2008.12.21 13:00 - Exploring the dreaming states

 The guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden.  The comments are hers.

When I got to the Pavilion Scathach and Wester were in conversation and very soon Tarmel joined us. 

  Tarmel Udimo: hi everyone
   Maxine Walden: hi Tarmel
   Wester Kiranov: hi tarmel
   Wester Kiranov: we hadn't started yet, really
   Maxine Walden: OK

  

I was moved by the difference between RL out my window (snowing)  and the SL scene next to the pool and fountain and clam balmy weather.

   Maxine Walden: so interesting, outside my RL window it is snowing  
   and here there is lovely weather and a fountain...
   Scathach Rhiadra: :)
   Tarmel Udimo: smiles

  

Tarmel begins our conversation about dreams and related issues. Riddle soon joins us.

   Tarmel Udimo: I read the log of your talk Maxine and found it quite  
   interesting 
   Maxine Walden: oh? glad you enjoyed it
   Maxine Walden: the talk about dreams ?
   Maxine Walden: hi Riddle
   Riddle Sideways: Hi Everybody
   Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Riddle
   Tarmel Udimo: hi riddle
   Wester Kiranov: hi riddle
   Tarmel Udimo: yes maxine and the dreaming awake reality
   Wester Kiranov: i liked that talk too
   Maxine Walden: rigjht, did you have some impressions, thoughts etc
   which came out of those thoughts re dreams/dreaming?
   Tarmel Udimo: well it reminded me how much I used to dream and into  
    looking at dreams I was into

  

In the midst of the discusison Pema makes his first of several appearances, experiencing crashing several times during the session, which may have created a kind of dreamscape for him re our session as we pursue the discusison of dreams and our conscious relation to our dreaming selves

   Wester Kiranov: hi pema
   Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
   Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema
   Riddle Sideways: hi Pema
   Maxine Walden: hi, Pema.
   Maxine Walden: Interesting, Tarmel
  Tarmel Udimo: and it made me realise how now I almost never but seem  
  to sometimes expereince those intuitice moments when awake 

  Tarmel  Udimo: hi pema
  Tarmel Udimo: *intuitive connections
  Maxine Walden: I find that interesting as well, how at different  
  times, under different conditions we recall or not our dreams and  
  perhaps relate/become aware of our intuitions differently
  Maxine Walden: so many factors internal and external which play into  
  our recalling or connecting with our inner dream/fantasy life, at  
  least for me
  Riddle Sideways: is your talk stored somewhere?
  Tarmel Udimo: so you think one is still dreaming all the time even  
  though one doesn't recall them?

Wester graciously offers the address where Kira talks are stored, in this case the recent talk on dreams I gave.

  Wester Kiranov: The talk is here http://www.kira.org/index.php?    option=com_content&task=view&id=88&Itemid=119  I just looked it up myself
  Maxine Walden: I believe that genesis has sent is a message that it  
  is stored at the Kira site...logs of events and talks...oh, thanks  
  Wester
  Riddle Sideways: TY
  Maxine Walden: yes, Tarmel, my understanding is that we are dreaming  
  all the time, even now when awake, in that the dreaming process is  
  constantly processing all the input from our inner and outer  
  experience and we probably recall only small fragments of the ongoing  
dream, as it were

Fefonz joins us as we continue our exploration of the dreaming process and the unconscious regions of experience

  Fefonz Quan: Hello all
  Maxine Walden: for me the unconscious region of experience, that we  
  do not have immediate connection with when awake , is a vital and deep- 
  going part of 'us' and of being...something I would love to have a  
  deep conversation with Pema and others about
  Riddle Sideways: hi fefonz
  Tarmel Udimo: hi fefonz
  Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
  Maxine Walden: hi Fefonz
  Wester Kiranov: hi fefonz
  Riddle Sideways: so this deep is going on at all time.
  Fefonz Quan: Hi :)
  Riddle Sideways: and sometimes we call it dreaming
  Riddle Sideways: sometimes call it fantasy
  Maxine Walden: that is my current understanding Riddle, all the  
  time, and we sometimes call it dreaming sometimes fantasy, yes
  Riddle Sideways: sometimes can't recall it
  Riddle Sideways: maybe sometimes call it thinking
  Riddle Sideways: simulating
  Maxine Walden: maybe so, Riddle...simulating thinking?
  Riddle Sideways: playing what-if
  Scathach Rhiadra: could our 'stream of consciousness' be part of the  
  ongoing dreaming?
  Wester Kiranov: perception, as well
  Riddle Sideways: faenik= why not
  Maxine Walden: yes, I think so Scatch...
  Tarmel Udimo: well if that is the case the more awake/aware become  
  the more that 'unconscious part' could no longer be unconscious
  Wester Kiranov: when we dram all that we see is made up by  
  ourselves, and when we are awake not all of it is, that is an  
  important difference
  Tarmel Udimo: and that's where our intuitive almost telepathic  
  moments come from
  Wester Kiranov: *dream
  Riddle Sideways: perhaps any processing that is not derived from  
  input simuli
  Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
  Maxine Walden: interesting thoughts...re the unconscious for me, it  
  is as vast as the external cosmos...likely never to be fully explored

