2008.07.14 13:00 - A Spiralic Path

That afternoon, Steven was the guardian. The comments are his.

A pretty big group assembled at the Play as Being pavilion today.
Adams Rubble: hello Rajah :)
Rajah Yalin: hi all
Adams Rubble: hello Doug :)
Gaya Ethaniel: hi Rajah
doug Sosa: yes hi.
Quilty Bookmite: Bala is swimming.
Rajah Yalin: nice and laggy day huh
Quilty Bookmite: hi Stim.
Adams Rubble: Hello Stim :)
Stim Morane: Hi all!
Quilty Bookmite: Yes. :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: hi doug
Gaya Ethaniel: hi Stim
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Doug
doug Sosa: hi gaya and the rest

Adams asked me about a practice mentioned by one of my RL students, but we didn’t explore that here.

Gaya Ethaniel: hi Bala
Adams Rubble: Hi Bala
Quilty Bookmite: hi Bala
Rajah Yalin: everyone meet Bala if you havent yet
Moon Fargis: helo everyone
Adams Rubble: Nice to meet you Bala
Rajah Yalin: hi Moon
Quilty Bookmite: hi Moon
Adams Rubble: Hi Moon
Stim Morane: Hi Moon, Bala
Bala Muircastle: smiles
Gaya Ethaniel: hi Moon
Windchime Bronze 12: Moon Fargis picked the option ‘Sounds’.
Windchime Bronze 12: Moon Fargis picked the option ‘Sound OFF’.

Time to get going. As it happened, our first topic was a point of etiquette.

Stim Morane: So, where shall we start today?
doug Sosa: I find saying “hi” at the beginning to everyone rather awkward.
Moon Fargis: hi!
Stim Morane: What would you suggest, Doug?
Rajah Yalin: you say goodbye, I say hello
doug Sosa: is not just arriving among friends enough?
Rajah Yalin: i find saying bye very awkward
doug Sosa: Or even better, because the “hi”s get in the way of simply observing.
Gaya Ethaniel: new comers may get confused
Rajah Yalin: hi Delani
Adams Rubble: Hello Delani
Gaya Ethaniel: hi Delani
Stim Morane: Hi Delani
Delani Gabardini: hi everyone
Moon Fargis: wb delani
Delani Gabardini: ty moon
Gaya Ethaniel: would it be possible to have an automated greeting to anyone arriving?
Quilty Bookmite: I guess it does make newcomers feel welcome. aftet that it is a bit formulaeic (sp?)
Rajah Yalin: it can happn gaya
Adams Rubble: I think it is friendly
Delani Gabardini: yes I too
Quilty Bookmite: I don;t like the idea of an automated greeting. Too many things talk to me already that shouldn’t/
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Delani Gabardini: haha
Adams Rubble: It kind of bonds us as a group
Delani Gabardini: very important
Quilty Bookmite: nobody should feel obliged to say it though.
Quilty Bookmite: If they do it loses its meaning.
Gaya Ethaniel: i have to say i felt very welcomed when everyone said hello when i first came compared to other sims i’ve been to
Stim Morane: oh, I assumed it was just a SL convention.
Adams Rubble: No this is a friendly group :)
Stim Morane: Good.
Delani Gabardini: besides many of meditate together also
Stim Morane: Anyway, it’s a point we can consider … what else is new?

As it turned out, Delani did have a suggestion.

Delani Gabardini: speaking of meditation I want to bring something to eveyones attention
Delani Gabardini: may i speak
Stim Morane: Please
Rajah Yalin listening
Delani Gabardini: on July 17th at 8:00 PM (everyone will have to translate to their time zone) there is an initative for everyone to meditate together
Delani Gabardini: 8:00
Delani Gabardini: it is worldwide
Delani Gabardini: we did it last year also
Delani Gabardini: great energy
Delani Gabardini: meditate for world peace
Delani Gabardini: i hope u can all join in
Quilty Bookmite: 8 p.m. SLT?
Delani Gabardini: no i only know it as 8:00 PM California USA time
Quilty Bookmite: I think that is 4 a.m. for me. :-)
Rajah Yalin: thats the same time
Delani Gabardini: wow
Rajah Yalin: 8PM SLT is 8PM Cali time
Delani Gabardini: set your alarm quilty
Delani Gabardini: yes u are correct raj
Delani Gabardini: it is important for all to make the effort
Quilty Bookmite: I will try but I also need my sleep. :-)
Delani Gabardini: ah but u may sleep better if u do this
Delani Gabardini: ok that is all i have to say - ty
Quilty Bookmite: No. My daughter won’t let me. :-)
Moon Fargis: _/!\_

Fael entered at this point. We were sitting without much discussion, and soon she found a topic for us. I have left the remainder of the chat without comments, since it’s not clear to me that they’re needed.

