Page last modified 12:25, 9 Apr 2010 by pema
2008.12.08 19:00 - Life is All About Surprises
Table of contents
No headersThreedee was the guardian that night. He sent me, Pema, the chat log, which I put up. I also provided the title.
Threedee Shepherd: Hello, Victoro, have you been here before?
Threedee Shepherd: Hi K
Victoro Radek: only once
K Caerndow: Hello there!
Victoro Radek: hope im not intrudeing
K Caerndow: You never are!
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Victoro Radek: cool
Threedee Shepherd: no, this is a discussion group that meets daily, although one us two cats are here, so far
Threedee Shepherd: Have you been here before
Victoro Radek: ive been here but not during a discussion
K Caerndow: Doesnt seem like much is happening though!
Victoro Radek: Would this be on meditation or zen?
K Caerndow: Hmm, and perma pera was wanting me to join this one to talk about something
Victoro Radek: do you care if i stay
Threedee Shepherd: neither, both, all, and more
Threedee Shepherd: one sec and I'll get you some info.
Victoro Radek: ahhhhhh you speak the entanglement of enlightenment
Adelene Dawner: You're welcome to stau, Victoro. This is a discussion group, mostly, with an associated meditation practice (optional) and som related... stuff. ^.^
Adelene Dawner: *welcome to stay
Victoro Radek: cool
Victoro Radek: what are these numbers about
Victoro Radek: above my head
K Caerndow: It measures your latent awesomeness
K Caerndow: It improves depending on how chillax you are
Adelene Dawner: We've been working on an autologging system - the chats are logged, by the way, I hope you don't mind - and the numbers are part of that autologging.
K Caerndow: Actually I'm not sure D:
Threedee Shepherd: One day, they will relate to automatic recording. We record and post all of these session, and I hope that is OK with you.
K Caerndow: Ooohhh so that explains it
Victoro Radek: lol
Bell: *ding*
Victoro Radek: so
Threedee Shepherd: K, I'm not sure whether we have met, but hello no matter what :>
K Caerndow: Oh, we have!
Victoro Radek: since this is my first time.... how do we begin
K Caerndow: But hello again, and hello for the first time!
Threedee Shepherd: My memory is not what it once was, which I can't recall anyway ;D
Threedee Shepherd: Usually we ask if regular members have had any experiences during the 9-sec "practice" that they want to report
Victoro Radek: ah
Victoro Radek: if you speak of meditation
Victoro Radek: i havent for a while
Threedee Shepherd: That often starts a discussion about some idea or topic related to "the nature of reality" and our experience of it.
Victoro Radek: i am interested in what has been said before
Victoro Radek: what has someone experienced
Victoro Radek: if you can recall
Threedee Shepherd: Well, there is an extensive lof and collection of abstracts on the group's website
Threedee Shepherd: *log
Victoro Radek: ah
Threedee Shepherd: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
Swallow Sexton: hey!
Swallow Sexton: how are you?
Threedee Shepherd: What are your interests in this "arena" of meditation, perception and reality?
Threedee Shepherd: And, K, anything you want to bring up?
Victoro Radek: well i am out of practice but if you would like to bring up anything i would be happy to
Victoro Radek: chime in
K Caerndow: Hmm... let me think
K Caerndow: Not exactly a wide group here tonight
Threedee Shepherd: Never know who will arrive, when
Victoro Radek: perception
Victoro Radek: most preceive that they live their lives
Victoro Radek: like there will always be another day
Victoro Radek: they make the mistake
Victoro Radek: or ignore
Victoro Radek: that one day they will die
K Caerndow: It's not a mistake to believe in the tomorrow
Victoro Radek: so
Victoro Radek: would the goal
Threedee Shepherd: An interesting point came up earlier today at a talk. There are those who question WHETHER there is an external reality. We are interested in consciousness. My question is, can consciousness exist without an external reality. Personally, I do not think it could.
K Caerndow: I'd be quite surprised if I didnt wake up!
K Caerndow: Well it depends on whether it begins that way
K Caerndow: of course it would be impossible to have a consciousness without an external reality to begin with
K Caerndow: since consciousness is defined by perception
Threedee Shepherd: why are you certain enough to say "of course"
K Caerndow: But if, hypothetically, you were to take an established consciousness and divorce it from external reality
K Caerndow: Then I believe it could exist
K Caerndow: Well you can't say "of course" about anything!
K Caerndow: Life is all about surprises
K Caerndow: but if you wake up every morning, surprised that you're still alive... well that's not very productive, is it!
K Caerndow: Better to live life as it comes, and worry about the details when they crop up
Victoro Radek: prehaps the goal is to live life like each day is important
K Caerndow: It doesn't have to be a goal! There's no need to set standards or achievements
K Caerndow: When you boil life down to its essence like that
K Caerndow: simply...