Umbriel and then doug join us as we coninue to explore this inner psychic region. One topic that seems to capture interest and diverse discussion is the notion that our inner psychic states form the lens for our perception and experiece of the outer world.

  Riddle Sideways: hi Umbriel
  Fefonz Quan: although dreams do build on the day time experiences
  Fefonz Quan: (sometimes)
  Maxine Walden: well, here is an interesting thought for me: that the  
  world we see outside, what we perceive externally, is really comprised  
  from our inner perceptions
  Riddle Sideways: Hi Doug, get out of the fountain
  doug Sosa: quietly: hi
  Maxine Walden: For instance, if I am feeling good, what I see 'out  
  there' is mainly seen as peaceful; when I am upset, angry I 'see' more  
  disturbance 'out there'
  Umbriel Levenque: Hi doug :-)
  Maxine Walden: hi, doug
  Fefonz Quan: hi, doug
  doug Sosa: :)
  Tarmel Udimo: hi doug
  Wester Kiranov: so you choose what to see because of what you are  
  feeling?
  Maxine Walden: the lens of my feeling state greatly impacts 'what' I  
  see
  Fefonz Quan: i feel quite similar to what Maxine descries
  Fefonz Quan: describes
  Tarmel Udimo: yes I experience this and so moment by moment (when  
  I'me up for it) I try refreshing the outlook in a way
  Fefonz Quan: but does it effect only the "emotion" of things or  
  things themselves like in a dream?
  Umbriel Levenque: Yes Maxine. I've started to question my  
  perceptions more.
  Maxine Walden: for me, Fefonz, my inner state affects what I feel I  
  truly 'see' out there, not just the emotion of things out there. Does  
  that coincide with others' experience?
  Wester Kiranov: affect, yes, detemines no
  Tarmel Udimo: yes,
  Wester Kiranov: *determines
  Fefonz Quan: affect surely determines - i still wonder
  Fefonz Quan: (surely,)
  Tarmel Udimo: often when I am on beam I call it things unfold as they  
  should be, I think of something and it happens
  doug Sosa: well, amix for me. i can be in a tight mood and see  
  something beautiful suddenly and i respond to it.
  Fefonz Quan: right doug, i feel to that there is some mutual  
  corespondance
  Fefonz Quan: *too
  doug Sosa: right,and not completely deterministic in either direction.
  Maxine Walden: yes, doug, that is wonderful when that happens, and  
  maybe you are reminding us or me that it is not 100% but the tighter I  
  am inside the more constricted does the world out there seem,
  Maxine Walden: and vice versa...do these thoughts of ours connect  
  with PaB or Being?
  doug Sosa: closer,noticed :)
  doug Sosa: good question.
  Riddle Sideways: if we extend the dreaming all the time model...  
  then the seeing what we want to see mode is easier to understand
  Riddle Sideways: then the usual automatic no that is not real...
  doug Sosa: you mean we dream what we want to dream?
  Riddle Sideways: we see in our dreams what we choose to concentrate on
  doug Sosa: chose? Really? not my experience.
  Riddle Sideways: we can not focus on ALL all the dream
  Wester Kiranov: but dreams can get our attention to things we din't  
  see, too
  Wester Kiranov: didn't want to see, amybe
  Riddle Sideways: yes, isn't that really neat
  Fefonz Quan: i don't have a feeling that i choose the plots of my  
  dreams
  doug Sosa: I am not smart enough to make up the plots in my dreams.
  Fefonz Quan: though they are remarkably complicated sometimes
  Fefonz Quan: my point too, doug :)
  Riddle Sideways: nice putting yourself down Doug, but we  
  don'tbelieve you
  Maxine Walden: for me the dream plots and messages are so complex it  
  brings awe about an inner intelligence that is not under my control at  
  all.
  doug Sosa: yes,truly.
  Fefonz Quan: i found that control over the dream is achieved only if  
  i  recognize that it is a dream

