2008.07.19 01:00 - You Seeing and Being Seeing

That night, Pema was the guardian. When I arrived in the pavilion, at 1 am, Bert was there already, and soon afterwards Fael arrived.

Pema Pera: Hi Bert!
Pema Pera: Long time no see :)
Bertrum Quan: Hi Pema.
Pema Pera: How's life?
Pema Pera: First, Second, whatever?
Fael Illyar: Hi Pema, Bert :)
Bertrum Quan: Hi Fael.
Bertrum Quan: Life is good.
Pema Pera: Hi Fael
Pema Pera: Glad to hear that Bert!
Bertrum Quan: Soon you'll be on your way to California...
Pema Pera: yeah, tomorrow by this time
Pema Pera: 23 hours from now
Pema Pera: always enjoyable those long flights
Pema Pera: good chance to read a book, for example
Fael Illyar: :)

For me it was 5 pm in Japan. I had spend that day for a large part on catching up with the PaB blog, putting up eight chat logs, some commented by me, some by others. However, when I copied the logs with my comments, I had stumbled on a number of small problems. I sympathised very much with those guardians who are not computer savvy, seeing how much trouble even I had, even though I'm a regular computer user otherwise.

Pema Pera: Fael, each time I look at the wiki page 2008/07 the ordering is flipped again, it seems :)
Pema Pera: very dynamic!
Pema Pera: even in the last hour
Fael Illyar: seems I'm having a pile of emails waiting for my attention each morning :)
Fael Illyar: strange that
Pema Pera: now the oldest one top, an hour ago the latest on top
Pema Pera: yes, I keep working on it, can't wait till August 1, when we make the final move, hopefully!
Fael Illyar: are you sure you're looking at the 07 page all the time and not the 2008 page?
Pema Pera: AH!
Pema Pera: that explains
Pema Pera: didn't realize the information was doubled up
Faenik: indeed?
Fael Illyar: you keep sounding like you might be having a case of tunnel vision :)

Well, yes, (quite) a bit overworked would be another expression :).

Pema Pera: do you think you can erase these indented superfluous lines? Or would you like me to do that?
Fael Illyar: I'll take a look at that
Pema Pera: thank you!
Pema Pera: what I'm looking for is the light at the end of the tunnel
Pema Pera: although I know about the warning: it could be a locomotive . . . .
Faenik: ah :)
Fael Illyar: ok, one of those is slightly different and easier to fix, it isn't under a subpage the same name as itself :)
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Pema Pera: Yes, I warned you, I was at least creative enough to make each error slightly different :)
Pema Pera: Bert, I see you doing a lot of typing -- is that an SL bug or are you typing a very long sentence?
Bertrum Quan: Last evening 1AM we discussed and number of PaB ideas--one is the need to take a leap of intuition... What are your thoughts about that?
Pema Pera: 24 hours ago?
Bertrum Quan: Yes.
Fael Illyar: I wouldn't say a leap is necessary. Just willigness to entertain the idea, even if just temporarily.
Pema Pera: I remember now, Bert, yes, you brought up the question of intuition
Pema Pera: intuition seems to be a word we use to describe a kind of knowing that doesn't fit into any of the usual known categories
Pema Pera: and leap seems to describe that it doesn't use the normal step-by-step mechanism of knowing

Followed by a different leap, back to wikis:

