2008.12.03 13:00 - "Stopping" & "Acting"

Gaya was filling in for Quilty.

I arrived first and Scathach, Wester, Wol, Fefonz, Fael and Moon soon joined me.

Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Scathach Rhiadra: _/\_
Gaya Ethaniel: How are you Scathach? Have you been here before?
Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Gaya, yes just a couple of times so far:)
Gaya Ethaniel: ^^ so I can spare you from the PaB introduction
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Wester Kiranov: hi
Gaya Ethaniel: Hey Wester ^^ nice to see you again. How are you?
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wester
Wol Euler: hello everyone
Gaya Ethaniel: Hey Wol ^^ how are you this evening?
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol
Wol Euler: quite well, thanks. how is everyone?
Wester Kiranov: i'm fine, thanks
Scathach Rhiadra: i'm fine too
Wol Euler: hello fefonz
Gaya Ethaniel whispers... not sure Wol
Gaya Ethaniel: Hey Fefonz ^^ how are you?
Fefonz Quan: Hello everyone :)
Fefonz Quan: I'm great
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Febonz
Wol Euler gives Gaya's hand a squeeze.
Gaya Ethaniel leans on Wol... thanks
Fefonz Quan: like the Febonz scatach
Wol Euler: hello moon, fael
Scathach Rhiadra: oops, sorry!
Fael Illyar: Hi Everyone :)
Fefonz Quan: HI Fael!
Gaya Ethaniel googles Febonz
Scathach Rhiadra: Fefonz*
Gaya Ethaniel: Hey Fael and Moon ^^ how are you?
Faenik: why not?
Moon Fargis: aim fine thanks :)
Fefonz Quan: still liked it :)
Fael Illyar is good as well.
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello, Fael, Moon
Gaya Ethaniel: Google says "Did you mean: firebonz?" ^^
Wol Euler chuckles
Gaya Ethaniel: What does your name mean Fefonz?
Fefonz Quan: well, it's an old email name i got years back
Fefonz Quan: the FE was for physics/electronics department, believe it or not
Faenik: indeed?
Gaya Ethaniel: ah... ok
Fael Illyar: It kind of sounds like it might be more than that though :)
Fefonz Quan: and the FOnz is there cause my real name was already occupied
Fefonz Quan: and.. yeah :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ^^
Fefonz Quan: is there somewhere a dictionary for the "^^" kind words?
Fael Illyar: none that I know of :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes - http://www.urbandictionary.com/
Wol Euler: O.O
Gaya Ethaniel: [not sure about emoticons but there are loads of useful information on slangs]
Gaya Ethaniel: ^^
Fefonz Quan: nice! ^^
Fefonz Quan: (trying to get it myself, it looked like two eyebrows lifted, which means other thing i think
Fefonz Quan: )
Faenik: could be

---

 Gaya Ethaniel: Does anyone have any PaB related things to discuss?
Wol Euler secretly hands Moon a tiny piece of chocolate truffle.
Moon Fargis: O_O
Moon Fargis: CANDY!
Gaya Ethaniel: ^^
Moon Fargis: ^_^ *Nahm Nahm Nahm!* ^_^
Wol Euler grins and hugs the Moon
Moon Fargis purrzzzzzzzzz
Fefonz Quan: i was wondering about the seperation between the "stopping" in PasB and the "acting" in real life
Fefonz Quan: surely our destination is to "be" whatever we do (or is it?)
Fefonz Quan: but for now the practice "demands" stopping in a sense.
Wol Euler: I thought that "being" was the vehicle, not hte destination?
Fefonz Quan: for example - i wouldn't try it driving a car
Wol Euler: (small "b" that is)
Fael Illyar: I had a dream last night that I remember, the first one in ages
Wol Euler: mm?
Fefonz Quan: you're kidding - i have one every night
Fefonz Quan: (for fael)
Fael Illyar: well, almost remember :P
Fael Illyar: I remember just a couple of details that aren't really about the dream :)
Wol Euler: O.O
Gaya Ethaniel listens... for more clues as how the dream relates to Fefonz's question...
Fael Illyar: I remember it being kind of lucid, as in I was watching it and remember having a thought wondering "oh, that's the way it is."
Fael Illyar: but that's all ... no, not related
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.