And then be we begin to explore the notion of a greater intelligence at work/play which may sculpt our dreams and other unconscious elements

  Wester Kiranov: right. it's a part of you that is much bigger than  
  the "day" you
  doug Sosa: and even then it is control like driving a car,no that of  
  making the car.
  Maxine Walden: that we all have that inner intelligence operating  
  but may not know it...does that seem too 'far out'?
  Tarmel Udimo: not at all
  Scathach Rhiadra: no:)
  Riddle Sideways: nope
  Fefonz Quan: for me it does seem a little far out
  doug Sosa: I agree with maxine.but then the mystery is why is my dreamer  
  smarter than me the dream observer?
  Fefonz Quan: we have very broad imagine, too
  Wester Kiranov: but why is it so hard to recognize a dream as a dream?
  Riddle Sideways: the trick is to know that intel and dreaming and  
  bring it into 'day'
  Fefonz Quan: intel?
  doug Sosa: O dreaming and seeing are quite similar.
  Fefonz Quan: ok
  doug Sosa: similar worlds.
  Riddle Sideways: inteligence
  Maxine Walden: (such great questions and observations in this  
  conversation, it seems to me)
  doug Sosa: the question then is, what is the difference
  Wester Kiranov: I once had a dream that I recognized as a typical  
  dream situation - and then I thought "oh, so this can happen in real  
  life too"
  Riddle Sideways: who cares (is one good answer)
  Tarmel Udimo: in fact I think the more we experience who we really  
  are ie being we are more and more fully in contact with this 'inner  
  intelligence'
  doug Sosa: Seeing includes that stuff outside, whereas in dreaming  
  the "outside" is shut out. Te mind is freer
  doug Sosa: in the dream state,not constrained by outer things.
  Riddle Sideways: hi again pema
  Maxine Walden: I would currently agree with Tarmel re being in touch  
  with that inner intelligence

Pema rejoins us. Several of us try to brief him as to what we have been discussing.

  Umbriel Levenque: Hi Pema :-)
  Pema Pera: hi again everybody -- severe crash and reboot and . . . .  
  long story
  Maxine Walden: hi Pema, welcome back; hope we did not drive you away
  Fefonz Quan: infact one of the signs i have for eing in a dream is  
  "ilogical things happen'
  Tarmel Udimo: sorry to hear that very frustrating
  Fefonz Quan: Hi Pema!
  Wester Kiranov: hi pema - still discussing dreams here
  Fefonz Quan: *being
  Maxine Walden: we are talking about dreaming and being and related  
  items, Pema
  Maxine Walden: and nearly all us us agreeing there is an inner  
  intelligence which is much greater that our 'daytime' intelligence
  Riddle Sideways: ha, one of the signs that I am in RL is that  
  illogical things are happenings
  Pema Pera: :-)
  Fefonz Quan: we are in your dream riddle, wake up :)
  doug Sosa: riddle sideways lives up to his name.
  Riddle Sideways: i don'twant to wake up nor grow up
  Fefonz Quan: easier to avoid one of them
  Umbriel Levenque: :-)

We then begin to consider the dream quality of what is right before us, in this instance our very conversation, an idea which might have been difficult to digest.  

  Maxine Walden: for me it is interesting to think that for me and  
  all of us, this conversation is part of a dream...I see/understand  
  what each of you is saying according to an internal lens which is  
  affected by my inner state...and that may vary from moment to moment...
  Maxine Walden: and that each of you may see/understand this  
  conversation slightly differently according to your inner lens of the  
  moment
  Fefonz Quan: slightly, sure
  Riddle Sideways: it is soo much easier to see the 'lens' of SL,  
  virtual Reality, avs, computer tubes
  Riddle Sideways: try this same understanding in RL converstaion
  Fefonz Quan: yes, that's why i practice Pab not looking at the  
  computer Tarmel Udimo: yes I used that like a feed back mechanism  
  whether in RL or SL

Fefonz suggests we have a signifier DL for dream life.  Several of us roll that thought around and further consider the differences/similarities of RL and DL

