That morning I met Doug when I arrived, and Pia soon joined us. [Pema posted the session but Eliza later fixed a url]
doug Sosa: morning!
Pema Pera: hi there, Doug!
Pema Pera: Looking forward to meeting you next week in RL, for a change, after all those Qwaq and SL meetings of the last year!
doug Sosa: yes. i just sent another email about time. I saw the movie Wally last night.
doug Sosa: Wally leaves a disorientation, like the wet sand on the beach as the wave receeds.
Pema Pera: Haven’t seen that one
doug Sosa: About a trash collector that remains on earth afte all the rst of life has died out from pollution, and it is a romance and funny.
doug Sosa: so yo can see why it is disorienting.
Pema Pera: I can imagine . . . though for it to be fun must be quite a stretch I guess
doug Sosa: But the amazing part is, because its animated (brilliantly) it is hard to identify with the machine, but the body tries! the result is, muscles are worn out.
doug Sosa: It always amazees me that people think thinking is in the head.
Pema Pera: Hi Pia!
doug Sosa: Hi Pla.
Pia Iger: Hi, Doug, Pema
Pia Iger: what were you talking about, Doug?
doug Sosa: about my reaction to the movie wally i saw last night.
doug Sosa: maybe it was projector homework!
Pia Iger: not seen it yet
Pia Iger: projector homework?
doug Sosa: pema uses the metaphor of the projector, the difference between the dram on screen and the process of getting it there through the projetor lam, the film, the lens..
Pema Pera: :)
doug Sosa: lam “lens”
Pia Iger: yes, I knew that. but not clear your connection with the moive you saw last night.
doug Sosa: ther was a projector, it was a movie. there was the cone of light from the projector booth, and the unseen projectionist.
doug Sosa: and at the end the list of the two hundre d people who made the film.
doug Sosa: what if there were credits i the sky of the two hundred people who made the life we are in!
doug Sosa: “in”
Pema Pera: :-)
Pia Iger: who would be the audience?
I mention my planetarium adventures.
Pema Pera: that reminds me of some time I spent with astronomy colleagues in AMNH, the American Museum for Natural History in New York City
Pema Pera: we were the audience, so to speak :)
doug Sosa: the dead the yet unborn… i used to spend
doug Sosa: days at the natural history as a child drawing the anaimls in the glass panoramas..
doug Sosa: i hated the dark indian rooms..
doug Sosa: and spent many a time in the planaterium loooking at the NY skyline.
Pema Pera: after hours, when the public was gone, we used the planetarium dome as a giant projector screen
Pema Pera: all around and above us, 100 feet in diameter
Pema Pera: using the seven large projectors. And then, at some point, when someone connected a different computer, there were huge letters written in the night sky
Pema Pera: YOU’VE GOT MAIL
doug Sosa: what?
Pia Iger: haha
doug Sosa: ah, mail in the sky.
Pema Pera: yes, from God #1 I guess
doug Sosa: wny #1?
I summarize my conversations with Adams.
Pema Pera: oh, Adams and I have been talking about the relationship between the notions of God and of Being
Pema Pera: and I made comparison between three terms, to see what they might be pointing to:
Pema Pera: 1) a simple traditional God as a man with white beard on a cloud in the sky
Pema Pera: 2) a more abstract God of Christianity, more like what most people nowadays imagine Him to be
Pema Pera: 3) Being as we use the term here
Pema Pera: And then I used the 1) -> 2) transition as a comparison for the kind of 2) -> 3) transition that I had in mind
Pema Pera: For example, in the 2)->3) transition the notion of a “creator God” is dropped
Pema Pera: just like the position of “on a cloud” is dropped in the 1)->2) transition
doug Sosa: the god thing is wonderful. my view: we face a complex nature (as early humans) try to tie it all together, imagine it must have an agency and so we project ourselves into it, get intoa dialog with that god, and through that learn about ourselve, and finally reappropriate it all back to us.
Pema Pera: So in 3) there is no longer to problem question: “if God is all powerful and has created everything, why did he create all this suffering and is he responsible for it?
doug Sosa: i sometimes say, god’s job is to take care of the particles and atoms, and the rest is up to us.
Pema Pera: Yes, that is a nice psychological interpretation, which seems very apt
Pema Pera: certainly for 1), probably also for 2) by and large
doug Sosa: but it leaves a hole where the whole ought to be, and we remain confused about what that whole is.
Pema Pera: The other day, I was trying to point out that for 3) there is no similar psychological explanation, at least as far as I see and understand things
Pema Pera: although experiences with 3), when talked about between individual people, necessarily will be reported in psychological terms
Pema Pera: which then when followed back may seem to point to 2) rather than 3).
Pema Pera: Hi Sky!
Pia Iger: Hi Sky!
Pema Pera: Hi Wol!
doug Sosa: by # you mean when the concept has been dropped but something remains.?
Pema Pera: Nice meeting you!
Wol Euler: good morning everyone, sorry I’m late.
Pema Pera: I believe we haven’t met here yet, but I have read your dialogues on the blog :)
doug Sosa: hi sky and wol.
Pia Iger: Hi Wol!
Pema Pera: and I enjoyed those very much
Sky Szimmer: Hi all.
Sky Szimmer: glad you got here Wol.
Pema Pera: np problem re late: people come and go all the time here
Wol Euler smiles.
We welcome Sky and Wol.
Pema Pera: We are talking about various views of God and Being
Sky Szimmer: great!
Pema Pera: I had numbered them a while ago, when talking with Adams, to get some handles — which Adams now uses in her blog
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Pema Pera: So let me repeat the three here quickly:
Pema Pera: 1) a simple traditional God as a man with white beard on a cloud in the sky
Pema Pera: 2) a more abstract God of Christianity, more like what most people nowadays imagine Him to be
Pema Pera: 3) Being as we use the term here
doug Sosa: robert bly once wrote “ignorance of the soul is the dark side of monotheism.”
Pema Pera: dropping “cloud” from 1 to 2, and dropping “creator God” from 2 to 3
Wol Euler: sorry, you mean by putting “being” as 1?
Pema Pera: sorry, Wol? Being is 3) above
Pema Pera: as in “Play as Being” :)
Wol Euler: then I misunderstood. I thought your last sentence meant to shift the categories down one notch, as it were.
Pema Pera: ah, no, sorry, very quick summary of longer story . . .
Wol Euler reads back.
Pema Pera: Going to abstraction of “God” drops human-form picture ; the going from “God” to “Being” drops more . . ..
Pema Pera: adn what that “more” can be is one of the themes of “Play as Being”
Wol Euler: oh I see now. ok. hankyou.
Wol Euler: +t
Wol Euler: 1 - cloud = 2 and 2 - creator = 3. Yes, I’d agree broadly with that.
Pema Pera: How would you describe 3, or characterize broadly?
Wol Euler: lol
Pema Pera: that sounds like “play” ?
Wol Euler: as in “I’m neither a dieist nor a philosopher but that matches my understanding and gut feeling”
Pema Pera: :-)
Sky Szimmer: Play as God
doug Sosa: doug goes, bye.
Pema Pera: bye Doug
Doug takes off, and Wol turns to Jewish mysticism.
Wol Euler: I read somewhere online a summary of different strands of Kaballah thinking, Jewish mysticism. The definitions of Martin Buber agreee with this idea.
Sky Szimmer: Somehow I like the sound of that. It helps me with your suggestion yesterday if we can imagine we had all the power of Being… but somehow it invokes more imagination for me thinking about the power of God. Maybe it is all the conditioning I’ve absorbed from all the God fearing folks around me.
Wol Euler: “The Kabbalah’s view of G-d includes: G-d exists but is unknowable; the ten sefirot is how G-d manifests Himself in this world; the human body is a microcosm of the universe; G-d is Self-limiting; the world is imperfect; and, man is partners with G-d to help repair the world.”
Wol Euler: “Martin Buber’s view of G-d includes: G-d cannot be defined and G-d’s existence cannot be proven; man enters into a relationship with G-d when man enters into a genuine dialogue with others in man’s daily activities; laws are given by G-d to individuals (there was no on-time revelation at Mount Sinai); and, evil comes about either through G-d withdrawing from man or man’s own lack of decision or direction.”
Wol Euler: http://www.becomingjewish.org/rlife.html
Wol Euler: God is Being. God is us while we really Be.
Pema Pera: .
Wol Euler: I liike the idea of the world being imperfect, and us needing to help perfect it.
Pema Pera: (just wrote several lines that got dropped . . . may appear later?)
Sky Szimmer: why>
Sky Szimmer: why do you like to think the world imperfect?
Wol Euler: mmm, that was uncarefully phrased. It distresses em to see the world’s imperfection (which tends to mean what we have done to he world)
Wol Euler: what I like is the idea of our responsibility and our partnership.
