2008.07.21 01:00 - Attaching to Meditation?

The Guardian for this Session was Fael Illyar. The comments are Fael's.

 When I arrived at the pavilion, Gaya and Meesha were already there. Bert arrived shortly after me.

Fael Illyar: Hi Gaya, Meesha
Gaya Ethaniel: Hi Fael
Faenik: why not?
Bertrum Quan: Hi everyone.
Gaya Ethaniel: Hi Bert
Bertrum Quan: Hi Gaya.
Meesha Cuttita: hi everyone, sorry i was afk
Gaya Ethaniel: np Meesha
Gaya Ethaniel: brb
Bertrum Quan: Hi Meesha
Meesha Cuttita: hi bertrum
Meesha Cuttita: nice to see you again, Fael
Meesha Cuttita: is pema coming?
Fael Illyar: You too Meesha :) Pema is likely sleeping right now.
Meesha Cuttita: :) ok
Faenik: なるほど^^
Bertrum Quan: Is there a topic someone wants to begin with?
Gaya Ethaniel: back
Bertrum Quan: Gaya is there a topic you would like to begin with?
Gaya Ethaniel: I'd like to listen today unless we have questions that relates to me directly if ok
Meesha Cuttita: do you have a topic, Bertrum?
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sorry brb
Fael Illyar: None of us seems to have a topic ready ... I guess I'll take a look at my notes.

After a while of silence and some impatient asking for a topic, Meesha brings up something.

Meesha Cuttita: well
Meesha Cuttita: there is one thing...
Faenik: ah :)
Bertrum Quan: Good!
Meesha Cuttita: the piece of mind you get in meditation, when the inner dialogue stops
Meesha Cuttita: peace of mind i mean
Meesha Cuttita: :)
Meesha Cuttita: the quietness, awareness
Meesha Cuttita: i find myself wanting to attach to it
Bertrum Quan: It?
Meesha Cuttita: like i feel aversion to "normal life"
Meesha Cuttita: yes, the peace, the emptiness
Fael Illyar: ah, I remember having that too.
Meesha Cuttita: do you have any advice?

I'd think this sort of attachment to meditation is quite common at the beginning.

Fael Illyar: I almost quit meditation because of that.
Bertrum Quan: That raises the question about what is "normal?"
Fael Illyar: I'd think in this case it means "anything else"
Meesha Cuttita: a part of me wants to go somewhere just immerse in this peace and completely stop all action
Bertrum Quan: Is it possible that we
Fael Illyar: wb Gaya
Bertrum Quan: have become removed from what is normal?
Gaya Ethaniel: thanks Fael
Meesha Cuttita: normal i mean having to communicate with people who love you, having to work for money, have all sorts of relationships
Bertrum Quan: that meditation brings us closer to it?
Meesha Cuttita: walking, talking nonsense, buying etc
Meesha Cuttita: i find myself being more peaceful than ever, but people around me don't seem to feel that, there's friction
Meesha Cuttita: they want the old me back
Fael Illyar: that is another want and should be accepted. Although I think a decision to not act upon it would be a good idea.
Fael Illyar: one of the traps I think.
Meesha Cuttita: yes, Fael, that makes so much sense
Meesha Cuttita: another grasping...
Bertrum Quan: What would they feel is missing in the "new" you?
Meesha Cuttita: endless chatting, going to sales, interest in "life"

Increased interest in nature, I wonder if this is a common theme as well. Seem plausible, all things considered.

