That night I met Fael and Bert at the pavilion.
Pema Pera: Good something!
Fael Illyar: Hi Pema :)
Pema Pera: night I guess for Bert?
Pema Pera: Morning for Fael?
Bertrum Quan: Hi Pema, yes, it’s night here
Faenik: ah :)
Faenik loves wells!
Fael Illyar: We had a bit … “disturbed” meeting last night.
Pema Pera: yes?
Pema Pera: I what way?
Fael Illyar: somehow the focus kept breaking up.
Pema Pera: That was Thorberg’s shift?
Fael Illyar: ah, no, Stims
Pema Pera: ah yes, of course
Pema Pera: hard to count the days at the other side of the date line, from where I am :)
Pema Pera: Stim is pretty focused normally :>)
Fael Illyar: :)
Fael Illyar: not stims fault :)
Pema Pera: ah, your evening!
Pema Pera: SLT evening was Thorberg
Fael Illyar: yes
Pema Pera: k
Pema Pera: we were both right then
Pema Pera: for different reasons
Pema Pera: very PaB :)
Fael Illyar: I tried bringing up the hidden assumptions topic when no-one apparently had a topic after 15 minutes (I arrived late)
Pema Pera: hidden assumptions is central
Pema Pera: the handpuppet is a story about hidden assumptions
Pema Pera: the hand is hidden
Fael Illyar: somehow whenever people started talking, it was everyone at once
Pema Pera: how large was the group?
Fael Illyar: 9 I think
Fael Illyar: ok, not everyone, a few stayed silent.
Faenik: なるほど^^
I brought up the idea of having not all 28 meetings a week being equal, something I seem to do once a month or so :).
Pema Pera: one solution is to have two kinds of meetings, smaller ones where everyone talks, larger ones where you have either one speaker, like a lecture, or two or three speakers, like a dialouge or small panel
Pema Pera: and then half an hour could be used for the one, or two or three, people, and half an hour for general comments
Fael Illyar: Usually people don’t talk that actively. Even in bigger meetings.
Fael Illyar: I wonder if I managed to touch something with the topic
Pema Pera: Well, shall we talk about it now?
Pema Pera: where you in that meeting, Bert?
Bertrum Quan: No, I would like to hear both of your thoughts on the topic.
Fael Illyar: ok :)
Pema Pera: wanna start, Fael?
Pema Pera: unhiding hidden assumptions :)
Fael Illyar: I find I notice where people are going off the path by looking for certain hidden assumptions.
Pema Pera: can you say more?
Fael Illyar: wel, if I’ll pull in the other thread too, “is being like X?” has the assumption that Being is like something.
Faenik loves wells!
Pema Pera: YES!
Fael Illyar: I tend to look for these in my own lines too.
Fael Illyar: sometimes I have talk about something to realize where I’m going wrong. Because it seems I can’t pick these off that easily from the wordless thought mode I usually use.
Pema Pera: exactly!
Ah, the chore of writing something after a 9-sec exploration!
Pema Pera: that is precisely why I recommend writing down SOMETHING every 15 minutes
Pema Pera: I know it sounds silly
Pema Pera: I suspect that very few people actually do it
Fael Illyar: I haven’t been doing it for weeks. :)
Pema Pera: with Adams the most visible example of doing it
Fael Illyar: oh… month
Pema Pera: even just doing it ten times a day
Pema Pera: makes a big difference
Pema Pera: and if you can write SOMETHING down for, say, 15 hours a day, 60 times
Pema Pera: you will be amazed by the effect
Pema Pera: 60 times a day a truth serum
Pema Pera: a lithmus test
Pema Pera: a check up
Pema Pera: the moment of truth
Pema Pera: WHAT do you write
Pema Pera: of course you can write “—”
Pema Pera: or “nothing”
Pema Pera: or “don’t wanna write”
Pema Pera: or “whatever”
Fael Illyar: so that’s behind writing “nothing” even if you don’t figure out something?
Pema Pera: but write SOMETHING
Pema Pera: ah, continuity, Fael
Faenik loves wells!
Pema Pera: if you get into the habit of writing SOMETHING
Pema Pera: even the word “nothing” which is also something
Pema Pera: then you can continue
Pema Pera: and your quest will go somewhere
Pema Pera: you’ll be surprised
Fael Illyar: I guess I might notice the falseness of “nothing” if I actually did have something.
Pema Pera: for example, yes
Bertrum Quan: Quest?
Pema Pera: trying to see reality
Fael Illyar: but I don’t have a Quest :)
Pema Pera: or simply to see
Faenik loves wells!
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: words are tricky
Pema Pera: in some ways it is definitely not a quest
Pema Pera: it is beyond words
Pema Pera: and in some ways it is
Pema Pera: because it cannot be caught into words
Pema Pera: we can only talk about shadows
Pema Pera: depending on the situation I throw different shadows, different descriptions
Bertrum had put a question mark behind the word quest, as indeed one should!
Pema Pera: Being cannot be pinned down as “not a quest” or “a quest” — we always have to give the context of what we mean
Fael Illyar: I just had a thought about it not being expressable in words. When expressed in words, we break it up.