Pema Pera: yes
IM: Wol Euler: do you know, you can recap typd text by CTRL-Up-arrow? maybe you can find the lines that were lost
Pema Pera: but then there are two variations of that
IM: Wol Euler: lol
Pema Pera: in various religions
Pema Pera: one is to take that completely serious as ultimate reality
Pema Pera: with for example a battle between good and evil in the end
Pema Pera: and a real possibility of evil winning
Pema Pera: The other one is to see all as only relatively real
Pema Pera: not absolutely
Pema Pera: and evil as only present in the relative picture in the evil-good dichotomy
Pema Pera: of course this does not mean that responsibility can be dropped
Pema Pera: on the contrary
Wol Euler nods.
Pema Pera: the challenge is to celebrate the relative level
Pema Pera: as in playing a game
Pema Pera: often people are most intensely serious when playing . . . .
Wol Euler: “Playing he stock market”
Pema Pera: lol
Pema Pera: or playing soccer
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Pema Pera: and with the trust in the ultiimate goodness, you can wholeheartedly work for relative goodness
Pema Pera: but ideally not a blind trust
Pema Pera: but a real kind of seeing, or at least a glimpse of that kind of seeing
We exchange ideas about the relative and the ultimate.
Sky Szimmer: I wonder if ultimately nothing happens and everything happens on its own, then relatively speaking, does it matter
Wol Euler: yes and no, I’d say. It matters a great deal to us, here and now, that what we do is worth doing and done well.
Pema Pera: it does matter within the framework of the relative — it doesn’t “matter” outside, but we have to be very careful with what that means, since we, being inside, only are familiar with “matter” in the relative form, while we are talking here as people or as avatars
Wol Euler: yes, exactly
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: :)
Wol Euler: I’m full of quotes today. Mahtma Gandhi: “Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it”
Pema Pera: beautiful
Pema Pera: you should produce a calendar!
Wol Euler: that is the gap between relative and absolute. we have to live and act in the relative, even while we think of the absolute.
Wol Euler: lol
Pema Pera: yes, but it is actually possible to use the absolute as a resource
Sky Szimmer: i don’t know if I agree with this.
Pema Pera: contrary to what most people seem to believe, when hearing all this, since it seems so abstract
Sky Szimmer: this seems to indicate a duality
Pema Pera: The duality is in the relative
Pema Pera: it is all one from the point of view of the absolute
Pema Pera: from the point of view of teh absolute there is no separate relative
Pema Pera: we are now talking with the relative :)
Pema Pera: we are now talking with the relative :)
Sky Szimmer: yes but as a practitioner, I dont’ know if it helps me to think like that
Sky Szimmer: as the goal is to remember oneself as Being and not a separate entity
Pema Pera: let us be very careful, Sky
Pema Pera: and go very slowly
Pema Pera: this is crucial
We talk about the YSBS, “you seeing, Being Seeing” exploration.
Pema Pera: Wol, you may not know this latest practice form
Pema Pera: You seeing Being seeing?
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow. Nope, new to me.
Pia Iger: I understand there are two reference frame: relative and absolute. While we are talking, we sort of move from one to another, make the talk “apparently” not agreeable.
Pia Iger: that is why Sky was confused.
Sky Szimmer: I am not confused Pia. I just disagree
Wol Euler chuckles.
Pia Iger: You disagree because you were not clear what reference point Pema was standing. There was not disagreement.
Sky Szimmer: : )
Pema Pera: I agree with Pia :)
Pema Pera: but let me explain why and how
Pema Pera: and we’ll have to do this very slowly
Pema Pera: a bit tricky in one-line chat bites . . . .
Pema Pera: . . . since it is rather subtle
Pema Pera: but first the YSBS practice:
Pema Pera: The idea is to spend a short time looking around, to see clearly how we normally see — nothing unusual, just make yourself aware of your normal operation of the way of seeing things in front of you in the cone of your vision.
Pema Pera: Then you spend a short time letting Being see. Being sees everything, without point of view, including everything we normally consider inner as well as outer. And it is not a physical seeing.
Pema Pera: So Sky was refering to the second part, yes Sky? When you wrote:
Pema Pera: Sky Szimmer: yes but as a practitioner, I dont’ know if it helps me to think like that [7:48] Sky Szimmer: as the goal is to remember oneself as Being and not a separate entity
Sky Szimmer: yes.
Pema Pera: the “oneself” may be a bit misleading here
Pema Pera: in the second half, you let Being see
Pema Pera: there is no emphasis on oneself being Being
Papillon23 Xue: sorry
Pema Pera: hi Papillon!
Sky Szimmer: As Being, I am the source, there is no need for resource
Papillon23 Xue: oh dear.
Pema Pera: come join us
Papillon23 Xue: i came too late for lessons
Papillon23 Xue: time passed by
Pia Iger: Hi, Papillon.
Wol Euler: hello papillon
Papillion joins us, expecting something quite different than a discussion about reality.
Pema Pera: Sky, in the practice we are not thinking about source or resource, we just let the practice happen
Papillon23 Xue: are you Hermoine’s chinese class’ students
Papillon23 Xue: ?
Sky Szimmer: yes Pema. I was just biting on the one line that you wrote earlier.
Sky Szimmer: I must go I am afraid.
Pema Pera: which line?
Sky Szimmer: using Being as a resource
Pia Iger: no, Papillon. we are not that class.
Pema Pera: 中国語？
Wol Euler: bye sky, thanks for leading me here.
Papillon23 Xue: 日本人のではないだろうか？
Pema Pera: ちごうんです。
Pema Pera: オランダ人
Pema Pera: ：）
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
Pia Iger take a rest.
Papillon23 Xue: みな日本語が話せるね
Pema Pera: we switched to Japanese, sorry
Pema Pera: no, papilion, we don’t all speak Japanese
Pema Pera: but somehow a fair fraction of people coming here do
Wol Euler: indeed not.
Papillon23 Xue: 誰か日本語がわかりませんか？
Pema Pera: I am the only one, I think
Wol Euler: konichi wa, Kanadajin des’
Pema Pera: not the only one!
Wol Euler: thats the limit of mine.
Papillon23 Xue: then i will at most use romanji
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: you came for Chinese class?
Papillon23 Xue: i speak japanese, but started learning chinese
Papillon23 Xue: wanted to go to both
Papillon23 Xue: I had been learning chinese using rosetta stone
Papillon23 Xue: but need somebody to tlak to
Papillon23 Xue: are you teaching?
Pema Pera: http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/ is our web site
Pema Pera: we get together here four times a day
Papillon23 Xue: wol euler
Papillon23 Xue: san
Pema Pera: to talk about the nature of reality
Wol Euler: lol
Wol Euler: hello?
Papillon23 Xue: ore wa igirisujin desu
Wol Euler: no, sorry, not at all :-)
Pema Pera: no language lessons
Pema Pera: It should be easier to learn Chinese, knowing Japanese already
Wol Euler: that was the only single sentence-fragment that I remember.
Pema Pera: :)
Papillon23 Xue: : )
Papillon23 Xue: it is
Papillon23 Xue: ridiculously similar
Pema Pera: Well, I have to go
Pema Pera: we’ve been here for an hour
Wol Euler: “It was long ago and in another land.”
Papillon23 Xue: see you everyone
Pema Pera: oh, Papilion:
Wol Euler: thank you all, this was a very good session.
Pema Pera: do you mind if you put our conversation in our blog?
Pema Pera: we ask people permission first
Papillon23 Xue: yes?
Wol Euler: please do :-)
Pema Pera: we normally add everything
Papillon23 Xue: sure
Pema Pera: unless someone prefers not to
Pema Pera: okay, thank you!
Pema Pera: bye for now!
Pia Iger: bye, everyone.
Papillon23 Xue: ciao
We end the session, Papillon takes off, and I was about to talk with Wol, whom we had invited as a new guardian. Wol would like to know more about the role of guardians, and it thought it would be nice for Pia to join our conversation. Right then Adams dropped by as well, and the four of us decided to move to the beach.
Pema Pera: oh, Pia
Pia Iger: yes?
Pema Pera: Wol would like to talk with me about the possibility of becoming a guardian
Pia Iger: oh, I can do it.
Pema Pera: since you are a guardian too, would you like to stay a few minutes?
Pema Pera: we can all three talk then
Pema Pera: let us go somewhere else thoug
Pema Pera: otherwise more people will come here
Wol Euler: ok, TP us?
Pema Pera: oh, hi Adams!
Pia Iger: ok.
Wol Euler: hi adams.
Pema Pera: would you like to join us?
Pema Pera: You have met Wol before?
Pia Iger: let’s go to Adams.
Wol Euler smiles. We’ve met.