Meesha Cuttita: instead i have this ovewhelming interest in nature
Fael Illyar: I find myself having increased interest of nature as well.
Meesha Cuttita: really ?
Fael Illyar: I had pretty close to none before.
Meesha Cuttita: well i liked it, but not like this :)
Bertrum Quan: Meesha, how do your friends relate to the natural world?
Meesha Cuttita: i feel trapped when i have to work all day
Meesha Cuttita: some find it ok, others are more fascinated in shoes
Faenik: indeed?
Fael Illyar: are you trying to resist the want to see the nature when working?
Meesha Cuttita: well it's more like wanting to resist this way of life altogether
Meesha Cuttita: i see no point
Meesha Cuttita: working, earning, spending, working, earning.......
Fael Illyar: that's also an attachment
Meesha Cuttita: how?
Fael Illyar: does it cause you restlessness or discomfort?
Meesha Cuttita: sadness
Meesha Cuttita: yearning
Bertrum Quan: It seems you want to be more aware. How can that be less that good!
Bertrum Quan: than
Meesha Cuttita: perhaps the doors to my cage have been open all along
Fael Illyar: Bertrum, any want, if it becomes an attachment ...
Meesha Cuttita: yes, i know what you both mean
Meesha Cuttita: i can't seem to find the balance
Meesha Cuttita: the middle way
Meesha Cuttita: from aversion straight into attachment
Bertrum Quan: AS you've said, the cage door has been open all of the time!
Meesha Cuttita: so also attachment to awareness is possible
Fael Illyar: it's a sort of pendulum like thing at first.

I was thinking of a pendulum swinging, first this way, then that way and then back...

Meesha Cuttita: i'm glad to find you understand and it's not an uncommon phenomenon
Bertrum Quan: Not uncommon at all!
Fael Illyar: just be aware of the attachments you have :)
Meesha Cuttita: allright! :)
Meesha Cuttita: sounds fun
Meesha Cuttita: oh but there seem to be so manyyy
Fael Illyar: if you feel there's something you can't stand or have no choice but to do, that's an attachment.

Caspian arrives.

Caspian Inglewood takes a humble bow
Fael Illyar: Hello Caspian
Meesha Cuttita: hi caspian
Caspian Inglewood: ty
Bertrum Quan: Hi Caspian.
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_ metta
Bertrum Quan: Meesha, I'm very interested in the metaphor you've described
Meesha Cuttita: which one?
Bertrum Quan: IThe idea of the cage door open all of the time...
Meesha Cuttita: yes, it came through my mind that it might be that
Meesha Cuttita: i might be keeping myself stuck in some idea
Meesha Cuttita: while really i can look at it from a different perspective
Meesha Cuttita: or from an impartial, outer perspective of awareness
Faenik: could be
Fael Illyar: Yes, like animal in a cage that is so used to being in the cage that it doesn't try to leave even if you leave the door open. That's the norm in today's society I guess.
Meesha Cuttita: yes, i think it is
Meesha Cuttita: we are used to being trapped
Meesha Cuttita: so even if we get out of the cage, we come back into it at the end of the day
Meesha Cuttita: it is safer
Meesha Cuttita: from what i have no idea
Fael Illyar: if feels safer.
Meesha Cuttita: yes
Fael Illyar: it's familiar
Meesha Cuttita: yes
Meesha Cuttita: the sense of self we create , even if we manage to see it's all amde up of nothing, we still assume that old personality
Meesha Cuttita: *made
Caspian Inglewood: mind can make cage or no cage :-)
Bertrum Quan: But your attraction to the natural world is in part a path to deeper awareness---both out in the world and inside your mind
Meesha Cuttita: i suppose nature fills me with energy

I have to wonder if this energy is something that comes when you're free of attachments, regardless of the circumstances. Nature could do it if you associate it with having no worries or fears or duties.

