2008.07.30 13:00 - On the self and consequences

Quilty was the guardian that afternoon.

I arrived to find Sky and Avastu already in conversation.

Quilty: Hi Avastu, Sky
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
Quilty: Good to see you again Avastu. I was very moved by the last talk of yours I witnessed.
Sky Szimmer: hi there
Sky Szimmer: it is all good but i find that i keep falling back into the self story
Quilty: Hi Sky. Good to see you as well.
Sky Szimmer: yes Quilty. Long time
Quilty: I've not been online that much in the last few weeks.
Sky Szimmer: me too
Quilty: But I am host for this talk. :-)
Sky Szimmer: great
Quilty: Thank you.
Sky Szimmer: Avastu has offered some great insight
Quilty: Oh? Sorry i missed it.
Sky Szimmer: not today
Sky Szimmer: through his blog
Quilty: Ah. I see.
Sky Szimmer: i wonder how he sees the PaB
Quilty: Again sorry. I haven't had much time for reading blogs.
Sky Szimmer: Avatus, please share with me your thoughts about the PaB exercise
Avastu Maruti: the "self story" and the "falling back into" are BOTH thoughts...

Doug arrives

doug Sosa: hi.
Quilty: Hi Doug
Avastu Maruti: ON WHAT do either of these thoughts arise?
Avastu Maruti: does THAT fall anywhere?

Starseed was at the first chat I hosted last week. It was good to see him return.

Starseed Xue: hi, i cant stay long
Quilty: Hi Star
Quilty: NP
Starseed Xue: namaste everyone
Quilty: Namaste
doug Sosa: yes.
Avastu Maruti: hello again my friend
Starseed Xue: still havent figured out the skin, eh doug?
doug Sosa: nope.
Sky Szimmer: yes. those are thoughts but i find it hard not to buy into the thoughts
Sky Szimmer: i solidy them so i believe in the story, the dream
Sky Szimmer: any suggestions?
Quilty: What is the "falling back into" Avastu referred to?
Avastu Maruti: are the thoughts doing anything?
Sky Szimmer: I was saying earlier that I find it hard not to be falling back into the self story
Sky Szimmer: thus the falling back
Quilty: Ah. I see. Thank you.
Sky Szimmer: no the thoughts are not doing anything but when I buy into them
Sky Szimmer: it creates emotions
Avastu Maruti: and where does this "I" who does this happen, outside of thought?
Avastu Maruti: isn't that "I" another thought? Another "story"?
Avastu Maruti: do you know of anything that isn't characterized as a thought?
Sky Szimmer: no of course they are all thoughts
Quilty: Who watches the watcher?
Sky Szimmer: be in the silent now
Avastu Maruti: and isn't the "ME" only part of this story?
Sky Szimmer: so just no thinking, right?
Avastu Maruti: but WHO can do that? WHO can "be in silence"?
Sky Szimmer: no who can be in the silence, it is just silent
Avastu Maruti: yes!
Starseed Xue: i would like to be in a state of zero thought
Quilty: Why?
Avastu Maruti: all states come and go
Starseed Xue: my thoughts seem useless to me
Avastu Maruti: what is knowing the passing of states?
Starseed Xue: regretful memories, future worries
Sky Szimmer: sometimes my relative reality freaks me out
Sky Szimmer: my thoughts as they come scare me
Avastu Maruti: freaky or calm - clouds passing in the sky
Sky Szimmer: my heart races, shortness of breath,
Sky Szimmer: just passing physical and emotional reactions
Avastu Maruti: as long as you're identified with the body-mind, you are subject to these impermanent states
Avastu Maruti: yet the knowing of all this is effortless
Avastu Maruti: immediate
Starseed Xue: then what is enlightenment?
Avastu Maruti: are you asking me, Star?
Starseed Xue: yes
Starseed Xue: id like to hear anyones answer, actually
Avastu Maruti: enlightenment is a word - a concept