Pia Iger: her beach house is nice.
Pema Pera: great idea
Adams Rubble: I am interrupting. I will just say hello
Pema Pera: can you go there and tp us?
Pema Pera: no, Adams
Adams Rubble: Oh you’d like to go to my house?
Pema Pera: we want to talk for a few minutes with Wol
It would turn out to become a very interesting conversation, a few hours rather than minutes . . .
Pema Pera: about her becoming a new guardian, if she accepts
Pema Pera: sure, Adams
Pema Pera: is that near the beach?
Adams Rubble: Great! I have new chairs
Wol Euler smiles.
Adams Rubble: on the beach
Pia Iger: yeah!
Adams Rubble: hang on
Pema Pera: great
Pema Pera: we hang :)
Pema Pera: u c Wol, you get a grand introduction to guardianship :)
Wol Euler: lol
Teleport completed from http://slurl.com/secondlife/Rieul/176/149/75
Adams Rubble: I can’t tp Wol
Wol Euler: ack!
Wol Euler kicks SL.
Pia Iger: she is here.
Wol Euler: yay
Adams Rubble: Hi Wol :)
Pema Pera: Nice place, Adams!
Adams Rubble: Thank you
Giving Campfire PinkRock Sh: Could not find sound ‘wolf_howl++’.
Adams Rubble: That’s a Northern Wei stele there. I made it
Pema Pera: u c Wol, this is a perk of being a guardian, to get a nice place to put up a little house :-)
Wol Euler looks.
Wol Euler: lol
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: this is on Play as Being land
Wol Euler: I’ve seen Fael’s place, and swum in the lake.
Pema Pera: a good deal: no obligations, only perks :)
Wol Euler: well, that is why I hesitate.
Pema Pera: but of course nice if you’d like to help out — on your own time and only according to your own interests
Pema Pera: the community is key
Pema Pera: and clearly you fit in
Wol Euler: I am knee-deep in obligations at present, and I really do hesitate to take on responsibilities, even mild ones, that I might not be able to fulfil.
Wol Euler smiles. ty.
Pema Pera: just having people like you, and like Pia and Adams, is what makes PaB what it is
Pema Pera: no responsibilities beyond being who you are — seriously
Pema Pera: and if at some point you’d like to do something, fine
Pema Pera: some guardians are quite active
Pema Pera: others are not
Pema Pera: that is perfectly fine
Adams Rubble: If I may, I’d just like to say that we all felt the same way, Wol
Wol Euler: that’s good to know.
Wol Euler: what is actually involved, practically speaking?
Pema Pera: only half the people come to the weekly meetings, for example, but we are all subscribed to a Google email group — so you’ll stay up to date, and can add your voice to the interesting discussions going on there as well — time permitting of course
Wol Euler: oh hang on, rain started, I have to close windows
All four avatars were expressing a lot of body language, moving around in various ways.
Adams Rubble is noticing that four AVs become very active in her chairs
Pema Pera: :)
Pia Iger guess it is from the pose ball of the chairs.
Adams Rubble: Either that or we’re all very impatient
Adams Rubble: :)
Wol Euler: back. Does anone else regret the perpetual LA sunshine of SL?
Pema Pera: nothing is involved, strictly speaking, but if you like, you can attend the weekly meetings, and if you can stand in for someone else, leading a meeting if someone else cannot come — but only if you have time.
Pema Pera: I like rain — I’m from Holland :)
Wol Euler: If I had a sim, I’d make it rain buckets every day like in “Rashomon”
Wol Euler: yay!
Pema Pera: or at least Storm can — have you met him?
Pema Pera: oh, we can make rain in Rieul
Pema Pera: reverse order
Wol Euler: yes, we’ve met.
Pema Pera: ask him!
Pema Pera: he makes rain and thunder
Wol Euler: a well-chosen name thten.
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera enjoys the sound of fire . . . .
Giving Campfire PinkRock Sh: Could not find sound ‘wolf_howl++’.
Wol Euler reads back again.
Adams Rubble: Help yourself to hotdogs, marshmellows or coffee :)
Giving Campfire PinkRock Sh: Could not find sound ‘wolf_howl++’.
Pema Pera realizes that his typist has not head breakfast yet, but frankly, he couldn’t care less
Wol Euler: ty.
Pema Pera: *had
Wol Euler: are you here yet, or somewhere in mid-pacific still?
Wol Euler: it must be an enormous switch.
Pema Pera: in Berkeley, CA
Pema Pera: was in Japan for 2.5 months
Adams Rubble’s typist empathizes with Pema’s typist
Wol Euler: I meant in timesense, jetlag.
Pema Pera: yeah, but used to it
Pema Pera: PaB lag now
Pema Pera: I’m doing the 1 am sessions still - most of them
Pema Pera: but I really should let Pia and Adams speak!
Pia and Adams shared their experiences as guardians with Wol.
Wol Euler: yes, I’d like to hear your experiences and opinions about being a guardian.
Pia Iger: We can answer Wol’s question.
Pia Iger: so far, there was not much challenge. just show up on my slot, introduce to new ppl about PaB, keep and post the log on Wiki.
Adams Rubble: The work is light and this perk is great
Wol Euler: :-)
Adams Rubble: It has brought me closer to the group than I would have been otherwise
Pia Iger: yes. as a guardian, we have more communications besides the meetings
Adams Rubble: yes, the emails
Adams Rubble: lots of things discussed
Wol Euler listens.
Pia Iger: I like PaB and learn so much from it and the group. So naturally, I want to do a little bit help to make this group/meeting sustainable.
Adams Rubble: At the beginning in sessions, it is hard to get to know everyone. The extra comunication helps with that
Adams Rubble: It is made up of a really nice bunch of people
Wol Euler smiles. That seems to be true.
Wol Euler: the part that worries me is simply having to run meetings if somebody else cannot be present. I find myself in the position of a more-or-less believing member of a church congregation who is asked to give a sermon ;-)
Adams Rubble: No sermons :)
Wol Euler: because this interests me greatly, but I don’t know that I *believe* in PaB.
Adams Rubble: Ah, that is NOT a problem
Wol Euler: (whatever “belief” might mean in this context)
Pia Iger: PaB is exploration, not sermon, no dogma.
Adams Rubble: I have been fidgeting with that one
Adams Rubble: yes Pia
Adams Rubble: I sort of stumbled into PaB loking for Buddhism
Adams Rubble: I no longer am looking for Buddhism
Wol Euler nods.
Adams Rubble: We have room to explore lots of paths here
Adams Rubble: sorry lag
Pia Iger: The only drive for me, is to know more about reality.
Adams Rubble: As to runing the meetings, there is lots of help
Adams Rubble: There are almost always other guardians there
Adams Rubble: sometimes the whole group is made up of guardians
Wol Euler laughs
Pia Iger: We can just be there, listen.
Adams Rubble: In any case, I don’t know of anyone who regretted doing it
Adams Rubble: I listen more as guardian than I do other times, I think :)
Wol Euler: Well, this is reassuring, and the offer is kind and flattering.
Wol Euler: If you’d have me under these terms, then I guesss I am glad to had (as it were)
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: :)
Wol Euler: As long as we are talking about truth and absoluteness and so, there is something I should say.
Adams Rubble: Welcome aboard, Wol
Pia Iger: That is what it is, Wol. Only about truth.
Pema Pera: yes, thanks, Wol.
We continued our conversation for a while, and at some point I refered back to what Wol had asked earlier, using the metaphor of a church.
Pema Pera: So Wol, to respond to your “church?” question
Pema Pera: which is a valid one for sure
Wol Euler: please :-)
Pema Pera: all we do in PaB is to see whether we can explore reality BUT
Pema Pera: the typical problem there is that if I as a person try to explore reality
Pema Pera: I am stuck already from the beginning in a relative realm
Pema Pera: it would be as if a movie character went looking around within the movie looking for the projector
Pema Pera: tough luck
Pema Pera: will never work
Pema Pera: so:
Wol Euler nods.
Pema Pera: instead it makes more sense to start from the other end
Pema Pera: If Being plays us
Pema Pera: then why not let Being acknowledge us
Wol Euler: so being us to us in RL as we in RL are to our SL avs.
Yes, exactly! That parallel had been a major motivation for me to launch PaB in a virtual world in the first place.
Pema Pera: so the way to do that is to first let me play Being playing me
Pema Pera: then drop the first part
Pema Pera: does that make sense?
Pema Pera: (totally independent of any sect, tradition, religion, whatever)
Wol Euler: I’ll have to think about that, but it sounds like it might make sense.
