That morning, when I entered the pavilion, Adams and Maxine were already there, and Fael joined us at almost the same time.
Maxine Walden: how are you?
Adams Rubble: Hello Pema :)
Maxine Walden: hi, Pema
Pema Pera: Hi Adams, hi Maxine, good seeing you both!
Adams Rubble: I am well Maxine, how are you
Maxine Walden: and you, Pema. I am well, thanks, Adams, nice to be here
Adams Rubble: yes, of course, and you Pema :)
Fael Illyar: Hi Maxine, Pema, Adams :)
Adams Rubble: Hi Fael :)
Maxine Walden: hi, Fael
Pema Pera: Fine! Resting in my hotel room at the end of a looooong day
Pema Pera: hi Fael!
Maxine Walden: yes, it is very late for you Pema, nearly midnight
Adams Rubble: I hope we don;t do anything to disturb your rest
Fael Illyar: Ah, it’s 11pm in Japan
Pema Pera: oh no, this is the more restful part of the day
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: I’ve been busy with astro buddies
Pema Pera: working on getting stars rezzed in OpenSim, the open source version of SL
Pema Pera: teaching stars to feel a different kind of gravity than we do here
Pema Pera: attracting each other rather than falling down to teh ground
Maxine Walden: now that is interesting
Adams Rubble: :)
Fael Illyar: :)
Pema Pera: I wish I could bring you over there
Faenik loves wells!
There had been an announcement by Linden Lab, http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/07/08/ibm-linden-lab-interoperability-announcement/, just a few days earlier. It started off with This is a historic day for Second Life, and for virtual worlds in general. IBM and Linden Lab have announced that research teams from the two companies successfully teleported avatars from the Second Life Preview Grid into a virtual world running on an OpenSim server, marking the first time an avatar has moved from one virtual world to another. I commented briefly on that announcement.
Pema Pera: there *is* now a limited way of teleporting from SL to the OSgrid
Maxine Walden: I would love to go at some point if it were possible
Pema Pera: but not yet straightforward
Pema Pera: perhaps in a few months or so, we’ll have to see
Pema Pera: but it sure is fun to rezz stars, put there where you want them, and then let them go, and see them circling around each other, like a real star cluster
Maxine Walden: master of the universe
Adams Rubble: :)
Fael Illyar: :)
Pema Pera: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gM4fmL6dLdY
Pema Pera: gives you some taste
Maxine Walden: do they orbit according to Newtonian principles?
Pema Pera: yes
Maxine Walden: intriguing
Pema Pera: inverse square law of attraction
Maxine Walden: right
Pema Pera: could easily add general relativity
Pema Pera: or anything else
Maxine Walden: wow, that is intriguing
Pema Pera: there is a simple black hole simulation in the youtube movie we made
Pema Pera: for which I gave the URL above
Fael Illyar: Interesting :)
Fael reported on the great work she has done, helping us all to get up to speed with the new PaB wiki.
Fael Illyar: I just finished trying out the tutorial I wrote for posting meeting logs on the wiki.
Pema Pera: great, thank you Fael!
Maxine Walden: yes, Fael, thanks for that effort, sure it will be very helpful
Maxine Walden: for such as me
Pema Pera: I’m always slow with new software too :)
Fael Illyar: Cal managed to get it wrong still. I think she used Word even though I told her not to.
Maxine Walden: glad to know I am not alone; it can feel daunting
Adams Rubble has been listening to singing stars
Maxine Walden: singing stars?
Adams Rubble: Pema’s utube video
Maxine Walden: ah
Pema Pera: Talking about astro, I’ll have to leave at 7:30 am SLT
Pema Pera: unfortunately
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Pema Pera: and I’d like to comment on a couple points in your blog, Adams
Adams Rubble: yes please
Pema Pera: 6 hours ago I was telling everybody how inspiring I find your relentless exploration
Pema Pera: of continuing
Pema Pera: wherever it leads, not stopping when seeming to find answers and not stopping when seeming to be stuck but continuing in both cases
Pema Pera: Most people find that very hard to do
Pema Pera: or more accurately, don’t sense that that is an option
Pema Pera: We are so habituated in wanted to find a solution — then stop — or giving up — then stop.
Pema Pera: So thank you again for your inspiration!
After thanking Adams again for setting such a great blog writing example, I brought up the notion of a creator, which she had refered to.
Pema Pera: The specific question I had, partly a comment, concerns what you wrote about Being as a kind of Creator God
Pema Pera: There I have a somewhat different understanding of Being
Pema Pera: I see parallels between Being and notions like God, or Suchness, or Tao
Pema Pera: but I think the usual understanding of God creating the world does not apply to Being
Pema Pera: And in fact, I think some of the Christian and Jewish mystics may also have understood that notion in quite a more subtle and different way than it is normally understood
Faenik: could be
Pema Pera: For one thing, our everyday understanding of creation means there is a creator and something that is created — a split, a duality, a separation
Pema Pera: and in Being there is no such.