Avastu Maruti: enlightenment is SEEING that there is never anyone to BECOME enlightened
Sky Szimmer: physical reactions are immediate and automatic
Sky Szimmer: how do you suggest that I bypass this
Avastu Maruti: yes
Avastu Maruti: why bypass?
Avastu Maruti: what goal is to be reached by bypassing?
Sky Szimmer: because if i am having a physical reaction, then there is a body that is reacting
Sky Szimmer: so there is an identificatiton with the body
Avastu Maruti: you are not having anything, my friend - all happens IN you
Sky Szimmer: ok.
Sky Szimmer: but there is a reaction.
Avastu Maruti: yes
Sky Szimmer: in your situtation, do you have reactions?
Starseed Xue: a quieter mind would allow me to be more in the moment
Sky Szimmer: do you believe in your thoughts?
Avastu Maruti: situations come and go, thoughts come and go
Avastu Maruti: the illusion is that there is a "thinker", an author of thoughts
Avastu Maruti: the "I" is created, in thought, to take ownership or authorship of thoughts
Avastu Maruti: investigate the reality of this "I"-thought
Quilty: So if there is no thinker then there is nobody to stop the thinking?
Avastu Maruti: yes!
Avastu Maruti: exactly
Quilty: So while we can meditate and let thoughts pass, we can't actively destroy thoughts because there is no we.
Sky Szimmer: so in my relative world, there is happenings that are scary, and then I am scared, what is the problem here
Avastu Maruti: WHO is scared?
Avastu Maruti: can you find this phantom "ME"?
Sky Szimmer: ok. there is a sensation of fear
Avastu Maruti: yes
Sky Szimmer: that arises
Avastu Maruti: yes
Sky Szimmer: then it passes
Avastu Maruti: yes
Sky Szimmer: then leave it
Delani Gabardini is Online
Avastu Maruti: who would do otherwise?
Sky Szimmer: so where does responsibility come in relatively speaking
Avastu Maruti: once this "ghost in the machine" is seen for what it is, a fiction, an illusion of thought, then to WHOM can any of this happen?
Sky Szimmer: who would take care of my child
Starseed Xue: i have to go for a minute, i wont be long
Starseed Xue: afk
Avastu Maruti: taking care happens
Avastu Maruti: you are not the "doer"
Avastu Maruti: you are not themind
Avastu Maruti: *mind
Sky Szimmer: is there responsibility or not
Avastu Maruti: mind happens IN you, as all of it does
Sky Szimmer: is there intention or not
Avastu Maruti: responsibility and intention assumes someone who is responsible and has intentions
Avastu Maruti: actions, reponsible or not, happen- you are not ever affected
Sky Szimmer: I see that, but then why do anything>
Avastu Maruti: who does?
Sky Szimmer: then one can do anything? because nothing happens
Avastu Maruti: of course
Sky Szimmer: one can walk off the cliff
Sky Szimmer: no problem
Avastu Maruti: of course
Avastu Maruti: who says it's a problem? only thought
Sky Szimmer: yes. but Avastu, I see your point, but I think you see mine too
Quilty: But surely by taking such actions you are making it more difficult to see beyond the self?
Quilty: Walk off a cliff, or whatever, and you are perpetuating the self.
Avastu Maruti: I AM is the only reality - yet the words "I AM" are only ever a thought, only ever a translation
Avastu Maruti: a translation of that ever-present PRESENCE
Avastu Maruti: IN WHICH thoughts happen
Avastu Maruti: can you get behind the knowing?
Sky Szimmer: there is no one to be affected, as my world is my dream, but this can be very poorly interpreted
Avastu Maruti: interpreted by who?
Avastu Maruti: "I am hearing a bell"
Sky Szimmer: by those who don't see clearly
Avastu Maruti: the "I" and the "bell" are creation of mind
Avastu Maruti: language convention