Pema Pera: the one big problem with any approach to “insight”
Pema Pera: or “enlightenment” as it is often called
Pema Pera: is that the idea seems to be, as we hear it, that there is a kind of heroic quest
Pema Pera: hero goes out, searches here and there, finally gets enlightened
Pema Pera: that picture is highly misleading
Pema Pera: the only good part is that it gets people off their butt
Pema Pera: gets them started, a motivator
Pema Pera: the rest of the picture is nonsense
Pema Pera: a person cannot get enlightened
Pema Pera: Being is already enlightened
Pema Pera: a person can stop standing in the way of Being
Pema Pera: letting Being shine through
Pema Pera: and once we learn a bit how to do that
Pema Pera: live ain’t the same ever again
Pema Pera: it is a matter of like finding a muscle you normally don’t use
Pema Pera: a bit like toilet training you could say :)
Pema Pera: not that hard, really
Wol Euler: lol
Pema Pera: first you have to be willing to consider that this makes sense — not blind faith
Pema Pera: but faith that it *might* make sense, enough to be willing to really try
Wol Euler: there’s a great poem by C.P. Cavafy called “Ithaca” (I really am full of quotes today)
Pema Pera: Adams is a nice example of really trying, on her blog
Pema Pera loves Cavafy
Pema Pera: can you quote?
Wol Euler: which is about Odysseus returning to Ithaca, the executive summary would be that the purpose of Ithaca is to get you off your butt. By the time you get there, you will no longer need to get there.
Wol Euler: sorry, too long to quote. I can find a URL though…
Pema Pera: yeah, I now remember reading it.
Pema Pera: Here is a favorit of mine: http://users.hol.gr/~barbanis/cavafy/barbarians.html
Pema Pera: waiting for the barbarians
Wol Euler smiles. I came to Cavafy through the “Alexandria Quartet”.
Wol Euler: ah, yes, also great.
Pema Pera: http://users.hol.gr/~barbanis/cavafy/ithaca.html
Wol Euler: yes, ty!
Adams Rubble: ty
I love Cavafy. Afterwards, I read his wonderful Ithaca poem. How apt!
Pema Pera: in fact, PaB uses no road or path — “the goal is the path” is a phrase sometimes used
Pema Pera: in that sense like zen
Pema Pera: or dzogchen
Pema Pera: but in other ways quite different
Pema Pera: the idea is that there is no need to go anywhere
Pema Pera: we are already there
Pema Pera: but we are looking through the wrong end of the telescope
Pema Pera: normally
Pema Pera: from us to Being
Pema Pera: and if we can let Being see
Pema Pera: all is well :)
Adams Rubble wonders about her bus
Wol Euler nods.
Pema Pera: hahaha
Wol Euler: eh?
Pema Pera: what about your bus, Adams?
Adams Rubble: I’ve been riding for the past few days checking out destinations
Adams Rubble: no destination?
Wol Euler does that too.
Adams Rubble: Wo, it is a bit long to explain but it is in my blog
Pema Pera: you are already there — but of course you can play the game of going somewhere, if you like that kind of thing :)
Adams Rubble: Some of what Pema said, today I haven’t heard yet (which is not to say he might have said it my presence)
Wol Euler: ah, might I ask you to put that in your Profile, on the “web” page? or what is the URL
Pema Pera: http://rubblebornthoughts.wordpress.com/
Wol Euler: ty!
Pema Pera: Adams, I have never said it before that way
Pema Pera: it is my response to Wol
Pema Pera: each time I talk about it I say it differently
Pema Pera: or much more accurately, something different comes out :)
Pema Pera: I enjoyed listening too :)
Pema Pera: when you learn to step aside, interesting things come out . . . .
Pema Pera: thank you, Wol !
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Wol Euler: my pleasure, Pema.
That is how it feels: whenever I have PaB conversations, I enjoy listening to myself as much as to the others, as a presentation by Being, using our group as a mouth piece or orchestra. At this point Caledonia joined us, and I refered to our session 12 hours earlier, titled “In Fresh Snow.”
Pema Pera: Hi Cal !
Adams Rubble: Hi Cal :)
Wol Euler: hello cal.
Pema Pera: Cal is cavorting in fresh snow these days :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: but still rezzing
Wol Euler: lol
Caledonia Heron: hola amigos :)
Pema Pera: :)
Wol Euler: buenos dias
Pema Pera: goeie morgen
Pema Pera: Wol, du bist Deutsch, jah?
Pema Pera: oder ein Deutsch Sprechende?
Wol Euler: lol, ich komme aus England durch Kanada, wohne in Deutschland seit 14 Jahren.
Pema Pera: ah!
Pema Pera: I left Holland at half my age, live in New York City now
Wol Euler: ich habe mich im Profile so genannt um eine klare Identität gegenüber mein Alt zu schaffen.
Wol Euler: aha!
Wol Euler: where in Holland?
Pema Pera: ach so, das ist interessant jah
Pema Pera: in Utrecht geboren
Pema Pera: Cal, still rezzing?
Wol Euler: ty adams.
Adams Rubble: yw
Wol noticed one of Storm’s balloons, nearby.
Wol Euler: oh, that’s a balloon! I thought it was the rising moon :-)
Pema Pera: btw, Adams, I love the picture on your blog!
Adams Rubble: No it is Storm’s way of getting up here
Pema Pera: yes, we can enjoy balloon rides here
Adams Rubble: Oh good, pema. I thought of it as soon as you mentioned God outside the door
Pema Pera: you know, that was so funny
Pema Pera: I had a very similar picture in mind
Pema Pera: let me see whether I can find that
Pema Pera: from London instead
Pema Pera: just a sec
I had to look up something on the internet, to make my point here, and would get back to it a bit later.
Pema Pera: Cal, are you still rezzing?
Caledonia Heron: I’m here…listening :)
Pema Pera: would you like a seat?
Caledonia Heron: thank you, yes
Wol Euler: yes,pease do.
Adams Rubble: Please join us Cal, you can sit in one of these chairs and fidget with us :)
Caledonia Heron: :)
Caledonia Heron: let the fidgting begin
Adams Rubble: :)
Wol Euler: many SL animations are far too animated, I find.
Adams Rubble: When I bought them I liked the variety…
Caledonia Heron: I think I may take your approach to prim allocation Adams ….I have been far too strict with myself :)
Adams Rubble: never pictured four people sitting at once :)
Pema Pera: :)
Comparing notes about prims.
Adams Rubble: I tried to keep within 65 until we were told we could have more
Adams Rubble: this is more fun :)
Caledonia Heron: what is the new limit? I did not get the memo
Adams Rubble: something like 266
Wol Euler: well, that fruit bowl alone must be 8.
Adams Rubble: :)
Caledonia Heron: 9
Wol Euler: lol
Caledonia Heron: good guess
Adams Rubble: My Buddha stele is just 2
Wol Euler: I counted. There must be an apple stem I can’t seee.
Adams Rubble: :0
Adams Rubble: yes
Caledonia Heron: I obviously have some new decorating options :)
Caledonia Heron: 199 more prims
Adams Rubble: I want to build my own house, and then I’ll have control
Caledonia Heron: oh 266, so 201
Caledonia Heron: go nuts!
Caledonia Heron: it’s a challenge to build low prim
Adams Rubble: Yes, good discipline tough
Adams Rubble: though
Adams Rubble: funny type
Adams Rubble: typo
Wol Euler: sorry, I have to go.
Adams Rubble: Great to see you again, Wol. I’d like to have a chat sometime :)
Pema Pera: great talking with you!
Wol Euler: Thank you for the invitation, and I’m glad to be in the club :-)
Caledonia Heron: yes, nice to meet you :)
Wol Euler: likewise.
Adams Rubble: bye :)
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: bye Wol!
Wol Euler: take care, and I’ll seey you later on perhaps; if not, another day.
Caledonia Heron: bye Wol :)
I returned to what I had started to mention above.
Pema Pera: Adams, when I wrote to you about “knock on the door”
Pema Pera: I actually had in mind a different picture than what you used
Adams Rubble: yes, pema
Pema Pera: http://www.explore-stpauls.net/oct03/textMM/LightWorldN.htm
Pema Pera: from London, St. Paul’s cathedral
Pema Pera: but now I see it is *almost* the same as yours
Pema Pera: but not quite
Pema Pera: look at the folds in the dress, slightly different
Adams Rubble is hoping her laptop will let her look
Pema Pera: arm bending too
Pema Pera: well, can look later
Pema Pera: but funny that I had that image in mind
Adams Rubble: Yes, I will look carefully
Pema Pera: when I wrote
Pema Pera: and you can imagine my surprise
Pema Pera: seeing it on your blog then later almost the same :)
Pema Pera: as for the snow, Cal, are you walking barefoot in it?