Fael Illyar: Hi everyone :)
Quilty Bookmite: Thank you Delani.
Adams Rubble: Hi Fael :)
Rajah Yalin: hi fael
Delani Gabardini: hey fael
Stim Morane: Hi Fael
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Fael.
Gaya Ethaniel: hi Fael
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Moon Fargis: wb fael
Fael Illyar: wow, packed today :)
Quilty Bookmite: Still room.
Rajah Yalin: Bala meet Fael, Fael meet Bala
Fael Illyar: Hi Bala :)
Bala Muircastle: smiles
Quilty Bookmite: All these people and no subject - yet. :-)
Fael Illyar: … really?
Rajah Yalin: lol
Moon Fargis: hmm we talk in silence
Gaya Ethaniel: Fael we were left with 4 subjects
Gaya Ethaniel: from last mtg
Fael Illyar: allright, let me dig up my notes
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Rajah Yalin hands Fael a shovel.
Fael Illyar: ok … hidden assumptions and why ask if Being is like something.
Adams Rubble: :)
Fael Illyar: It was Adams who asked, I think?
Fael Illyar: I was talking about hidden assumptions.
Gaya Ethaniel: yes
Adams Rubble is goig to leave shortly
Moon Fargis: hidden asumptions?
Delani Gabardini: i need some clarification on the topic
Fael Illyar: yes, many sentences have hidden assumptions. I often pay more attention to that than the literal part
Delani Gabardini: like a hidden agenda
Delani Gabardini: ?
Faenik loves wells!
Fael Illyar: well, if you ask “where does your lap go when you stand up?” the question is assuming there is a lap after that.
Quilty Bookmite: I THINK I know what you mean. We do constantly assume things. It’sa probably easier that way.
Moon Fargis: tis there really alap (C) avatsu
Moon Fargis: is
Fael Illyar: hidden assumptions when people speak often tell a lot about the speaker’s beliefs
Quilty Bookmite: anyone afraid to say something? :-)
Fael Illyar: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ok i understand what we mean by hidden assumption now so what was the question relating to it?
Stim Morane: the most important such assumptions are the ones we hold in life, assumptions that bind us to a limited and unawake form a being.
Stim Morane: *of being
Fael Illyar: Pema thought the question “is Being like *insert a word here*?” needs consideration on why to ask such a question.
Fael Illyar: and thought hidden assumptions would be related
Moon Fargis looks at the trees and enjoys being being
Stim Morane: I see. Yes, the issue of “Being” does require some consideration of our tendency to think of it as a thing.
Quilty Bookmite: he’s probably right. Well, I assume he is.
Fael Illyar: yes, the question has a hidden assumption that it is.
Stim Morane: a similar point comes up with “Tao”.
Storm Nordwind is Online
Stim Morane: Anyway, our existence is a mass of such assumptions, and they do restrict us.
doug Sosa: yet give us freedom too.
Quilty Bookmite: They also help us function in society.
Fael Illyar: freedom, how?
Stim Morane: yes, without assumptions, we couldn’t function well in many domains.
Fael Illyar: How about acting like you had assumptions but not having them, really?
Gaya Ethaniel: would assumption often provides tools to communicate? would be difficult otherwise (whether right or wrong thoughts etc)
doug Sosa: because we are trapped if we are speechless in a slightly more narrow world.
Quilty Bookmite: There is a set of common assumptions in a particular society. Without them we are constantly explaining ourselves.
Fael Illyar: you don’t need an assumption to act like you do :)
Gaya Ethaniel: i have a personal example
Gaya Ethaniel: pears in europe are assumed to be round by majority
Quilty Bookmite: you do to communicate effectively, Fael.
Gaya Ethaniel: *irregular shape
Stim Morane: Even on the level of sense perception and body functions and motions, assumptions are important. Without shortcuts, we would be stuck. But again, the assumptions that may matter most here are those concerning our unconsciously-acquired and limiting approaches to being, to living.
Adams Rubble slips away silently whispering goodbye dear friends
Gaya Ethaniel: though in asia it’s round and we don’t have irregular shape pears
Stim Morane: Bye Adams
Delani Gabardini: bye adams
Quilty Bookmite: bye Adams.
Gaya Ethaniel: when i didn’t get this fact, i couldn’t understand by what people meant by ‘pear shape’
