2008.07.10 13:00 - The Eyes have it

Storm was guardian again having successfully restored his machine after a calamitous auto-update of software.

Fael and Wol were already waiting on Pavilion as I jack-knifed in from many hundreds of feet above. And, unusually for me, I had Fael's pet Faenik unmuted today; that was to prove an essential ingredient of our chat. Quilty joined us soon after, together with Adams who still had the sea air in her hair.

Fael Illyar: Hi Storm
Storm Nordwind: Hi!
Wol Euler: hello storm
Wol Euler: I want to lie down for a few minutes before we begin, brb
Fael Illyar: Well, I just figured a topic too while thinking about things before the meeting start :)
Fael Illyar: Hi Adams :)
Storm Nordwind: That is always good
Fael Illyar: Hi Quilty
Fael Illyar: almost forgot it already though.
Storm Nordwind: Hi guys
Adams Rubble: Hello everyone :)
Quilty Bookmite: Hi all.
Fael Illyar: took me a while to recover it.
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Storm. haven't seen you for a few days.
Storm Nordwind: This is true. Either been offline or busy building.

Fael decided to propose a topic right at the start. Sometimes this works. Sometimes it doesn't. Whatever happens, it's always fun! We pinned back our ears and listened.

Fael Illyar: I was reading this http://quantumenigma.com/nutshell/ and thought about a few things and got 2 ideas. Of reality being a sort of like Haskell VM that lazily calculates values when they're needed and then a wild idea about explanation for why unreasonable expectations make people unhappy :)
Fael Illyar: Since quantum entanglement seems to happen in nature, all of the particles in our minds are likely entangled with lots of other particles all around the universe.

Wow!

Faenik: could be
Wol Euler: lol
Fael Illyar: umm, bodies
Storm Nordwind: Or maybe just as other parts of ourselves
Fael Illyar: not minds
Fael Illyar: So, I was wondering that if we can have an effect on reality by having expectations, then unhappiness that results from false beliefs and inability to accept the world as is would make us exhaust our capacity for that.
Quilty Bookmite: We change reality just by having different expectations?
Storm Nordwind: It partly assumes that things have real existence from their own side.
Fael Illyar: No, not really.
Wol Euler: social reality, definitely; physical maybe not so easily
Adams Rubble is thinking about a Rube Goldberg world
Fael Illyar: I wouldn't be so certain about physical reality not being possible to change.
Quilty Bookmite: Social reality I think can certainly change by our expectations because our expectations can influence our actions either subtly or overtly.
Quilty Bookmite: I think that is possible too.
Quilty Bookmite: Especially as reality is such a tenuous thing. :-)
Storm Nordwind: We all perceive the same things differently anyway

I brought that up since I thought it relevant to the main topic. But Quilty leapt on it and wanted to talk about that in its own right. Which was fine!

Quilty Bookmite: That always intrigues me, even before I became Buddhist...
Fael Illyar: Well, I did say it's a wild idea :)
Storm Nordwind: I like wild ideas!
Quilty Bookmite: For example, I see that plant in the corner as being green as do most people who aren't colour blind...
Quilty Bookmite: But how do I know that the green I see isn;t completely different from the green Storm sees?
Storm Nordwind: We may be seeing it differently. We just agree to call it green, by convention
Quilty Bookmite: Exactly. We all know it's green because we have labelled all things that colour as being green. It's just a convention.
Fael Illyar: All we really know about that is that we can all perceive things as something we label "green" very consistently.
Fael Illyar: that when someone calls something green, others would likely perceive it as green as well.
Storm Nordwind: No...
Storm Nordwind: the boundary between green and blue differs between cultures
Storm Nordwind: You can ask a Japanese about the colours of grass and trees.
Storm Nordwind: I forget which but one person I worked with called one green and the other blue. Whereas I called both green

So, in the spirit of play, we tried an experiment.

Fael Illyar: that makes me wonder about an experiment. Could each of you look at my AVs eyes and say what color you think it is?

Wol Euler: that may be training as well as culture, if you hadn't learned to make that distinction yet?
Quilty Bookmite: purple
Adams Rubble: purple

There are so many differently named related shades in that part of the spectrum, what can one do? Is something lilac, lavender, mauve, violet, purple... Hmm... I settled for something else entirely.