Caledonia Heron: strange synchronicities happening
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: yes
Adams Rubble: There was a framed picture hanging in the basement of the church I atended as a child. One of the first paintings I remember :)
Caledonia Heron: no, I remembered my boots :)
Pema Pera: :>)
Pema Pera: mittons in my case
Caledonia Heron: :)
Adams Rubble thinks Cal fidgets nicely
Caledonia Heron: :)
Pema Pera: I probably should get some breakfast in RL
Adams Rubble: Yes, you must be starving
Pema Pera: I’ve been up since 3 am, and it’s now past 9 am . . . .
Pema Pera: combined jet lag and PaB lag :)
Adams Rubble: wow
Caledonia Heron: I’m kind of displaced atm also
Pema Pera: yeah, surprised to get your early morning emails :)
Caledonia Heron: not full of small talk :)
Caledonia Heron: yes, could not sleep, saw your email come in :)
Pema Pera: perhaps we can call it a day - or a morning
Caledonia Heron: yes, that’s fine
Pema Pera: yeah, I enjoyed the chat log very much
Pema Pera: Adams, it is posted on — let me see
Caledonia Heron: a strange day yesterday
Adams Rubble: I saw it
Caledonia Heron: not really struggling, but something. …integrating more
Pema Pera: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Chat_Logs/2008/07/2008.07.25_19%3a00_-_In_Fresh_Snow
This was the earlier session that I had refered to above.
Adams Rubble: Yes, thanks, I read it this morning :)
Caledonia Heron: integrating experience into self
Caledonia Heron: there is a potential for a schism in the group perhaps
Pema Pera: in what way?
Caledonia Heron: your comments about evaluation, critical response, there is a potential stratification of experiences, how people perceive what is happening to them in comparison to others
Pema Pera: yes, I see the danger there
Caledonia Heron: perhaps a time to tread lightly while making progress
Pema Pera: but I also see a danger in not talking about that
Pema Pera: yes, I agree
Caledonia Heron: yes, continued dialog is very important imo
Adams Rubble: I was already comparing myself privately which is one reason I took a little time off from the sessions
Caledonia Heron: sometimes if something is powerful happening a good thing is to discuss it
Caledonia Heron: there are so many places people are coming from - I don’t really know anyone…*really* in the group, just know where I’m coming from, have a hint or better where you guys are coming from
Pema Pera: the dilemma for me was this: when I talked with Maxine and Doug about Being, and when they kept suggesting that the solution toward agreement would be to come up with better and better words and metaphors, I just could not help but be honest and point out that we have to talk about the same experience — if not, there is no point . . . .
Pema Pera: and the experience is not specific at all
Pema Pera: not tied to any religion
Caledonia Heron: we will not all have the same experience in my estimation
Pema Pera: or religions in general
Pema Pera: yes, Cal, I agree
Caledonia Heron: correct - this is not about religion
Adams Rubble: I have found that I need to use my religious metaphors to understand the process
Caledonia Heron: understood
Pema Pera: but if we want to talk about Being — using that word — then we should try to get some sense of what kind of glimpses you can get of that . . . . there is a huge variety of glimpses — the one thing that would be misleading though is to tie it back into a psychological structure, that would cut it down to size until it is just a warm fuzzy cozy experience . . . .
Pema Pera: oh yes, for sure, Adams!
Caledonia Heron: the metaphors are there as a tool
Pema Pera: yes!
Caledonia Heron: a tool people use to make sense of things
Adams Rubble: So it might sound like I am talking about religion
Caledonia Heron: yes, so how to quantify these glimpses which are so varied and that some people have and others don’t
Pema Pera: yes, but a tool is something you have to work with, take in your hands — not endlessly just talk about
Adams Rubble: hmmmm
Caledonia Heron: how to make a shared vocabulary
Adams Rubble: lag
Pema Pera: we cannot quantify the glimpses, since we don’t have access to the experiences of others — and we can’t see the RL people, which would give us at least a good clue . . . . but what we CAN do is
Caledonia Heron: yes….?
Pema Pera: to compare the *description* of the glimpses
Pema Pera: and there, there are two categories
Leave it to Cal, to lighten up any conversation! :-)
Caledonia Heron: [getting Lindens to buy a clue]
Pema Pera: hahaha
Pema Pera: one category stays safely within our familiar world
Caledonia Heron: the descriptions of my experience sound so blah blah
Pema Pera: feeling, sensing, appreciating it all in nice poetic ways
Pema Pera: and that is of course very good in itself
Pema Pera: and very positive
Pema Pera: but it remains within the familiar realm
Pema Pera: and then you die
Pema Pera: The other one — which includes Cal’s way to talking! — is to burst out of the familiar picture
Caledonia Heron: so late night college existentialism
Pema Pera: it is that “bursting out” that I am after
Pema Pera: how and in what way and how deep, that is all not important
Pema Pera: I don’t want to judge that
Pema Pera: but I want to make sure we are talking about dropping the familiar straightjacket of the ordinary world view
Caledonia Heron: consider me busted out - like a huge water balloon, what a mess
Pema Pera: and I think we can, over time, agree at least on the *description* of that
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: hahaha, water in the snow
Pema Pera: and then we can sleet?
Pema Pera: *get sleet
Caledonia Heron: ice skate :)
Pema Pera: yeah! sounds like fun
Caledonia Heron: toboggan
Caledonia Heron: sp?
Pema Pera: sp??
Caledonia Heron: [sp? = questioning my spelling]
Pema Pera: [ah!]
Pema Pera: Cal, it would be so nice if you could write an email to the group, spelling out your worries, as you just said it
Pema Pera: we need input from non-Buddhists
Pema Pera: and even better non-anythingists
Pema Pera: like you
Pema Pera: would you mind writing an email?
Caledonia Heron: worries? oh, you mean observations about potential outcomes of current activities?
Adams Rubble is an anythingist!!!
Pema Pera: :)
Caledonia Heron: pantheist :)
Pema Pera: great Adams
Pema Pera: a bussist?
Pema Pera: buss or bust?
Pema Pera: bus or bust?
Caledonia Heron: :)
Adams Rubble: :)
The conversation turns to email communication among the guardians.
Pema Pera: yes, observations
Caledonia Heron: ok, sure - I will try to capture it….danger of sounding bossy or whiney notwithstanding
Pema Pera: I feel like you that we’re in a critical stage
Pema Pera: oh no, I’ll cover you, Cal :)
Caledonia Heron: yes, there is potential for attrition at this point
Pema Pera: will respond with my angle, drawing out further what I think you want to convey
Pema Pera: that would be a pity
Caledonia Heron: it’s a call for bravery a bit, imo
Pema Pera: not meant that way
Pema Pera: but it would be GREAT if you could write JUST THAT LAST SENTENCE
Pema Pera: sorry for shouting — need for coffee :)
Pema Pera: so then we can all comment on that
Pema Pera: then the topic is on the table
Caledonia Heron: lol, that’s how I’m approaching it, put on my big girl pants and deal
Pema Pera: please do!
Pema Pera: sure!!
Caledonia Heron: ha ha , I am the candy with soft center and the hard candy coating :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: the problem is balance — too much smooth talking about psychological effects triggered for me the bravery type part
Pema Pera is getting ready for a sweet breakfast real soon now!
Caledonia Heron: ok, I will write an email …a bit later in the day
Pema Pera: wonderful!
Caledonia Heron: gather my thoughts
Adams Rubble has one observation
Pema Pera: yes, Adams?
Adams Rubble: When we started the new experiment…
Adams Rubble: It made me realize, among other things, that my attendance at so many sessions was making me measure “progress” against other epople
Pema Pera: yes, adams, that is not good
Adams Rubble: It was only after I took a break that I was able to break that
Caledonia Heron: yeah, not a good barometer imo
Pema Pera: but neither is it good to let everything be a wash
Adams Rubble: Maxine has ben attending every session she can since this experiement started
Pema Pera: yes
Adams Rubble: she is doing the opposite of what I was doing
Pema Pera: interesting!
Caledonia Heron: she’s great - I didn’t get her at first - she’s really trying….and, at my house we say “you know where trying’s at” (clue = not doing)
Adams Rubble: I sent her a note telling her about my experience this morning
Caledonia Heron: very kind Adams :)
Adams Rubble: Maxine has helped me
It was heartwarming to hear Adams and Cal talking this way. Once more I was reminded of the remarkable magic that seems to hold together our group of guardians.
Pema Pera: yes, indeed!
Pema Pera: well, it is really difficult how to know how best to proceed . . . but I hear what you both say
Pema Pera: for me, it isn’t a matter of a a scale
Pema Pera: rather one bit
Pema Pera: yes or no
Caledonia Heron: on or off
Pema Pera: concerning looking beyond the usual given framework of self vs. other, person in a world, psychological interpretations
Pema Pera: or bursting out of that
Pema Pera: and I am struggling with ways of pointing that out
Adams Rubble: But maybe she just needs a little time to work it out
Pema Pera: How do you think we can point that out while still leaving everyone their own room for growth?
