2008.07.23 13:00 - Newcomers and experienced folks - and me

Quilty Bookmite was the guardian and the comments are his.

i arrive at the same time as someone I haven't met and it turns out that it is his first visit to our chats

Starseed Xue: hello
Quilty: Hi Starseed
Quilty: i don't think we've met before.
Starseed Xue: no
Starseed Xue: this is my first time
Quilty: OK. I've only been coming here for a few weeks.
Quilty: this is my first time as host/guardian.
Starseed Xue: ah ok
Quilty: So, how did you find this group?
Moon Fargis is Offline
Quilty: and how much do you know about it?
Starseed Xue: i forget the name
Quilty: OK. :-)

Rajah flies in

Quilty: hi Rajah.
Starseed Xue: hello rajah
Rajah Yalin: hi Quilt hi Star
Starseed Xue: rajah, one of your neighbors invited me here
Rajah Yalin: nice
Rajah Yalin: which one if it isnt quilt?
Starseed Xue: i cant remember the name
Starseed Xue: i think he was a founder
Quilty: Well, whoever it was, you are most welcome.
Rajah Yalin: Pema?
Starseed Xue: no, that doesnt sound familiar
Fael Illyar: Hi Quilty, Rajah, Starseed

Fael arrives followed by Storm who appears and disappears again

Starseed Xue: hello fael
Rajah Yalin: hi fFAEL
Quilty: Hi Fael.
Quilty: Hi Storm.
Rajah Yalin: I DONt see him
Quilty: Hmmm. I thought I saw Storm.
Fael Illyar: Hi Storm :)
Quilty: I did. I did see Storm.
Storm Nordwind: Hi. Had to relog
Quilty: hi Storm.
Rajah Yalin: need to put my handy dandy radar on
Rajah Yalin: hi Storm
Faenik: why not?
Rajah Yalin: all better now
Quilty: may as well have a coffee. i feel like I need one.
Quilty: Does anyone have a particular topic to discuss? Or would Starseed like us to explain what this is all about?
Rajah Yalin: hi Gaya
Quilty: Hi Gaya
Fael Illyar: Hi Gaya :)
Starseed Xue: something breif would be nice
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Quilty: As a relative newcomer in the presence of much more experience, would someone else like to give a rundown?
Gaya Ethaniel 's family peering over her shoulders waving hi
Rajah Yalin: hi Gayas family
Storm Nordwind thinks there is no better way to get experience than to jump in! ;)
Quilty: hi all the Ethaniels. :-)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Quilty: *jumps in*

and so, feeling a little out of my depth, I take the plunge and explain basically PaB as I see it.

Quilty: Well, the group is called Play As being. It has it's own website, which I will get in a moment...
Quilty: My laptop doesn't like running SL and my browser at the same time. :-)

Seems to lack the memory to handle two such large programs so takes ages to run up a browser. Fortunately, Fael is somewhat quicker than me.

Quilty: The concept is to just stop for 9 seconds every 15 minutes during your day.
Quilty: There are different explainations of what that means but basically I think it is to come back to yourself. Stop being distracted by what is going on around you.
Gaya Ethaniel: hm... nice tea
Quilty: As a Buddhist I tend to draw parallels to meditation but not everyone in the group has Buddhist connections.
Fael Illyar: http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/ and a new wiki that is being built http://playasbeing.wik.is/
Quilty: Thank you Fael.
Starseed Xue: ok, i will read later
Starseed Xue: thanks
Quilty: It is something of an experiment.
Quilty: Sitting here, you should hear a bell every 15 minutes. You cna use that as your timer while here. :-)
Quilty: have i covered the basics?

Only Faenik breaks the silence here and seems to confirm that I have covered the basics. :-)

Faenik: ah :)
Starseed Xue: how long
Starseed Xue: how many intervals
Quilty: During the day?
Starseed Xue: how many times will you ring the bell
Faenik: why not?
Quilty: Every 15 minutes. I won't ring it. It does that itself.
Quilty: I just heard it.
Fael Illyar didn't but that's because the bell from her own systems is much louder.
Quilty: 9 seconds I think is roughly the time you hear the bell ring.
Quilty: By the way, Starseed. These chats are logged on the website. Do you have any objection to your words being posted there?
Starseed Xue: Nope
Quilty: Good. thank you.
Rajah Yalin: ergh!!
Quilty: Ergh?
Quilty: Are you OK Rajah?

It seems Rajah is not OK. What follows is my clumsy attempts to offer advice to someone who is obviously deeply troubled, plus some helpful comments from others.

