2008.07.04 07:00 - Helping Self and Others

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    Adams was the guardian that morning. She sent me the following log with her comments. At the end, after Adams leaves, there is an additional part of the chat log, sent by Pia with her comments.

    When I arrived at the Pavilion Fael was already there. I asked Fael about the Wiki and Pia quickly joined us

    Fael Illyar: Hello Adams :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Fael :)
    Adams Rubble: Are we supposed to be sending the chat logs to the wiki now?
    Fael Illyar: well, not really I guess.
    Fael Illyar: still in testing phase
    Fael Illyar: Hi Pia
    Adams Rubble: Hi PIa :)
    Pia Iger: Hi, Fael, Adams,
    Fael Illyar: Although, to get used to the system, you might take a look at how it works :)
    Adams Rubble: Yes, I’ll have to do that. One can get very behind in SL in three days
    Fael Illyar: Looks like the way to get something happening is to do something yourself ;)
    Pia Iger: talking about new wiki?
    Fael Illyar: yes
    Adams Rubble: Yes
    Adams Rubble: I just asked if the chat logs should be posted there yet
    Pia Iger: sorry, I enjoy being floated.
    Fael Illyar: riddle at least posted one of his already.
    Pia Iger: Yes, I saw it.
    Adams Rubble: ah
    Fael Illyar: As long as you tell Pema you’re putting it there instead of emailing, it’s ok I suppose.
    Adams Rubble: I had the idea that at some point we were to do both
    Pia Iger: start July 1
    Fael Illyar: Well, nothing stops Pema from getting the logs from the wiki :)
    Adams Rubble: Last Monday
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Pia Iger: so Riddle was on time
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fael Illyar: might in fact be easier for him than digging them from his email
    Pia Iger: agree.
    Pia Iger: I have not read emails yet. but are the page layout discussed?
    Fael Illyar: No, not really I think
    Pia Iger: I still feel the old wordpress page look nicer.
    Fael Illyar: It would be good if someone did a graphical design for the page.
    Pia Iger: or template of page layout
    Fael Illyar: there are a few options built in but you can also modify it a lot
    Pia Iger: at the same time, we need to use the same page layout. format (fonts, typo), all guardians, right?
    Pia Iger: uniformed.
    Adams Rubble: It would look better if uniform
    Fael Illyar: check it again, I switched the theme

    Cal joined us and we continued discussing the wiki

    Caledonia Heron: morning
    Fael Illyar: Hi Cal
    Adams Rubble: Hi Cal :)
    Caledonia Heron: :)
    Fael Illyar: there’s something in the wiki now. http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    Caledonia Heron: very good - I’ll look
    Pia Iger: nicer.
    Adams Rubble: Doesn’t look like I can getr there while on SL :(
    Fael Illyar: the 1.20 client has a built in web-browser
    Fael Illyar: I’ve been running this Cool SL modifie version of 1.20.11 for a few days now. No crashes
    Pia Iger: I see the right side column is modified.
    Caledonia Heron: loading….
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Fael Illyar: anyway, there is a lot you can do to modify the wiki page’s look
    Adams Rubble: and where would logs go?
    Fael Illyar: in the left side, there is this grey list of links. one of them is what Riddle created for chat logs
    Adams Rubble: ah, I see
    Fael Illyar: I could also add a link more visibly from the front page
    Caledonia Heron: looks like they go in Play As Being Chatlogs , a link on the left
    Adams Rubble: That might be better as just “chat logs”
    Fael Illyar: true, I’ll change that
    Fael Illyar: There
    Pia Iger: how about having the date and time before title of chat log
    Fael Illyar: Yes, good idea I think
    Pia Iger: so easier to search:)
    Caledonia Heron: nice job on the wiki :)

    Cal leaves us and I ask Pia if we can continue discussing her experience where a man followed her from the subway (see: http://playasbeing.wik.is/. It was a difficult moment for her and I had been wondering how I would have reacted myself in such a situation.