Caledonia Heron: a bit of “struggle” going around, in various permutations
Pema Pera: yes
Caledonia Heron: yes, can see the value of forcing the hand and…pretty arbitrary
Adams Rubble: I understand your delemma, Pema
Pema Pera: I guess the best I can do, after having made my point so far, is to backpedal a bit on the harshness, while sticking to the main idea . . . .
Pema Pera: so if you both would write something to the email group
Adams Rubble: oh my
Pema Pera: that would give me a great opportunity
Pema Pera: hahaha
Pema Pera: to comment on how I agree with the need for natural growth
Pema Pera: giving each other room
Pema Pera: not being judgmental
Caledonia Heron: mmm, I’d say stick to your guns …. you went take no prisoner mode, might as well play it out, you can modify with our comments
Pema Pera: since I realize that otherwise what I wrote could easily be misinterpreted
Pema Pera: thanks, Cal!
Caledonia Heron: it sounded pretty hardball
Pema Pera: too much so?
Caledonia Heron: first thought was yes, on reflection, it’s what’s on your mind, it’s out there, seems pretty ok to me
Caledonia Heron: it would be disingenuous to not say so
Adams Rubble: I think I am uncomfortable because, although I had some winderful epxeriences this week, I still have so far to go to understand the whole
I just couldn’t help to respond to that — not me, Pema/Piet, but something that wanted to express itself clearly. So I again stepped aside, so to speak, and let my(non)self speak. Cal fell into the same rhythm, and we jammed.
Pema Pera: no Adams
Pema Pera: that’s not the point
Pema Pera: in fact
Pema Pera: the only point is to drop the idea of progress
Caledonia Heron: you’re already there Adams - how I see it anyway
Caledonia Heron: on or off
Caledonia Heron: maybe that’s the point
Adams Rubble: I don’t understand the “on or off”, “yes or no”
Caledonia Heron: you get it or you don’t
Pema Pera: He is standing at your front door and He is knocking — while you are packing your luggage, ready for a long journey trying to catch up with others, ready to run out of the back door to be on your way . . . . . please don’t ! ! ! !
Pema Pera: that is the on-off
Caledonia Heron: think of it as a train, it leaves at 5:06 - if you’re there at 5:07 , you’re not on it, on or off
Pema Pera: on is opening the door, off is comparing yourself with others
Adams Rubble: that is beautifully said, Pema
Adams Rubble: yes Cal
Pema Pera: well said Cal
Adams Rubble: me running out the back door to find a bus
Pema Pera: YES!!
Pema Pera: you’re ignoring Him!
Pema Pera: very literally
Adams Rubble: well, fuguratively
Pema Pera: no literally
Caledonia Heron: really trying not to get sidetracked by religious reference
I knew we were testing Cal’s patience, given that religion is not her cup of tea, but in the context that was the only language that was appropriate for that moment.
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: sorry, just one coordinate frame, Cal :)
Pema Pera: it is literal
Pema Pera: it is more real than your body
Caledonia Heron: I know, personal problem :)
Pema Pera: more real even than your mind
Pema Pera: yeah, Cal, I have my own hangups too!
Pema Pera: not figuratively
Pema Pera: that’s the psychologizing tendency I am fighting against claw and beak :)
Caledonia Heron: lol, caw caw
Pema Pera: ah, in Videoranch I was a macao
Caledonia Heron: picturing ravens swooping down from mountains
Pema Pera: sp?
Pema Pera: yeah, there you go
Caledonia Heron: I went to videoranch the other night - your house is still there
Pema Pera: NOT figurative
Pema Pera: but Adams, I am dead serious
Pema Pera: does that make sense?
Pema Pera: oh wow, Piet’s Hut!
A flashback to how I got into virtual worlds. A year and a few months ago, I had tried to set up a forerunner of Play-as-Being in Videoranch, after which I tried Qwaq Forums, before finally finding the right place here in Second Life.
Adams Rubble: I know you’re serious
Caledonia Heron: :)
Adams Rubble: don;t agree with the literal though :)
Pema Pera: but does it make sense?
Adams Rubble: yes, it makes sense
Pema Pera: okay, in what way not agree?
Adams Rubble: no real bus
Pema Pera: let’s see whether we can figure this out
Adams Rubble: no real door
Adams Rubble: figuratively a bus
Adams Rubble: but I understand your point very well
Pema Pera: let me try: the knocking is more real than you; in comparison to the knocking that is super-real, your body and mind are figurative, in comparison
Pema Pera: your body and mind, life, money, family, job, anything is like a dream, like smoke, like reflection on a pond, compared to the knocking
Pema Pera: and you go out and play with all of those while ignoring the knocking
Caledonia Heron: :) big knocking
Pema Pera: amazing
Pema Pera: truly amazing
Pema Pera: incredibly amazing
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: can you see that?
Adams Rubble: not that far, yet
Pema Pera: can you see the dream/smoke/reflection nature of all that you see, know, feel?
Pema Pera: impermanent?
Adams Rubble: I see an impermanence to those things
Pema Pera: you will die, it will die?
Adams Rubble: and a permanence to Being
Pema Pera: we can say God for now
Adams Rubble: so in that sense I understand
Pema Pera: (Cal will plug her ears)
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: is God more real than you?
Caledonia Heron: I wonder if I will hold it all, I am overwhelmed at a vastness, like the feeling you get looking over a great height, it will overcome me, sometimes I see farther than other times, before I pull back….maybe I will go all the way one time, will I die?
Wol had found a rather dramatic moment to reappear. I had seen her coming on-line again, and had offered a tp.
Wol Euler: hi hi
Adams Rubble: I have trouble with you saying that the family is figurative
Pema Pera: Hi Wol!
Adams Rubble: Hi Wol
Wol Euler: did you mean to invite me, Pema, or was that left over from last session?
Pema Pera: yes, I meant to invite you, Wol :)
Wol Euler smiles.
Pema Pera: yes, Cal, something will die
Pema Pera: in the sense of disappear, drop away
Caledonia Heron: hi Wol :)
Wol Euler: hi cal, adams.
Adams Rubble: The part that I don;t get is that I am not ready to see that I am not real
Pema Pera: namely your sense of you being it, doing it
Pema Pera: the you you are identifying with, Adams, who is speaking now, that you can NEVER be ready
Caledonia Heron: I see it, I be it, I pull back, sometimes less than others…..I have no tools or context to hold it
Pema Pera: can NEVER wake up
Pema Pera: you can’t hold it Cal, with no tools whatsoever
Pema Pera: it is not a matter of holding onto, that idea can only slow us down
Pema Pera: it is so very simple
Pema Pera: too simple for us to easily see, at first
Caledonia Heron: not actually hold it , hold it as to know it
Pema Pera: So Adams
Pema Pera: you are really going to leave the back door, looking over your shoulder
Pema Pera: and telling the voice in front “I am not ready”?
Pema Pera: Are you really going to do that?
Adams Rubble doesn’t want to do that
Pema Pera: but you just said you are not ready
Pema Pera: meaning that you still put your trust in a future stronger you who one day may be ready
Caledonia Heron: a long time ago I asked myself “when will I be ready” and thought how about now
Pema Pera: that is the blasphemy
Pema Pera: ignoring the knocking
Adams Rubble: Well, you said I am not ready because I said I have a hard time accepting that I and my family are not real
Pema Pera: believing in the false god of a future better self
Pema Pera: ah, yes,
Pema Pera: thanks!
Pema Pera: great point, family, and very important!
Wol Euler: “blasphemy” sounds a bit strong… (sorry, jumping into the middle is alsawys terminologically fraught)
Pema Pera: sorry Wol
Caledonia Heron: it’s temporal, small picture
Pema Pera: this is part of an ongoing dialogue that Adams and I have had
Pema Pera: :)
Wol Euler: ok
Yes, I was well aware of sounding rather forceful, but I had no choice, it was not `me’ talking, not Pema/Piet.
Adams Rubble: I am getting some tough love, Wol. Just duck for a moment
Pema Pera: hehe
Caledonia Heron: :) be brave
Wol Euler: lol
Caledonia Heron: strong hear
Caledonia Heron: *heart
Pema Pera: so family, yes, part of the same picture though
Pema Pera: you can try to help your familiy, each moment of your life
Pema Pera: but they are not permanent either
Adams Rubble: I understand the impermanance
Pema Pera: your children have been given to you as a kind of loan or invitation, not possession
Adams Rubble: yes
Pema Pera: you are responsible yes
Pema Pera: not responsible to save them forever
Adams Rubble: yes, to a degree now, not as much
Pema Pera: only responsible to do the best you can at each moment
Caledonia Heron: lol, kids on loan
What would a serious discussion be without a Caledonia?
