeni: I feel jubilant, QT
oO0Oo Resident: there is a surrender quality for me
Qt Core: ok, so i'm the weird one ;-)
Kit Ciaco: When I was young I wanted to know EVERYTHING!
Kit Ciaco: I was relieved to discover today's knowledge is sufficient unto itself
Kit Ciaco: no, not wierd at all!!!
Calvino Rabeni: That's the value change trajectory I was stereotyping earlier
--BELL--
Kit Ciaco: I think our values do shift as we get older!
oO0Oo Resident: people have different capacities for things and ambitions, the texture chajnges with age
Qt Core: i have mixed feeling, sometimes i'm happy to be able to know everything (i can read whichever wikipedia page i want) sometime else i'm sad as i can't read them all
Calvino Rabeni: Well there's also the cost of lost opportunity
Yakuzza Lethecus: for me problems often appear when i have a thought and don´t feel able to communicate a thought into text and find an answer for this kind of issue online or in books
Kit Ciaco: I spent years trying to record in some fashion or another my thoughts
Calvino Rabeni: In fact, over time I found the answers getting less important and the questions more important
Qt Core: yes, having limited time there is the choice problem, which page to read... and then committing it to memory or not ?
Kit Ciaco: which is why I mostly write only instrumental music now
Qt Core: it's better to know the elemet table or all the pokemon names ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: like one of the very childish questiions of mine is still the aspect that i can´t bring in check that i am against any form of communism in the past but i would like to see a kind of ressource egalitarianism
Kit Ciaco: I vote Pokemon
Kit Ciaco: It's more relevant to the masses
Yakuzza Lethecus: whom i vote for pikachu!
Qt Core: but there are masses in the element table ;-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: pika pi
Kit Ciaco: LOL, Qt!!!!!
Kit Ciaco: true!
Calvino Rabeni: An interesting question is - What's the mode of this conversation?
Calvino Rabeni: And another is - to what degree do we think about it
Calvino Rabeni: and / or have an intention to shift it
Kit Ciaco: Wonderful discussion and company
Qt Core: and /or try to demonstrate how cool/knowledgable we are ?
Kit Ciaco: thanks for having me here!
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care kit
Calvino Rabeni: See you again Kit, I hope
Kit Ciaco: I must go check on my horse and then off to bed in a bit
Kit Ciaco: Thanks, guys!
Calvino Rabeni: Sunday 7pm is a good time
Qt Core: np Kit, it was nice to talk to you
oO0Oo Resident: happy new year kit
Yakuzza Lethecus: so what was ur exact mode of the conversation before cal ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: and in which way did you see it shifting ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: and to what extend are conversations are allowed and supposed to shift in order to stay healty and dynamic
Calvino Rabeni: Well, discussions have two common modes around here, speculative abstractions and concrete / impressionistic
Calvino Rabeni: which are both a little different than what you may be seeking
Qt Core: they should shift when (almost) everyone agree on one topic before they become boring
Calvino Rabeni: if you want to have a topical discussion, e.g. of resource egalitarianism
Calvino Rabeni: Or something that's grounded in a specific time / place / community
Yakuzza Lethecus: what are you talking about, what was an example of an issue that appeared in my mind but isn´t solvable
Yakuzza Lethecus: it was not about that subject it was about appearance of thought
Calvino Rabeni: what's the nature of the issue?
Qt Core: wow, just 4 lines and i lost you :-) but i was distracted by impeeding cooking, have to go
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye qt
oO0Oo Resident: bye qt
Qt Core: bye all!
Calvino Rabeni: Bon Apetit Qt
Calvino Rabeni: Suppose the mode is that the conversation isn't very grounded in time / place / social context
Calvino Rabeni: its a logic of generalities
Calvino Rabeni: that's ok, but it's impressionistic, even if it sounds logical
Calvino Rabeni: On the other hand, the mode could be quite grounded
Yakuzza Lethecus: For me i feel discomfort when i have the feeling that i can´t communicate thoughts that appear that is one trigger for being in a state of arousal.
Yakuzza Lethecus: Pab is for me about appearances, awareness and mediation
Yakuzza Lethecus: so appearance of ,,any real thought" can´t be wrongly placed because that is what brings me out of a mediative, aware state
Yakuzza Lethecus: even into confusion if i elaborate on subjects for a while without any ability of solving
Calvino Rabeni: Are you defining confusion as "the state of subjects that are not solved"?