    Adams Rubble: Yes, nice job! Well does anybody have any PaB experiences they would like to share?
    Fael Illyar: hmmh… at the moment my head is rather overfull with the wiki :P
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: Pia, would you mind if we discussed your subway experience a bit more?
    Caledonia Heron:
    Pia Iger: ok.
    Pia Iger: have you been thinking about it?
    Adams Rubble: Yes, first i am sorry that I allowed myself to be focused away from you that day
    Pia Iger: how?
    Adams Rubble: The message about the Bodhisattva compassion is useful to remember
    Adams Rubble: but your situation seemed to call for some prudence
    Pia Iger: definitely
    Adams Rubble: let me take a side road
    Adams Rubble: I was thinking a bit about Mother theresa
    Pia Iger: OH.
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Adams Rubble: She may have acted perfectly in that situation
    Adams Rubble: but it took her years and the dedication of her entire life to reach that
    Adams Rubble: although Christian she showed Bodhisattva compassion
    Adams Rubble: I’m not sure I am getting there yet
    Adams Rubble: We need guidelines to help us discern
    Adams Rubble: and probably even training to deal with a situation like that
    Adams Rubble: does that make sense?
    Faenik loves wells!
    Fael Illyar: are you talking about the situation Pema referred to in the conversation with Caspian?
    Adams Rubble: yes Fael but I’m discussing the situation, not what Caspian said
    Adams Rubble: I think it needs more attention
    Pia Iger: I heard about, I did not read myself
    Adams Rubble: Pema mentioned my exchange with Caspian
    Pia Iger: Mother theresa was struggling herself in her late years.
    Pia Iger: It was not easy for her too.
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Pia Iger: sometimes. she felt God was not with her. something like that
    Adams Rubble: which in a round-about-way can be kind of an inspiration to us
    Adams Rubble: when we are struggling
    Adams Rubble: to know someone so selfless also struggled
    Adams Rubble: The other point is putting purselves in danger to help someone
    Adams Rubble: The Good Samaratan story also kept popping into my head
    Fael Illyar: I think the word “selfless” itself is potentially misleading.
    Adams Rubble: please explain fael
    Fael Illyar: I’d think the people generally regarded as selfless were actually doing what they did for quite selfish reasons in the end.
    Fael Illyar: We just can’t see those reasons
    Adams Rubble: hi Stevenaia :)
    Adams Rubble: The reasons why she did things?

    Steve joined us then and wished us a happy Fourth of July

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Fael Illyar: Hi Steve
    Pia Iger: Hi, Steve,
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Fael Illyar: properly convoluted, helping others becomes a selfish goal.
    stevenaia Michinaga: happy holiday for those in the US
    Pia Iger: yes. Fael, their reason may be to ‘get a good fame’
    Pia Iger: of self-salvation.
    Adams Rubble: Thanks Steve. A big day for the Adamses :)
    Pia Iger: thanks, Steve.
    Adams Rubble: That is posible Fael but it is a life of good works
    stevenaia Michinaga: I was about to do work for a bit, but then 9 seconds later… I was here
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Adams Rubble: Steve, we are discussing putting ourselves in possible danger to help someone
    Adams Rubble: We are discussing Mother Theresa right now
    stevenaia Michinaga: I once thought about that, and realised for my child it was not even a decision that needed to be made
    stevenaia Michinaga: for others would be a bit more complex process that I ahve never undertaken
    Fael Illyar: The question mostly becomes, could you live with yourself if you didn’t do it.
    Adams Rubble: Yes, I have thought that too but the opening expereince is Pia’s enounter on a NY subway at night…I think with no one else around
    Adams Rubble: Fael that was in answer to Steve
    Fael Illyar: if the answer is no, you pretty much don’t have a choice
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, but for another friend, or someone you didn;t know who was in danger… I would ahve to think
    Adams Rubble: Fael, I think that answer is a little clearer with Seve’s example
    Fael Illyar: Yes, of course the answer is clearer in some cases
    Pia Iger: and easier to do in some cases
    stevenaia Michinaga: and I was talking more about smy life for my sons, but harm has degrees
    stevenaia Michinaga: are you talking about helping some one being mugged?
    Pia Iger: no.
    Pia Iger: I think it is more like to give time and listen to the less fortunate.
    Pia Iger: to give compassion.
    Adams Rubble: Pia, I think I remember it was night and he followed you out of the subway?
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Pia Iger: yes. He was unpleasant, and had some intention.
    Adams Rubble: So real posible danger involved
    Pia Iger: I think I did right at the time.
    Adams Rubble: I am impressed that you recognize some moral ambiguity and wanted to talk about it
    Pia Iger: Adams, you pointed it out. I notice I had some layers of thoughts in my mind.

