2008.12.06 01:00 - The Forests of our mind

The Guardian for this meeting was Fael Illyar. The comments are Fael's.

I had arrived first and set the pavilion into less seats mode since I tend to prefer sitting in a closer circle, especially when my meetings tend to be small.

Fael Illyar: Hi Crusty :)
Crusty Goldshark: hi fael
Fael Illyar: So, how is it going?
Crusty Goldshark: fine - why less seats?
Fael Illyar: well, it's easy to switch :)
Fael Illyar: plus I'm surprised if these get half full today :)
Fael Illyar: better?
Crusty Goldshark: better
Fael Illyar: there are commands to change the looks here :)
Crusty Goldshark: ow
Crusty Goldshark: how?
Fael Illyar: type /9help for a list
Crusty Goldshark: thanks
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Fael Illyar: the suggested etiquette concerning these is to let the guardian decide :)
Crusty Goldshark: fine with me :0
Fael Illyar smiles.
Fael Illyar: I find this seating style more suited for a small meeting, which is what my meetings tend to be :)
Crusty Goldshark: :)

Seating arrangement discussion over, I move to talking about ... what to talk about :)

Fael Illyar: So, ... what to talk about?
Faenik: ah :)
Faenik: could be
Fael Illyar: There's this recent thought I had that I'd be interested in input on. It's that we end up having limits we don't know about because, at some point we had to but didn't like it but couldn't take the luxury of slowly getting used to them, so we hid them from ourselves.
Fael Illyar: one monster of a sentence :)
Crusty Goldshark: Wellwe have anyforms of limitation . . .
Crusty Goldshark: Far more important is capacity . . .
Crusty Goldshark: How do we make full use of our capacity and release more of them . . .
Fael Illyar: Of course, what I just tried to define is something that tends to make a severe difficulties in using the capacity.
Crusty Goldshark: example

Crusty wants an example ... unfortunately, I didn't have one ready having just had a revelation of noticing a recent limit I'd placed on myself and how it felt like a chain going taut and stopping me, realizing that I didn't entirely like it and then realized I was kind of wishing to forget it existed. Which led to me to realize how we can place limits on ourselves that we then pretend aren't there.

Faenik: could be
Fael Illyar: or perhaps not actually in using the capacity. Just in seeing that we're infact doing so.
Crusty Goldshark: Well I find focussing on what we are unawre of is often futile. More useful is increacing our awareness so it includes what it can
Fael Illyar: Of course :)
Crusty Goldshark: I am tryinging to understand what you mean - are you talking of specific block and how to release them?
Fael Illyar: specific type of block
Fael Illyar: for example, identifying with some idea might be an example of how it could appear.
Fael Illyar: such that when the idea is criticized, the person takes it like they themselves are being criticized.
Fael Illyar: but that's one of the lighter forms I think
Crusty Goldshark: OK - then that is association. We tend to have ideas of self -of who we are what we are and so - ah OK that makes more sense
Crusty Goldshark: We do all identify with how we present even though we are not our form or even our ideas
Fael Illyar: phobia might be another ... especially in cases when the person has no idea why they're afraid.

My attempts at explaining it didn't quite hit the mark but it did spring up an interesting discussion nevertheless.

Crusty Goldshark: Well one thing - an add on to add on is how we deny or fight our phobias - or deny our ideas when we feel they are threatened or criticised . . .
Crusty Goldshark: So I think we have to accept our painful bits
Crusty Goldshark: I AM my ideas - I AM my phobias etc
Crusty Goldshark: So I am not perfect - so sue me . . .
Crusty Goldshark: ;)
Fael Illyar: ah, yes, but there's this forest for the trees thing there :)
Fael Illyar: we're not just one idea :)
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Fael Illyar: while people tend to react like the whole of them is being criticized.
Crusty Goldshark: No we are composite but we must both accept or own the forest and also know that trees can be felled or ggrown nurtured just left etc - But the forest exists
Fael Illyar: Yes, it does :)
Fael Illyar: and we can do some "gardening" there.
Crusty Goldshark: So I wonder if the forest is owned or denied?
Fael Illyar: owned or denied?
Fael Illyar kind of just thought it just is.
Crusty Goldshark: Well I feel before knowing what to grow you have to know what the forest is. Is it yours? Can it be owned ? Does it need to be pruned? Does it even exist outside of some fantasy construct we try to think of as 'self'?
Fael Illyar: Yes, of course :)
Crusty Goldshark: What if there is no forest?
Crusty Goldshark: No trees either.
Faenik: ah :)
Crusty Goldshark: Then we are closer to just is.
Crusty Goldshark: So what needs to be done?
Fael Illyar: That's the key to PaB I think. letting the forest not be for a few seconds.
Crusty Goldshark: OK - which isreal? The 9 seconds or the forest?