  Fefonz Quan: should we defone DL - dream life?
  Tarmel Udimo: I try to see which lens is looking why my  
  responses are they way they are
  Fefonz Quan: define*
  Maxine Walden: lol, fefonz, DL as dreamlife! Maybe close to  
  or is an aspect of Being or our connection with Being
  Riddle Sideways: some of us where saying that there is no/ 
  little difference betweeen DL and RL
  Fefonz Quan: i find the declaration of no difference hard to  
  grasp
  Wester Kiranov: not as much as some people think, anyway
  Fefonz Quan: day to day live has some continuity, that dream  
  to dream do not have

Doug offers a couple of ways to consider the relationships of RL to DL: the constraints of RL sensory input vs the freedom of the dreaming state and the discontinuity similar to what one would find on different floors of a department store. Several of us ponder these and related views

  doug Sosa: the diffeence is eal, but not absolute. when  
  perceiving, the mind is constrained by what the senses bring in.in  
  dreaming the constraint is removed so the dream is a bit freer to do  
  odd things.
  Wester Kiranov: that's because we don't have the feedback  
  from outside in DL
  Wester Kiranov: (what fefonz said)
  Riddle Sideways: many times I see much continuity in the dreams
  doug Sosa: if you get in the elvator in the first floor of a  
  department store, there is no continuity with what happens when you  
  get off at 4.
  Riddle Sideways: yes
  Maxine Walden: lol, Doug
  Fefonz Quan: memory, at least...
  Fefonz Quan: (use the stairs next time...)
  Riddle Sideways: was having a good dream.... cat jumps on me  
  and I awake for moment... then goback to same dream
  Fefonz Quan: i had some continuities between dreams
  Maxine Walden: for me doug is reminding us of varying levels  
  of experience (floors of the department store) which seem to have no  
  continuity;
  Fefonz Quan:b ut they are rare and short

And Wester brings up the window we can often have upon the dreaming life as we let go of waking life in our going to sleep.

  Wester Kiranov: often when I am just falling asleep, I  
  suddenly remember what I was dreaming the day before
  Wester Kiranov: and I can get into that same dream again
  Fefonz Quan: that's impressive
  Maxine Walden: yes, Wester, it is often thought that as we  
  let loose of our conscious selves in falling asleep we have more  
  access to our dreams and 'inner' life
  Fefonz Quan: from movie to mini-series
  Fefonz Quan: sometimes i wish i could to that
  Riddle Sideways: and sometimes we ride the elevator back down  
  to floor 1 and find the same department :)

Perhaps naturally we consider the complexity of inner life in terms of levels of experience, and an inner intelligence which likely surpasses our conscious efforts in that regard. In addition the notion of labels comes up, what we label as awakeness and dreaming.

  Maxine Walden: and the notion of many 'levels' of inner  
  experience, dialog with our inner selves, makes the notion of a very  
  complex inner self impressive to me
  Wester Kiranov: i'm not doing it, it just happens
  Maxine Walden: 'levels'
  Tarmel Udimo: and what if we flipped it and saw it as not  
  'dreaming' but just in various stages of awakeness?
  Fefonz Quan: in what sense?
  Tarmel Udimo: which is 360 degrees
  Umbriel Levenque: My experiences with dreams are similar to  
  yours Riddle
  Tarmel Udimo: so therefore able to conect with multiple  
  levels of understanding
  Riddle Sideways: yep, everything the same, just labeled  
  different
  Maxine Walden: that would be interesting as well, Tarmel,  
  maybe we could use the term awakeness instead of dreaming...not get  
  hamstrung by labels
  Wester Kiranov: there are very different ways you could mean  
  awake here - in short, as being more aware of dreaming or dreaming less
  Tarmel Udimo: it brings us closer o see our reality as being  
  states
  Tarmel Udimo: *seeing

I am very grateful to Umbriel for reminding me what I had said in the earlier talk, that we dream rather constantly and that what we are talking about when we discuss dreams are those dreams that we remember.  it interests me that I can so easily fall back into using that shorthand of 'dreaming' when the more accurate notation would be 'remembered dreams'.