Adams Rubble: yes
Adams Rubble: yes Cal
Wol Euler believes that people have the right not to be saved.
Pema Pera: but how does that contradict what we said before then?
Pema Pera: mortgage more than loan, Cal, 30 years?
Adams Rubble: They are impermanent but they exist
Caledonia Heron: at least :)
Pema Pera: does anything exist?
Adams Rubble: oh my
Pema Pera: truly exist, beyond relative framework?
Caledonia Heron: amortized over….
Pema Pera: beyond the story they appear in?
Pema Pera: what could that kind of existence even mean?
Pema Pera: can a figure out of a novel walk out of the novel?
Adams Rubble: no, of course not
Pema Pera: so it does not exist
Pema Pera: in our world
Caledonia Heron: [reminded of woody allen movie, where characters walk out]
Pema Pera: but it does exist within the novel, and very meaningfully so
Pema Pera: lol Cal !
:)
Pema Pera: your responsibility for your children is solely in each moment to do the very best you can — and then when you make mistakes, accept that too
Pema Pera: that is all
Pema Pera: any further undergirding in terms of CONCEPTS of existence only waters that down
Pema Pera: weakens it
Pema Pera: and is not true either, in any absolute ultimate sense
Pema Pera: and is pernicious
Pema Pera: since it then can hold you back
Pema Pera: tie your hand to the backdoor
Pema Pera: and you feel you can’t open the front door
Caledonia Heron: yes, a true thing do the best you can all the time - that’s all there is
Pema Pera: that’s all there is
Pema Pera: the rest IS blasphemy
Pema Pera: sorry Wol
Pema Pera: it hurts you
Pema Pera: it hurts your children
Caledonia Heron: the ultimate code of conduct :)
Pema Pera: if you open the front door, and walk with God
Pema Pera: you can give your children so much more
Pema Pera: each moment they see you
Pema Pera: they will be nourished so much more
Pema Pera: if you have your front door open
Pema Pera: i get tears in my eyes right now, thinking that you hurt them because of wanting to protect them
Pema Pera: not opening the front door for their sake . . . . .
Caledonia Heron: maybe you “hurt” them by not opening the door
Pema Pera: yes
Caledonia Heron: [wondering what my kid is doing]
Adams Rubble is thinking that if she could find the #%^&#* door handle she’d open the door
Caledonia Heron: lol, sounds like an army ad…be all you can be
Caledonia Heron: ahhh, I know this riddle
Caledonia Heron: I think
Caledonia Heron: there’s no finding, it’s right there
Caledonia Heron: go
Caledonia Heron: jump
Caledonia Heron: fly
Caledonia Heron: accept
Caledonia Heron: accept the offer
Caledonia Heron: and it’s done
Pema Pera: yes
Caledonia Heron: like the religion stories
Adams Rubble: :)
A new suggestion arose.
Pema Pera: you can even ask Him to open the door Adams. Tell him “sorry, busy right now, but please do come in, the door is unlocked!” How about trying that for the next three days?
Pema Pera: just try it
Pema Pera: don’t tell yourself you don’t know how to do it
Pema Pera: try it the way a baby learns to talk
Pema Pera: babble
Adams Rubble: OK, you have me listening right now
Pema Pera: until you can speak
Pema Pera: keep babbling
Pema Pera: He knows what you mean
Pema Pera: do you really think you can babble to Him and he wouldn’t understand what you are trying to say?
Pema Pera: perhaps Cal and Wol and me won’t understand
Pema Pera: but He will
Pema Pera: and most likely we will too
Caledonia Heron: ["He" has Babbler :)]
:>) — the greatest pun of the morning, refering to SL’s real-time translation device.
Pema Pera: hahahahaha
Pema Pera: LOL Cal
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: you’re out of here!
Caledonia Heron: damned to hell
Pema Pera: at least
Caledonia Heron: first stop
Pema Pera: bus to hell
Adams Rubble is not about to give up trying
Caledonia Heron: highway to hell
Caledonia Heron: hell in a handbasket
Pema Pera: like a bat in hell
Pema Pera: Adams, can you say more?
Caledonia Heron: bats in the hellfry
Pema Pera: about not giving up trying?
In true PaB style, rapidly switching between lively laughter and dead serious.
Adams Rubble: One sec, Now back to how this started…
Pema Pera: yes?
Adams Rubble: do you really want me to be emailing the group about this???
Pema Pera: either way
Pema Pera: not necessary, but if you find something you’d be happy to share, then sure by all means
Caledonia Heron: it’s a way to stay all connected…we are very fragmented
Adams Rubble: On the trying, I am listening and will try anything that might work
Caledonia Heron: time to group huddle maybe
Adams Rubble: not much else to say there
Pema Pera: yes, Cal, I think so!
Pema Pera: either way, Adams
I then got an inspiration to sum up what we had been talking about.
Pema Pera: Forget about email
Caledonia Heron: tag up, synch up, reset
Pema Pera: forget about anything for the next three days, say
Pema Pera: Only one thing is important: Don’t give up and completely give up, both
Pema Pera: 1) Don’t give up means:
Pema Pera: don’t give up babbling and asking Him to open the door
Pema Pera: after all, you don’t know where the damn handle is, you just said so
Pema Pera: don’t tell me
Pema Pera: tell Him
Pema Pera: and keep telling Him
Pema Pera: he can’t refuse
Pema Pera: is like wax in your hand if you seriously ask
Pema Pera: but you can’t ask half-way
Pema Pera: can’t keep your hand on the backdoor handle
Caledonia Heron: ah, the fulcrum
Pema Pera: now 2) give up completely
Caledonia Heron: not half-way
Pema Pera: give up any attempt to open the door yourself
Pema Pera: that would be very impolite
Pema Pera: asking Him to open the door and meanwhile trying tohelp him
Pema Pera: as if he were some invalid needing help or a child who wouldn’t know how to get in
Pema Pera: You see, Adams
Pema Pera: we all make only one mistake
Pema Pera: we try to help God
Wol Euler: !
Pema Pera: if we stop doing that, totally stop that, we’re okay
Pema Pera: and finally he can help us
Pema Pera: for the first time
Pema Pera: So if you don’t mind, three days of totally trying to babble and completely not trying to help God
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: looking forward to reading your blog!
At first I had not planned to add all this to the log, but if occurred to me that in fact it might be relevant to others in PaB as well.
Pema Pera: oh, btw, would any of you mind if I would add some parts of these dialogues to the blog entry? I’m the scribe today
Pema Pera: Perhaps some of this may be useful for others too
Pema Pera: what do you think?
Adams Rubble: oh my
Pema Pera: don’t have to
Pema Pera: just a thought
Pema Pera: Adams, your problem is our problem too
Pema Pera: my problem too
Caledonia Heron: [flip flopping]
Pema Pera: everybody’s problem
Caledonia Heron: yes true
Wol Euler has said nothing noteworthy, but from my side ok.
Pema Pera: you just have the courage to say it
Caledonia Heron: yes, and we will see what is in the blog so we don’t repeat in email?
Pema Pera: hahahahah, CAL!
Pema Pera: you’re so funny
Pema Pera: and clever
Pema Pera: shrewd is the word
Caledonia Heron: :)
At that time I thought: what a great trick Cal found to not have to write! She later told me that she meant that the context will now be on the blog, so that an email can be shorter and leave out the background context. Sorry, Cal :)
Pema Pera: I could email to you first Adam
Pema Pera: then you can censor what you don’t like
Pema Pera: but I don’t want to push
Pema Pera: if you’re happy, fine, I will include some parts
Pema Pera: if you’re not sure, I won’t
Pema Pera: talking freely here is far more important
Adams Rubble: I know what I am agreeing to, Pema
Pema Pera: and most important is to babble and not help this G guy
Pema Pera: but you prefer me not to include parts of this talk, did I get that right, Adams, just trying to parse
Pema Pera: which would be fine, really
Adams Rubble: The part that is realted to PaB is fine
Caledonia Heron: seems fair :)
Adams Rubble: I would like to raise something else for your consideration with great respect
Pema Pera: yes, please?
Adams Rubble: You are feeling the urge to do this while somewhat sleep deprived
Adams Rubble: do you think that might be having any effect (and I don;t mean for you to answer)
Pema Pera: you mean that that make me speak more strongly right now?
Pema Pera: If so, I don’t think so
Pema Pera: ah, okay
Pema Pera: perhaps
Caledonia Heron: Pema wants some playmates, where he hangs out, in the Be stream :)
Pema Pera: could be, as Faenik would say
Adams Rubble: It is something to think about
Wol Euler agrees that PP seems unusually … determined today.