Fael Illyar: ok, now to delete the autocreated pages that are now unnecessary
Fael Illyar: hmmh... where does that place that I do math intuitively :P
Pema Pera thanks Fael for cleaning up the mess he created in the last few hours
Bertrum Quan: Yes. Kat was making the point that the only way we can know soething is if it can be varified by scientific method...
Pema Pera: I don't think it is easy to trace how you do math, Fael
Bertrum Quan: something
Pema Pera: you ponder and something pops up
Fael Illyar: probably not, it's certainly not in words :)
Pema Pera: nor necessarily step by step
Pema Pera: more stepping stone by stepping stone
Faenik: why not?
Pema Pera: with kinds of jumps in between
Pema Pera: Coming back to what Bert said at the start, the key seems to be that we need a totally different kind of knowing to deal with Being
Pema Pera: or to recognize Being dealing with us
Pema Pera: whether to call that intuition is less important, just a lable
Pema Pera: label
Pema Pera: wat IS important is to get a sense for it
Pema Pera: taste it
Pema Pera: "the one bright pearl"
Bertrum Quan: You've liked to apply the scientic method...
Fael Illyar: 2008.07.13 13:00 log seems to be missing
Bertrum Quan: Kat felt is was necessary...
Fael Illyar: Hello Sirio
Sirio Constantine: I need 1 linden
Sirio Constantine: hi
Vera Jonson takes a humble bow
Pema Pera: Hi Sirio!
Pema Pera: Hi Vera!
Fael Illyar: Hello Vera :)
Vera Jonson: hello everybody
Sirio Constantine: Hello

Vera and Sirio walked in, and joined us. I don't think Sirio got his Linden . . .

Bertrum Quan: My point was when it comes to PaB there comes a point where a leap of intuition is required... do you agree?
Pema Pera: hmmm, hard to give a yes/no answer, Bert
Pema Pera: But before discussing that
Pema Pera: Vera, have you been here before?
Vera Jonson: once before
Pema Pera: ah, so you know about our Play as Being
Pema Pera: please sit down and join our conversation!
Vera Jonson: if you would allow me to may i offer to sell my kimono here?
Pema Pera: Ah, that was in May perhaps, that you dropped by, Vera?
Pema Pera: This is not a shop, Vera
Vera Jonson: and for some conversation too lol
Sirio Constantine: yes I do
Pema Pera: Ryushu has a shop nearby
Sirio Constantine: :)
Vera Jonson: ok
Vera Jonson: was not sure hence why i ask
Pema Pera: Bert, to come back to your question, I am not sure whether anything is "required"
Pema Pera: rather, to Play as Being, you could say that we simply go back to what we already are
Pema Pera: how exactly we do that depends on how we normally pretend not to be there
Pema Pera: there are so many ways of subtraction
Katana Sword 2.1: releasing controls
Bertrum Quan: I'm trying to focus in on your take on what Kat said.
Pema Pera: about the scientific method?
Bertrum Quan: How does one know meditation works--specifically the 9 second tax.
Sirio Constantine: bye everybody.....I have to go now
Faenik: indeed?

Exit Sirio, katana sword and all.

Pema Pera: If we want to know how it "works" in the standard way of science, that is probably not a very usual question
Pema Pera: Bye Sirio
Vera Jonson: i am interested in that one as well
Bertrum Quan: Without scientific proof it's all very subjective, she said.
Bertrum Quan: And that's true.
Pema Pera: But I do think there is a parallel with science in the following sense
Pema Pera: science works with what is called a "working hypothesis"
Bertrum Quan: That's where I feel the leap of intuition comes into it.
Pema Pera: you take the existing knowledge, and neither believe it to be totally true nor consider it falls -- just take it as the best theory we have
Vera Jonson: but a hypothesis is good just to make it proved you need a theory
Pema Pera: then we take a new idea, perhaps a radically new idea -- and then we taste that, test that, also without believing it to be true or false
Pema Pera: now to test the new working hypothesis you have to work with it
Pema Pera: and the first step is to really see what it is, really put your teeth in it, really familiarize yourself with it, putting all the pieces on the table so to speak, walk around it
Pema Pera: and that is exactly what we do in Play as Being.
Pema Pera: The working hypothesis coudl be stated as: all is Being
Pema Pera: or: only Being is.
Pema Pera: Working with this working hypothesis means testing it -- but as with every working hypothesis, the first step of testing in tasting
Pema Pera: or seeing
Pema Pera: and once you really see what this working hypothesis is, then the seeing is the testing
Pema Pera: So all of that I would call scientific
Pema Pera: but not in the "science as objective method" idea of current science
Pema Pera: Does that make some sense?
Vera Jonson: but you have contingencies and may have to retest you're theory times over
Fael Illyar: so... no conclusive scientific proof of what Kat was wanting is likely not possible?
Bertrum Quan: Yes, but Kat would say your results cannot be replicated...
Pema Pera: Here too, Vera, once you have a real sense of Being, you will probably slip out of it and you need to get back into it over and over again
Fael Illyar: I'm suddenly having an idea of what that means now :)