---

Fael Illyar: what do you mean with this "acting"?
Fael Illyar: Hi Adele :)
Adelene Dawner: hiyo :)
Fefonz Quan: let's take "driving" as an example
Wol Euler: hello adelene
Gaya Ethaniel: Hey Adele ^^ how are you?
Fefonz Quan: Hi Adelene
Wol Euler smiles at Scathach. thank you :)
Gaya Ethaniel leans on Adele ^____^
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Faenik: could be
Fael Illyar: driving as an example ...
Fael Illyar: The dropping is not actually about doing or not doing as far as actions are concerned.
Wol Euler rubs Ade's nose gently.
Adelene Dawner purrs...
Faenik: なるほど^^
Fefonz Quan: it's not, but at least for me it's about seeing, and it's simpler without a lot of doing meanwhile
Fael Illyar: but for starting out, that's probably the only way to get started ... perhaps
Moon Fargis: when you think about driving it gets difficoult
Wester Kiranov: sorry, got to go. see you all some time later
Wol Euler: ah. bye wester, take care
Adelene Dawner: cya, Wester.
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Fael Illyar: I guess I'd say that it mostly means letting go of beliefs that are not necessary at the given moment.
Scathach Rhiadra: namasté
Fefonz Quan: bye wester
Wester Kiranov: namaste
Fael Illyar: like, for example believing that the car that just passed you has a driver who shouldn't drive a car might be correct but not necessarily in any way helpful for you.
Fefonz Quan: i totally agree with that attitude (and trying to apply it sometimes)
Fael Illyar: in fact, might even be harmful for you to pay attention to that detail.
Fefonz Quan: right. this is the "accept what it is" approach
Fefonz Quan: (accept inapt drivers - i dont think so :))
Wol Euler shrugs. Given that your inacceptance will not help them or you ...
Fael Illyar: What is, is, you can only try to guide it along with what there is.
Faenik: why not?
Fefonz Quan: right. but on some level i think that if i'll try to focus on my inner feeeling, for example, it will shift my attention
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Fael Illyar: Yes, until you're comfortable focusing on it, it will require a lot of attention. Experience makes it easier.

---

Fefonz Quan: leading me to another issue - how many points of observation can we hold simultanously?
Moon Fargis rises an eyebrow and notice that he dont got such evenn
Fefonz Quan: (observation==focus)
Wol Euler: depends whether you count the point that is observing you observing things.
Fefonz Quan: whatever you chosse, still is i 2(according to your caounting) or more?
Fefonz Quan: choose*
Fael Illyar: If you're used to observing something, it doesn't count as observation point anymore.
Moon Fargis looks at scatcha and nods :)
Fael Illyar: you will simply notice when there's something to notice.
Moon Fargis: "scathach
Faenik: ah :)
Fefonz Quan: for example, i am looking at the car in front of me, hearing a song in the rdio and "watching" my stomach heart - can i do these things simultaniously, or do i jump sequencially between them?
Moon Fargis: is that immportant?
Fefonz Quan: (a little similar to ask - are we multitasking or not)
Fefonz Quan: the importance for me arises from trying to watch my mind at work during the PaB
Fael Illyar: I'd say these focus points, as you call them are for learning things. Things you've already learned don't need them, unless something unexpected happens.
Fefonz Quan: i'm not sure, i can focus on an apple and appereciate it
Faenik loves wells!
Moon Fargis: frefonz: so when watching your mind and you hear something while doing it.. you already multitasked
Fefonz Quan: een if it doesn't surprise me with a warm :)
Moon Fargis whispers "amiga rulles"
Wol Euler pinches moon.
Fefonz Quan: unless i leaped from the first object to the sound
Fael Illyar: Yes, when you focus on an apple, you're learning about it :)
Wol Euler struggles to express a vague unease.
Scathach Rhiadra: when you focus on one thing are you not losing your focus ona anything else around you?
Wol Euler: if you can't tell the difference, does the difference matter?