Fael Illyar: but if it’s broken up enough many times in enough many ways, you can start noticing the way to put it back together.
Pema Pera: yes, that is a nice approach
Pema Pera: different shadows, like tomography
Pema Pera: each shadow of tomography is 2D
Pema Pera: but you can reconstruct the 3D object that threw the shadows
Pema Pera: Bert, what do you think?
Bertrum Quan: The 9 second tax for me produces only a few words.
Bertrum Quan: Words like—Okay. Yes, Nope.
Bertrum Quan: I’m trying to just chnage the flow of the constant press of events,
Faenik: ah :)
Bertrum Quan: change
Bertrum Quan: So, when I do write it down. It’s generally a single word.
Pema Pera: that’s perfectly fine
Pema Pera: for me it depends
Pema Pera: sometimes one word, sometimes more
Pema Pera: I tend to write a paragraph or so, more like a diary or journal, typically once an hour — and what I write at the 15 minute mark I force to keep in one line
Pema Pera: if it grows beyond one line, I reformulate it to one line at most, easy to do on a word processor
Pema Pera: I like the brevity
Pema Pera: but shall we come back to quest or no quest?
Pema Pera: Bert, do you see your exploration as a quest?
Fael Illyar: I just noticed that using “a” or “the” with Being just feels off.
Pema Pera: yes
Fael Illyar: it’s adding a hidden assumption there :)
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: we *have* assumptions
Pema Pera: hidden or not
Bertrum Quan: Well, perhaps. Writing the words that I just conveyed suggests I’m evaluatiing success or failure on some level…
Pema Pera: so drop what you “have* and sooner or later assumptions are dropped too
The question of what quest means . . .
Pema Pera: ah, but evaluation and quest do not have to go together I think
Pema Pera: do like all words, quest can be used in different ways
Pema Pera: Evaluation doesn’t work for what we do
Fael Illyar: Ah, Bert is looking for hidden assumptions in his text now :)
Pema Pera: our “quest” which is not a quest you could also say, goes beyond evaluation
Pema Pera: :)
Fael Illyar: this “beyond something” phrase is starting to bug me :P
Bertrum Quan: Yes, but I guess, I’m unable to break free of the assumption or goal
Fael Illyar: no reason to hurry with that.
Pema Pera: bug in what way?
Fael Illyar: just being aware of it is enough
Pema Pera: perhaps it is not a matter of “breaking free”, Bert
Pema Pera: more like “seeing through”
Bertrum Quan: Yes. I agree
Pema Pera: and then laughing about, perhaps
Pema Pera: the more effort you apply the harder it is
Pema Pera: or seems
Fael Illyar: I’m having rather hard time putting anything to words about what bugs me about “beyond something”.
Pema Pera: we tend to think in pairs
Pema Pera: dichotomies
Pema Pera: polarities
Pema Pera: either this or that
Fael Illyar: ah, yes, it creates a seeming duality.
Pema Pera: and we can stay stuck for a long time in any given pair
Pema Pera: until we suddenly say AHA there is a third option
Pema Pera: “beyond” the pair
Pema Pera: or outside
Faenik: ah :)
Bertrum Quan: Back to the 9 second tax…
Fael Illyar: or not beyond the pair? :)
Bertrum Quan: a question…
Pema Pera: beyond the two-way choice beyond the poles
Pema Pera: yes, Bert?
Bertrum Quan: I’ve tried these exercises in meeting, etc. I already had pad and paper out anyway. Certainly is the most challenging environment.
Pema Pera: great!
Faenik: ah :)
Bertrum Quan: But here’s my question to you. In that kind of environment, you are most drive to focus on the reality of the “agenda” let’s set–and inorganic agenda.
Bertrum Quan: The mind really resists the 9 second tax–9 second of relaxation.
Faenik: could be
Fael Illyar: Yes, I’ve noticed :)
Bertrum Quan: Is this a productive approach…
A fascinating question: in busy and somewhat pressurized environments: drop PaB for a while or somehow find a way to do it at least in some approximate way or other?
Pema Pera: how about reflecting on the resistance? Not resisting the resistance but watching it?
Bertrum Quan: Lot of typos above– driven “agaenda” let’s say, an inorganic
Bertrum Quan: How does one do that? reflecting on the resistance?
Pema Pera: IF you get into the habit of writing something — even ” — ” if you have nothing to write THEN you can find yourself writing “resistance” or “huge resistance” or “don’t want to right” or “bah!” or “damn!!!”
Pema Pera: but at least you write something
Pema Pera: and if I am correct — to be determined by trying — if you keep writing something will open up
Pema Pera: you will really see deeper into reality
Bertrum Quan: I do write something—basically saying whether taking the deep breath worked–or I achieve a momentary time-free zone,
Bertrum Quan: Most of the time is truthfully doesn’t work…
Bertrum Quan: it
Pema Pera: what does “doesn’t work” mean for you, Bert?
Bertrum Quan: It mean I continued with the flow of the fake river
Pema Pera: so you have specific expectations about what “doing PaB” could be or should be?