Faenik: ah :)
Rajah Yalin: I'm not going to blame my idiocy on other people
Fael Illyar: That's a good policy but what idiocy do you mean?
Quilty: Or yourself, I hope?
Rajah Yalin: who could it be
Rajah Yalin: promises are so strong and end that way when you break them
Storm Nordwind sympathises
Fael Illyar: but yes, it's better to not blame. That never accomplishes anything.
Faenik: why not?
Starseed Xue: brb
Quilty: OK.
Quilty: Do you want to say more Rajah?
Rajah Yalin: I can honestly say this is the 1st time I've felt this way in years
Quilty: How do you feel?
Rajah Yalin: I'm not sure if its angry or depressed, 2 emotions I ridded myself of I thought
Rajah Yalin: or both
Quilty: I know Zen monks who have trained for years and still not completely rid themselves of anger.
Quilty: Anger arises by itself. It's how you deal with it that makes the difference. Same with depression.
Rajah Yalin: maybe that is it I've simply known how to deal with it until now
Rajah Yalin shrugs.
Rajah Yalin: talking you do feel better thogh so it helps
Quilty: Do you know what has changed so that you don't know how to deal with it? Is it too strong?
Faenik: could be
Rajah Yalin: one sec

One sec turns into a long wait and I hope that Rajah is OK as the conversation moves on.

Faenik: could be
Storm Nordwind observes that it now takes nearly a full 15 minutes to experience Seeing as Being and write a blog entry. And then the bell goes again!
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Quilty: :-)
Cousin Gabe is Online
Starseed Xue: im back
Quilty: WB Starseed.
Starseed Xue: ty
Gaya Ethaniel: wb Star
Starseed Xue: ty =D
Quilty: Do you have some sort of meditation practice yourself, Star?
Faenik: why not?
Starseed Xue: im still a novice
Starseed Xue: usually i will focus on my breathing
Starseed Xue: sometimes i just focus on the sounds around me
Quilty: Have you been taught this?
Starseed Xue: self taught

Good meditation instruction is not always available. this shouldn't stop us trying by ourselves.

Quilty: Well, it sounds like a good practice to me.
Starseed Xue: i enjoy it

Sky appears and disappears and the conversation naturally lulls.

Fael Illyar: Hi Sky
Quilty: hi Sky.
Faenik loves wells!
Storm Nordwind waves
Faenik waves back.
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Quilty: waves as well. :-)
Quilty: Looks like Sky has gone again.
Fael Illyar: looked to me like she perhaps crashed.
Fael Illyar: or teleport failed badly enough that it forced logout.
Gaya Ethaniel: poor Sky
Faenik: why not?

so I try to get back to the subject.

Quilty: Anyway. :-) Star, enjoyment sounds like a good basis for keeping meditation going.
Quilty: I sometimes enjoy it. I did all the time when I started. :-)
Quilty: Except for the pain in my legs, but I sorted that out.
Quilty: I guess one advantage of 9 second meditation is no pain in the legs or anywhere. :-)
Fael Illyar: I feel to talk about enjoying meditation is a bit off. I don't tend to have feelings while doing it.

Fael's comment suprises me. I hadn't thought about meditation as something that mustn't be enjoyed. I wasn't quite sure how to respond.

Storm Nordwind: That depends on how long you spend writing about it afterwards!
Starseed Xue: i feel at peace
Quilty: I'm sorry Fael. Do you feel it shouldn't be enjoyed?
Fael Illyar: enjoyment might distract
Quilty: Meditation can be such a serious business.
Fael Illyar: yes, it might do that too.
Fael Illyar: Myself, I do it for the short term practical gains. Such as feeling more clear headed afterwards. More aware.
Gaya Ethaniel: brb
Quilty: Fael, do you do meditation for longer than the 9 seconds?
Fael Illyar: Yes, 10-20 minutes, Zen style I think.
Quilty: OK.
Fael Illyar: I start with breathing but that might not be necessary anymore and it seems I sometimes forget it too.
Starseed Xue: how long have you been practicng?
Fael Illyar: 7 weeks
Quilty: Personally, I think if I took it too seriously, trying to do up to 40 minute meditaiton periods on retreat, I would have given up years ago.
Fael Illyar: I do it if I feel like it
Fael Illyar: in addition to PaBs every 15 minutes
Fael Illyar: not every day but close
Faenik: why not?
Fael Illyar: more likely if I'm feeling disturbed by something.
Rajah Yalin: UGH!!!!
Fael Illyar: it's useful for those days :)
Gaya Ethaniel: back
Quilty: I guess I have different aims with meditation. Less practical ones maybe. :-)
Fael Illyar: wb Gaya
Quilty: WB Gaya.
Fael Illyar: I don't think the practical ones really count as aims :)
Gaya Ethaniel thanks friends
Quilty: Just meeting immediate needs?
Fael Illyar: yes
Fael Illyar: for PaBs I don't have even immediate needs as the aim. Just a vague idea that they're good to do.
Fael Illyar: I actually spent 2 days without doing them and somehow couldn't resist setting up the bells at my sisters place where I'm this week.

It intrigues me that we may all being trying to do the same thing but for very different reasons, so I ask a general question.