K Caerndow: Act!
K Caerndow: Do!
K Caerndow: Experience!
K Caerndow: Act!
Bell: *ding*
Victoro Radek: act or respond?
Threedee Shepherd: That sounds like what a 5-year-old odes, and that's not enuf
K Caerndow: And hello there, bell
K Caerndow: It's not that... it's of course important to think things through
K Caerndow: But at the same time, when you are thinking about life as a whole, it's easy to get caught up on details
K Caerndow: Worrying can become harmful in its own right! What's important is progress and productivity
Threedee Shepherd: what do youmean by "think things through"
K Caerndow: Well, you could ponder on a topic such as...
K Caerndow: the afterlife
K Caerndow: say
K Caerndow: You could spend your whole life worrting
K Caerndow: *worrying
Threedee Shepherd: Sounds like pondering about the tooth-fairy, given all the data I have
K Caerndow: weighing every doubt in your mind
K Caerndow: Trying to find the truth
Tarmel Udimo: hi all
K Caerndow: But then you realize... You're mortal! As am I! Who are we to try to find definite answers so quickly!
K Caerndow: And hello there!
Threedee Shepherd: Hi Tarmel
K Caerndow: And that's why It's better simply to live! There's no need to worry about trivial matters, or about inevitabilities
Threedee Shepherd: So wait, let me pose this a more practical way...
K Caerndow: Hello there Reyez
Reyez Dawodu: hey
Threedee Shepherd: Analect 1.1 of Confucious says: To learn something, and to apply it at the right time, Is that not a joy?
Tarmel Udimo: hi there reyez, back again like me :)
Reyez Dawodu: im new to this second life..what is this all about?
K Caerndow: And that is sage advice in its own right
Reyez Dawodu: and haha yes
K Caerndow: I suppose what I'm getting at is...
Threedee Shepherd: Hidden in there is purpose, time spent with an eye to the future, development of expertise (which takes time and motivation). All of that is more than just living life as it comes.
K Caerndow: So much about life for us humans... Or er... Bird-folk... or fuzzy lion-things
K Caerndow: Is about deciphering the unknown
K Caerndow: We want to understand things that we dont. We want to learn what we don't know
K Caerndow: And while I value knowledge above most other things
K Caerndow: It's important not to lose oneself in that pursuit!
K Caerndow: There's no need to dwell on death or inevitability
K Caerndow: Because it's going to happen! Why not embrace it?
Threedee Shepherd: On the contrary, on my best days I am totally "lost" in my pursuit, not aware of anything but the being of it.
K Caerndow: Oh I don't mean that... I'm still thinking about the first idea that was suggested
K Caerndow: Of people not realizing that they might not wake up the next day
K Caerndow: The point is that we take chanced at everything. Anything can cause our demise no matter how small or insignificant
Threedee Shepherd: Of course.
Threedee Shepherd: Death will happen, and when it does, it will no longer matter to you (except if there IS reincarnation), so why dwell on it?
Victoro Radek: I was thinking about the selfishness of the matter the lack of importance placed on life
Victoro Radek: and ignoring each day as important
Threedee Shepherd: say more why you use the term selfishness that way, please?
K Caerndow: Well every second is important! And yes, I would like to know the same
Victoro Radek: hmm
Victoro Radek: it seems correct
Victoro Radek: a over importance on oneself
Victoro Radek: prehaps
K Caerndow: Well the self is a very important thing
K Caerndow: Being undervalued might be more common than overvalued
K Caerndow: many people who seem selfish do so out of a lack of value for themselves
K Caerndow: Self-destructive behaviour is something that is almost natural to us. Even when it doesnt seem obvious
Victoro Radek: prehaps so but wouldnt it be selfish to burry yourself in sef destruction
Threedee Shepherd: If that is true, why do you think it is so?
K Caerndow: It is! But that's the point!
K Caerndow: Selfishness comes from a lack of value for oneself!
K Caerndow: At least that is what I would like to argue here today
Bell: *ding*
Adelene Dawner: Three, remind me to sic K on Claire sometime. ^.^
K Caerndow: Mmmm? That sounds fun :p
Threedee Shepherd: K, I have lost the logic of the argument. could you restate it for me?
K Caerndow: Oh, well, let me restate
K Caerndow: The idea is selfishness
K Caerndow: Thinking of people at their core... Self-destructive behaviour, doubt, low self worth
K Caerndow: essentially the first point, people not valuing themselves
K Caerndow: Now, what I am arguing is that selfishness, the idea of people valuing themselves highly, stems most often from the opposite
K Caerndow: from people not valuing themselves enoug
K Caerndow: It's a matter of perception of self versus perception from others
K Caerndow: Who is it that most wants others to respect them?
