2011.10.22 01:00 - Imaginary and other exemplars

Wol Euler was guardian for this session.

Wol Euler: hello korel
Korel Laloix: heya
Korel Laloix: abit tipsy tonight
Wol Euler grins.

--BELL--

Wol Euler: celebrating?
Korel Laloix: just from a party go tback
Wol Euler: ah :)
Korel Laloix: actually drove so now Having a drink to wind downme
Wol Euler: hello pila
Pila Mulligan: hi wol
Pila Mulligan: hi Korel
Korel Laloix: hey
Pila Mulligan: I hope things are well with you both
Wol Euler: pretty good, thanks
Pila Mulligan: :)
Wol Euler: yourself?
Pila Mulligan: all is well, also, thanks
Korel Laloix: good
Wol Euler: feeling a bit slow and mellow today, sorry for the lack of conversation
Pila Mulligan: hi Bert
Wol Euler: hello bertram
Pila Mulligan: no problem Wol
Bertram Jacobus: hi there pab friends ! :-)
Korel Laloix: a bt drunk feeling smiles
Korel Laloix: bet
Korel Laloix: bet
Korel Laloix: bit
Wol Euler smiles.
Pila Mulligan: how are things with you, Bert?
Bertram Jacobus: pila - what time is it at your place currently ? (!) :-)
Pila Mulligan: 10:08 pm
Pila Mulligan: Friday evening
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Rhi
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. ty. better, very much better. after years of many heavy circumstances, at the moment, things have got much better. but i still fear that it could change into worse again - so lets see ...
Wol Euler: hello rhi
Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Pila
Rhiannon Dragoone: Hello Wol
Wol Euler nods to bertram
Pila Mulligan: well, I'm happy to hear the cycle is on the upside for onw, Bert
Wol Euler: I'm glad that things are going well
Wol Euler: as for the future *shrugs*
Bertram Jacobus: ty all - and hi rhia :-)
Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Bert
Bertram Jacobus: so you are 12 hours back in relation to the time here pila - it that in hawaii ?
Pila Mulligan: yes, the oposite side of the planet :)
Bertram Jacobus: wow
Pila Mulligan: small world :)
Bertram Jacobus: i didn't know that ! i thought, it was australia - the other side of the planet . and hawaii part of the us and so around 6-8 hours "behind us" ...
Wol Euler smiles.
Pila Mulligan: yes, the eastern US is six hours later
Wol Euler: maps give a strange impression of the world
Bertram Jacobus: sometimes, obviously !
Bertram Jacobus is astonished ...
Bertram Jacobus: sometimes one believes one would know things about the world ... and then a correction of such aspects happens ...
Pila Mulligan: :)
Rhiannon Dragoone: I figure that I know the world--until the world let's me know differently. lol
Wol Euler: yep :)
Bertram Jacobus: sometimes i like to say and think then, it's a fault in the matrix. like told in that movie. may be you know it (?) -
Bertram Jacobus: ;-)
Pila Mulligan: yep
Wol Euler: heheh
Pila Mulligan: bye Korel
Rhiannon Dragoone: The Matrix? That's the one where everyone is in a virtual world? Could never happen...
Rhiannon Dragoone: bye Korel
Wol Euler: bye!