Quilty: What do other people think? Why do people do PaB? Or even meditation?
Quilty: For myself, I'm not sure I can say why. Like Fael, it just feels good to do, although i can see that there is a deeper purpose, I'm just not sure exactly what it is.
Faenik: could be
Fael Illyar: I want to do those for a reason or another.
Gaya Ethaniel: I guess I'm looking for useful tools that enable me to find Being, ie PaB or meditation
Faenik: ah :)
Storm Nordwind: It may sound trite, but I am interested in all things that can relieve the suffering of others. I have understood that the best way I can do that in the long run is to go flat out for enlightenment myself - seemingly a contradiction but it is the way I do things.
Starseed Xue: i think i meditate for mental discipline, an unruly mind can lead to an unruly life
Fael Illyar: You need to understand yourself before you can understand others
Quilty: I don't think that is a contradiction. Seems like the Mahayana way.
Storm Nordwind: The 'flat out' bit is regarded by some people as a contradiction :)
Quilty: That may be. :-)
Quilty: i was wondering which bit you thought was the contradition.
Storm Nordwind: It is not a contradiction to me. I am just aware others see it so. They see the calm and poise of a meditation and cannot reconcile the headlong rush toward enlightenment that can actually be possible
Fael Illyar doesn't see a rush.
Quilty: Dogen said train like your hair is on fire. :-)

And so he does, or a rough translation of what he said. I feel that there are two sides to this. In Buddhism meditation is something to be done with a certain amount of purpose and urgency. However, the goal of enlightenment itself is not something that can be achieved by grasping after it, or it can "slip through your fingers like water".

Storm Nordwind smiles
Storm Nordwind: Sounds good to me
Starseed Xue: after meditating, do others find most thoughts to be somewhat useless?
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Fael Illyar: I don't see myself rushing. It might be rushing at me though.
Gaya Ethaniel understand Fael somewhat
Quilty: In what sense useless, Star?
Storm Nordwind: I find, Star, that I have the thoughts I want to have, and no more.
Starseed Xue: i think i would prefer a state of no thought
Starseed Xue: just pure awareness
Quilty: My meditation teacher likened meditation to sitting under a bridge with traffic rushing past over your head.
Quilty: Once you stop meditating, you can find yourself drawn back into the traffic.
Quilty: Which I guess seems pretty senseless.
Storm Nordwind: Then why stop? ;)
Quilty: I suppose to eat and drink, sleep and move about. :-)

I am talking about meditation in the literal sense here of sitting down ina meditative pose and doing it. Storm is talking about the mind of meditation as we will see.

Storm Nordwind: Can you not do those things and meditate too?
Quilty: Or you could prop your head up Sessin style and not sleep for a week. :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: I think it's also important not to use meditation as an escape from reality
Quilty: i think eventually you can, yes.
Quilty: I agree Gaya.
Starseed Xue: meditation is getting in touch with reality
Quilty: I think it can bring you closer to reality.

At this point, Rajah is back with us.

Rajah Yalin: friends
Quilty: Well said Star. :-)
Storm Nordwind: Some people find that mindfulness is a stat for them. Others use meditation techniques that are... 'portable'
Quilty: Yes Rajah.
Storm Nordwind: *start
Starseed Xue: Rajah, are you ok today?
Rajah Yalin: in an odd state of mind, I'd like to be in no mind :)
Quilty: Rajah, I am aware that you seem to be deeply troubled. I wasn't intending to ignore you. Just to give you time to speak.
Rajah Yalin: oh it is alright Quilt
Starseed Xue: care to share anything, Rajah?
Rajah Yalin: I have been thinking (for once) and I guess self control is not an easy thing
Quilty: Did you ever think it was?
Rajah Yalin: well
Rajah Yalin: I've been given temptation like this before, I think everyone has but I don't think I've ever carried out on anything like this
Quilty: Rajah, in the brief time I have spoken to you, you seem like a compassionate person. Perhaps what you need to feel most right now is compassion for yourself and recognise that you are only a human being.
Rajah Yalin: yes I can understand that, at times I am a little too humble
Quilty: it'salso natural to feel guilty about our actions. But it's not a useful emotion. If you feel you have made a mistake, it's better to just note it and move on, resolving to learn from it.
Quilty: easier said than done, I know. :-)
Storm Nordwind: I think regret is a useful emotion. Guilt, I think, is not, as it just seems like anger directed at oneself.
Quilty: Thank you Storm. You express it much better than me. :-)
Faenik: why not?
Quilty: Unfortunately, I have to go soon. We are already well over the hour.
Quilty: Rajah, I hope you manage to deal with what is bothering you.
Fael Illyar: what would regret be, exactly?

Maybe another time we can find out what Storm means by regret as opposed to guilt.

Rajah Yalin: thanks Quilt
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Moon Fargis is Online
Rajah Yalin: I am working on it :)
Quilty: I am taking the log for this session, so if someone wants to send me the rest of the session please do.
Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Quilty :)
Storm Nordwind: I must also go too now
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Starseed Xue: nice meeting you
Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Storm :)
Storm Nordwind: Thank you for hosting! :)
Quilty: You too Star. Hope to see you again.
Rajah Yalin: take care you two
Storm Nordwind: Namaste

And so I had to leave. I don't know if there was much to follow this. If there was and someone has the chat log, please send it to me and I can add it to what I have.

I enjoyed my first shot at guardianship and will hopefully do many more in the future.

 In Gassho,

Quilty.