---

Moon Fargis: ok hmm one test
Moon Fargis: please all try to do it in rl
Moon Fargis: rise you both hands
Faenik loves wells!
Moon Fargis: now draw a imagines circle with your left hand in the air and let it go around drawing the circle
Moon Fargis: then draw a line at the same time with your right hand
Moon Fargis: from left to right
Moon Fargis: and try to do it at the same time
Moon Fargis: one hand draws always a circle one goes from left to right and right to left
Fefonz Quan: think i managed to do it
Moon Fargis: ^^
Fael Illyar too.
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Wol Euler: it seems easier if I do them in time though, at hte same beat
Faenik: なるほど^^
Scathach Rhiadra: I noticed tiny stops when I focused on one or the other
Fefonz Quan: for me too
Moon Fargis: yes thats the reason.. when you start to focus durin it.. your multitasking get sided to one hand
Fael Illyar: the question is, is all the focus needed in one place?
Faenik: ah :)
Wol Euler: my focus was actually on counting beats, my hands got on best when I wasn't trying to control them
Moon Fargis nods
Fael Illyar: Yes, when you're doing something you know how to do, it goes better if you don't focus.
Moon Fargis: yes becasue your main logical mind is mor or less able to handle 2 things at once
Moon Fargis: maybe not even 2 more 1,4 things :)
Faenik: indeed?
Fael Illyar: what makes that "main" mind?
Moon Fargis: the subtle minds are for such things.. doing with not controlling
Moon Fargis: fael: what is 22+44?
Fefonz Quan: i thought the more primitive mind are dealing with automatic processes
Fael Illyar: 66 .. but why do you ask that?
Fefonz Quan: *minds
Moon Fargis: fael: becassue you used your main logical mind now solving this ::)
Moon Fargis: try to solve 2 math questions at once :)
Moon Fargis: your logical mind might go nuts :)
Fael Illyar: Yes, it's not too easy.
Wol Euler: or to do maths in a second language :)
Fefonz Quan: maths is a second language :)
Wol Euler: it always amuses me that Italian waiters who've been in the country for forty years, still add up in Italian.
Fael Illyar: even though I've listened to audio in one language and read text in another while staying more or less clear on what each was.
Moon Fargis: fefonz: yes also the subtle minds are for this they used for alot of stuff
Moon Fargis: fael: yes but do you reallly think about every scene when you watch a movie ?
Moon Fargis: with your logical mind ?
Wol Euler: hello naishma
Moon Fargis: or do you just watch and notice what happens
Naishma Braveheart: hello how are you
Moon Fargis: without thinking of it
Fefonz Quan: <oom: i you talking neurobiology or psychology (or other)?
Fefonz Quan: *moon
Wol Euler: I'll give you an introduction to the group in IM, so that we don't disturb the conversation
Fael Illyar: Hello Naishma :)
Moon Fargis: well both :)
Naishma Braveheart: ok
Fael Illyar: Moon, no, I don't think that much when I watch a movie.
Moon Fargis purrzzzzzzzzz
Moon Fargis: fael: yes becasue one of the subtile mindlayers watch and reconices it
Fael Illyar: Actually, when watching a movie, my mind is relatively empty, except for what is going on in the movie.
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Naishma
Moon Fargis: your logical mind stays free or is used for reading the text
Naishma Braveheart: hello Gaya
Moon Fargis: thats why people watch tv.. becasue they dont have to think :)
Fefonz Quan: exactly :)
Gaya Ethaniel: [Thanks Wol... not being a good guardian on call...]
Fefonz Quan: (said the one with no TV :))
Faenik: why not?
Fael Illyar: but I'd still not call the logical part of mind as the main one.
Fael Illyar: it has an important role but ...
Fefonz Quan: i would say there is no "main" procedure in teh brain
Moon Fargis: ah well i think that allso higly depends on the being itself
Moon Fargis: becasue everyonne is raised and educated and trained different using the mindlayers