Faenik: could be
Delani Gabardini: Hi dianket
Dakini Rhode is Online
Moon Fargis: hi dianket
Dianket Wobbit: Hi dear, hi all
Moon Fargis slurps his tea
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Dianket
Stim Morane: Hi!
Gaya Ethaniel: hi Dianket
doug Sosa: belll says retreat.
Gaya Ethaniel: does my example make sense in terms of assumption in communication?
Fael Illyar: Gaya, that’s more of a communications issue, really. Visible assumptions.
GreenTea(Matcha): Mmmhh… enjoy the best green tea Quilty Bookmite
Fael Illyar: it’s part of learning the language.
Quilty Bookmite: Are you talking specifically about Being, Fael?
Fael Illyar: it’s possible to communicate like you have an assumption, even if you don’t.
Dakini Rhode is Offline
Fael Illyar: no, not right now.
Fael Illyar: with Being, assuming doesn’t work.
Fael Illyar: assume anything and it’ll mislead.
Faenik loves wells!
Quilty Bookmite: True.
Gaya Ethaniel: possibly not the best ex
Moon Fargis: fael: what makes you feel you need to think about such things? like assumption? will you think about such things while you are in meditation or pab ? I aks becasue sometimes, too much thinking about things gives them a meaning they never should have, never have and never will have, more meanings in our minds on different things makes it harder to let go of it, either in pab or in mediation or in life, sure there are thing wich mind have to clear itself about, but rellly this topic is something unconform for me today
Moon Fargis: like thinking about why gras grows… just, let it grow:)
Fael Illyar: I’m only thinking about these because I started noticing that I realize where people are going wrong by looking at the hidden assumptions in their talk.
Moon Fargis: talk isnt perfect:)
Moon Fargis: no language is
Moon Fargis: exept binary maybe :)
Moon Fargis: 00101 0100100 010 10
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Fael Illyar: and no, I do not think about this sort of thing when I meditate or PaB
Moon Fargis: well then lets all take a deep breath, look at the nice trees, accept that language isnt perfect, and maybe enjoy a nice tea:)
Fael Illyar: Moon, you’re sounding disturbed.
Cup Of Green Tea whispers: Ah! Steaming Green Tea!
Moon Fargis: i am :)
Delani Gabardini: Ok so what is the difference between hidden assumptions and hidden perceptions
Fael Illyar: hidden perception?
Delani Gabardini: yes
Delani Gabardini: what we assume vs what we perceive
green tea Bizen whispers: Thank you
Dianket Wobbit: perceptions comes fisth
Fael Illyar: Moon, I’m thinking this is a topic you do need to think about. Precisely because it disturbs you.
Dianket Wobbit: firsth*
Delani Gabardini: so we perceive first and then assume, u are saying dianket
Dianket Wobbit: yes
Dianket Wobbit: and in betwin there is a space
Dianket Wobbit: longer or shorter
Moon Fargis: fael: see thats maybe the zennie in me who says.. “hmm just sit” :)
Delani Gabardini: which lately takes up most of my head
Dianket Wobbit: depends of the claryness
Fael Illyar: assumption easily overrides perception if you’re not careful.
Delani Gabardini: but are not both unreal / unrealistic
Fael Illyar: Moon, feeling uncomfortable sounds like a self-image in danger of collapsing to me.
Delani Gabardini: both lead us to more and more illusion
Delani Gabardini: strong statement fael
Quilty Bookmite: Perception in terms of the senses is real, is pure.
Delani Gabardini: but perception is generally corrupted
Dianket Wobbit: sure the wrong perception, but there is the wright perception too
Quilty Bookmite: TIs that what oyu are talking about Delani?
Delani Gabardini: i am not sure about that
Quilty Bookmite: Perception is corrupted by our own interpretations or assumptions.
Faenik: why not?
Delani Gabardini: Moon what r u doing?
Moon Fargis: trying to form a sentence:)
Delani Gabardini: ok
Fael Illyar: Unless I’m seriously wrong, being disturbed means there is an attachment somewhere.
Moon Fargis: well i have to come to the summary… that drinking this glass of beer with my brother was a bad idea .. it makes me fuzzy in mind
Fael Illyar: to something
Delani Gabardini: haha
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Delani Gabardini: u should drink tea like quilty