Yakuzza Lethecus: unsolvable not unsolved
Yakuzza Lethecus: without any possible clear feeling that it would be solvable, if they are just unsolved then it´s never confusing then it´s just the next step to go
Calvino Rabeni: hmmm
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey mick
Yakuzza Lethecus: happy new year
Mickorod Renard: hiyaaa,,happy new year
Calvino Rabeni: having a "clear feeling" seems important
oO0Oo Resident: Hi Mick, Thor
Calvino Rabeni: Good evening
Calvino Rabeni: So can you particularize this, Yaku?
Thor Lumet: _/!\_ Namaste
Mickorod Renard: I just wanted to pass by and send my best wishes
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Calvino Rabeni: Thor
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello thor
Mickorod Renard: Hi Thor
oO0Oo Resident: ty Mick
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks Mick :) Same to you and yours
Mickorod Renard: :)
Mickorod Renard: I am having to do stuff in rl so please excuse my ,,distance
Mickorod Renard: :)
oO0Oo Resident: np
Calvino Rabeni: Thor, do you know about the chat log recorder here?
Mickorod Renard: so Cal..what time is it with you now?
Calvino Rabeni: I live in the Second Life time zone
Thor Lumet: no - don't think so - this is my first time here
Calvino Rabeni: thanks
Calvino Rabeni: the sessions chat is recorded and published on the group's web site at http://wiki.playasbeing.org/
Calvino Rabeni: So we need to advise visitors and ask for their consent
oO0Oo Resident: there's mental grounding, and then there is bodily grounding
Thor Lumet: ok - I'm fine with that
Calvino Rabeni: True 0
oO0Oo Resident: sorry ~ timing
Calvino Rabeni: and there's world grounding
oO0Oo Resident: world as in?
Calvino Rabeni: as in matching reality
oO0Oo Resident: I don't follow
Calvino Rabeni: like if I'm talking about a particular person who exists
Calvino Rabeni: that's grounded in the world
Calvino Rabeni: if I'm speculating about people in general, that's not
oO0Oo Resident: i see
Calvino Rabeni: it may be meaningful in other ways
Calvino Rabeni: perhaps by being more a statement about myself than about the world
oO0Oo Resident: Yaku?
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes ?
--BELL--
oO0Oo Resident: find myself wanting to give space for you to express yourself
Yakuzza Lethecus: the tricky thing with confusing elements is that if i could bring them fully to paper in particular then those are already easier so solve and less confusing
Mickorod Renard: wow Yaku, that was complex
Yakuzza Lethecus: but i am not concrete
Calvino Rabeni: How I interpret this Yaku, is that the concept of solving is important to you because you mention more than once, and it seems like a generalized kind of notion
Calvino Rabeni: and in addition it looks like you hope to be less confused
Calvino Rabeni: and that has something to do with solving
Calvino Rabeni: and maybe an implicit idea of the nature of knowledge
Calvino Rabeni: but for now, that's what I "get" from what you've been saying
Yakuzza Lethecus: Yes, i am for example confused when i say that ,,i wanted to study" and spend sufficiant time into it but i failed by the time.