Wol Euler: ah well [Naishima leaves]
Moon Fargis: but lets sell its one of the uppler level main layers ok ?:)
Moon Fargis: say
Fefonz Quan: and there is a process in those high layers, when we learn something and it becomes automatic
Fefonz Quan: thenit's like "shifting" from one layer to another
Faenik: indeed?
Fefonz Quan: i was amazed once to find out that i can drive a car almost automatically when i focus on conversation, for example
Faenik loves wells!
Wol Euler: "body memory" is the expression for that.
Fefonz Quan: so much then after it ws over i didn't remember any of the events on the road for the lst kilometers
Moon Fargis: well alot of terms there are
Fael Illyar remembers agonizing over realizing at one point that if she just forgot about the task to do and did it instead of trying to focus, it'd go perfectly but somehow wasn't able to not focus.
Moon Fargis: yes do without thinking is also a verry zen isch way
Moon Fargis: like .. the big example, tea ceremony
Fefonz Quan: it involves "body memory" for sure (like when playing certatin known tune)
Fefonz Quan: but it also involves high level of visual data processing
Fefonz Quan: (answering to Wol here)
Wol Euler nods
Scathach Rhiadra: does it not also involve being centered, so attention is not scattered?
Moon Fargis: well sure but your mind clears in the doing by itself
Moon Fargis: the center comes during the ceremony
Moon Fargis: for example
Moon Fargis: that you dont have other thoughts like "what do i dress tomorrow, am i dressed right?" durng the ceremony
Moon Fargis: hmm hard to explain
Moon Fargis: something that must be experienced i guess:)
Wol Euler: (odd kitchen noises, brb)
Fefonz Quan: but i thought aiutomatic doing is somehow the oposite of the "zen" idea to have attention in the here and now?
Moon Fargis sings "burning down the house..."
Fefonz Quan: *opposite
Moon Fargis: fefonz: ahh hehe thats why its so hard to explain, its not exaclty automatic
Moon Fargis: but you do it with awareness
Moon Fargis: not thinking about
Moon Fargis: just knowing what todo and do it
Moon Fargis: so your mind is still relaxed
Fefonz Quan: yes, i think that awareness is the issue here *because* we are so used to do thing automatically
Fefonz Quan: things
Faenik: ah :)
Fael Illyar: The question, of course, is where to focus your limited awareness to.
Moon Fargis: to your doing
Moon Fargis: just think drivin a card without awareness of the street and surrounding and people and signs
Fael Illyar: when you're not used to being aware of your mind, it may very well require more awareness than you can spare when driving, for example.
Fefonz Quan: Or - (and) - can it be "widened" to all we experience right now, like a wide angle flash-light instead of a narroew-angle one?
Fefonz Quan: (replying to Fael)
Fefonz Quan: *narrrow
Fefonz Quan: rr...rrrrr
Moon Fargis pu
Moon Fargis purrzzzzzzzzz
Fael Illyar: some of the need to focus the awareness also comes from that if it's too wide angle, you pick up too many things to react on and become overwhelmed.
Moon Fargis: ahh sadlyi have to go now
Fael Illyar: when you're just starting to focus on your mind, there's a lot to react on.
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Moon
Moon Fargis: was a nicce talk
Fael Illyar: Good night Moon :)
Moon Fargis: Good night everyone!
Fefonz Quan: night, Moon
Scathach Rhiadra: night Moon:)
Moon Fargis looks at wol
Moon Fargis: ~`~*Rooaarr*~`~
Faenik loves wells!
Wol Euler: back
Fael Illyar: wb Wol :)
Gaya Ethaniel: wb ^^
Gaya Ethaniel: I must go also... could someone post the rest of the log please?
Wol Euler: sure
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you so much Wol ^^ good night everyone
Fefonz Quan: Bye Gaya, and thanks for the dictionary!
Wol Euler: goodnight gaya, take care
Fael Illyar: Sure, see you later Gaya :)
Scathach Rhiadra: night Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: Pleasure Fefonz ^^