Then Crusty gives me a question that doesn't make any sense.

Crusty Goldshark: Is real not the country
Fael Illyar: what is real?
Fael Illyar: what does "real" mean?
Crusty Goldshark: For me it does not have a meaning
Crusty Goldshark: If you define it is not real
Fael Illyar: Yes, your question puzzled me :)
Crusty Goldshark: Perhaps I should say which do you prefer?

Here we get a new visitor, Soleil8 Andel and Moon also arrives but remains quite silent.

Fael Illyar: Hello Soleile8
Crusty Goldshark: Hi :)
Fael Illyar: Hi Moon :)
Soleil8 Andel: hello
Soleil8's translator: hello
Fael Illyar: Do I have to prefer?
Crusty Goldshark: Hi Moon
Crusty Goldshark: You don't have to . I was wondering if you did?
Fael Illyar: not that I know of.
Crusty Goldshark: I prefer the absence of forests in this context - I have a preference.
Faenik loves wells!
Soleil8 Andel: bonne energie ici
Soleil8's translator: good energy here
Fael Illyar: The forest easily comes back, even when let go of ... so it's kind of difficult to say if it can be said to be ansent, really.
Fael Illyar: Soleil, you do not speak English?

I was intending to introduce him through IMs but since communication has to be through his translator (I don't speak frenc), it had to be through chat.

Soleil8 Andel: oui
Soleil8's translator: yes
Soleil8 Andel: excusez moi
Soleil8's translator: excuse me
Crusty Goldshark: I find the absence to be closer to a relity I prefer
Soleil8 Andel: mon anglais est limite
Soleil8's translator: my English is limited
Soleil8 Andel: mais je comprend avec mon translator
Soleil8's translator: but I understand with my translator
Fael Illyar: Yes, this is a meeting of our group, Play as Being.
Soleil8 Andel: ok
Soleil8's translator: ok
Soleil8 Andel: je suis déja venu
Soleil8's translator: I am already come
Soleil8 Andel: ici
Fael Illyar: It's a group of people who are trying out a new kind of meditation. pause 9 seconds every 15 minutes.
Soleil8's translator: here
Soleil8 Andel: ok
Soleil8's translator: ok
Soleil8 Andel: cool
Soleil8's translator: cool
Soleil8 Andel: c'est interressant
Soleil8's translator: is interesting
Soleil8 Andel: pour maintenir un bon feeling entre les êtres
Soleil8's translator: to maintain a good feeling between human beings
Fael Illyar: We also record these meetings and post them on our website. Is it ok to include what you say as well?
Soleil8 Andel: je travail avec des amis
Soleil8's translator: I work with friends
Soleil8 Andel: oui
Soleil8's translator: yes
Soleil8 Andel: bien sur
Soleil8's translator: well
Soleil8 Andel: a faire un site virtuel
Soleil8's translator: has a virtual site
Fael Illyar: http://playasbeing.wik.is/ is our website, although it's all in English.
Soleil8 Andel: pour ce rencontrer et mediter aussi
Soleil8's translator: for this meet and also mediter
Soleil8 Andel: cool merci
Soleil8's translator: cool thank you
Faenik: why not?
Soleil8 Andel: j'ai beaucoup d'amis qui travail la méditation
Soleil8's translator: I have many friends who work meditation
Soleil8 Andel: je vais les invités a voir votre site
Soleil8's translator: I will invited to see your site
Soleil8 Andel: ok
Soleil8's translator: ok
Fael Illyar: Thank you :)
Soleil8 Andel: ils sont très interessants
Soleil8's translator: they are very interesting
Soleil8 Andel: beaucoup d'artistes et des créateurs
Soleil8's translator: many artists and creators
Soleil8 Andel: je travail la 3D
Soleil8's translator: I work 3D
Fael Illyar smiles.
Soleil8 Andel: et l'audio visuel
Soleil8's translator: and audio visual
Soleil8 Andel: hi
Soleil8's translator: hi
Soleil8 Andel: cool
Soleil8's translator: cool
Fael Illyar: I mostly script but have been trying out building things too.
Soleil8 Andel: j'aime rencontré des personnes qui ce rencontres pour parler de choses essentiels
Soleil8's translator: I met people that this meeting to talk about basic things
Fael Illyar: this meeting?
Soleil8 Andel: oui
Soleil8's translator: yes
Crusty Goldshark: What basic things?
Soleil8 Andel: et méditer ensemble
Soleil8's translator: and meditate together
Faenik loves wells!
Fael Illyar: we talk about basic things sometimes but also difficult things.
Soleil8 Andel: oui c'est aussi des choses importantes
Soleil8's translator: yes it is also important things
Fael Illyar: 9 seconds is a bit short time for meditating together, although we do tend to do that. There's a bell ringing every 15 minutes to remind us.
Soleil8 Andel: ok
Soleil8's translator: ok
Fael Illyar: these meetings are mostly for discussing what we find while doing the meditations
Soleil8 Andel: oui
Soleil8's translator: yes
Soleil8 Andel: super
Soleil8's translator: great
Soleil8 Andel: je fais de la meditation depuis mon enfance
Soleil8's translator: I do the meditation since my childhood
Fael Illyar: we meet 4 times every day. 1am,7am,1pm and 7pm SL Time.
Soleil8 Andel: je suis vegetarien
Soleil8's translator: I am a vegetarian
Soleil8 Andel: et etudis le tantrisme
Soleil8's translator: and studied Tantra
Soleil8 Andel: ok
Soleil8's translator: ok
Soleil8 Andel: j'ai enregistré
Soleil8's translator: I recorded
Fael Illyar: Tantra I'm not familiar with, what is it?
Faenik: why not?
Soleil8 Andel: excuse
Soleil8's translator: excuse
Soleil8 Andel: j'ai beugué
Soleil8's translator: I beugué
Fael Illyar: welcome back.
Soleil8 Andel: heureux d'avoir fais votre connaissance
Soleil8's translator: happy to have you do
Soleil8 Andel: je dois partir
Soleil8's translator: I gotta go
Soleil8 Andel: a bientôt
Soleil8's translator: soon
Crusty Goldshark: auvoir
Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later perhaps :)
Faenik: indeed?