--BELL--

Pila Mulligan: is the matrix a modern Cave?
Bertram Jacobus: no. it's only delusion which we take for real - that is the story in that movie so far as i understood it -
Pila Mulligan: allegorical
Bertram Jacobus: it's like a former story - i don't know the name in englisch - german welt am draht - where the plot is that someone figures out, that we all are part of a computer simulation to explore and test advertisement campaigns - and i found it so interesting that that could be real (!) ...
Wol Euler grins.
Rhiannon Dragoone: There's a story in English--maybe the same one--where that happens; the hero is helping to run a computer simulation about public policy changes; finds out that his world (ours) is really a computer simulation to do the same. Of course, he falls in live with his female counterpart.
Rhiannon Dragoone: i pity her, if she has to fall in love with a computer simulation.
Bertram Jacobus: at least very similar
Rhiannon Dragoone: Yeah, public policies, though, not ad campaigns.
Rhiannon Dragoone: What would happen if we banned cigarettes, for instance
Wol Euler: but is she not *also* a simulation?
Rhiannon Dragoone: Wol, I think they imply that at the end.
Bertram Jacobus: and some principles are same in those stories. even i would like to say the important ones
Rhiannon Dragoone: An endless hierarchy of simulations
Wol Euler: so ... why pity her? like meets like, and live happily forever after until the system reboots
Bertram Jacobus: :-)
Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, if she is just as illusory as he is; but what if she's real and he isn't?
Wol Euler: but that was my question
Pila Mulligan: ahh, the many quirks of being
Bertram Jacobus: :-))
Pila Mulligan: 'you're made of pixels and I'm all corpuscles ..."
Bertram Jacobus giggles
Rhiannon Dragoone: For some reason, this reminds me of Nathaniel Branden's take off on Faulkner--at the level of self esteem, it is *always* 3:00 AM in the morning.
Rhiannon Dragoone: heh, Pila. I think there was a movie like that too, where the guy falls in love with a cartoon--only she comes to live in his world
Pila Mulligan: makes one wonder what is real :)
Bertram Jacobus: everything
Pila Mulligan: probably, Bert
Bertram Jacobus: or would you consider nothing as well pila ?
Wol Euler: there was a film with Tom Hanks and (I think) Darryl Hannah, many years ago when they were really young, where she is a mermaid who becomes human to be with him
Wol Euler: "real" is in your head anyway :)
Pila Mulligan: more everything than nothing, for me, Bert :)
Pila Mulligan: ahh, I rememebr thta move
Bertram Jacobus: meerjungfrauen küssen besser ? i think, that may have been the german title (again) wol (?) ;-)
Wol Euler: probably, taht sounds right
Wol Euler: she saves him, twice
Bertram Jacobus: same here pila - but why did you, then, comment "probably" pila ? :-)
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. sounds nice. i don't remember it very well. saw it long time ago. but my bad memory ... bah ;-)
Rhiannon Dragoone: In the worlds of Mork, "Reality--what a concept."
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: Bert, my sense of everything is real is close Heinlein, to the sceince fiction writer
Pila Mulligan: every story is in fact a reality
Pila Mulligan: however, some things may be more unuversally accepted as real
Pila Mulligan: so that factor removes the absolute from my view, resulting in 'probably' :)
Bertram Jacobus: hmmm
Wol Euler: boxy!
Bertram Jacobus: hey alf ! :-)
Alfred Kelberry: woly girl! :)
Rhiannon Dragoone: Pila--a combination of solipsism and pantheism? That's Heinlein
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Alf
Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi boxy!
Pila Mulligan: could be Rhi -- I'm weak on the acadmeic side :)
Alfred Kelberry: it looks like a european hour :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Bertram Jacobus: righty right - but also hawaiian :-)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Rhiannon Dragoone: nite, nite
Wol Euler: and american :)

--BELL--

Pila Mulligan: an academic anemic
Wol Euler: goodnight, rhi, sleep well
Pila Mulligan: bye Rhi
Pila Mulligan: or are you refrring to the time?
Alfred Kelberry: pila, you're in fact an exemplar of an academic for me :)
Pila Mulligan: boxy, you're too kind
Wol Euler chuckles.
Alfred Kelberry: and rhia is an imaginary exemplar :)
Pila Mulligan: ?
Alfred Kelberry: um...
Bertram Jacobus: pila - you said (wrote) close to heinlein. what are the differences in your and his sight of the world ?
Alfred Kelberry: wait, where is the grass?
Rhiannon Dragoone: i'm an imaginary exemplar?
Wol Euler: mowed, gone
Wol Euler: all things pass
Wol Euler: metaphor made (virtual) flesh
Bertram Jacobus: but the whole seems to last
Rhiannon Dragoone waves and poofs
Bertram Jacobus: byeee rhia
Alfred Kelberry: rhia, yes. it's rare to see this appearance in academia :)
Pila Mulligan: bye Rhi
Alfred Kelberry: yet we can all imagine :)
Alfred Kelberry: ...living life in peace
Bertram Jacobus: a very nice song of john lennon ... ;-)
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Bertram Jacobus: imagine
Wol Euler smiles.
Pila Mulligan: Bert, I liked his stories very much ... but I think his veiws were pretty conservative politically
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. same associations. or similar at least. very similar :-)
Bertram Jacobus: ah ! okay. ty pila
Alfred Kelberry: i can attest to each line from that song
Bertram Jacobus: he was a genius
Alfred Kelberry: pila, what were his views?
Bertram Jacobus: shot, like so many idealists
Wol Euler nods.
Alfred Kelberry: bit chilly today, woly? :)
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_...nlein#Politics
Wol Euler: no, why?
Alfred Kelberry: i see you're wearing a jacket :)
Wol Euler: heheh
Wol Euler: well, somebody remarked on my having worn the same outfit for a week
Wol Euler: we can't have that!
Alfred Kelberry: ah...
Bertram Jacobus giggles
Alfred Kelberry: so he's a royalist
Pila Mulligan: :)
Alfred Kelberry: or came to be one
Alfred Kelberry: except he trusted power with military and not kings
Pila Mulligan: but regardless, he sure told a nice story
Wol Euler nods.
Alfred Kelberry: um... i guess
Wol Euler: I find the idea of judging a writer, especially one long dead, by anyhting other than his words to be really dubious
Pila Mulligan: :)
Wol Euler: we have the idea that artists should -- must -- be perfect people because they produce perfect works
Alfred Kelberry: how about judging a non-writer?
Wol Euler: but they were just the same conflicted uncertain often-unhappy arseholes that we are
Alfred Kelberry: no, woly. no preconception here. just analysis.
Bertram Jacobus: i don't think, that everybody thinks in that way about artists
Alfred Kelberry: classification, if you will
Wol Euler smiles, not talking about us specifically
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry: but adgree that a higher expectation from writers is not without a reason
Alfred Kelberry: they have a gift of forming thoughts in words and share them
Wol Euler: agreed :)