This sentence made me curious, but it would be quite a while before we got back to it, with several strands being interlaced here.

Pema Pera: Fael, not conclusive in the terms of current science -- just like quantum mechanics can never be "conclusively proven" within the framework of classical science, which is just too narrow
Pema Pera: Replication is an idea that doesn't fit with what we are doing, Bert
Vera Jonson: actually quantum physics and mechanics can be somewhat proven
Pema Pera: Again, like in quantum mechanics already, you cannot replicate the decay of a single radioacive atom
Pema Pera: yes, Fael?
Pema Pera: what that means?
Pema Pera: Bert, replication means you stand outside, stand-off-ish
Pema Pera: Being cannot stand outside Being
Vera Jonson: hmm well if it cannot be proven by science how can it be logical proven
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Pema Pera: science is not logical, it is experimental
Pema Pera: our logic has to adapt to fit experimental outcomes
Pema Pera: not the other way around
Pema Pera: quantum mechanics cannot be described by classical logic
Pema Pera: Being does not follow our logic
Vera Jonson: true but i always though science was logical and experimental
Pema Pera: logic is limited to the context in which it is defined
Fael Illyar thinks you're talking with Vera, nor Fael.
Pema Pera: yes, I do, Fael, why?
Vera Jonson: i mean we are avatars here nothing can disprove this
Pema Pera must have missed something
Fael Illyar saw her name being said a couple of times.
Bertrum Quan: logic has to adapt..Is that adaptation intuitive?
Pema Pera: Fael, I refered to "Fael Illyar: I'm suddenly having an idea of what that means now :)"
Pema Pera: Vera, that we are here is not a given either -- not logically and not in terms of perception
Pema Pera: it is based on many hidden assumptions as Fael would say
Pema Pera: of "we" of "here" and of "now", etc
Vera Jonson: well maybe not as aperson in rl but as an avatar like an extension of us perhaps
Fael Illyar: Ah, yes, of course. I had a couple of days when I seemed to have trouble properly coming up with things that Being is not.
Pema Pera: Bert, adaptation of logic is tested experimentally, but yes, the new ideas could be said to conme from intuition
Pema Pera: whatever intuition might mean :)
Bertrum Quan: Okay, to me that is essential.
Pema Pera: Vera, with respect to the context of SL, yes, you can talk about avatars, there is an avatar logic -- but only with respect to that context

To me, context is central, and Being is what goes beyond all contexts -- but that in itself is only a collection of words, pointing to something beyond words.