Pema Pera: Does that make sense?
Fael Illyar: If you consider the world we know a dream that is seen by Being, you could consider Being the creator in that way.
Adams Rubble: thank you for the feedback
Adams Rubble: I used the God fo Christianity because I kind of understand it
Adams Rubble: I was looking for the differences
Fael Illyar: although, dream isn’t exactly creation.
Adams Rubble: and so my explorations were comparing Being and th4e Christian God
Pema Pera: which is a great way to start!
Pema Pera: Every exploration has to start somewhere
Adams Rubble: I accept the creation not being part of being, thank you
Adams Rubble: Last night I went to a lecture on Buddhism for beginers
Adams Rubble: and I asked about dharma
Adams Rubble: and the isnstructor gave a description that sounded very much like Being
Adams Rubble: I looked up dharma last night
Faenik: なるほど^^
Adams Rubble: and it seems this might be a Mahayana tradition
I hinted at the notion of Being, always hard to pin down.
Pema Pera: The term Being is something that I collected from a few different sources, mostly outside Buddhism in fact, though it is completely compatible with Buddhism
Pema Pera: and to say that Being is NOT creating the world may also be wrong . . . :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: Fael’s metaphor of a dream is intriguing
Pema Pera: a nice pointer
Fael Illyar: It’s related to what I talked about with stim.
Pema Pera: What I think *is* wrong is the tendency in Christian circles to see God as the totally other, to be feared, and we as the small “creatures” more or less separate from Him, living in sin, all that
Adams Rubble: /agrees strongly with that
Pema Pera: and yet, even there I can see a way that those attitudes “could” be useful, like a medicine taken in the right way — certainly many great mystics in Chirstianity got a lot of mileage out of their religion. Where they to appear here, I would stop talking and let them teach us . . . .
Fael Illyar: Yes, that’s quite exactly what turned me away from christianity.
Pema Pera: Specifically, when I say “we are like a hand puppet that cannot do anything by itself” there is overlap with “we are not fit for anything good at all, helpless, hopeless, hapless” :) — IF that is taken in the way of a handpuppet, it can actually be liberating!
Adams Rubble: It seems to me mystics of various religions have much in common with each other
Pema Pera: YES!!!
Pema Pera: they see
Pema Pera: the same thing
Pema Pera: reality
Faenik: なるほど^^
Pema Pera: The problem with Christianity and all religions really is this: Mystics see — try to translate into words — church officials run with the words while collecting money and keeping people in line and in doing so interpreting the words in stifling ways . . . .
Pema Pera: like pinning butterflies to a page
Faenik: indeed?
Adams Rubble: oh my
Adams Rubble: haha
Fael Illyar: Yes, that’s a problem
Pema Pera: watch out Fael!
Adams Rubble is still laughing
Pema Pera: Good thing you have Faenik to protect you
Adams Rubble: hehe
Fael Illyar is clearly missing something now.
Adams Rubble doesn;t wan’t to be pinned to a page
Pema Pera: your wings, Fael, make you look like a butterly :)
Maxine Walden: the corruption of the institutional tendency…and yet it is difficult to remain open and uncertain so we often look to teachers, ‘churches’ to aid us in our uncertainty
Fael Illyar: Ah :)
Fael Illyar: Well, it’s a good thing hierarchies are slowly losing power all over the world.
Maxine Walden: and that very effort, to look for guidance, can pin us down
From creation to time to aspects of Being
Pema Pera: If I may say a few words more about “creation”
Pema Pera: Fael’s softening to dream is a great step
Pema Pera: and we can make a few more great steps
Pema Pera: and perhaps keep “creation” by taking off the stifling parts
Pema Pera: For one thing, creation seems to establish a form of existence and endurance in time
Pema Pera: whereas a key element in Play as Being is to learn to see that there is no time
Pema Pera: no past and future
Pema Pera: not even a present as we normally understand it
Adams Rubble: hmmmm
Pema Pera: only a fourth kind of time, you could say
Pema Pera: and of course I would have to say a whole lot more
Pema Pera: of what I mean with that
Pema Pera: otherwise it would be just silly or puzzling
Pema Pera: In fact, Avastu refered to something similar
Pema Pera: He is wonderfully helpful in saying pretty much what I’m trying to say
Pema Pera: but in quite a different way :-)
Adams Rubble thinks in a very different way
Pema Pera: perhaps, perhaps not — we have to compare notes in more detail Adams, I think
Pema Pera: before we can conclude to what extend we think differently, but
Pema Pera: what do you think our differences are?