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Moon Fargis: all sl tea took so long to get throught the network line
Moon Fargis see himself sucking at the network cable in mind and laughts
Quilty Bookmite: Beer also disrupts our perception. :-)
Fael Illyar: I blamed coffee yesterday :)
Fael Illyar: it wasn’t coffee
Fael Illyar: no effect today.
Dianket Wobbit: hehe, my zen master always call me to remember: in the deep of the dark cove there is the clear perl too
Quilty Bookmite: And you’re still disturbed?
Delani Gabardini: I like that dianket
Fael Illyar: me? no, the disturbance is gone, even though I drank coffee.
Fael Illyar: the coffee might have brought it to surface but wasn’t the cause.
Fael Illyar: I figured that earlier today so I drank another cup to see if it comes back.
Fael Illyar: didn’t
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Faenik: why not?
Quilty Bookmite: I’m not really sure where we are going with this. :-)
Moon Fargis: coffe and beer, how it affects our assumtion?
Fael Illyar: me neither. Conversation got a bit disturbed.
Moon Fargis: :)
Fael Illyar: :)
Quilty Bookmite: Maybe us Zennists are all wimps. :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: sorry nothing to add/contribute on this topic at the mo
Delani Gabardini: i am sorry everyone i have to leave for rl
Gaya Ethaniel: it’s often quite difficult for me to articulate / get my point across as english not good enough
Quilty Bookmite: Bye Delani.
Stim Morane: Bye Delani!
Gaya Ethaniel: see you Delani
Delani Gabardini: thank you for the time you have each given
Fael Illyar: Anyway, alcohol might bring up things too. I hope you’ll try to figure out your attachment later, Moon :)
Dianket Wobbit: see you dear
Fael Illyar: Bye Delani :)
Moon Fargis: fael: well as soon i am aware of it it will be gone
Moon Fargis: affecting me
Quilty Bookmite: My English isn’t good enough either but I don;t have another language to fall back on. :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Fael Illyar: I have to admit I was surprised to see that incoherent and disturbed lines from Moon :)
Fael Illyar: Although I surprised myself yesterday by doing the same.
Moon Fargis: as nice german beer is, as heavy it lies on the mind
Quilty Bookmite: I don’t think there is any shame in that.
Fael Illyar: I’m not feeling shamed.
Fael Illyar: just surprised.
Quilty Bookmite: Good. :-)
Quilty Bookmite: Some things are not so easily expressed.
Fael Illyar: which hints at an assumption :)
Gaya Ethaniel: does everyone meditate regularly here?
Fael Illyar: I do
Moon Fargis: well for me yes
Stim Morane: Yes
Dianket Wobbit: I do
Rajah Yalin: I do
Quilty Bookmite: Yes, sort of. :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: may i ask a question on that if ok
Moon Fargis: sure
Stim Morane: sure
Gaya Ethaniel: thanks :)
Gaya Ethaniel: do u reach a certain point when feeling detached leads to feeling indifferent? i think i fell into this trap
Stim Morane: yes, it’s a stage
Stim Morane: hard to avoid
Dianket Wobbit: yes, there are many traps
Fael Illyar: indifferent to everything?
Dianket Wobbit: sometimes
Gaya Ethaniel: what would be ur advice? i am swtiching to loving kindness meditation from breathing one
Gaya Ethaniel: yes fael things & people
Moon Fargis: well ask yourself, are you reallly different?
Dianket Wobbit: keep on meditation
Gaya Ethaniel: which was confusing to some of my friends & family
Moon Fargis: what makes you different?
Moon Fargis: your mind?
Moon Fargis: who tells you you are different to what?
Gaya Ethaniel: maybe indifferent is not the right word Mon
Gaya Ethaniel: *Moon
Gaya Ethaniel: can’t emphasise?
Gaya Ethaniel: *empathise
Quilty Bookmite: Unemotional?
Moon Fargis: ahh
Gaya Ethaniel: kind of but more or less balanced all the time
Fael Illyar: I had that… hard to say when as my progress has been going on for years but only for a month with discipline.
Quilty Bookmite: Language barrier, I think. :-)
Moon Fargis: unemotional yes i also had that
Fael Illyar: and some echoes still left that I’ve been wondering about myself.
Moon Fargis: leads me to not to able to smile again for a while
Moon Fargis: this wasnt good
Moon Fargis: so i switched to en
Moon Fargis: zen
Faenik: indeed?