Pema Pera: all logical is contextual
Pema Pera: Being is not contextual
Vera Jonson: what?
Pema Pera: that!
Pema Pera: I mean "that" what cannot be explained :)
Pema Pera: what only can be seen
Fael Illyar: "seen"
Pema Pera: yes
Vera Jonson: so you mean kind of like the colors we see
Pema Pera: no
Fael Illyar: or SEEn as Avastu would put it
Pema Pera: different use of the way "see"
Pema Pera: *word
Pema Pera: yes, like Avastu
Pema Pera: There is a kind of recipe, Vera
Pema Pera: take anything you can think of, and ask yourself whether you have it or whether you are it
Vera Jonson takes a humble bow
Pema Pera: drop what you have
Vera Jonson: excuse me i must go
Pema Pera: and see what you are left with what you are
Pema Pera: bye Vera!
Fael Illyar: I think we just scared her away.
Pema Pera: Bert, about intuition, can you tell us why that is so important for you?
Pema Pera: I don't know Fael, I hope not :)
Pema Pera: I just try to answer all questions addressed to me . . . .
Bertrum Quan: We've had a number of conversations where it seemed that science was the guide exclusively...
Faenik: indeed?
Bertrum Quan: I this there are thinks we cannot know. We need intuition. We need to learn to trust intuition.
Bertrum Quan: Sorry for the typo.
Bertrum Quan: There are things we cannot know.
Pema Pera: yes, trust that there is more than scientific rational knowledge and trust that there is more -- but no reason to trust anything in particular unless you really clearly see that it is so.
Pema Pera: no blind belief
Pema Pera: no blind trust
Pema Pera: but a kind of faith
Pema Pera: faith that what you are doing is worth while
Pema Pera: even if you can't quite see what about it is true in which way
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.

The word "faith" is an interesting one . . .

Bertrum Quan: Kat preferred that intuition be substituted for the word "faith" as that had a religious connotation
Pema Pera: Bert, you might be interested in the following page: http://www.waysofknowing.net/Snippets_Items/WorkingWithAWorkingHypothesis.html
Pema Pera: I'd love to discuss that with you, next time we get a chance
Bertrum Quan: I'll read it. Thank you.
Pema Pera: it talks about Max Planck, one of the greatest physicists of the twentieth century, who talked about a working hypothesis as similar to faith, like religious faith
Pema Pera: Faith is needed to continue, a kind of faith at least -- although I don't want to tie myself to one particular word
Bertrum Quan: I think faith and intuition can be interchangeable
Pema Pera: you could say motivation
Pema Pera: something draws you, pulls you
Pema Pera: yes, you can call it intuition
Bertrum Quan: I'm not sure motivation fits ...
Bertrum Quan: That's more like the "plot" in the story or novel...
Pema Pera: Each word can be used in so many ways -- like if you have an intuition for how to solve a puzzle -- would you call that also faith (given that you say the two words are interchangeable)?
Bertrum Quan: It's the causal factor...
Bertrum Quan: causal factor refers to "motivation"
Bertrum Quan: In the example you give they "might" be interchangeable but not necessarily interchangeable
Pema Pera: well, we can ask "why do we keep coming back here to these sessions?
Fael Illyar: I find the discussions interesting :)
Fael Illyar: at least most of the time
Pema Pera: would you say, because of an intuition ?
Faenik: why not?
Pema Pera: or faith?
Fael Illyar still doesn't feel certain enough of what faith is to use that to communicate.
Bertrum Quan: I would say that is part of it. Faith too.
Pema Pera: Yes, both words I would be happy with too
Fael Illyar: Faith as a word is a bit bad idea. I think many people misunderstand it completely. Most likely including me.
Pema Pera: yes, every word is dependent on the context it is used in, like any kind of logic is
Faenik: could be
Pema Pera: and the point for us is to use words as scaffolding
Pema Pera: tricks, crutches, that we can let go off
Pema Pera: as soon as we see what they are trying to point at
Fael Illyar: Yes, I do that
Bertrum Quan: Another non-scientific component to help us see is narrative
Pema Pera: yes, that can certainly help
Pema Pera: all traditional teachers use stories
Pema Pera: around metaphors
Pema Pera: parables

At that moment, I got an "intuition", in the sense of something suddenly revealing itself to me, appearing, become clear. Somehow, after all the talk about words and definitions of words, it seemed so much better to actually do something, doing toward seeing.