I try and get to the fundamental point here. I am going to leave the rest of the conversation uncommented because I came out of this talk still in disagreement with what Avastu was saying but I don't want to use these comments to score extra "points".

Quilty: Avastu, you seem to be suggesting that there are no consequences for actions.
Sky Szimmer: thank you Quilty.
Avastu Maruti: there is only the "hearing", only pure SEEing
Avastu Maruti: who has consequences?
Sky Szimmer: Ultimately that is true
Avastu Maruti: investigate that "I" who has these
Avastu Maruti: if there is no self-center, no reference point, to WHOM can any of this apply?
Quilty: Consequences happen. There doesn;t have to be a who.
Avastu Maruti: yes
Quilty: Hi Genesis.
Avastu Maruti: there is no "who"
genesis Zhangsun: Hi!
Quilty: But there are still consequences.
Quilty: YOu can't just say that because there is no self it doesn't matter. It does matter.
Avastu Maruti: consequences are a conceptualization of mind, a relative description
Avastu Maruti: matters to who?
Quilty: There is no who. It just matters.
Avastu Maruti: who cares?
Sky Szimmer: does it matter?
Avastu Maruti: "matters" is only a concept - have you built your life around concepts?
Avastu Maruti: what is seeing?
Quilty: Well, as a Buddhist, I have been told the law of Karma and I see a kind of truth in it.
Avastu Maruti: don't rely on what you've been told - you've been told you are a "person" also
Sky Szimmer: there are karmic consequences, but there is no one to care
Avastu Maruti: investigate for yourself
Avastu Maruti: don't take on any belief
Avastu Maruti: all words are automatically false
Sky Szimmer: This is hard because then it is a free for all
Avastu Maruti: free for all, for who?
Quilty: The law of karma is difficult to investigate but I do see it's workings.
Avastu Maruti: all these "self-referential" statements are dependent on a separate self
Avastu Maruti: IS there such a thing?
Avastu Maruti: or is that only another concept, another belief?
Sky Szimmer: do you think there is a relative reality and a ultimate reality
Avastu Maruti: reality IS
Quilty: Avastu, apparently you believe there is such a thing, at least on some level...
Avastu Maruti: THIS can only ever be reality
Quilty: I say this because you have taken the trouble to come here and speak to us. Why, if none of this matters?
Avastu Maruti: I do not speak in these meetings unless asked
Sky Szimmer: then why do anything?
Avastu Maruti: who does?
Quilty: There is still an illusion of self that takes actions, like logging in to SL and attending a chat.
Starseed Xue: im back
Quilty: You don;t believe that self exists yet you still act as if it does.
Avastu Maruti: was there ever any control of these things?
Quilty: Hi Star.
Quilty: Are you saying we have no choice in our actions?
Avastu Maruti: yes
Quilty: OK, that I can accept, although I'm not sure if I believe it. :-)
Avastu Maruti: belief is not the point - investigate
Avastu Maruti: do you choose to beat the heart?
Sky Szimmer: ?
Avastu Maruti: do you choose your dreams?
Sky Szimmer: oh heartbeat
Sky Szimmer: no but sometimes i can
Sky Szimmer: change it
Quilty: Physiologically the beating of the heart is involuntary but many actions are voluntary.
Avastu Maruti: that is the illusion
Quilty: We can even choose to stop it, but that would be a little drastic. :-)
Avastu Maruti: can you choose your next thought?
Quilty: No.
genesis Zhangsun: can you choose to be?
genesis Zhangsun: is being choosing to be
Avastu Maruti: if you can't even choose this most basic action, then how are you choosing anything?
genesis Zhangsun: seems like we choose not to be all the time
Quilty: Because you can't choose your next thought doesn;t mean you can't choose some thoughts.
Quilty: Maybe the one after next. :-)
Avastu Maruti: ok - then investigate this
Avastu Maruti: try to chose a thought
Starseed Xue: ok
Quilty: That would seem simple on the face of it.
Avastu Maruti: of course
Quilty: I type some of the things I think, so on the face of it I am determining some of my thoughts.
Avastu Maruti: yes, it appears that way
Avastu Maruti: what is the color of the sky?
Sky Szimmer: blue
Avastu Maruti: how do you know this?
Sky Szimmer: i have been told it is blue
Avastu Maruti: of course
Avastu Maruti: ask Pema sometime about how colors appear
Avastu Maruti: what appears in NOT reality - it's only relative and constructed in mind
Avastu Maruti: so the entire idea that you are a person and have choice is only a relative appearance
Avastu Maruti: a dream
Sky Szimmer: so any consequences of action is only relative and constructed in the mind
Avastu Maruti: yes
Avastu Maruti: the entire appearance is only happening in Consciousness
Avastu Maruti: even the idea of "you"
Quilty: The idea of self may be an illusion but it is a persistent one.
Avastu Maruti: of course
Quilty: And that self still suffers consequences.
Avastu Maruti: can a thought suffer?
genesis Zhangsun: ah yes do we choose to suffer?
Quilty: Maybe suffer is the wrong word. The self experiences consequences.
Avastu Maruti: can a thought experience?
Quilty: Why not?
Avastu Maruti: look now
Avastu Maruti: are thoughts experiencing?
Avastu Maruti: aren't thoughts also experience themselves?
genesis Zhangsun: we are also matter and matter experiences
Quilty: I don't know. I can;t tell.
Avastu Maruti: look for yourself
Sky Szimmer: what do you gen
Avastu Maruti: aren't thoughts also experience?
genesis Zhangsun: ?
Quilty: Hi Joesph
Sky Szimmer: By your statement @ matter
Avastu Maruti: I am not asking for any agreement or addition of belief - I am only pointing to THAT which may have been overlooked
genesis Zhangsun: what do I experience on the level of matter?
Sky Szimmer: what do you mean by matter and matter experiences
Avastu Maruti: the investigation is your own
Quilty: I'm not sure how such investigations would happen. We are bound by our own senses.
Avastu Maruti: of course
Quilty: We experience matter. It seems real to us.
Avastu Maruti: simply ask - what am I
genesis Zhangsun: well it was regarding the idea of the self as consciousness, as thoughts, but the self is stuck in a body and that body experiences consequences of our actions
Quilty: There is no boundary I can draw that defines myself.
genesis Zhangsun: so self is not just consciousness it is affected by matter
genesis Zhangsun: matter is part of self
genesis Zhangsun: interpreted by consciousness
Quilty: But what matter? We are not the same matter we were born with?
genesis Zhangsun: what do you mean by that quilty?
Quilty: It is a simple physical thing...
genesis Zhangsun: how so?
genesis Zhangsun: Don't we live and die within the same body?
Quilty: The molecules of our body are constantly changing. We eat, we extrete, we are constantly swapping some matter for other.
Quilty: what we define as our body is just a convention.
Avastu Maruti: :)
genesis Zhangsun: yes and our actions as you say have consequences on this ever changing body
Quilty: They have consequences. May not be on what we perceive as our body.
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Quilty: They may not even be on what we call ourselves but there is no separation.
Quilty: Not sure that makes sense. :-)
Quilty: The self, as I see it, is a bundle of consequences. Nothing more or less.
Quilty: When we physically die, those consequences don't
Quilty: But all this is part of the bigger Self.
Quilty: I think I've reached my time limit. This illusion of self needs the illusion of sleep. :-)
Sky Szimmer: thanks everyone.
Quilty: Please carry on and if you want to include the further discussion in the blog cna someone please send it to me?
Quilty: Thank you.
Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend
Quilty: Thank you for a very interesting conversation.