--BELL--

Alfred Kelberry: purr :)
Pila Mulligan: Ram Dass once said therapy is only as high as the therapist -- that may also be true of story tellers -- more uplifting tales result from some form of inspiration -- but, that said, I was not so much uplifted by Heinlein's stories as entertained by them
Bertram Jacobus: i once saw a discussion round of very high decorated people , professors, doctors and similar in tv - they were scientists from some universities and spoke about religion. and they stated so very much certain axioms that i really was very astonished : how could those people state such uncertain things and then buid up their vies and convictions on them ? they very harda nd heavy struggeld about their topic then and from that time on - it was a key experience for me - i knwe and know : nobody is save from being totally wrong ...
Pila Mulligan: :)
Wol Euler nods.
Alfred Kelberry: pila, what authors (stories) did uplift you?
Pila Mulligan: Shakespear ... Plato ... Buddha .... :)
Bertram Jacobus: ha ! wow ... *smile* ...
Alfred Kelberry: aha :)
Bertram Jacobus: laotse ?
Pila Mulligan: ah, yes :)
Bertram Jacobus: he's special, isn't he ?
Wol Euler: Laurence Durrell, John Fowles, Hermann Hesse, Günter Grass
Bertram Jacobus laughs happily :-)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: remnds me of the marathon PaB session about favorite songs, of a couple of years ago
Wol Euler smiles.
Pila Mulligan: people went on for hours :)
Bertram Jacobus: uuhh - günther grass - i once met one of his sons - and both are too snobbish for me - sry - bad karma now i generated - how could i handle that better ?!
Wol Euler: I remember, that was a good day
Alfred Kelberry: berty, high credentials merely increase a probablity of the right answer, but does not guarantee it :)
Wol Euler nods.
Alfred Kelberry: pila, i missed that one :/
Wol Euler points to her previous remark about artists being just like us
Pila Mulligan: isn't contention part of the scheme of academia
Alfred Kelberry: um... i missed that too :/
Wol Euler hands boxy a cup of coffee to get his mind in gear
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry: i'm having tea with a cake
Wol Euler: ah :)
Bertram Jacobus: sure it is. why do you write that pila ? what do you want to express with it pls ?
Wol Euler: too early for cake for me
Alfred Kelberry: heh, how is it too early for a cake? :)
Bertram Jacobus giggles
Wol Euler: it#s a tricky concept, I admit
Bertram Jacobus: lol
Bertram Jacobus feels love ...
Pila Mulligan: Bert, I would tend to expect a discussion round of decorated people to be a bit non-decorous in comparing axioms
Wol Euler smiles.
Alfred Kelberry: btw, i've found this neat image app from autodesk with various effects. pretty cool.
Wol Euler chuckles.
Alfred Kelberry: there: http://up.keep.se/boxy.jpg
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Bertram Jacobus: but when optional chossed axioms - and how should that be possible in an other way then optional - are presented and defended very harsh as truth - then i'm astoished ...
Wol Euler nods to Pila. That is exactly what annoys and discourages me about "discussion rounds" - the lack of basic politeness and dignity
Pila Mulligan: yes yes
Wol Euler: "I am totally right and you are totally wrong, and if you disagree then you are a liar or an idiot"
Pila Mulligan: boxy, who is that handsome fellow?
Alfred Kelberry: me :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Wol Euler: !
Alfred Kelberry: ha! :)
Wol Euler: interesting :)
Alfred Kelberry: discussion rounds, yes...
Bertram Jacobus smiles @ boxy although not understanding everything ... (but that is ok to me - i learned to live with it) ... may be here also a bit ? ... :-)
Bertram Jacobus: exactly so wol
Wol Euler: I stopped going to discussion groups here because of that *cough* Gilles *cough*
Bertram Jacobus: gilles ?
Alfred Kelberry: oh, i quite enjoyed gilles presence
Bertram Jacobus giggles
Bertram Jacobus: in the discussion rounds with rhi ?
Wol Euler: yes, and elsewhere
Alfred Kelberry: this is what made me embark on the pheno mission
Bertram Jacobus: i see. they are too complicated for me. so i'm protected from that (?) ;-)
Wol Euler smiles.
Pila Mulligan: boxy, Fox has also started stuying pheno as part of her higher education
Pila Mulligan: studying*
Pila Mulligan: it seems to capture a lot of interest
Bertram Jacobus: what is pheno / pheno mission pls ?