Pema Pera: Bert, can we do a 9-sec experiment?
Pema Pera: and Fael?
Pema Pera: A specific one?
Pema Pera: Here is the idea.
Pema Pera: Spend just a few seconds to become aware of how we normally look outward.
Pema Pera: Here I am sitting here in RL or SL, either way or both, and there is a field of view in front of me.
Pema Pera: Then, once you really feel that familiar way of looking, becoming more consciously aware of it, then make a leap
Pema Pera: (ha, not fast enough!)
Pema Pera: and instead view that everything is seen by Being
Pema Pera: not only what is in front of you, but all around
Pema Pera: outside and inside you
Pema Pera: all thoughts, feelings, intuitions, whatever phenomena or appearances you can possible think of.
Pema Pera: Is that clear, those two ways of seeing?
Pema Pera: You seeing, literally, and Being seeing, all inclusively?
Bertrum Quan: Okay.
Pema Pera: Let us try that
Pema Pera: And take your time -- could be more than 9 seconds of course
Fael Illyar will try but is uncertain what she's trying.
Pema Pera: a minute normal looking and a minute letting Being SEE
Pema Pera: Let's just try, Fael, and see what happens :)
Faenik: why not?
Pema Pera: we can then refine the recipe
Pema Pera: Well, Faenik, you did it again!
Pema Pera: okay, let's just go ahead then.
Faenik: ah :)
Fael Illyar is uncertain what's the difference between normal looking and letting Being SEE.
Pema Pera: :)
Bertrum Quan: In front of me is a computer screen with a avatar image of myself and two others. We are in an Asian influenced Pavillion. I am in a meditative pose as are the others. I am also not there at all. There everything past and present. The is a beginning and an end. There is no beginning and end. There is a heartbeat. There is silence.
Pema Pera: I meant it really literally: normal viewing as seeing the visual field of view in front of you -- while letting Being SEE involves a rather different kind of all inclusive seeing, Being seeing all there is -- quite different in many ways (this was in response to Fael)
Pema Pera: Thanks, Bertrum, great description -- wonderful to start with a description!
Pema Pera: like doing an experiment
Faenik: could be
Pema Pera: The first part of that was normal seeing, right? Was the second half Being Seeing?
Bertrum Quan: That was my thought--in the 9 seconds--of the parameters of Being.

Encouraged by Bert being willing to actually jump in do the exploration/experiment, I wanted to try to improve my description a bit more. I felt real excitement, a sense of Being presenting itself in a rather concrete way, asking us to acknowledge and join the dance.

Pema Pera: Can we try once more, and more specific -- do you have a few more minutes?
Pema Pera: If so, let me say a bit more
Bertrum Quan: okay
Fael Illyar: yes, I do have minutes
Pema Pera: First, spend say 9 seconds only on becoming aware of the way you *normally* look, completely conventionally, visually, with your eyes -- nothing poetic or different from ordinary seeing
Pema Pera: just notice how in front of you you see objects, and they are all part of your visual field
Pema Pera: a kind of cone in front of you
Pema Pera: you can do it now already
Pema Pera: all very ordinary
Fael Illyar: ... yes I could do it but I don't want to repeat it again.
Pema Pera: Then you stop doing that and you spend some time on a different kind of experiment, also 9 seconds if you like
Pema Pera: in those second 9 seconds you let Being SEE everything
Pema Pera: all
Pema Pera: not visually in the sense of eyes
Pema Pera: a different kind of seeing
Pema Pera: inside and outside you
Pema Pera: not located
Pema Pera: nor spreading outward or moving inward
Pema Pera: all inclusive
Pema Pera: whatever that may mean -- don't try to form an image of it -- just do it
Pema Pera: like Sky said in a recent blog

I was referring to http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/2008/07/13/act-as-we-know-and-then-it-comes/, with the title "Act as We Know and Then it Comes" which probably was meant to be "Act as if We Know and Then it Comes (the Knowledge)".

