2008.07.18 13:00 - To Beer or Not To Beer?

The Guardian for this meeting was Solobill Laville. The comments are Solobill's.

I actually was the first to the Pavilion today, the first time that has happened for as long as I can remember...(So this bears the obvious question about my punctuality.)

    Fael Illyar: Hi Solo
    Solobill Laville: Fael, hello!
    Solobill Laville: How are you?
    Fael Illyar: I'm good, you?
    Solobill Laville: Good, good, busy RL...but it seems many are :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, mine is starting to feel busy too :)
    Fael Illyar: I finally realized what was causing me to feel stressed
    Solobill Laville: What was it, the cause?
    Fael Illyar: I've started a mental transformation in how I do things.
    Solobill Laville: Really? Go on please...
    Fael Illyar: I was aware that I should change something but what I wasn't aware of was that I was very actively changing it too :)
    Solobill Laville: Was this "something" external to you, internal? Both?
    Fael Illyar: internal in that it's me who's doing it
    Fael Illyar: I'm not changing as response to external pressure.
    Solobill Laville: Wow. So was there a connection to being aware that you should change to then actually changing it, albeit subconsciously?
    Fael Illyar: oh wait, it's partially that too
    Faenik: ah :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I think I've been doing a lot of subconscious changes over the years.
    Solobill Laville: That is really very interested, and quite cool too.
    Solobill Laville: In a similar, but opposite way
    Solobill Laville: I find some of these subconscious things
    Solobill Laville: are actually built by myself to
    Solobill Laville: it seems to me
    Solobill Laville: trip myself up
    Fael Illyar: this one certainly is built by me :)
    Fael Illyar: some sort of decision at some point that if I see a change that is necessary, it will happen with no mercy :P
    Fael Illyar: Hi Adams :)
    Solobill Laville: Through dogged effort!

Adams joined us, with some immediate PaB wiki needs.

    Solobill Laville: Hi Adams!
    Adams Rubble: Hi Fael :)
    Adams Rubble: Hi Bill :)
    Adams Rubble: I need some help from Fael
    Fael Illyar: Yes?
    Adams Rubble: I finally have the long log from this morning ready
    Adams Rubble: You said no formatting on log
    Adams Rubble: That doesn't include the paragraphs right?
    Adams Rubble: actually I mistated that
    Fael Illyar: you mean the blockquotes that separate the comments and the log?
    Adams Rubble: Yes with the black lines down the left side
    Fael Illyar: yes, those stay, in addition, only the first line should be italicised
    Adams Rubble: I'm crashing it seems
    Adams Rubble: I'll be back in a bit if I do. Please ignore me :)
    Fael Illyar: ok :)
    Solobill Laville: Good luck Adams
    Solobill Laville: Fael, I think a side effect of practice, PaB or otherwise
    Solobill Laville: Is the enhanced ability to see myself from the outside
    Solobill Laville: And I can see these little self-build roadblocks
    Fael Illyar: Anyway, the current change I'm doing. So far I've been keeping my "wants" in check by somehow stopping wanting things. Don't ask me how but the side effect is that I had quite some problems staying motivated.
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Fael Illyar: even with things I needed to stay motivated with
    Fael Illyar: or wanted
    Fael Illyar: So after realizing that, I've been changing.
    Fael Illyar: I stopped suppressing my wants and I'm now controlling them with a less familiar technique of letting go the attachment to those
    Solobill Laville: ah
    Solobill Laville: Now I'm with you
    Solobill Laville: The "letting go" is much more familiar to me
    Fael Illyar: And that's putting things upside down.
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Solobill Laville: I can see how suppressing things could be potentially troublesome perhaps
    Fael Illyar: If I slip in letting the attachments go...
    Fael Illyar: that is forget it for a while. It's rather uncomfortable
    Solobill Laville: Why do you think that is?
    Fael Illyar: there is way more of them than I have time for :P
    Solobill Laville: :))
    Fael Illyar: anyway but the main thing that was causing a problem of sort was that some part of me was resisting the change too
    Solobill Laville: So, to make sure I understand,
    Solobill Laville: This would be the change from suppressing to letting go?
    Fael Illyar: yes
    Solobill Laville: Wow - that is a great change!