Quilty Bookmite: I think it is almost inevitable.
Quilty Bookmite: Even with Zen. :-)
Moon Fargis: well yes the fact that you drop your mind and emotions maybe leads to the fact that you force it
Quilty Bookmite: i think this is where having a teacher helps a lot.
Gaya Ethaniel: so the answer is to stick with it?
Moon Fargis: forcing the drop of your emotions or blocking them is a way wich is verry unhealthy
Fael Illyar: I think my indifference was dropping not just attachments but the feelings themselves too.
Quilty Bookmite: You may be doing the right thing in concentrating on loving kindness.
Moon Fargis: atleast thats what ive leanred from myself
Gaya Ethaniel: i have a teacher but he lives far away
Gaya Ethaniel: when i do the loving kindness method
Quilty Bookmite: And maybe you aren’t as indifferent as you think, you may be just less lead by your emotions.
Gaya Ethaniel: i can’t feel the loving radiating out of myself though doing it for a long period now
Fael Illyar: I ended up not liking the result so I’ve been thinking about it.
Gaya Ethaniel: Quilty that appears to people that i don’t ‘care’
Fael Illyar: I think it’s somehow caused by dropping the emotion with the attachment.
Stim Morane: Yes, the “flat affect” is common, but it passes.
Quilty Bookmite: Maybe you are worrying too much about what people think.
Gaya Ethaniel: i must do….
Fael Illyar: … actually, moving away from dropping the emotion might’ve been what caused my disturbance yesterday.
Gaya Ethaniel: how long the effect lasted for u Stim?
Stim Morane: this is not the sort of thing that just happens once.
Quilty Bookmite: Society holds great value in emotional responses but they aren;t useful. They don’t get to the heart of the matter.
Stim Morane: Like everything, positive or not, in meditation, it follows a spiralic path.
Moon Fargis: gaya: maye be aware that emotions comes from thoughts, try to lower the volume ot the thoughts
Moon Fargis: in youe meditation
Moon Fargis: or go trought them in awareness
Stim Morane: It’s not unusual for the “flat affect” to last for months, then lift, then return several years later.
Moon Fargis: untill they fall off you
Faenik: could be
Gaya Ethaniel: difficult in loving kindness method Moon so always preferred doing focus on breathing or walking
Stim Morane: As long as there is a “self” to which such affects to attach, they will return or be reactivated.
Gaya Ethaniel: i feel a little intimidated to hear that the effect returns Stim
Stim Morane: Oh don’t worry. It’s just a sign of change.
Stim Morane: You tweak the mind as a result of practice, things like this pop out.
Dianket Wobbit: the only way to get awy of the self is being deat
Gaya Ethaniel: so changing meditation method is not necessary?
Quilty Bookmite: It doesn’t mean you are unfeeling or emotionless.
Stim Morane: would you like to change something?
Stim Morane: that is the key question.
Stim Morane: You have to follow your nature, your enthusiasms etc. This doesn’t mean being unloyal etc.
Gaya Ethaniel: i thought i better change to loving kindness method but i don’t get much out of this way of meditation i seems
Gaya Ethaniel: *it
Stim Morane: Do you get enough physical exercise and move around outdoors?
Fael Illyar: does it bother you that you’re not seemingly succeeding?
Gaya Ethaniel: yes i try to do that, is that important?
Stim Morane: Yes.
Stim Morane: Practice is a way of opening up, not narrowing down. It should be part of a more vigorous life.
Gaya Ethaniel: u mean practise mindfulness in daily activities?
Dianket Wobbit: sure
Gaya Ethaniel: or u mean factoring some sort of vigorous exercise?
Stim Morane: As your nature is uncovered and clarified, mindfulness is natural, not contrived.
Stim Morane: Anyway, don’t worry. But your questions are quite reasonable. I’ve heard this, and felt the same concern, many times.
Stim Morane: Go to a movie.
Gaya Ethaniel: :) ok i will try. thanks for all advise everyone
Quilty Bookmite: I must go. Once more I have stayed longer than my bedtime. :-)
Moon Fargis: :)
Quilty Bookmite: Thank you everyone.
Stim Morane: Yes, I too must go.
Stim Morane: Bye all!
Fael Illyar: See you later Quilty, Stim :)
Moon Fargis: see you soon gaya, quily
Gaya Ethaniel: see you quilty, stim, moon