Fael Illyar: Caspian, yes, that's the gist of it :)
Meesha Cuttita: and energy is needed to generate awareness
Bertrum Quan: Absolutely!
Meesha Cuttita: mind makes everything, yes
Meesha Cuttita: but most of the time, mind drains me of energy with its formations
Caspian Inglewood: yes
Meesha Cuttita: and i find myself trapped in the mental patterns
Fael Illyar: yes, the chains you've created tend to sap your energy.
Meesha Cuttita: so to be able to see the mind, i have to be strong enough
Caspian Inglewood: but clarity mind is always there Meesha
Meesha Cuttita: yes
Meesha Cuttita: yes, it is
Fael Illyar: Gaya, this reminds me of your remark yesterday of me being clear minded even when tired. I'd become even more tired if I wasn't.
Meesha Cuttita: its subtle though
Meesha Cuttita: and the dialogue is coarser and louder
Faenik: could be
Caspian Inglewood: well, it is there; just that clear mind also mis sometimes muddy
Meesha Cuttita: the dialogue, the formations get my attention first
Gaya Ethaniel remembers that being tired didn't seem to affect Fael's clear mindness
Faenik: なるほど^^
Fael Illyar: meditation is a way to silence the dialogue so you can really hear.
Meesha Cuttita: attachment works everywhere i suppose
Meesha Cuttita: even at subtle levels
Fael Illyar: yes, you can be attached to anything.
Meesha Cuttita: wow
Fael Illyar: anyhow
Fael Illyar: it's like you're cleaning your house but more things to clean up keep turning up all the time.

I bring up the comparison to cleaning your house again. That's a chore that never ends either.

Meesha Cuttita: exactly like this
Fael Illyar: you can never stop cleaning
Meesha Cuttita: i wish it were more simple
Meesha Cuttita: this is my friend Arri
Fael Illyar suddenly realizes similarities with her mental "cleaning" and cleaning her house.

Arri arrives. A new participant it seemed, so I moved my attention to introduction. What I was going to remark about the similarity with my mental "cleaning" and cleaning my house is that my strategy with both has long been to simply not make a mess in the first place.

Arri Lane: Hi all
Meesha Cuttita: He is also interested in meditation
Meesha Cuttita: I invited him
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_ metta
Arri Lane: Thanks Meesha
Fael Illyar: Hello Arri, welcome :)
Arri Lane: sorry
Arri Lane: I didnt rez
Bertrum Quan: Hi Arri
Caspian Inglewood: do not wish for perfect anything, in perfection is greed, pride and wanting; make medicine from suffering
Faenik loves wells!
Caspian Inglewood: this will lead to maybe being okay
Caspian Inglewood: Hi Arri
Meesha Cuttita: thank you, Caspian, that sounds like a very wise advice
Arri Lane: Hi Caspian...thanks for letting me join you today
Caspian Inglewood takes a humble bow
Fael Illyar: Are you familiar with our group, Arri?
Arri Lane: I'm not...no
Arri Lane: if you have a card...that would be great
Arri Lane: info...etc

So, I finally went and copy&pasted our Play as Being in a Nutshell wiki page into a notecard and gave that to Arri.

Fael Illyar: I guess it's time to finally transform the wiki page into notecard.
Arri Lane: lol
Caspian Inglewood: Fael, may I make short announcement at conclusion of meeting?
Arri Lane accepted your inventory offer.
Fael Illyar: Caspian, it's hard to know exactly whento conclusion is but I guess it's dependant on the announcement. Could you IM it to me first?
Caspian Inglewood: it is about a new strip club, Fael
Caspian Inglewood: lol, trust me, not bad

Interestingly, I was simultaneously amused with the relevance of stripping to the topic but my reaction to the literal reading was stronger so I didn't manage to take that as a joke. Another attachment to strip I guess :)

Fael Illyar: I'm not sure strip clubs is a suitable announcement for this meeting.
Caspian Inglewood: that was joke...
Caspian Inglewood: nevermind, will just contact members individually
Caspian Inglewood: no problem
Fael Illyar: Well, I suppose what you IMd me is ok.
Fael Illyar: just try to keep some limit on the jokes. :)
Meesha Cuttita: lol
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Caspian Inglewood: always an order, why not let red be red?
Fael Illyar: It's a request, not an order.
Faenik: why not?
Gaya Ethaniel smiles again
Fael Illyar: It's good to be careful with the jokes. People might believe them.
Caspian Inglewood: because the request became so strange, I did in private
Meesha Cuttita: strip club is a good idea though
Meesha Cuttita: only we wouldn't be stripping ourselves of clothes
Meesha Cuttita: but of defilements, lol

I'm now suddenly wondering if I should have pointed out defilements being a wrong word choice here.