Adams Rubble: You have created something wonderful here
Pema Pera: yes, thank you.
Pema Pera: and thank you
Pema Pera: (to the second sentence :)
Pema Pera: yes, I realize that I am balancing at the edge of disaster
Pema Pera: but let me ask something in turn
Pema Pera: the way I spoke today just now to you
Pema Pera: is that something that would be better toned down too?
Pema Pera: honest question!
Adams Rubble: yes
Pema Pera: really?
I was glad that we could talk about this, and that I could get feedback, as well as getting a chance to say more about how I felt speaking the way I did.
Caledonia Heron: I know you’re not asking me and, I think it depends who you’re talking to
Adams Rubble: I don;t really know. I got over a really major hump this week. I do wonder if it is that urgent that this be done quickly
Adams Rubble: The I don’t know part is that I don;t know what is on the other side of the door, so to speak
Pema Pera: but you said you didn’t know how to find that damned #$%^@& handle . . . .
Pema Pera: why would you want to slow down?
Caledonia Heron: who cares Adams, aren’t you curious?
Pema Pera: prolong the pain?
Pema Pera: pull the bandaid slooooooowly
Pema Pera: that’s a lot more painful!
Caledonia Heron: every little hair sloooowly coming out
Pema Pera: yeah, gently so, with great care and support
Pema Pera: auch
Pema Pera: sp?
I later realized guess the English spelling is “ouch” :)
Adams Rubble: I need time to think about what you said today, now. I was trying to honestly answer your question
Pema Pera: yes, and I appreciate it!
Pema Pera: and maybe I should tone down
Wol Euler: back
Pema Pera: for you, I’m of course happy to do so, but I doubt that you really want that — but we can come back to that in a few days
Pema Pera: I very much appreciate your openness
Pema Pera: and honesty
Adams Rubble: I am accepting what you have to offer, I just have a bit of trouble understanding it sometimes
Pema Pera: as I have said many times, in emails and in the group
Pema Pera: of course :)
Pema Pera: otherwise it would not have any value, if you could understand it already
Pema Pera: this is a 1-0 one-bit question
Pema Pera: it doesn’t make sense until you jump
Caledonia Heron: I am trying to understand the reluctance I’m picking up….what is gained, what is lost, the cost, the payoff attached to that
Pema Pera: and then it is trivial
Adams Rubble: I think I saw a glimpse this week
Pema Pera: yes, you did, as far as I can understand, and I was delighted to see that
Pema Pera: like previous glimpses
Adams Rubble: Maybe I have some other barrier there
Pema Pera: otherwise I wouldn’t share what I am sharing now
Pema Pera: not maybe lol
Pema Pera: of course you do
Pema Pera: we all do
Caledonia Heron: it’s that damn door
Adams Rubble: between me and the door handle
Adams Rubble: yes Cal
Wol Euler nods
Caledonia Heron: [kidding]
Adams Rubble: So I have to work out what it is
Pema Pera: yes
Caledonia Heron: or not
The question of what can take time is a crucial one.
Adams Rubble: That may take time
Pema Pera: no!
Pema Pera: cannot take time
Pema Pera: the only thing that can take time is you saying “I am not ready for it, God”
Adams Rubble: So you are pushing me because I got this far?
Pema Pera: that can take days, weeks months
Pema Pera: of course, yes!
Pema Pera: I see you standing face to face with God
Pema Pera: but you turn your face away
Pema Pera: what a shame!
Adams Rubble: Yes, we exchanged smiles
Pema Pera: there is no door
Pema Pera: there is no handle
Pema Pera: those are crutches
Pema Pera: we can throw those away
Pema Pera: get it over with
Pema Pera: He is here
Pema Pera: stop resisting by thinking you can be the hero
Pema Pera: you can’t do anything whatever
Pema Pera: so just stop
Pema Pera: since there is nothing that needs be done
Pema Pera: but continue babbling
Pema Pera: just stop “working”
Pema Pera: you’re under age
Pema Pera: you’re a baby
Pema Pera: no work permit
Pema Pera: don’t let us watch you working Adams!
Pema Pera: but do babble
Pema Pera: keep babbling
Pema Pera: please
Pema Pera trying to suddenly be polite
Caledonia Heron: that ship has sailed
On the difference between listening and babbling.
Adams Rubble: One minor point. Yesterday you told me to stop looking and just listen for three days. Today you want me to babble. They are not inconsistent with each other but I should concentrate on one
Adams Rubble: I can babble and listen at the same time
Pema Pera: better to babble
Pema Pera: I said listen because that seemed the best course then
Pema Pera: but now we got a lot further
Adams Rubble: lag
Pema Pera: and now babbling will be faster
Adams Rubble: OK
Pema Pera: more direct
Pema Pera: listening is still an act
Adams Rubble: I will babble as I have never babbled before
Pema Pera: we think we stop talking
Pema Pera: and stop being active
Pema Pera: passively listening
Pema Pera: but drop the expectation of listening
Pema Pera: and only babble, yes
Pema Pera: closer
Adams Rubble: I did hear something today
Pema Pera: thanks, Adams!
Pema Pera: I probably wont’ put anything of this on the blog though
Wol Euler: sorry, I must go again :-(
Pema Pera: seems to personal at least for now
Pema Pera: thanks for joining us Wol
Adams Rubble: bye Wol
Wol Euler: perhaps at 1pm!
Wol Euler: bye, and happy babbling.
Pema Pera: ah yes, another session . . .
Pema Pera: :)
Caledonia Heron: [ok, you guys hash it out, I've looked at this maanicure long enough]
Pema Pera: hehe
Adams Rubble: bye Cal :)
Time for Caledonia to leave.
Pema Pera: time for my lunch by now
Adams Rubble: yes, you must be starving
Pema Pera: no
Pema Pera: not really now
Pema Pera: this kind of conversation gives me more nourishment than anything else
Pema Pera: you see, I am talking to myself as much as to you
Pema Pera: and it helps me to see more and more and more too
Adams Rubble: oh
Pema Pera: it is a yes-no step to begin to see this
Pema Pera: then the rest of your life is a kind of celebration
Pema Pera: celebration of what is real
Pema Pera: but without measure of success :)
Pema Pera: though with increasing clarity
Pema Pera: every week I can honestly say that I see more
Pema Pera: the least I can do in return is to have a conversation like this
Pema Pera: and then that plows back to in the circle
Adams Rubble: This has been quite a week for the entire group
Pema Pera: yes!
Pema Pera: almost too much
Pema Pera: but perhaps just right
Pema Pera: we are all dying
Adams Rubble: Things are going quite well
Pema Pera: we don’t have infinite time
Pema Pera: thanks, Adams!
Pema Pera: Glad to hear that
Pema Pera: And I love your place here!
Pema Pera: perfect seting to have this conversation
Adams Rubble: thanks, it is the northern part of PaB land right now
Pema Pera: yes, I saw
Adams Rubble: on the frontier
Pema Pera: I bought this piece a month or so ago
Pema Pera: after long negotiation
Adams Rubble: it is beautiful
Pema Pera: glad to hear that!
On another topic.
Pema Pera: I still have to laugh thinking about your dialogue between av and typist
Pema Pera: that was such a hoot
Adams Rubble: Well, most enlightening (if I may use that word)
Pema Pera: and at the same time it was a profound teaching
Pema Pera: about wearing identity lightly
Pema Pera: yes, you may
Pema Pera: you should
Adams Rubble: ah, yes that too
Pema Pera: it is an important step on the way
Adams Rubble: ahhh lag
Pema Pera: towards dropping everything
Adams Rubble: It helped me get around bariers
Pema Pera: seriously, you have helped more people than you think with that — and when you leave your blog up, over the years you will help others many others
Pema Pera: to loosen up
Pema Pera: well, I’d better get something to eat
Pema Pera: it is rare for me to be given a chance to talk this way
Pema Pera: with somebody who is so close, like you
Pema Pera: and so seriously willing to continue
Pema Pera: thank you!
Adams Rubble: thank you. It was good, although you will undestand, a little unsettling
Pema Pera: of course!
Pema Pera: that was the whole point!
Adams Rubble: but you wouldn’t have it any other way, I think :)
Adams Rubble: yes
Pema Pera: if it were not, it wouldn’t work
Pema Pera: I’m a dentist, I’m afraid
Adams Rubble: ouch
Pema Pera: pulling half-hard on a tooth would be a very cruel thing to do
Pema Pera: but one firm pull may be the end of suffering
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: I mean it
Pema Pera: but let’s not get into another round hehe
Adams Rubble: no please
Pema Pera: better say bye
Pema Pera: take care!
Adams Rubble: bye :)
Pema Pera: and thanks for your hospitality here!
Adams Rubble: you too, have a good lunch
Adams Rubble: np