Storm Nordwind: heliotrope
Adams Rubble: :)
Quilty Bookmite: And thank you Fael for showing me how to zoom in on things. :-)
Wol Euler can never remember the difference between purple and violet
Fael Illyar: heliotrope I haven't heard before :)
Wol Euler: I think purple is reddish and violet is blueish
Wol Euler: so I'd say purple
Fael Illyar: the actual eye object is named blue
Quilty Bookmite: Ah. Doesn't look blue.
Fael Illyar: dark blue actually
Wol Euler shakes her head.
Wol Euler: there is definitely a tint of red in them
Fael Illyar: somebody thinks it's blue at least :P
Wol Euler: not a pure blue
Storm Nordwind: Depends on whether your screen needs degaussing
Storm Nordwind: Or your mind perhaps :)
Wol Euler searches for the button
Quilty Bookmite: Good point. My screen has certainly never been calibrated.
Faenik: could be
Adams Rubble: mine has :)
Quilty Bookmite: I don't think modern screens need degaussing. :-)
Fael Illyar: TFT screens certainly can't be degaussed :)
Quilty Bookmite: Adams, do you work on graphics a lot?
Adams Rubble: I work with art images
Quilty Bookmite: Only CRTs.
Quilty Bookmite: That explains it. :-)
Adams Rubble: PCs need calibrating; macs do not
Quilty Bookmite: I don;t think software engineers justify screen calibration. :-)
Adams Rubble: my eyes are looking purple too
Wol Euler: um, actuyally the pros calibrate their Macs too :-)
Fael Illyar: it's the same eye
Quilty Bookmite: Macs probably do if they run Windows. :-)
Faenik: why not?
Fael Illyar: same freebie eye pair :)
Adams Rubble thought her eyes were unique
Quilty Bookmite: Adams, yours look more blue to me.
Quilty Bookmite: This is getting to be a deep spiritual conversation. :-)
Quilty Bookmite: The perceived colour probably varies according to its surrounding.
Fael Illyar: Yes, that does make a difference
Storm Nordwind: And on what I had for dinner
Wol Euler nods. Definitely, read Edward Tufte on that.
Quilty Bookmite: :-D
Quilty Bookmite: Storm - definitely blue.
Adams Rubble tries another experiment
Storm Nordwind: Maybe Adams's and Fael's eyes are quantum pairs ;)
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Fael Illyar: nah, just a common freebie eye :)
Fael Illyar: full perm one so it's available from all kinds of places.
Fael Illyar: some people even sell it
Quilty Bookmite: Do people pay a lot of money for eyes?
Storm Nordwind: Ah... so you have to pay for REAL quantum pairs. Beware imitations everyone!
Wol Euler: $50 to $75, sure.
Quilty Bookmite: Real SL quantum pairs. :-)
Quilty Bookmite: I hope it's worth it. :-)
Fael Illyar: Well, the positive side is that it saves bandwidth :)
Fael Illyar: all our clients can do with downloading one texture instead of two :P
Quilty Bookmite: Of course. :-)
Wol Euler: adams, you've quietly changed shirts :-)
Adams Rubble: :)
Fael Illyar: Well, my original topics didn't cause too much of a conversation it seems :)
Quilty Bookmite: Too political?
Fael Illyar: too wild I suppose
Wol Euler: on the contrary, you launched a very active conversation.
Storm Nordwind: Title of the Blog entry: "The Eyes have it"
Fael Illyar: yes, but it sidetracked.
Adams Rubble: :)
Fael Illyar: :)
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Quilty Bookmite: they do tend to. :-)
Wol Euler shrugs. Just like life, somehow.
Quilty Bookmite: Adams, I am probably going to Israel next month.
Quilty Bookmite: On business.
Adams Rubble: :)
Quilty Bookmite: It is life really. Just a conversation like any other.
Wol Euler: sorry, I need to walk around a bit, sitting too long.
Storm Nordwind: No problem
Quilty Bookmite: Ok. :-)
Adams Rubble: and I must go
Adams Rubble: bye everyone :)
Quilty Bookmite: Bye Adams.
Storm Nordwind: bfn

After the play, that had come out of seriousness, we changed topic to love and the pursuit of happiness.