Wol added the rest of the log later.

Faenik: ah :)
Fael Illyar: Any thoughts about my last lines that were on topic?
Wol Euler looks back
Fefonz Quan: the focusing thing
Fefonz Quan: I heard some definition of vipasana meditation as opening wide to the wide rang of experiences we have
Fefonz Quan: in contrast with shamata - which focuses on a single object
Fefonz Quan: (hope the more experienced guys here won;t kill me for those dfinitions :))
Fefonz Quan: and from my experience
Wol Euler looks around. Don't see any knives.
Fael Illyar: none that experienced here I think :)
Fefonz Quan: i can say that this "opening" does have a different quality
Wol Euler: Scathach, do you meditate?
Scathach Rhiadra: like expanded awareness?
Scathach Rhiadra: oh yes:)
Fefonz Quan: yes
Wol Euler smiles. Do you find it narrowing or broadening?
Fael Illyar: but still, it's not the style to kill someone for not knowing :)
Wol Euler: not here at least :/
Scathach Rhiadra: hmmm, mostly broadening, I would say
Fael Illyar: Yes, me too, I find it broadening :)
Scathach Rhiadra: but the expanded awareness doesn't last long when you start to focus on something
Fefonz Quan: sometimes it feels like the experience is more "holistic"
Fael Illyar: observing things I wouldn't have known were there half a year ago daily :)
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Fael Illyar: mostly because I used to be rather insistent that there's nothing to observe :)
Wol Euler: ah.
Wol Euler: "Nothing can be a real cool hand", to coin a phrase.
Fefonz Quan: which means?
Wol Euler: that the act of focussing creates interest.
Wol Euler: what could be more boring than a walking meditation?
Fefonz Quan: sitting mditation?:)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Wol Euler: or closing your eyes and feeling yourself breathing?
Fael Illyar: There's always something to observe :)
Wol Euler: right!
Wol Euler: there is no "nothing".
efonz Quan: i agree. that's why i love flights
el Illyar: I've found that boredom is, for me at least, a sign that there's something I don't want to see.
Wol Euler: yep!
Faenik: ah :)
Fael Illyar: I tend to get a bit impatient when bored :)
Fefonz Quan: isn't that a tautology?
Fael Illyar: very useful thing to pay attention to that tells you that you're trying to run from something :)
Fefonz Quan: or for something
Fael Illyar: ah, yes, could be that too.
Fael Illyar: but feels different in that case
Fael Illyar: because if it's for something, you know what it is :)
Fefonz Quan: "a more interesting place and time"?
Fael Illyar: if it's that, it would count as boredom for me :)
Fael Illyar: and running from something.
Fefonz Quan: for me too :)
Fael Illyar: looking for something to keep me engaged so I can more easily avoid thinking about whatever it is I don't want to know/remember.
Wol Euler nods
Fefonz Quan: nods too
Faenik: ah :)
Fefonz Quan: sometimes i feel that even thinking can be a sort of entertainment to run from the "being" boredom
Fael Illyar: of course :)
Wol Euler: thinking can certainly be an excuse for not doing.
Fefonz Quan: chatting to myself in the head is not different from watching television
Fael Illyar: Oh, it is.
Fael Illyar: You're still being active in doing it
Fefonz Quan: sometimes, not always
Fefonz Quan: ok, then from playing on the computer
Fael Illyar: that can be active too :)
Fefonz Quan: and both can be an escape from what is happening now
Fael Illyar: watching television trains you to avoid being active.
Wol Euler: yep!
Wol Euler: and to have a short attention span and a shorter memory
Fael Illyar: playing computer games or thinking, you at least keep your abilities in use :)
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Fael Illyar: mental ones
Wol Euler: which is one of the main reasons that I always say that SL is not a game.
Fefonz Quan: ok, sorry gan for bringing the TV issue up, a bad metaphor :)
Fefonz Quan: *again
Wol Euler shakes her head. Sorry, crossed wires. It's getting late.
Fael Illyar: Well, it's just probably the worst method of avoidance to use :)
Fael Illyar: minimum decisions or things you need to do.
Fael Illyar: just click on the remote and there's something.
Fael Illyar: playing computer games you at least have to keep making decisions :)
Fefonz Quan: right.
Fefonz Quan: yes
Fefonz Quan: and infact my point is that for me am important part of the process of being
Faenik: ah :)
Fefonz Quan: (which started before the PaB experience)
Fefonz Quan: is stop thinking,
Wol Euler: ah :)
Fael Illyar: yes, making decisions doesn't require thinking :)
Fefonz Quan: at least in the regular way of internal cnversations
Fefonz Quan: so it is stop thinking - start seeing/experiencing
Fael Illyar: I'm finding thinking to be more and more of somehing I tack on after the decision, whatever I decide.
Wol Euler quietly excuses herself. I'm fading fast, I must go. Could whoever is last out please send Gaya the rest of the chat log?
Wol Euler: good night all, take care
Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Wol :)
Fael Illyar: Good night :)
Scathach Rhiadra: night Wol:)
Fefonz Quan: Good night wol :)

And with that, the session broke up.