--BELL--

Pila Mulligan: phenomenology
Wol Euler: phenomenology, Husserl
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenome...8philosophy%29
Bertram Jacobus: ah. ty pila and wol
Wol Euler: yw
Bertram Jacobus: :-9
Bertram Jacobus: :-)
Alfred Kelberry: ^^
Bertram Jacobus giggles
Pila Mulligan: I'm going to slip over to the Sceince Circle meeting on 'popular perceptionof sciense' -- noce to see you Wol, Bert and boxy, be well :)
Wol Euler: bye pila, enjoy the weekend
Alfred Kelberry: ah, it's a nice one.
Alfred Kelberry: i think i'll join you, pila
Bertram Jacobus: okay - bye pila . ty for having been here ! :-)
Alfred Kelberry: woly, berty?
Pila Mulligan: thanks
Wol Euler: not for me, I have shopping to do and some errands to run
Wol Euler: but thanks for the invite
Bertram Jacobus: not for me ty vm boxy ! :-)
Alfred Kelberry: shopping? again?! :)
Wol Euler: RL shopping, food
Alfred Kelberry: ah yes, food
Wol Euler: heheheh
Alfred Kelberry: get a cake too :)
Wol Euler: yep
Alfred Kelberry: and marzipan
Wol Euler: mmmmmmmm
Bertram Jacobus giggles
Wol Euler: Mozartkugeln
Alfred Kelberry: huh?
Wol Euler: ah!
Wol Euler: chocolate coated marzipan balls
Bertram Jacobus: lübecker :o)
Alfred Kelberry: ahhh
Wol Euler: http://www.mozartkugel.at/mozartkugel/page?PagecRef=1
Alfred Kelberry: marzipan is a fondness that i aquired in germany
Wol Euler: O.O
Wol Euler: omg
Alfred Kelberry: oh yes, those
Wol Euler: mozartkugeln are available in "display boxes" of 100!
Wol Euler fans herself
Alfred Kelberry: haha
Bertram Jacobus: lol
Wol Euler: be still my beating heart
Bertram Jacobus: i'll leave - bye friends
Wol Euler: bye berti, enjoy the weekend
Alfred Kelberry: um, it's so surreal not being able to understand the words
Wol Euler: heheheh
Wol Euler: there is an english page, I saw the link too late
Alfred Kelberry: once in a while you find out that there are other languages on the web
Wol Euler nods.
Alfred Kelberry: and it almost comes as a shock :)
Wol Euler: true
Alfred Kelberry: grrr. must. learn. german.
Wol Euler: hehehehehh
Wol Euler: it's easy
Wol Euler: for certain values of "easy"
Alfred Kelberry: i don't like the long concat words
Wol Euler: well :)
Wol Euler: would you be happier if they were condogenated?
Wol Euler watches you struggle with that concept, and giggles
Alfred Kelberry: Hintergrundbild
Alfred Kelberry: :/
Wol Euler: what's odd about that? :)
Alfred Kelberry: it's rather complex as it is
Alfred Kelberry: oh, rezept. that i know.
Wol Euler: Torschlüsspanik
Alfred Kelberry: do you read in german a lot?
Wol Euler: yep
Wol Euler: about 50/50 with english
Alfred Kelberry: so you immerse yourself into the culture?
Wol Euler: maybe slightly more english, depends on what I happen to have on hand
Wol Euler: oh yes
Alfred Kelberry: cool. my approach :)
Wol Euler: best way IMHO
Alfred Kelberry: yep
Wol Euler: I try to read things in the original language, if possible
Alfred Kelberry: i try to speak the local language when i travel
Wol Euler: of course :)
Alfred Kelberry: oh! the meeting
Wol Euler: heheh
Wol Euler: run!
Alfred Kelberry: come on, you still have a few minutes :)
Wol Euler: what is it about?
Alfred Kelberry: they will appreciate your hooves :)
Wol Euler: ok, convinced
Wol Euler: tp me
Alfred Kelberry: um... perception of science by the masses
Alfred Kelberry: ok, stay put