Storm Nordwind: Here's a question: do you find that PaB practice encourages you to research ideas you would not have done otherwise?
Fael Illyar: Yes, definitely.
Quilty Bookmite: Meditation certainly does that for me.
Wol Euler: / back
Storm Nordwind: Hmm... in which case I would not have noticed the difference for 35 years!
Fael Illyar: not just meditation and explorations. These meetings play a big part too.
Storm Nordwind: That is true
Quilty Bookmite: I will be off and on. Got to tidy up toys.
Storm Nordwind: Bye Quilty
Fael Illyar: Ok, Bye Quilty :)
Wol Euler: bye, take care
Storm Nordwind: I am thinking an alternative model that PaB might draw attention to something you did anyway before
Fael Illyar: to something you did anyway before?
Storm Nordwind: Yes, researching new ideas
Fael Illyar: like for example having meditated without knowing it's called meditation?
Storm Nordwind: No. But seeking out new ideas of being, of philosophy, of science
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps you are now more aware of being aware.
Fael Illyar: I've always liked seeking new ideas. PaB has just directed my search and thinking a bit. Perhaps also increased how much I do it
Storm Nordwind nods
Fael Illyar: The ideas I've found here allow me to spend less time keeping myself happy and more time thinking up wild ideas.
Wol Euler smiles. that is a good outcome
Storm Nordwind: That could be a telling phrase: "keeping myself happy"
Wol Euler: are you less happy now that you don't keep yourself happy?
Fael Illyar: I certainly meant it as one.
Wol Euler: (expecting the answer "no")
Fael Illyar: more happy you could say
Wol Euler: !
Storm Nordwind: or just less unhappy?
Fael Illyar: less unhappy, certainly but I think also more happy.
Storm Nordwind: I find that many people's happiness is not so much a plus as less of a minus
Fael Illyar: in what way?
Storm Nordwind: Not something I share, but an observation
Storm Nordwind: People are often seeking for happiness
Storm Nordwind: When they find something that makes them happy it doesn't last for long
Storm Nordwind: The happiness is always associated outside themselves
Wol Euler nods.
Fael Illyar: seeking happiness is what I meant with "keeping myself happy".
Fael Illyar: although, I've been walking along side roads with that for years already.
Storm Nordwind nods
Wol Euler: The trouble with seeking happiness is that IMHO happiness is a byproduct.
Fael Illyar: not the main roads with lots of people
Storm Nordwind: very interesting Wol
Wol Euler: Happiness happens for me most often when I'm too busy and too involved to ask whether I am happy
Storm Nordwind: I see
Fael Illyar: yes, I've had the same observation
Wol Euler: It's somethjing I recognize in retrospect rather than actively experiencing
Fael Illyar: I read something interesting yesterday. That happiness is expressing love.
Quilty Bookmite: I like that definition. :-)
Wol Euler nods. I'd agree with that
Storm Nordwind: But what is love?
Fael Illyar: Yes, that's the ticker :)
Fael Illyar: certainly not what it seems to be in the media
Quilty Bookmite: Maybe for me compassion is a better word.
Fael Illyar: or movies
Storm Nordwind: haha
Quilty Bookmite: Yes, that's why love isn;t necessarily the best word. :-)
Quilty Bookmite: It has too much baggage.
Wol Euler: it's an overloaded word
Wol Euler: yes
Fael Illyar: I'd prefer using another word for clarity if there is one.
Fael Illyar: of course we could just make up one on the spot here :P
Wol Euler: compassionate acceptance
Storm Nordwind waits listening
Faenik: ah :)
Quilty Bookmite: Also heard the phrase loving kindness used.
Wol Euler: but it repeats "love", not a substitute
Quilty Bookmite: Although I don't think that is quite the same as compassion.
Wol Euler: how about "agape"?
Fael Illyar: ... why agape?
Storm Nordwind: ambiguous unless you say it!
Quilty Bookmite: I don't know what it means. :-)
Fael Illyar: remembers a song titled "agape"
Wol Euler: Many have thought that this word represents blockquoteine, unconditional, self-sacrificing, active, volitional, and thoughtful love. Greek philosophers at the time of Plato and other ancient authors have used forms of the word to denote love of a spouse or family, or affection for a particular activity, in contrast to philia—an affection that could denote either brotherhood or generally non-sexual affection, and eros, an affection of a sexual nature.
Wol Euler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape
Storm Nordwind: pronounced a - ga - pay
Fael Illyar: oh yes, that looks like it'd be quite perfect match
Quilty Bookmite: Yes. :-)
Faenik loves wells!
Quilty Bookmite: Faenik has agape for wells?
Wol Euler: but haven't found it yet.
Wol Euler: the Wikipedia definition sounds a bit "hotter" than I was tending towards, I was groping towards a more relaxed and gentle expression
Fael Illyar: :)
Storm Nordwind: Only wells that are a-gape :)
Wol Euler: lol
Quilty Bookmite: Lol!
Fael Illyar: you're happy when you do something your agape :P
Storm Nordwind: When I'm agape, my eyes and mouth are wide open - oops the the other pronunciation!
Quilty Bookmite: I am told (and I know very little of this) that there is a Tibetan meditation where you extend love out from yourself to your close friends, to people you hardly know and then to those you may regard as your enemies.
Quilty Bookmite: I think this may be one of the reasons behind it. :-)
Faenik: could be
Fael Illyar: Yes, very likely
Storm Nordwind: It is often called the metta meditation by some
Quilty Bookmite: Yes, i think that is the name I've heard.
Quilty Bookmite: My wife practices it, so I should pay more attention.
Storm Nordwind: ah - but that would be shouldism not Buddhism!
Fael Illyar: :)
Quilty Bookmite: Good point Storm. :-)