Sky joined us.

    Fael Illyar: Hi Sky
    Solobill Laville: Hello, Sky!
    Sky Szimmer: hi guys!
    Solobill Laville: We were just talking about the change from suppressing things to letting go
    Solobill Laville: An interesting aspect, maybe, is that by supressing, they are still there
    Solobill Laville: letting go severs the attachment
    Fael Illyar: I think the main reason for why I seem to be advancing fast might be this unconscious process that is pushing the changes.
    Solobill Laville: Can you expand on that Fael?
    Fael Illyar: I'm not sure how to expand on it :)
    Fael Illyar: but it does mean that if there is something I think needs changing, it's getting pushed in that direction constantly.
    Faenik: ????^^
    Solobill Laville: So, being an unconscious process, it has more power to affect change
    Solobill Laville: Than a conscious process
    Solobill Laville: I wonder why that is...
    Fael Illyar: subconscious is a bigger part of the mind
    Solobill Laville: But we become much more aware of it, through paying attention
    Solobill Laville: Or practicing, or whatever anyone would want to call it
    Solobill Laville: I'm much more aware of that through paring away the other "buzzing"
    Faenik loves wells!
    Fael Illyar: I've been pushing a lot of things to my subconscious to handle during the years.

We attempt to unpack this idea of awareness of our own subconscious processes.

    Sky Szimmer: how does one know about subconscous processing?
    Fael Illyar: I've long felt it's a sort of automated part of my mind that can do things without requiring my constant concentration.
    Sky Szimmer: then does it bubble into the conscious again?
    Fael Illyar: yes, at some point
    Solobill Laville: I don't feel personally to know much about my subconscious processing, per se
    Fael Illyar: I treat it as a sort of black box that does what I want :P
    Solobill Laville: But I can see the outputs that my "me" - ego - does to
    Solobill Laville: act as a gremlin
    Solobill Laville: sounds dark
    Solobill Laville: but really it is - I think - my ego fighting for survival
    Fael Illyar: black box as in box with something in it that does things but not visible what
    Solobill Laville: BF Skinner used to call the decision-making part of our mind a "black box"
    Faenik: could be
    Solobill Laville: because no one can really know what is going on there, at least in other's...
    Fael Illyar: ah yes, I tend to think it's my subconscious that does those
    Fael Illyar: I look at all kinds of information about the possible choices and eventually I just pick which feels right.
    Fael Illyar: it usually is too
    Fael Illyar: but I don't do that fast
    Fael Illyar: unless necessary
    Solobill Laville: That's a gift some people don't have, Fael!
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Fael Illyar likes to think they're just not using it.
    Faenik: ah :)
    Sky Szimmer: you think Solo?
    Adams Rubble: Whew. back --now to see what has been said
    Solobill Laville: Let me put it this way -
    Sky Szimmer: i tend to think we all have intuition but we may not listen to it
    Solobill Laville: some people stand in their own way
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I often see people standing in their own way. It's depressing to watch.
    Faenik: indeed?
    Sky Szimmer: why is it depressing?
    Fael Illyar: well ... at least it was.
    Solobill Laville: Being aware of the possibility of standing in my own way, helps to realize how much I actually do
    Fael Illyar: I guess the thing that is pushing this change might actually be a solid decision to not stand in my own way.
    Sky Szimmer: what does that mean Solo? How do you explain standing in your own way?

I wanted to express this with an example...Though the example itself was not perhaps the best, it did spark a vaulable dialog for me...

