2008.07.02 07:00 - HALT

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    This morning, Caledonia was the guardian, and she sent me the following log, with her comments.

    Logging in, collecting our fellow pabbers:

    Fael Illyar: Hi Cal
    Caledonia Heron: hi there Fael :)
    Caledonia Heron: is Doug Sosa a pab participant?
    Caledonia Heron: maybe I should go back to the telehub and help him to the new place
    Fael Illyar: he’s been at the meetings sometimes.
    Fael Illyar: yes, do that.
    Caledonia Heron: ah, maybe he has been here before
    Caledonia Heron: k, brb
    Caledonia Heron: hi again :)
    doug Sosa: hi, where is the group meeting?
    Caledonia Heron: we’ve taken to meeting over at an open air pavillion near to here if you’ve come for pab :)
    Caledonia Heron: would you care to follow?
    doug Sosa: yes.
    Caledonia Heron: ok, we’ll go back to the telehub where we met first :)
    doug Sosa: ok
    Caledonia Heron: follow me please :)
    Caledonia Heron: top right square…touch
    Caledonia Heron: you go first :)
    doug Sosa: ok, it opens a map.
    Caledonia Heron: yes, select teleport
    Caledonia Heron: see you there :)
    Fael Illyar: wb Cal :)
    Caledonia Heron: back :)
    Caledonia Heron: hi Maxine :)
    Maxine Walden: Hi, Cal
    Caledonia Heron: did Doug make it?
    Caledonia Heron: I don’t see him
    Fael Illyar: no, he hasn’t been here.
    Caledonia Heron: rats - I had him tp first
    Caledonia Heron: thought he would be here
    Caledonia Heron: ok, well, he knows the procedure

    Hello’s to all:

    Caledonia Heron: how’s everybody doing? :)
    Maxine Walden: doing well, and you?
    Caledonia Heron: well
    Caledonia Heron: nice to see you both :)
    Caledonia Heron: haven’t seen you in some time Maxine :)
    Maxine Walden: right, have not been coming to some of these meetings as regularly, so much RL stuff
    Caledonia Heron: understood….hard to fit it all in sometimes
    Caledonia Heron: have you met Fael before ?
    Maxine Walden: yes, several times, thanks for asking
    Caledonia Heron: ok, good - sometimes I’m not sure who knows who
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Caledonia Heron: there are guardians I don’t really know still
    Maxine Walden: I know what you mean, yes, and several I don’t know either
    Maxine Walden: I see you are dressed for summer, Cal, warm weather your way?
    Caledonia Heron: yes, very warm
    Caledonia Heron: over 100 20 of the last 30 days
    Maxine Walden: wow, yes that is hot

    Settling in and acceptance:

    Fael Illyar: I was wondering about this term, acceptance. How would you define it?
    Fael Illyar: stim said it’s a topic all to itself :)
    Caledonia Heron: hmmm that depends on the context
    Caledonia Heron: in what sense are you speaking Fael?
    Fael Illyar: as in, accepting things as they are. I guess related to appreciation and other terms I see a lot here.
    Caledonia Heron: ah ok
    Caledonia Heron: I thought it was along those lines but wanted to be sure
    Caledonia Heron: to me acceptance is going with what’s so, the way it is, not how you want it to be maybe
    Maxine Walden: sounds like you have been having some thoughts about this, Fael, I would like to hear them
    Caledonia Heron: also another aspect of acceptance is defined by it’s opposite resistance, acceptance is not resisting
    Fael Illyar: I’ve been thinking about the term since just saying accept things as they are doesn’t make it clear to people new to this sort of thing.
    Maxine Walden: can you say more?
    Fael Illyar: I’ve been pondering about this but I haven’t yet ended up anywhere close to putting much into words.
    Faenik loves wells!
    Caledonia Heron: lol
    Caledonia Heron: maybe just accept it :)
    Maxine Walden: For me it is useful to consider what state of mind I might be in re whether I feel I am in an accepting or resistant frame; when I feel cranky it is difficult to ‘accept’ because I am not feeling that way toward myself, but when feeling more rested such as now and here, it is much easier to accept because I feel that way internally. Not sure this helps, but may be a start
    Fael Illyar: My own take on acceptance in mostly in the context that “to change yourself, you must first accept what you are”.
    Maxine Walden: not to fight what you are, perhaps?
    Fael Illyar: and I’m mostly trying to figure out a way I could explain that idea to others.
    Caledonia Heron: you are what you are….you can “accept” that or not….it still ends up you are what you are
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Caledonia Heron: ah, how to explain it…I get that….it’s difficult to get across sometimes