    Pia appeared to be typing and often we waited to see what she was about to say

    Pia Iger: My AV looks typing, while I am not.
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that’s a bug that happens quite often
    Adams Rubble: Ah, I was wondering, thanks
    Fael Illyar: also happens in IM windows that it keeps telling you the other person is typing even when not
    Fael Illyar: lasts until there actually is some real typing going on
    Pia Iger: Now I am fine.
    Adams Rubble: This is a difficult topic we are discussing today
    Adams Rubble: so many layers
    Fael Illyar: yes, you typed something again so it canceled the effect when it recogniced you stopped typing :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, very complex topic, overall
    Fael Illyar: but how much of it comes from self and how much from Being …
    Adams Rubble: please go on fael
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I didn’t mean to jump in so quickly when I first arrived in the middle of it
    Fael Illyar: I was about to say it’s entirely from self but when I had finished the sentence, it jsut felt wrong.
    Adams Rubble: There is a survival issue….is that wrong?
    Fael Illyar: um, not wrong as moral issue, wrong as truth issue
    Pia Iger: truth issue?
    Fael Illyar: yes, as in I was about to say “helping others comes entirely from self and not Being” but when I had finished it. I got the feeling that can’t be true.
    Adams Rubble: Ah
    Faenik: ah :)
    Adams Rubble: there is Bodhisattva compassion
    Adams Rubble: or greater Love in Christianity
    Adams Rubble: but if we don;t survive to reach that level of compassion (Love)…..
    Faenik: why not?
    Pia Iger: and the reason the incident kept in my mind, is that I know even in a very safe situation, I may still run away and do nothing, no eye contact,
    Fael Illyar: Some of us tend to fear unknown people without any real base. No matter who they are.
    Adams Rubble: Pia, you are thinking about it, and re-evaluating your actions, that is an important step
    Adams Rubble: I think
    Pia Iger: here my fear is to misery.
    Faenik: why not?
    Adams Rubble: And fael, we do tend to fear the unknown and make judgements about appearances of people
    Adams Rubble: until we look past the facade
    Pia Iger: This particular unknown is dirty. sad, miserable.
    Adams Rubble: Unfortunately I must go now… I have the log today. If you keep discussing this andthink it is important, maybe one of you would send the rest?
    Pia Iger: ok.
    Pia Iger: have a good day. Adams
    Adams Rubble: Thank you all and I hope all of you have a great day too :)
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Adams :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Adamas, always nice to see you

    I left with Pia, fael and Stevenaia still talking.

    [from here on, the chat log and comments are from Pia]

    This topic is truly complex. I tried to clarify what I was really concerned with.

    Pia Iger: the homeless symbolized the misfortune we try to avoid in our life
    Pia Iger: I have seen them as something totally different from me.
    Pia Iger: but it may not be true.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I realize I was late, but, could you go over your encounter that started this dicussion for me?
    Fael Illyar: Ah, sorry, I need to leave as well.
    Pia Iger: bye, Fael.
    Fael Illyar: Bye, it was nice seeing you, Steve, Pia :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: Pia, I can read about it in the blogs and pick it up in the future
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Fael
    Pia Iger: very simple, a drunk/drug addict on subway wanted to talk to me, and followed me a bit.
    Pia Iger: I avoided him, not eye contact,
    Pia Iger: just walked my way.
    stevenaia Michinaga: talk to you about what? Sounds uncomfortable
    stevenaia Michinaga: and understandable
    Pia Iger: it is not for this case perse.
    stevenaia Michinaga: if drugs and drink were involved , they may not have been rational either
    Pia Iger: Right.
    Pia Iger: of cause I will not do anything by myself.
    Pia Iger: but meeting this kind of miserable ppl starts to make me think..
    Pia Iger: how I have been brushing off ppl with less fortunate.
    stevenaia Michinaga: reminds me of a parallel thought about loving yourself before you can love another, you also have to preserve you life from harm before you can live on to help preserve others
    Pia Iger: that makes good sense
    stevenaia Michinaga: but being defenseless in potential harms way is not a situation where I think compassion is in the first order of things
    Pia Iger: sure.
    stevenaia Michinaga: there are safe places to help, should you choose to
    stevenaia Michinaga: rather than letting them choose you
    Pia Iger: good point.
    Pia Iger: I don’t think I am in place of taking any action yet. More struggling in my mind

    We talked a bit of Steve’s interest in Buddhism, and then each went back RL for the July 4th day!

    Pia Iger: are you buddhist? I dont know.
    stevenaia Michinaga: actually not, I know more Buddhists than I ever realized here and in Rl, but it’s an interest mainly
    stevenaia Michinaga: I understand some of their perspectives, but ot in any great detail
    Pia Iger: I start to feel them are so different from what I assumed before.
    stevenaia Michinaga: in a nieve way I consider it a suit that might fit if I were to try it on
    stevenaia Michinaga: I;m jsut learning, not assuming about their beliefs, I went to the MET in NYC and through their SE Asian collections which speaks about them many Buddhists branches, there is quite the variety out there, not one
    Pia Iger: yes, I understand there are many branches.
    Pia Iger: I am getting more intrigued by Buddhism now.
    stevenaia Michinaga: some people I know have been studying it for decades.
    stevenaia Michinaga: there are beginners’ books but even they confuse me as it is quite complex requiting a new understanding and some very long word
    stevenaia Michinaga: words
    Pia Iger: yes. Translations of names are long.
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes

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