Fael Illyar: This subject makes it so easy to think you’re disagreeing when you’re infact agreeing
Pema Pera: YES!
Adams Rubble: yes, I agree with that
Pema Pera: hahahahahaha
Pema Pera: that was funny
So we had just agreed that agreeing may look like disagreeing!
Adams Rubble: I will have to hear more about the time isue
Pema Pera: yes, it’s a really big issue
Pema Pera: Being is one word
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Pema Pera: to key pointers are:
Pema Pera: no identification and no time
Pema Pera: we’ve talked more about the first (from having to being) and less about the second
Pema Pera: looking forward to doing so soon!
Fael Illyar: Being is simple but the modifications needed to understand it to our complex models of the world are complex.
Pema Pera: yes, Fael, you expressed that very nicely in a chat log I just put up!
Fael Illyar: which one was that?
Fael Illyar: … I guess I’ll go look
Pema Pera: Ah, I found it
Maxine Walden: It will be very interesting to talk more about time, I think we all would appreciate that, when time allows
Pema Pera: You were talking about Avastu, that was it.
Pema Pera: What he’s saying is not complex but to understand it requires us to modify a lot of our complex mental models of the world
Pema Pera: that’s what you said — applies here too, I think
Pema Pera: http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/2008/07/06/diversions-and-meditations/
I then tried to translate Being partly into Christian terms.
Pema Pera: Let me make one opening move, Adams, if I may, about the time discussion, before I leave
Pema Pera: If I were to say it in Christian terms, this time issue, I might try to talk like a Christian Medieval Mystic, something like
Pema Pera: “In Gods eye, each moment is already showing the fullness of eternity”
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: we can try to feel that
Pema Pera: try to look with God’s eye, each moment
Pema Pera: each moment
Pema Pera: each moment
Pema Pera: without trying to understand
Pema Pera: just trying to do it
Pema Pera: perhaps we can all do that for a bit
Maxine Walden: each moment having the fullness of eternity
Pema Pera: (replacing “God” by whatever we prefer)
Pema Pera: before we meet again
Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Pema :)
Maxine Walden: I think that a lovely meditation
Adams Rubble: Thank you Pema. bye :)
Pema Pera: looking forward to hear from all of you — bfn!
Adams Rubble does too
Pema Pera: off to the stars :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Maxine Walden: yes, bye
I had to take off, to attend my astrophysics meeting. Adams would later send me the remainder of the session log. The comments from here on are hers.
Pema left and Maxine followed quickly
Maxine Walden: Actually I should be going too; not to the stars, just to more mundane RL stuff
Adams Rubble: bye Maxine :)
Maxine Walden: so see you all soon.
Adams Rubble: wow
Faenik: indeed?
Fael Illyar: yes?
Adams Rubble: just a bit overwhelmed :)
The conversation turns back to posting on the Wiki and I learn about deindenting
Adams Rubble: on a different note, how do you get the color into the wiki…is that in your tutorial?
Fael Illyar: I’d prefer leaving that part out. Makes it more difficult to change the style later if people add that to logs too freely.
Fael Illyar: We can change the general style to include color if that’s useful
Adams Rubble: OK, it seems as if everyone is using color but me, that’s all :)
Fael Illyar: I’m hoping they’d stop :P
Adams Rubble: I’ll start a trend then :)
Fael Illyar: I’m already wondering how to clear up the mess from most of the logs that have been posted so far.
Adams Rubble: Ah, any mess from mine?
Fael Illyar: I think everyone else has been doing it a bit strangely. My posts imitate the style (html-wise) of Pema’s blog posts almost exactly.
Fael Illyar: Pema called the differences improvements
Fael Illyar: which ones were yours?
Faenik: why not?
Adams Rubble: July 6-Each Day Ends on Time
Adams Rubble: I see you indented
Adams Rubble: I left in one heading in wrong size I see
Fael Illyar: Yours is the closest to correct and easiest to fix to be the way it should be.
Adams Rubble: So, should we all be indenting?
Fael Illyar: that’s the way all the logs in the blog are currently
Fael Illyar: and I think it makes it easy to tell the comments and meeting log apart
Adams Rubble: how do you indent? Is that in your tutorial?
Fael Illyar: I think the process I outline in the tutorial makes it quite easy
Adams Rubble: OK, I’ll look
Fael Illyar: one indent for the logs, one deindent for each comment
Adams Rubble: deindent?
Fael Illyar: well, the decrease indent button
Fael Illyar: as opposed to increase indent
Adams Rubble: ah, new to me
Fael Illyar: but since your version has comments already, you’ll have to use the increase indent
Faenik: why not?