Now the attention turned to Fael's right shoulder, upon which rested a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.

Wol Euler chuckles at the apt Faenikery
Quilty Bookmite: I am definitely coming to the conclusion that Faenik is far more sentient than they seem.
Wol Euler: lol
Fael Illyar: I've made a point of not making Faenik say any of those random generated lines myself.
Fael Illyar: even though I can make it say whatever I want by giving a command.
Fael Illyar: it also randomly throws lines from a notecard
Wol Euler: I always thought it was a "he" actually
Fael Illyar: it refers to script in this case
Wol Euler: ah :-)
Quilty Bookmite: i deliberately didn;t specify. :-)
Quilty Bookmite: So is Faenik a he or a she? Or neither?
Faenik: indeed?
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Fael Illyar falls down laughing.
Storm Nordwind: On maybe both, consecutively or serially
Wol Euler: or even at once, in parallel
Fael Illyar: I tend to call Faenik a he.
Quilty Bookmite: Faenik looks rather like a tribble to me.
Fael Illyar: tribble?
Storm Nordwind: Que?
Wol Euler: tribbles! yay
Wol Euler: lol
Quilty Bookmite: That betrays me as particularly geeky. :-)
Wol Euler: ancient Star Trek history
Quilty Bookmite: They were creatures form the original Star Trek.
Fael Illyar: oh :)
Wol Euler: before you two were born!
Storm Nordwind: Geeky no. Sad... perhaps! :)
Wol Euler: lol
Quilty Bookmite: I am happy in my sadness. :-)
Storm Nordwind: touche!
Fael Illyar: It really does often amaze me just how often Faenik throws a line that really matches the situation :)
Fael Illyar: like that "indeed?" right after the question about Faenik's gender :)
Quilty Bookmite: Indeed. :-)
Fael Illyar: certainly way more accurate than I ever expected :)
Wol Euler: well, I hate to break up the party, but I have another appointment.
Quilty Bookmite: Bye Wol.
Storm Nordwind: OK Wol. Good to see you
Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Wol :)
Wol Euler: It's been grand, thank you all for the thought provocation
Wol Euler: bye until next time
Storm Nordwind: hope so
Quilty Bookmite: I think I should go too. Bed time.
Storm Nordwind: and me
Fael Illyar: Good night Quilty :)
Fael Illyar: and Storm :)
Quilty Bookmite: It's been a pleasure as always and a good laugh!
Storm Nordwind: yes. I never know what to expect!
Fael Illyar: Yes, that it has been :)
Fael Illyar: me neither :)
Storm Nordwind: Namaste
Quilty Bookmite: Namaste