K Caerndow: Someone who doesnt feel respect for themselves
K Caerndow: They cover their doubts in the feelings of others
Tarmel Udimo: perahps it is the word selfishness
K Caerndow: Rather than simply valuing themselves for their own sake
Victoro Radek: I was sort of thinking the realization of death would break that cycle of selfishness
Threedee Shepherd: [19:48] K Caerndow: Who is it that most wants others to respect them?
Caerndow: Someone who doesnt feel respect for themselves That I get and agree with
K Caerndow: realizing that it is inevitable?
Tarmel Udimo: I am finding it difficult as you use it even though I understand what you are saying
Adelene Dawner: I think I see where you are getting confused, guys.
Tarmel Udimo: yes adelene?
Threedee Shepherd: I was once told, it's the performance that matters, not the applause that follows. Yet humans are SOCIAL primates.
Adelene Dawner: What K's talking about is not the obvious, severe kind of low self-esteem. It's a more moderate kind... where one knows that one is worth something, but not secure in that knowledge.
K Caerndow: Quite so!
K Caerndow: It's the recognition that people crave! Well... Socially adjusted people at least
Tarmel Udimo: and this why that someone behaves selfishly?
K Caerndow: What I'm saying is that selfishness, that coddling of oneself
K Caerndow: That desire to help oneself over others
K Caerndow: can stem from not valuing oneself enough
Threedee Shepherd: What if the craving for recognition was selected for and is now built into brain circuitry, in order to facilitate society's success?
Tarmel Udimo: I'm not sure if its stems from not valuing oneslef enough, but rather not valuing the "self" that is within a;; of us
K Caerndow: I wouldn't find that surprising in the least
Tarmel Udimo: could be three
Adelene Dawner: Yes - the selfishness is some combination of trying to confirm that they're worth a lot (shown by being able to get a lot) or defend the not-quite-secure idea that they're worth sometihng in general (in the sense of "I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I want it to be, so I'm going to bluff strongly that it is.")
K Caerndow: That's just it!
K Caerndow: Social insecurity!
K Caerndow: If anything, it's our fears and insecurities that drive our society, as much or moreso than any other force
Tarmel Udimo: ahhh well done adelene the though process has been untangled
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Tarmel Udimo: *thought
Tarmel Udimo: are you sourrounded by selfishness Kirka?
Threedee Shepherd: Well if you were always happy and satisfied, what is the motivation to do more?
K Caerndow: We all are! But the point is being able to recognize it
K Caerndow: if someone were to come up to me, with a straight face, and say "I don't have selfish thoughts"
Threedee Shepherd: Hi Steve
K Caerndow: I would think of them as a freak, to be honest
K Caerndow: Or a liar
K Caerndow: The point is how you express those thoughts in actions
Tarmel Udimo: is this something you are grappling with yourself?
stevenaia Michinaga: hi, I'm just here for the punchline tonight
Threedee Shepherd: Well, again, self-preservation in the most basic sense is built in by selection.
Tarmel Udimo: hi steve
K Caerndow: The punchline is tomatoes
K Caerndow rimshots
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
K Caerndow: Welcome, welcome, by the way
Tarmel Udimo: self-preservation in the most basic sense is built in by selection? can you say more?
Adelene Dawner: K's expounding on the topic of selfishness, tonight. ^.^
Threedee Shepherd: Actually Steve, I think the punch line is over at the bar in the cafe
stevenaia Michinaga: we moving there at 8:00?
K Caerndow: Ironic that I'm selfishly diverting the conversation to the matter of selfishness
Victoro Radek: lol
Tarmel Udimo: :)
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Victoro Radek: well guys and galls
Victoro Radek: ive got to be selfish and get going
Victoro Radek: lol
Victoro Radek: its been fun
K Caerndow: Bye then!
Threedee Shepherd: I go with what the sage Hillel said: "If i am not for myself, who will be, If I am for myself only, what am I? And if not now, when"
Victoro Radek: lol
Tarmel Udimo: ahhh
Bell: *ding*
Tarmel Udimo: has anyone spoken to swallow yet?
Threedee Shepherd: no, where is she?
Tarmel Udimo: she's been standing on the grass for a while
Tarmel Udimo: ahh now moved
Threedee Shepherd: bye Tarmel
Tarmel Udimo: see you all
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Tarmel
stevenaia Michinaga: night guys, looked busy tonight
Adelene Dawner: ^^
Threedee Shepherd: I will end this session (for me) by noting that there are many useful ideas (and philosophies) each seems to fit an instance. However none of them are well enough formed to see how thay might fit together in the multispace of concepts.
K Caerndow: A good note to end on as well
K Caerndow: I don't believe in single answers or easy solutions
Threedee Shepherd: 12/08/2008 end of log
K Caerndow: Well, good luck out here everyone! I'm back off to first life, how droll
Adelene Dawner: hehe
Threedee Shepherd: night
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