Need for introductions gone, I return to the subject.

Fael Illyar: But about the forest (well, self) we were talking about, it's there and will stay, it can be modified to realize what it is though.
Fael Illyar: to be transparent like Pema would say.
Crusty Goldshark: Well in tantra (i don't know if any ofthat came through) I lost it . . . youwould use the trees as a means to deal with the forest

Seems to me now that Crusty doesn't consider whatever he has to be forest. Even though, to me, being able to speak requires one.

Fael Illyar: means?
Fael Illyar: didn't see anythjing about Tantra here
Fael Illyar: although I did lookup wikipedia for it
Faenik: could be
Crusty Goldshark: Wellmost paths view the phobias and fears we mentioned earlier as obstacles - in tntra the obstacles are used as the verymeans to clearance . . .
Fael Illyar: sounds like a good idea, if you can use them :)
Crusty Goldshark: So we might use one tree to burn down the whole forest thereby being able to see the forest for the trees - wot no forest?
Crusty Goldshark: Another method might be to represent the fears and phobias as deities and worship them - after all they have power over us
Crusty Goldshark: In this way we become familar with the obstacles and their true nature
Fael Illyar: what does it mean to treat phobias and fears as obstacles in most paths?
Crusty Goldshark: What part of this is unclear?
Fael Illyar: does it simply mean you try to leave them there but go around?
Crusty Goldshark: Not necessarily - you might have to deal with them to make progress - In tantra they are seen not as impediments but as means
Crusty Goldshark: A lot of paths do ignore the negatives - in Tantra the negatives are seen as something to embrace as a skilful possibility
Faenik: could be
Crusty Goldshark: To take another path for example Sufism, the negatives are not the area of awareness, rather you just focus on the development of good or finer qualities such as love and compassion
Fael Illyar: Ok, I think I understand that now.
Crusty Goldshark: :)
Crusty Goldshark: I will try and understand it too :)
Fael Illyar doesn't really know much about different traditions.
Crusty Goldshark: Time for breakfast for me
Fael Illyar: well, not understand in that way :P
Crusty Goldshark: Bye guys
Fael Illyar: See you alter Crusty :)
Crusty Goldshark: :)

This meeting ended there.