Pema Pera: (please continue your thought)
Bertrum Quan: What I mean by fake is the current of this layer imposed upon life.
Pema Pera: aha! but perhaps WATCHING the fake river is part of bathing in the true river!
Pema Pera: perhaps that is ALL there is to it
Bertrum Quan: Yes, there’s some truth to that too… But for me that recognition seems intellectual
Pema Pera: may I come back to Fael’s hidden assumption?
Bertrum Quan: Yes, it is relevent to this…
Pema Pera: and combine it with my favorite notion of subtraction?
Pema Pera: So the way I see it is that there are two roads to insight
Pema Pera: the relative one, of addition
Pema Pera: the absolute one, of subtraction
Pema Pera: when we learn a new skill, a new language say, or to play a musical instrument
Pema Pera: we add a skill
Pema Pera: and we know what we have to add
Faenik: indeed?
Pema Pera: it is pretty clear: words, grammar, note playing
Pema Pera: of course there is also “sense” and “feeling” but that is draped about the ingredients that you can see
Pema Pera: and there are well defined ways to go about it
Pema Pera: teaching systems
Pema Pera: like a recipe:
Pema Pera: add this, add that
Pema Pera: Now, the path of subtraction really SHOULD be much easier
Pema Pera: IF you can see what you need to subtract
Pema Pera: alas, the hidden assumptions is what you need to subtract
Pema Pera: and since they seem to be hidden, the path of subtraction seems to be more difficult
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Pema Pera: so paradoxically it is much easier to drop ballast than to learn a new skill
Pema Pera: but because we can see how to do the difficult skill learning
Pema Pera: and we can’t see how to do the easy letting go of ballast
Pema Pera: we call the path of subtraction difficult or impossible
Pema Pera: So yes, hidden assumptions is what seems to make PaB hard :)
Pema Pera: Being ununderstandable
Pema Pera: but fortunately Play can help a bit
Pema Pera: while we are running around playing we sometimes forget to completely hide our assumptions
Pema Pera: like underwear showing occasionally when playing wildly
Pema Pera: our hidden assumptions show . . . .
Pema Pera: and we can make progress in subtraction :)
Bertrum Quan: I agree the task is substraction.
Bertrum Quan: It’s hard for me but you asked the question about PaB expectations.
Bertrum Quan: Yes, PaB has exceeded my expectations.
Pema Pera: I’m very glad to hear that, Bert!
Pema Pera: fear is okay, but fear of fear is not, unnecessary and an addition
Pema Pera: frustration is okay, but frustration about being frustrated is unnecessary and an addition.
Pema Pera: seeing that means abstraction is really easy — you smile and wonder why the heck you ever added such nonsense
Bertrum Quan: Yes. I’m not frustrated by the process. I’m grateful for the opportunity to try…
Pema Pera: And I’m grateful for you both and everyone in our group trying together
Pema Pera: it makes a big difference
Pema Pera: the support and the continuity
Time for me to leave.
Pema Pera: alas, the hour is up and I have to go soon
Pema Pera: Fael, did you address some of your hidden assumptions questions?
Pema Pera: you > we
Faenik: why not?
Pema Pera: yes, Faenik :)
Fael Illyar: I don’t think I had a question. That came up originally when I was trying to answer something that I can no longer remember :)
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: well, nice talking with you both, thank you for coming here!
Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Pema :)
Pema Pera: oh hi Quilty!
Quilty Bookmite: Bye Pema
Bertrum Quan: Thank you Pema, Take care.
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Pema Pera: hadn’t notice you at all
Pema Pera: and hi Giuann!
Quilty Bookmite: I didn’t want to interrupt you.
Giuann Hax: bye Pema
Giuann Hax: :)
Fael Illyar: Oh, right, Hi Quilty, Giuann.
Giuann Hax: hi there
Pema Pera: I should sweep my camera more often :)
Pema Pera: normally it is very quiet this time of day
Fael Illyar was on phone for 10 minutes so was rather quiet for then end.
Quilty Bookmite: You might have broke your train of thought then.
Pema Pera: Have you been here before Giuann?
Quilty Bookmite: I’m on holiday this week.
Quilty Bookmite: Sorry, I mean vacation. :-)
Pema Pera: my trains run in many directions, it’s more like a railroad yard :)
Giuann Hax: mm i don’t think so…i’m not on sl from lots of time
Giuann Hax: but it’s very nice…very peaceful
Pema Pera: Fael and Quilty, can you tell Giuann what we are doing here?
Pema Pera: briefly?
Fael Illyar: sure :)
Pema Pera: thank you!
Quilty Bookmite: I can try. :-)
Pema Pera: It’s 6 pm here
Pema Pera: dinner time
Quilty Bookmite: Bon apetite
Pema Pera: see you, and feel free to come back here Giuann, any time you like!
Pema Pera: merci beaucoup!
Giuann Hax: thanks a lot!
Giuann Hax: see you!
Pema Pera: bfn
Fael Illyar: Bye :)
Fael Illyar: This is a Play as Being meeting. http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/