    Solobill Laville: An example, Sky -
    Fael Illyar: or perhaps not that solid :P
    Solobill Laville: Tired after a long day at work
    Solobill Laville: I could go outside and sit in the sun and play with my kids
    Solobill Laville: Which is positive for so many reasons
    Solobill Laville: Or i could lay down on the couch alone with a cold beer
    Solobill Laville: decisions
    Solobill Laville: each with ramifications
    Solobill Laville: the second is actually me standing in my own way
    Sky Szimmer: so what is wrong with this? I think it is great which ever you decide
    Solobill Laville: darker or less dark shades of grey
    Sky Szimmer: as long as you are totally in the moment with whatever you do?
    Sky Szimmer: is one better than the other really?
    Solobill Laville: Yes, the second is for others
    Solobill Laville: oops. scratch that - the first is for others
    Adams Rubble: Yes, I was just thinking it is better for the kids if you play with them
    Solobill Laville: the seconds is for thirst
    Solobill Laville: ;)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble is thirsty
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Fael Illyar: I guess a combination won't do?
    Solobill Laville: Maybe not a great example, but the point is I often justify inaction
    Adams Rubble: inaction vs. compassion
    Solobill Laville: well put
    Fael Illyar: I tend to do that too though.
    Fael Illyar: although less of that lately
    Sky Szimmer: I don't know if you should have a preference, because preference is just a state of dissatisfaction with what is
    Sky Szimmer: if you feel thirsty and tired, then you should fully enjoy the moment of lying around
    Fael Illyar: we will have preferences. The key is attachments to those
    Adams Rubble: I agree with you if you take it on the face value of what is best for Bill
    Sky Szimmer: the suffering comes from the mind feeling guilty
    Adams Rubble: but their are others involved
    Adams Rubble: the others depend on Bill
    Faenik: indeed?
    Adams Rubble: he can have a drink and still play with the kids
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: he'll just be tired
    Sky Szimmer: yes, but we are talking about BEing Solo
    Sky Szimmer: we are talking about his suffering
    Adams Rubble: I see the guil angle
    Adams Rubble: guilt
    Solobill Laville: I think the grounding aspect of all of that is attachment
    Fael Illyar: wow, 10 emails sent today.
    Fael Illyar: 12 yesterday
    Sky Szimmer: Certainly Solo can do both, but it is about his mind doing this, feeling guilty about that, wanting something else, and not just being with what is, this moment and now.
    Solobill Laville: Guilt is an emotion I have not struggled too much with, but I have worked on it
    Sky Szimmer: what ever that maybe
    Fael Illyar: the number of emails I'm sending per day is going up fast :P
    Adams Rubble: The example is interesting because there are two different ways to look at it
    Sky Szimmer: guilt is a condition
    Sky Szimmer: that we have learned
    Adams Rubble: guilt vs (compassionvs. inactin)
    Solobill Laville: Yes, Sky, to behave in certain culturally acceptable ways
    Adams Rubble: like an algebraic equation
    Faenik: ah :)
    Solobill Laville: Emotional algebra
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Sky Szimmer: i guess the key point that got my attention is that whatever action we do, we should do completely
    Sky Szimmer: be in the moment with it. be complete.
    Solobill Laville: Agreed
    Fael Illyar: x = 2 * ln y / ln p
    Sky Szimmer: then when it is done, and we decide to do something else, we do that, completely.

This was a very germane topic for me; Sky was almost "me talking to myself" from that perspective of mindfulness, one that I promote and work to sustain so often, whereas this other "me", here and now in this avatar called Solobill, was trying to live and think in this RL world of perception.  In another conversation at another time, her words could easily have been mine.  Seeing that from this perspective though, I can see my own fallability...