Pema Pera: Play as Being, literally!
Pema Pera: and find out what that can possibly mean by doing it
Pema Pera: Does that make more sense?
Pema Pera: What is it you don't want to repeat again, Fael?
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Fael Illyar: trying to limit myself to just my vision
Pema Pera: Watching that part is not necessarily limiting perhaps . . . maybe you can do that in different ways; sure you can try to forget everything else or you can still focus on it while also being aware of something wider, there is a choice
Pema Pera: Bert, are these two modes of paying attention clear, the way I tried to describe it?
Pema Pera: Would you like to try again?
Bertrum Quan: I'll try it again.
Pema Pera: take your time!
Pema Pera: I'll do it too, and if you too Fael, only if you like of course (^_^)
Fael Illyar: Perhaps some other time. The first part is ... well, not so inviting.
Fael Illyar: ... I wonder if I just replicated Storms crazy attempt while doing that.
Pema Pera: hahaha, I suddenly remember what you told Moon, that you thought there was something hidden or unacknowledged -- how did you say that again?
Pema Pera: The first part is just normal seeing, nothing crazy there
Pema Pera: totally ordinary
Pema Pera: What is "Storms crazy attempt"?
Fael Illyar: Yes, that's what Storm did, tried to put himself into totally "normal" state for 9 seconds. Reverse 9-sec exploration
Fael Illyar: "Don't try this at home"
Pema Pera: ah!
Pema Pera: Yes, I remember :-)
Pema Pera: I did not mean in it such an extreme or opposite way
Faenik: ah :)
Pema Pera: only purely normal, whatever normal is for each of us
Pema Pera: what we already do, as a kind of calibration
Fael Illyar: I'm not sure if it was the same but I certainly don't want to do it again.

Bertrum gave another clear and inspiring phenomenological report of his exploration.

Bertrum Quan: A laptop screen displays colorful images, and geometric patterns. In the center of the images are three represemtations of human beings, Energy. particles. Everything is connected. Nothing is connected.
Fael Illyar: For better or worse, aside from what I just did, I can't really figure out how to do something different for both.
Pema Pera: Bert, is that only for the first 9 seconds?
Bertrum Quan: That's what come to mind...
Bertrum Quan: came to mind
Pema Pera: for the first 9 seconds?
Pema Pera: and after this, you will do the second 9 seconds, letting Being See?
Pema Pera: I'm just trying to understand what you did :)
Bertrum Quan: It was both...
Pema Pera: ah! okay!
Pema Pera: Can you describe whether you physically felt different, bodily, during both periods?
Pema Pera: the one of you seeing in your own normal every day way
Pema Pera: and one of letting Being SEE everything and all?
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Bertrum Quan: In the second section there was more engagement with the senses. When you read the words--energy, particles, etc. that may not come across. In the first section, there was actually less "awareness" although literally seeing was described.
Faenik: ah :)
Pema Pera: that is rather similar, or at least compatible I should say, with what I felt
Pema Pera: I have never done this specific experiment, this was something that just popped up
Pema Pera: but I've done ones that are roughly similar in some ways
Pema Pera: I felt a totally different physical sensation
Pema Pera: in the second one (the first is the standard awareness, as reminder or callibration)
Pema Pera: as if seen from the inside
Pema Pera: and the outside at the same time
Pema Pera: illuminated as in a fog
Pema Pera: non-directional and omni-directional
Pema Pera: and then with all senses
Pema Pera: hard to describe
Pema Pera: as if smell and taste and everything is flowing together, but without being mixed up
Pema Pera: all in one yet minutely distinguishable
Pema Pera: another physical sensation, quite strongly, is the eyes feeling more softly
Pema Pera: rather clear change
Pema Pera: less pointing outwards, resting rather, floating
Pema Pera: well, I could go on for a long time, but I'm surprised how effective this was.
Pema Pera: It would be interesting to hear experiences from a number of others
Bertrum Quan: Yes, I would be curious,,,
Pema Pera: If you feel like, you can do this during your next 9 sec practices, for a few days, say -- up to each of you of course, but might be interesting.