Yakuzza Lethecus: Since i have had no success towards my performance other ppl tell that i was lazy by the time while i fully remember when i was sad and depressed
Mickorod Renard: I have a similar issue, and it does get caught in a loop sometimes. The endless questions that often are absent of answers can cloud the mind
Yakuzza Lethecus: and didn´t even go to any rl party´s and anything in real life
Calvino Rabeni: So I get curious - what are the criteria by which you can actualy discriminate "success" and "failure" or maybe, more on track and less on track with respect to your objectives
Yakuzza Lethecus: still this negative emotions where my focus by that time and i still have a rought time to bring ,,internal vs external perception together"
Yakuzza Lethecus: so my subject is ,,internal vs external perception" in conflicts
Yakuzza Lethecus: less performance let´s other ppl stereoype in the direction of stupidity and lazyness
oO0Oo Resident feels tender heart
Calvino Rabeni smiles at oO0Oo
Yakuzza Lethecus: i did for exampl a job training as a metal worker while having had a concept of wanting to study computerscience
Yakuzza Lethecus: i have experiences that i even had to redo a year at middleschool because of english and german language subjects during my schooltime
Yakuzza Lethecus: and never performed in english betten then 4 -> which is a barely sufficent mark here
Yakuzza Lethecus: while accpeting my stupidity for a while i made the experience that under the right conditions i actually can learn better
Yakuzza Lethecus: and now i am very much confused in ,,what i can do" ,,what i can change"
Mickorod Renard: from my perspective your english is better than mine,,and I am english
Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes I suspect, learning has a trajectory from simple to complex, and then turns around and eventually becomes simple again
Calvino Rabeni: Agreed, Yaku's command of language seems extraordianary
oO0Oo Resident: agreed
Calvino Rabeni: And your spelling quality and typing speed is better than mine
Calvino Rabeni: in my native tongue
oO0Oo Resident: and your value and measure to me is way beyond these kinds of scales
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: yesterday evening for instance, i went to a real life party, i would have stayed in secondlife since i barely knew anyone there but even secondlife is for close relatives ,,just being around the computer" all the time and i can´t brng the issue of ,,internal vs external perception" in check there either
Mickorod Renard: not wishing you to fall into complacency Yaku, but sometimes things happen in life at a certain pace and in a certain way..the control angle can be an obstacle
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello quendrida
Mickorod Renard: Hi Quen
oO0Oo Resident: hi quendrida
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for the conversation everyone...
Calvino Rabeni: I'm called away
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care cal
Mickorod Renard: bye for now Cal
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Mickorod Renard: HNY
Calvino Rabeni: Good meeting you Thor
Thor Lumet: likewise - wont be the last time
Yakuzza Lethecus: good conversation
quendrida Skytower: hello all brb im on the phone sorry
quendrida Skytower: it rang just as i logged in
Mickorod Renard: I think I may have missed some of the discussion Yaku, but I would like to be clear in my understanding of the issue
Yakuzza Lethecus: the issue before as i understood it was when i came to the point of mentioning how thoughts appear which i have a rough time to elaborate upon
Mickorod Renard: ahh I see
Mickorod Renard: well, even I struggle there, it is a frustration for me as I do not command a high academic level even in my native language
Yakuzza Lethecus: i mentioned an example where i thought about ressource agalitarinanism as an example while only wanted to make that as an example of the 1000 things i am talking about all day while being unable to solve and elaborat further
Yakuzza Lethecus: so it wasn´t that clear as an example and i didn´t intend to bring the subject to that subject but of appearing thoughts that create discomfort
Yakuzza Lethecus: well it came over to a ground thing of what i really mean
Mickorod Renard: well, I think that it helps to immerse oneself in appropriate literature and groups that deal with the area's of interest
Mickorod Renard: I too went into philo groups here only to find myself frustrated by the words used
oO0Oo Resident nods
Mickorod Renard: but patience helps
oO0Oo Resident: gentleness toward self if possible
Mickorod Renard: yes
quendrida Skytower: show yourself somw compassion
Mickorod Renard: for sure,
quendrida Skytower: keep a dictionary handy , and i agree lots op patience and compassion
Mickorod Renard: also Yaku, one can learn the definition of a word, but it takes time to understand its full meaning in diferent contexts
Mickorod Renard: these can change in diferent groups and subjects,,even an old timer like me is still a novice
quendrida Skytower: we struggle with philosophy withinn the limits of language
Yakuzza Lethecus: well, it´s not about those ,,big subjects" it´s more about what i need to do in order to mention and communicate issues appearing in my head
Mickorod Renard: maybe they are not ready to be released yet
oO0Oo Resident: or they want respectful space to emerge into
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, but some thoughts are in my head for many years and then i feel i have them ,,habitually unsolved"
oO0Oo Resident: just good listening perhaps
Mickorod Renard: I have some like that too Yaku, from years ago, the fact I still recall them is evidence to me that they are important yet I need to resolve them in my own time
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, here in play as being i often feel that when somebody is sometims talking about a real issue then sometimes issues solve themselves in my head too
oO0Oo Resident: like beer fermenting, or a forest growing, the thoughts are bubbling, and compose themselves in the background over time. Give them room, they will approach you one day with a hearty complete grin.
Mickorod Renard: this thing we talk about in PaB,,dropping,,is quite a good tool for some of these issues
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: very true oOOOo :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: sounds like a natural form of mediation for me sam :)
Mickorod Renard: this is a good platform,,PaB...for preparing a sound ground,,
oO0Oo Resident: :)
Mickorod Renard: what we learn here can often be the tools of expansion
oO0Oo Resident: bubbly anyone?