Arri Lane: lol
Fael Illyar: well, it's got that side to it, yes :)
Meesha Cuttita: let's see who can take more off, lol
Bertrum Quan: The metaphor of subtraction!
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Bertrum Quan: I'd like to ask as question about the attraction to nature that Meesha mentioned earlier...
Caspian Inglewood: Please excuse, i have more pressing matters to attend
Fael Illyar: See you later Caspian :)
Caspian Inglewood takes a humble bow
Meesha Cuttita: bye caspian
Arri Lane: bye
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_ metta

Caspian leaves. Bertrum brings up an interesting question.

Bertrum Quan: Do these marvelous sims in SL help us focus on the natural world?
Arri Lane: hmm
Arri Lane: I'm afraid to answer that
Meesha Cuttita: i don't think so
Arri Lane: good question
Faenik: why not?
Meesha Cuttita: you don't get the energy of it, no smells, souns are not there
Fael Illyar: sounds could be
Meesha Cuttita: ok
Fael Illyar: Take a look at Moon's sim, Hikari :)
Arri Lane: I'll have to write that down
Arri Lane: Hikari
Meesha Cuttita: but here you are hunched in your chair, focusing your eyes on the keyboard and the screen
Meesha Cuttita: i don't see how that could compare to say, walking in a forest
Meesha Cuttita: or walking into water

I tend to consider these things mostly mental myself but I refrained from rejecting the idea for some reason.

Fael Illyar: but there are sounds of nature coming from outside this room.
Fael Illyar: (in RL that is, my case)
Meesha Cuttita: yes here too
Arri Lane: This is in fact still very new and as the technology expands...we might get closer...but I'm afriad it can sperate us from nature if not careful
Meesha Cuttita: but being in SL i think uses a lot of your mental energy, while being in nature fills up your whole body
Meesha Cuttita: sure mental energy can help generate images
Meesha Cuttita: but i don't know how that helps the integrity, wholeness of a human being
Bertrum Quan: I was thinking about reminders... and Arri's point also relates to how the modern "everyday" life separates us from our very nature--the natural mind.
Gaya Ethaniel feels that the nature is inside her

Gaya's comment made me feel like she's also of the mind that these things are mental.

Arri Lane: we are nature
Arri Lane: aren't we?
Meesha Cuttita: we should be walking on grass, leaping from stone to stone, hanging on branches :))) here we are typing words about that
Meesha Cuttita: it is only my fingers and eyes that are active now
Meesha Cuttita: my body isn't doing anything except supporting my hands and head
Gaya Ethaniel feels the nature outside her
Fael Illyar: It's only your mind that's active or not, always.
Meesha Cuttita: :))
Meesha Cuttita: yes, but a healthy body helps
Fael Illyar: it does, yes
Arri Lane: good point Meesha
Meesha Cuttita: it is the unity of body and mind that is this human form
Meesha Cuttita: imagine evolution from here onwards
Bertrum Quan: Yes, but we are part of the natural world. This typing or computer screen is not substitute for being outside in the sunshine.... but yes, we are focusing on the integration of body and mind.
Meesha Cuttita: from computer users to what?
Meesha Cuttita: what kind of beings will human kind evolve into?
Meesha Cuttita: most of our relationships formed online?

What will happen will happen, unhappiness is not accepting it.

Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Gaya Ethaniel wonders how that matters to Meesha
Bertrum Quan: Taken from the opposite perspective, what would we see from Being's perspective?
Fael Illyar: computers are becoming integrated with us. It won't be long until we won't even know what it's to be without one.
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_ metta
Gaya Ethaniel wishes everyone good day and leave quietly
Arri Lane: Bye Gaya
Bertrum Quan: Bye Gaya

Gaya leaves.

Meesha Cuttita: hm, somehow it feels that computers focus our attention in the mind, in the head
Meesha Cuttita: and we are more and more detached from being in the body
Meesha Cuttita: maybe that's why i feel drawn to nature lately
Bertrum Quan: I agree Meesha.
Fael Illyar: yes, computers are for processing information. They move the focus to that.
Arri Lane: I could lead you in a meditation that focused on the body.....however
Arri Lane: for what its worth...lol
Meesha Cuttita: i'd like that
Fael Illyar: Zen meditation focuses on neither, not the mind nor the body.
Fael Illyar: nothing

Here's my roundabout attempt at hinting that it might be good not to assume mind resides just in the head.