I turned from Bert to Fael.

Pema Pera: Fael, I'm still curious.
Pema Pera: Is this latter way of experiencing yourself and your surroundings, inside and out, exactly how you experience that every moment, already? That would be rather surprizing, at least for me :)
Fael Illyar: I don't know
Fael Illyar: but there's something that makes me unable to understand what you're testing here.
Pema Pera: Perhaps something to play with -- shifting between normal seeing and being seen by Being (nothing like Storm's tricks -- thanks for bringing that up -- that would be overshooting in the opposite direction!)
Pema Pera: not testing so much as getting a taste of Playing as Being -- well, perhaps you could call it testing, a taste test perhaps :)
Faenik loves wells!
Fael Illyar: Well, I managed to finally clear the "aftershock" mostly I guess.
Pema Pera: Something concrete after all the talking we've done :-)
Pema Pera: Ah, RL is calling
Pema Pera: have to go now, sorry about that
Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later.
Bertrum Quan: indeed. good night Pema and Fael.
Pema Pera: let's continue this. I think it would be good to be a bit more specifically experimental for a while.
Pema Pera: see you both soon again!
Fael Illyar: Good night Bert

Bert left, and just before I was about to leave myself, I remembered Fael talking about something missing in the wiki.

Pema Pera: oh, Fael
Pema Pera: you said there was a session missing?
Pema Pera: not for me, on the wiki, for 7/13
Fael Illyar: ah, I copied it from the blog already. Maxine's session
Fael Illyar: she still hasn't managed to copy&paste for some reason
Pema Pera: ah, thanks -- of course, yes
Pema Pera: She had the title only
Pema Pera: She will need more precise instructions
Fael Illyar: done that twice already. Once before the tutorial and now after
Pema Pera: well, even more precise, even more step by step

I knew what I was talking about: just a day before, Fael had given me a two-line explanation, and I managed to ask her at least half a dozen lines worth of questions about it -- I know it is easy to feel shy asking questions about software, but really, we all have to learn, slowly, and asking is the quickest way to learn!

Fael Illyar: and I was thinking this one was too verbose :P
Pema Pera: alternatively, let her describe exactly where she gets stuck
Pema Pera: that might be more effective, come to think of it
Fael Illyar: That'd be my favourite option
Pema Pera: and may well help her to see what went wrong
Pema Pera: yes
Fael Illyar: that way there's less guessing on what it is she didn't get
Pema Pera: a kind of subtraction rather than addition :)
Pema Pera: yes
Faenik: could be

And yes, that is the approach I had taken myself, asking Fael dozens of questions over the last few days, in order to understand more of the subtleties of the wiki.  By this time, however, I really had to leave.  Just at that moment, Fael threw out another intriguing sentence and I was immediately hooked again.

Pema Pera: have to run now -- c u !
Fael Illyar: I'll have to be more careful with your experiments if I don't feel like I get what you're after.
Fael Illyar: Bye
Pema Pera: sorry
Pema Pera: in what way?
Fael Illyar: not do them unless I get what you're after.
Pema Pera smiles at interesting sentences coming up each time he wants to leave
Pema Pera: yes, just doing is much better
Pema Pera: hard at first, but better than having expectations
Fael Illyar: no guessing
Pema Pera: YES!!!!
Fael Illyar: Well, nothing more to say about it I guess.
Pema Pera: actually, this also reminded me a bit of what you wrote a few days ago, if I may
Pema Pera: "Fael Illyar: Moon, feeling uncomfortable sounds like a self-image in danger of collapsing to me." to Moon, on July 14, 1 pm
Pema Pera: perhaps some connection?
Pema Pera: or totally different?
Fael Illyar: haha, perhaps :P
Pema Pera: well, RL is now pulling my sleeves very strongly :)
Pema Pera: c u
Fael Illyar: c u