Mickorod Renard: when you think Yaku,,of those first weeks here on sl
oO0Oo Resident: another name for champaigne (expansion)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think somehow everyone creates his own forms of mediation naturally but when i saw buddists and other mediating ppl in the past i was decieved by the notion that mediation means to ,,sit on the pillow and do an ohm" still 2 years back
Mickorod Renard: he he he
Thor Lumet: I find that writing my thoughts down and go back to read them later provide an answer or one step closer to an answer
Yakuzza Lethecus: pls go on mick, you didn´t finish ur question
Mickorod Renard: well, Yaku,,I was thinking,,as I have known you some time now,,of how we have both developed over this time
Mickorod Renard: and of how positive that developement has been
Mickorod Renard: this is what I mean about it being a tool or basis or grounding,,for the expansion to express our thoughts
Yakuzza Lethecus: thor: yes, sometimes i just feel that i can´t write it properly then i blurryly search in the direction of mindmaps to just flash all thoughts to paper because i can´t bring my thoughts in check
Yakuzza Lethecus: mick: yes i think it is a great development
Yakuzza Lethecus: even tho that i am still a bit unpatient and unfocused i often feel more confident in the engagement with new ppl as well
Mickorod Renard: me too, i was so shy when I first arrived
Mickorod Renard: so unsure of myself
Yakuzza Lethecus: the aspect of dropping is still very hard for me and calvino´s asking into the details is also a good step too
Thor Lumet: think we all beeen there Mick
Mickorod Renard: yes, there is something very useful in the dropping
oO0Oo Resident: indeed
quendrida Skytower: what does dropping mean
quendrida Skytower: or what is 'dropping'
Yakuzza Lethecus: dropping aspects whom are bothering us i´d say
Mickorod Renard: dropping can be described in many ways
oO0Oo Resident: so... not strictly in the 9 or 90 sec drop yaku?
Yakuzza Lethecus: getting rid of little monkeys that are making us confused and unfocuses is a bit more methaphorically
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think the 90 sec are a reminder
Yakuzza Lethecus: but i am still a learner
Mickorod Renard: one such way would be to think of holding onto a crumpled map, all tense and feeling lost,,then if one drops the map and spreads it out, one see's the clarity of where one is
quendrida Skytower: dropping . . . letting go
oO0Oo Resident: gap in cognition
Mickorod Renard: but often we are too conditioned to let things drop,,we are too controlling
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: attachments can be dropped too
Mickorod Renard: oops
Yakuzza Lethecus: i´d see pab as a melting point for ppl with contemplative knowledge where ppl with a general interest are also welcome i am here for 1 1/2 years now and had no knowledge back then to melt while i am influenced by everyone so many newcommers are more experienced then some of the ppl like me whom are in pab for a year
Mickorod Renard: sometimes we are so attached to our possesions that we get all stressed out at the thought of loosing our job,,or whatever, yet if we let go of these attachments, the freedom provides a diferent sort of comfort and clarity
Thor Lumet: soo true
Thor Lumet: mick
oO0Oo Resident: I was first invited here by you Yaku, and I am so very greatful, and just today I invited a guest, and in describing this place, I said to that person all the things you said to me.
oO0Oo Resident: Your spirit spreads in this way
Mickorod Renard: You are very special Yaku, and dont forget your influence in dreams and Wok too
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am usually just around here and just reading
Mickorod Renard: :)
oO0Oo Resident: how wonderful
Yakuzza Lethecus: sometimes i hope for ppl like calvino the question the focus again
Yakuzza Lethecus: because it´s not supposed to be general chat as i often fall into
Yakuzza Lethecus: today was really great
Yakuzza Lethecus: or is :)
Thor Lumet: yes it is
Mickorod Renard: I was suggesting the other day, that perhaps we should dig out the old logs and revisit some of Pema's earlier lessons
oO0Oo Resident: I feel the same
oO0Oo Resident: re: today being great
Mickorod Renard: yes, I have enjoyed it,,but on that note I need to log of for a while
Mickorod Renard: rl demands
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, i also have to go it´s 1 pm
Mickorod Renard: I will see u later,,Happy new year
oO0Oo Resident: that's me too then. best wishes all!
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care everyone, happy new year again