Arri Lane: true Fael
Meesha Cuttita: doesn't it focus on the breath?
Bertrum Quan: Arri, do give us the example.
Fael Illyar: perhaps at the beginning to help get started
Arri Lane: Well
Arri Lane: SL is facilitated by the computer
Arri Lane: and it allows you to communicate with me
Arri Lane: from wherever you are
Faenik loves wells!
Arri Lane: and could in fact
Arri Lane: do a visualized meditation that focuses you on body
Arri Lane: to bring you back into your body and out of your mind
Meesha Cuttita: sounds good
Arri Lane: so...the computer has helped me facilitatethat
Arri Lane: did I just do a typo?
Arri Lane: lol
Meesha Cuttita: oh yes, i agree, if wisely used, the computer can do wonders
Fael Illyar: It's a tool. It all depends on how we use it.
Meesha Cuttita: yes, a tool
Fael Illyar: some people use hammers and hit their thumbs half the time.
Meesha Cuttita: hahaha
Arri Lane: that would be me
Fael Illyar: but we still use hammers :)
Meesha Cuttita: :)
Bertrum Quan: Arri, were you going to discuss your process further?
Arri Lane: well
Arri Lane: I've been awake for about 15 min
Arri Lane: mind is still coming into focus
Arri Lane: do you have a question that would help me elaborate?
Bertrum Quan: I think I understood the point you were making. I wasn't sure if you'd had the opportunity to finish...
Arri Lane: oh yes....I hope people understood my point...and yes I feel I was allowed to finish...thanks for asking
Arri Lane: thats important in these chats...
Meesha Cuttita: yes
Bertrum Quan: Yes, I enjoy the opportunity (despite the late hour here, But I am tired now! So I'm going to have to log off,
Meesha Cuttita: well have a good rest
Arri Lane: nice to meet you Bertrum...more to come I hope
Meesha Cuttita: thank you
Bertrum Quan: Goodnight (day) everyone.
Fael Illyar: Good night Bert :)
Meesha Cuttita: night
Meesha Cuttita: do you want to visit Caspian's place?

I didn't get a proper IM about the temple or it's location. I wonder if Caspian was offended.

Arri Lane: I have a minute Meesha...sure
Arri Lane: can someone invite me to group?
Fael Illyar: Arri, one question just to make sure. You don't mind your lines and name being included in the meeting log that'll be published on our blog, do you?
Arri Lane: oh no
Arri Lane: its fine
Arri Lane: I'll have to visit
Faenik: ah :)
Meesha Cuttita: i don't know how to invite you
Fael Illyar: Ah, we don't have a group for people who only attend meetings.
Arri Lane: I see
Arri Lane: Ill read more of the notecard...visit the blog...etc
Meesha Cuttita: and the meetings are still held twice daily>?
Arri Lane: to learn more
Fael Illyar: the meetings are every day. 1am,7am,1pm,7pm SLT.
Meesha Cuttita: 1pm and 5 pm?
Fael Illyar: 4 a day.
Meesha Cuttita: oh
Arri Lane: good amount
Meesha Cuttita: ok, well thank you for the advice you gave me today, Fael, it was very helpful
Fael Illyar: You're welcome :)
Meesha Cuttita: see you again
Meesha Cuttita: bye now
Arri Lane: Meesha...
Arri Lane: I thought she wanted me to go with her...lol
Arri Lane: of there she is
Arri Lane: Fael...thanks for your time
Arri Lane: we will meet again I'm sure
Arri Lane: have a wonderful day
Arri Lane: bye
Fael Illyar: I
Fael Illyar: I attend these meetings often :)
Fael Illyar: See you later :)
Arri Lane: smiles
Arri Lane: k

With this, the meeting ended.