Fael Illyar: for each log part
Then we begin to discuss time on a less global scale then mentioned earlier
Fael Illyar: change the 7AM to read 07:00 while you’re at it :)
Fael Illyar: oh right, speaking of that, I’ll change the tutorial that way
Adams Rubble: I have great problems compensating for SL time; I am going to ahve a terible time thinking in a 24 hour clock :)
Adams Rubble: 4 pm then becomes 1 pm and then that becomes 13 o’oclock
Fael Illyar: just think of AM to mean plus 0 hours and PM to mean plus 12 hours
Adams Rubble: easy for you to say :)
Adams Rubble: hehe
Fael Illyar: I don’t think of the meetings in terms of my local time usually.
Adams Rubble: Ah, I do
Fael Illyar: your time is +3 hours from SL time?
Adams Rubble: yes
Fael Illyar: ok then, AM is -3 hours and PM is +9 :)
Adams Rubble: we’ll see if I can remember that :)
Adams Rubble: that would make the 7 pm session at 19.00?
Fael Illyar: if it goes over 24, subtract 24 :)
Fael Illyar: yes
Adams Rubble: haha
Adams Rubble: It might be easier to remember 13:00 and 19:00 and forget all the math :)
Fael Illyar: Yes, it is :)
Fael Illyar: it’s a like a meeting number. not much different from 1,2,3,4 or a,b,c,d. just different markers
Adams Rubble: yes, it is
Fael Illyar: 1,7,13,19
Adams Rubble: ah
Faenik: indeed?
Adams Rubble: Maybe that should get written into the intriductory page of the blog :)
Fael Illyar: frontpage?
Adams Rubble: yes
Adams Rubble: for the times. Maybe in a parentheses after the 7,1,7,1
Fael Illyar: ah, there
Fael Illyar: yes, good idea
Adams Rubble: get us all used to thinking in those terms
Adams Rubble: I won;t have to worry about the 19:00; I’ll be asleep :)
Adams Rubble: OH, no, It’s the other way around isn;t it
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Adams Rubble: I’ll be asleep for the 1
Fael Illyar: let’s see, 13:00 one is the one you usually leave after 30 minutes
Fael Illyar: 19:00 is the one when I’m asleep and you seem to be there often
Adams Rubble: 19:00 is at my bed tiome but sometimes I stay up
Fael Illyar: 1:00, usually has Pema but is too early for you.
Fael Illyar: 7:00 we’re doing right now
Adams Rubble: Yes, the 7:00
Adams Rubble: Well, we managed to fill the second half hour with TIME :)
Fael Illyar: Yes, quite so :)
Adams Rubble: Would you like me to post the chat log?
Fael Illyar: I still have one to piece up from this morning :)
Fael Illyar: well, the part after Pema left
Adams Rubble: OK, I’ll do it then…good practive for tomorrow. I have to remember to deindent :)
Fael Illyar: the instructions are there. :)
Fael Illyar: I did some experimentation for the simplest possible process for doing it.
Adams Rubble: has a secret…she never reads instructions
Fael Illyar: and that’s in the tutorial
Adams Rubble: Yes, I promise to read it :)
Fael Illyar: maybe I should make another tutorial for people with clue that’s shorter and assumes they know something?
Adams Rubble: Don’t know the answer to that
Fael Illyar: otherwise these people likely won’t read it :)
Adams Rubble: thinks “like me”
Fael Illyar: I’d myself find it a bit bothersome to read a tutorial like the one I wrote :P
Adams Rubble: haha
I decide to share a tip about attachments that I learned last night at the Itsari Temple but find that Fael already knew about it
Fael Illyar: I don’t need to be explained where each button is.
Adams Rubble: Did you see my log this morning?
Fael Illyar: your blog?
Adams Rubble: yes
Fael Illyar: Yes
Adams Rubble: I went to the lecture last night as I said earlier
Adams Rubble: The instructor had an interesting tip for attachments
Adams Rubble: to think of them as a crying child
Adams Rubble: and notice them but sooth them
Fael Illyar: I think I’ve heard that somewhere
Adams Rubble: say “there there”
Adams Rubble: Ah, it was new to me
Fael Illyar: and come to think of it, that’s what I do to them
Faenik: why not?
Adams Rubble: I can’t wait to try it out
Adams Rubble: He actually used baby but it doesn;t work for babies
Adams Rubble: they just cry louder until they are fed or their diapers are changed :)
Adams Rubble: Well, I better go too…I promise to read the tutorial :)
Fael Illyar: :)
Fael Illyar: Ok, have fun :)
Adams Rubble: Well my office isn’t fun these days but I’ll try :)
Fael Illyar: Well, considering you managed it that well without tutorial, you probably can handle it. just look at the part 10. of the middle section
Fael Illyar: that’s not something you’ll notice yourself
Adams Rubble: OK. bye then for now :)
Fael Illyar: Bye :)