  Umbriel Levenque: According to what you said during the talk  
  Maxine, we dream more or less same amount but remembering less rather  
  than dreaming less... am I remembering correctly here?
  Fefonz Quan: for me a higher state of awareness in the dream  
  is to recognize it as such, why does the mere "dreaming" is highger  
  state of awareness then not dreaming?
  Tarmel Udimo: maxine points by labeling a process differently  
  we could perhaps see things in a different way
  Wester Kiranov: I gues being more aware of how much you are  
  dreaming makes you more awake
  Maxine Walden: Umbriel, I believe I did say that we probably  
  dream rather constantly but do not remember ...and our common everyday  
  comment about 'dreaming' refers to our remembering our dreams, even  
  here as we talk
  Riddle Sideways: I imagine Moon sneaking behind Maxine and  
  switching all her labeled states on the shelves
  Tarmel Udimo: smiles
  Umbriel Levenque: Thank you Maxine :-)

And it felt important to mention the caution about the potential hierarchy re renembering dreams vs not doing so...

  Maxine Walden: I think we could get into difficulty if we  
  glean that remembering our dreams is 'better' in some way than not. I  
  know some people who feel they do not remember dreams but have other  
 experiences, such as awakening with the 'answer' to a problem...so  
 ther e may be many equivalents of 'dreaming' and we should not get  
 into a hierarchy about which is better
 Maxine Walden: will watch for Moon! and possible  
 disorientation...!
 Fefonz Quan: i've read that we remember the dreams that were  
 dreamt just before we woke up
 Fefonz Quan: and though this hierarchy may not be better,  
 this is the way we can discuss them
 Riddle Sideways: or that we remember them in the way  
 conscience mind needs to deal with them (as maxinesaid)
 Maxine Walden: I think some dream researchers say that is so,  
 Fefonz. My experience suggests that things may be more complex than  
 temporality to awakening

Wester brings in a sweet cartoon which should actually be added to the chatlog as a 'picture' our our common experience of forgetting dreams and may just be a reminder that the remembered dream may be/ likely is only a fraction of the 'actual dream'...

 Wester Kiranov: http://xkcd.com/430/ - on remembering dreams
 Riddle Sideways: ha, very good Wester
 Fefonz Quan: i do agree that this point is more technical  
 than principal
 Maxine Walden: It is often very difficult to 'not know' about  
 the inner complexities and we may try to 'simpligy' so that we feel we  
 can know. The terror of 'not knowing' can make us seek simple rather  
 than awe at the complexity...
 Riddle Sideways: to some
 Fefonz Quan: nods, awing at the complexity
 Riddle Sideways: others might appreciate the appearances

And as we begin to leave we offer variations of 'have a good dream' to those heading for bed

 Wester Kiranov: going from SL to RL to DL now.
 Wester Kiranov: namaste
 Umbriel Levenque: :-) Bye Wester
 Pema Pera: bye Wester!
 Fefonz Quan: good night wester :)
 Riddle Sideways: bye Wester
 Tarmel Udimo: bye wester
 Maxine Walden: nice talking Wester. See you soon
 Pema Pera: enjoy all transitions!
 Scathach Rhiadra: namasté Wester
 Umbriel Levenque: Off to bed here also. Enjoy your day
 Maxine Walden: bye Umbriel
 Pema Pera: happy dreams, Umbriel!
 Riddle Sideways: niters Umbriel
 Scathach Rhiadra: night Umbriel
 Umbriel Levenque is Offline
 Riddle Sideways: they go.... to sleep perchance to dream
 Maxine Walden: An interesting conversation today...maybe we  
 can each think/dream about it an see how our understandings  
 evolve...yes, Riddle to sleep perchance to dream...
 Pema Pera: yes, fascinating, sorry I missed part o fit
 Pema Pera: I look forward to read the log, in due time!
 Pema Pera: and I have to leave now too
 Pema Pera: great seeing you all -- and I hope we can continue  
 this conversation soon(ish)!
 Maxine Walden: Pema, I will of course put up th chatlog. bye  
 Pema
 Scathach Rhiadra: Namasté Pema
 Tarmel Udimo: bye pema
 Fefonz Quan: Bye Peama
 Pema Pera: ciao
 Riddle Sideways: bye Pema
 Fefonz Quan: it's 12pm for me here, so SL-RL-DL too soon :)
 Maxine Walden: I will have to go as well...its been a great  
 conversation!
 Tarmel Udimo: yes thanks maxine - enjoyed it
 Fefonz Quan: yes, thanks for the conversation
 Riddle Sideways: and I have a cold, so might go back to bed  
 at 2pm
 Scathach Rhiadra: night Maxine, fefonz
 Maxine Walden: Please check the log and amend it if you like.
 Riddle Sideways: thank you Maxine=