    Solobill Laville: But, beware, that can also be a cop-out...
    Sky Szimmer: how is that Solo?
    Solobill Laville: There is a difference between philosophy and practicality
    Solobill Laville: maybe the difference is Right Effort
    Sky Szimmer: for me, it is the difference of the mind.
    Sky Szimmer: with staying with the decision and being with what is.
    Adams Rubble: But sometimes our decisions can be the wrong one and when we think about it we may decide to the opposite
    Sky Szimmer: when you decide to play with the kids, then be with what is at hand, but when the mind starts to want something else, then suffering is at hand
    Sky Szimmer: I guess I tend to believe there are no wrong decisions.
    Solobill Laville: true
    Sky Szimmer: they are just decisions that take us to different scenarios.
    Adams Rubble: The problem with the example is that the children have needs too
    Sky Szimmer: different dreams
    Sky Szimmer: yes. we have our responsibilities.
    Solobill Laville: But perhaps I am talking about a real level of self honesty
    Sky Szimmer: I guess I am talking about being present
    Adams Rubble: Our time with our children is sooooo short
    Sky Szimmer: with whatever we do.
    Sky Szimmer: yes. i am a mom with a 2 year old
    Sky Szimmer: I am well aware
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Adams Rubble: yes bit goes fast
    Adams Rubble: Two year olds are very exhausting
    Sky Szimmer: yes!
    Adams Rubble: You may need a beer and a rest Sky :)
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Sky Szimmer: but being present is all there is.
    Sky Szimmer: I do need a rest. it is tough work. but i find that when my mind is not appreciating what i have at the moment, then i suffer
    Sky Szimmer: like when i am tired and my son just wants to keep playing,
    Adams Rubble: I see where you are coming from Sky
    Sky Szimmer: i wish that i can sleep, then i tend to be resentful
    Sky Szimmer: but then i am not grateful for what i have, a loving son who wants to play with me
    Adams Rubble: You need to be rested for a two year old--always running after to see they are safe
    Sky Szimmer: so, my mind has to change
    Sky Szimmer: my mind has to stay present with what is
    Solobill Laville: and the state of that mind can be like a boat on the waves
    Sky Szimmer: yes.
    Adams Rubble: yes

I think I am so close to what is being said that I am lost in the trees...as in the confusion of falling off a boat in that brief panicked moment where you don't know up from down.  But I feel that the coin of this conversation we are holding has two sides that are very different and very complimentary at the same time.

    Sky Szimmer: to see that you are preferring this v. that, takes you to a different consciousness that is watching the mind
    Solobill Laville: yes
    Sky Szimmer: the mind always wants something else
    Solobill Laville: that awareness is so important
    Solobill Laville: that looking at it from the outside
    Sky Szimmer: outside ?
    Sky Szimmer: outside of what?
    Solobill Laville: if you do not see that you are making a preferential decision
    Solobill Laville: that you are differentiating and cutting things
    Sky Szimmer: yes
    Solobill Laville: not just in the "middle of the muddle"
    Solobill Laville: plopping up and down in the little boat on the water
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Solobill Laville: that is a little, vital, awareness in our every day lives
    Sky Szimmer: to get out of the boat, is to remind ourselves of what is present, what is NOW
    Sky Szimmer: Now, Here, is what is always with us.
    Solobill Laville: Yes, Sky
    Solobill Laville: I am battling with getting hold of the Ox
    Sky Szimmer: yes. solo. me too.
    Adams Rubble: Ox?
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Solobill Laville: Sorry, it is a Chinese Zen analogy
    Adams Rubble: ah
    Sky Szimmer: Adams. I have my own dream. You have your own dream. Others have their own dreams. But I think we can only be responsible for our dream
    Adams Rubble: yes Sky
    Solobill Laville: http://www.buddhanet.net/oxherd1.htm
    Sky Szimmer: so in a way, we can't worry too much about what other people think
    Adams Rubble: With Bill's example, many things come into play
    Adams Rubble: not only just the differences between us
    Sky Szimmer: yes. but there are different strategies, like explaining to the kids
    Adams Rubble: but the times of our lives
    Sky Szimmer: that daddy is tired and after a beer, he can play
    Solobill Laville: Yah!
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Adams Rubble: :)

I was trying to figure out the current very agitated and confused state of my mind...

    Solobill Laville: At current, I think I am looking at the bridge between
    Solobill Laville: NOW and HERE as Sky was saying
    Sky Szimmer: but I guess I was addressing the suffering our mind causes when we are not happy with our present moment
    Adams Rubble: yes I see , Sky
    Solobill Laville: and the intricacies of every day multifaceted life
    Sky Szimmer: thanks.
    Sky Szimmer: yes. it is complicated.
    Sky Szimmer: i believe that whatever challenge we face, it is there so we can see more clearly

Thank you all for a great conversation.