    Getting a little sticky, what with vocabulary, multi-threads and trying to talk about a moving target:

    Fael Illyar: I mean, the people who would benefit from understanding that consider this “who you are” part to be unchangeable, even though it’s mostly something you have.
    Caledonia Heron: perhaps….am I misreading? Do you mean a divide between those who “understand” and those who “don’t”?
    Maxine Walden: those people may be ’stuck’ in the view that the world ‘just is’ and they have trouble envisioning that it can be seen from different perspectives
    Fael Illyar: divide?
    Maxine Walden: the notion of ‘different ways of seeing’ can feel belittling to those who have felt all along that their view was the only one available, but that may not address your concern exactly
    Caledonia Heron: probably my reading of the text…It sounded like an us/them statement…”people who would benefit”…..likely my mistake
    Caledonia Heron: yes Maxine - that goes to world view and self actualization - how individuals see the world and their role I think
    Fael Illyar: Well, this part I don’t know how to handle without dualistic thinking :)
    Caledonia Heron: ok, I see Fael…I know what you mean I think

    We think about what we’re thinking for a bit:

    Maxine Walden: as we are talking I find myself thinking of a kind of conversation with someone who says ‘this is how it is, how I am…unchangeable’; to suggest that it might feel strange, or shocking or minimizing their certainty if another view seemed interesting to consider…
    Caledonia Heron: funny, I was tracking along that way too….thinking of conversations with people where it’s all about their world view or nothing….black/white, nothing in between

    Back to set world views:

    Maxine Walden: addressing with compassionate observation the difficulty in consideing a wider view…does that aid in our thoughts? Yes, Cal, similar thinking
    Caledonia Heron: it’s more like “this is how it is” not even up to the level of their part in choosing that
    Maxine Walden: yes, as if no choice at all on their part,
    Faenik: why not?
    Maxine Walden: and it feels so intense and ‘the only way’ that it can feel shocking to their certainty if another view appears on the horizon
    Caledonia Heron: yes, I have wondered about when that happens to people who operate like that….it can rock their world in all kinds of ways, positive and negative
    Maxine Walden: agree. Maybe sometimes they hold tightly and close down, insisting on their way (fundamentalist perspectives?) But I am also trying to think of when I can fall into that state of mind, maybe when I get weary or ‘at the end of my rope’
    Caledonia Heron: ah, coping strategies :)
    Caledonia Heron: this reminds me of my affinity for this discussion group…the openness and multiplicity of views
    Maxine Walden: then I can fall into a pit of ‘that’s it, no more patience’ and I can feel angry/etc out of fatigue at the whole world..
    Maxine Walden: yes, so nice to be able to be open with each other. At that moment of ‘end of the world’ for me I can recall feeling a kind of beligerence toward anyone who offers anything, as if I can be stuck in my aggrieved state of mind
    Caledonia Heron: I see your point….there’s an old acronym about sending email that kind of applies to dealing with people….HALT….don’t send email if you’re hungry angry lonely or tired…..
    Caledonia Heron: …lol…or drinking :)

    On being aggrieved:

    Caledonia Heron: yes, being aggrieved can feed itself, yes?
    Maxine Walden: sort of ‘don’t challenge my world view…it is all I have” Yes, I have found that maxim very useful email wise
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I think being aggrieved can and does feed itself. I think that’s how people can end up being badly depressed.
    Maxine Walden: yes, the aggrieved state of mind seems very hungry; remembering the poet Robert Burns who in describing a bitter woman said ‘nursing her wrath to keep her warm’.
    Caledonia Heron: yes, a sinking downward in personal aggrievement (is that a word?)
    Maxine Walden: sounds like a good word to me
    Caledonia Heron: lol, great quote
    Maxine Walden: different dimensions of experience, but that aggrieved state is like a parallel world because it seems so non-communicative
    Caledonia Heron: there’s are ways to release aggrievement….we each have our own I suspect
    Maxine Walden: yes, maybe good to share
    Caledonia Heron: unless you get similarly aggrieved persons colocated
    Caledonia Heron: then….there’s all kinds of communication! :)
    Maxine Walden: the image of increasingly large black hole comes to mind as the aggrieved congregate
    Caledonia Heron: my daughter says…let’s all go to our happy place :)
    Maxine Walden: lovely comment

    Did we answer the original inquiry?:

    Maxine Walden: Fael, is this conversation helping in your question?
    Fael Illyar: I’m not sure :)
    Caledonia Heron: yes, we’ve kind of meandered along the garden path….hopefully among some related flowers
    Faenik: could be
    Fael Illyar: It does help in understanding a bit better how people could end up that way though.
    Caledonia Heron: sure
    Maxine Walden: and how entrenched certain states of mind can be,
    Fael Illyar: Which could be very useful in trying to figure out a place to push a wedge in to get them out.
    Caledonia Heron: it’s not like there’s a pinpoint answer imo
    Faenik: why not?
    Maxine Walden: you know, that is interesting, maybe we are invited to push in a wedge, to combat the aggrieved state of mind in some way…not sure that works very well, in my experience, it just sets up more entrenchment,
    Caledonia Heron: a good part of our survival existence is parsing up the world to make sense of it…that would speak to the wedge notion
    Maxine Walden: for me trying to mention the dilemma, such as ‘a part which may wish for a way out and another part content with the certainty of the entrenched way’
    Caledonia Heron: yes
    Maxine Walden: observing may be helpful here
    Caledonia Heron: I’m trying to figure out how to express something beyond “a way out” and “stay entrenched”……it has to do with the idea of being open to possibilities
    Maxine Walden: yes, good thing to think about
    Caledonia Heron: that a way of consciousness, of intentional being is about being possible, about having possibilities, allowing others possibilities
    Caledonia Heron: sound possible? :)
    Faenik: ah :)
    Maxine Walden: sounds possible to me;
    Caledonia Heron: it’s like fanning out your hand when you play cards….you can see all the options and you select the best fit and scope the possibilities for the future
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Maxine Walden: how to encourage that open hand by demonstrating it…something like that, Cal?
    Caledonia Heron: yes, I think so Maxine…..allowing others to show up in their best possible way feeds your own best ways which creates a really empowering circle of…..something, energy I think
    Maxine Walden: yes, that makes sense to me, very nicely put, Cal.
    Faenik: why not?

    Doug makes another go of it:

    Caledonia Heron: Doug is back on…sent tp :)
    Maxine Walden: I will have to go very soon, hard to believe the time, have really enjoyed this conversation, as I do always
    Caledonia Heron: yes me too :)
    Maxine Walden: well, will go, bye Cal and Fael, look forward to more good conversation. Take care
    Fael Illyar: It’s been interesting, if on the limits of my current understanding :)
    Caledonia Heron: bye Maxine
    Faenik: why not?
    Caledonia Heron: I’m hoping it was of interest Fael :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I think it was :)
    Caledonia Heron: I’m willing to accept that :)
    Fael Illyar: Although I’m still not sure if I understood it all :)
    Caledonia Heron: we have plenty of time to enlighten each other I hope :)

    And…ta-da….here’s Doug!:

    Fael Illyar: Yes :)
    Caledonia Heron: yay!
    Caledonia Heron: Doug has been trying to tp over….I think he will come as we go :)
    Faenik loves wells!
    Fael Illyar: he’s got a problem getting here?
    Caledonia Heron: ah, here he is :)
    Fael Illyar: Ah, now it worked
    Fael Illyar: Hello Doug :)
    Caledonia Heron: it worked fine for me - I think he is learning the ropes :)
    You shout: over here Doug
    You shout: in the pavilion
    Fael Illyar: pavilion is this way
    Faenik loves wells!
    Caledonia Heron: yay! hello Doug :)
    Caledonia Heron: welcome :)
    Caledonia Heron: seeing you walk Fael shows your glorious outfit…..lots of movement :)
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Caledonia Heron: join us in open chat Doug :)
    Fael Illyar: Is this your first time since we moved to this new meeting place?
    Caledonia Heron: click the “local chat” tab Doug…..you are talking in private im to me and I think you are responding to Fael?
    Caledonia Heron: or….click the bottom left cartoon bubble on your browser to bring up the text box line
    Caledonia Heron: do you know the one?
    doug Sosa: ok,
    Caledonia Heron: ah, very good!!
    doug Sosa: is that better?
    Fael Illyar: That works better :)

    OK, all on the same page in a redacted sort of way! And wouldn’t you know, it’s time to go:

    doug Sosa: looks like I am ‘here”
    Caledonia Heron: yes, now we can be in conversation together :)
    Caledonia Heron: well done - a feat in itself
    doug Sosa: so, as i was saying, this reminds me of kindergarten, large world and little idea of what to do.
    Caledonia Heron: lol - lots of recess, snacks and naptime :)
    doug Sosa: your patience is endearing
    Caledonia Heron: :) that’s sweet…..want to get to know you :)
    doug Sosa: onward..
    Fael Illyar: In a way, it is kindergarten like… well, except that it’s filled with adults.
    Caledonia Heron: yes, lots of elements of play, directed play :)
    Caledonia Heron: play as being :)
    doug Sosa: adults are just kids with thicker skins and more memory. with effort we can stay vulnerable.
    Caledonia Heron: yes, we lose our grace as we compartmentalize the world…..find a way to tap the grace at will :)
    Caledonia Heron: not lose really, just hides a little bit
    doug Sosa: i looked at your profile, lots here, but no RL
    Caledonia Heron: ? I don’t understand
    Caledonia Heron: nothing in the rl tab?
    doug Sosa: lots of sl activities..
    doug Sosa: i didn’t get anything in rl tab
    Caledonia Heron: oh, yes, maxed out on groups for sure
    doug Sosa: have we met in rl?
    Caledonia Heron: no I don’t believe so, unfortunately :)
    Caledonia Heron: I have not met anyone in sl other than those I work with directly
    Faenik: could be
    doug Sosa: which part of the planet?
    Caledonia Heron: (google earth zoom in)…….north america, usa, {state}…..
    doug Sosa: how do i get rid of the shakespeare on top of my head?
    Caledonia Heron: right click yourself, select groups, select whatever group you want, select activate
    doug Sosa: {state}? i am on the {name} river.
    Caledonia Heron: somehow I don’t think that’s in {name} :)
    Caledonia Heron: or what is formerly known as {name}
    doug Sosa: got rid of it. now, yes. It was {name} till the US bought it. {name} and all that.
    doug Sosa: so on the coast {name}.
    Caledonia Heron: you are from the qwaq forum, yes?
    doug Sosa: yes, but I’ve not been participating due to a new project of some complexity.
    Caledonia Heron: ok, yes I was introduced of WoK in Qwaq from SL….participated there briefly
    doug Sosa: Is this where Pema’s group meets? Did it meet this morning?
    Caledonia Heron: yes, we are that meeting
    Caledonia Heron: you are in the right place :)
    doug Sosa: ah. but late, no?
    Caledonia Heron: yes, we are breaking up….7am SLT for typically an hour
    doug Sosa: thanks.
    doug Sosa: now, getting to know you.
    Caledonia Heron: lol, :)
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Caledonia Heron: yes, I have stayed over….I have to go to a meeting elsewhere….I hope you will come again
    Faenik loves wells!
    doug Sosa: :()
    doug Sosa: wow, oops.
    Fael Illyar: Bye Cal :)
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    doug Sosa: bye. and i need to go..
    Caledonia Heron: me too….adios :)
    Fael Illyar: Bye Doug :)

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