2008.07.08 07:00 - Eti-quette, customs, skills and Undo

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    Eti-quette, customs, skills and Undo in developing Virtual World Societies

    Today, Riddle was guardian and these comments added are mine.  They may not be good or correct comments, but they are mine. :-)

    Exactly at 7am slt, Fael, Doug and Riddle met.
    And as so often the case we started discussing time differences.

    Riddle Sideways: good morning Fael and Doug
    Fael Illyar: Hi Doug, Riddle
    doug Sosa: morning!
    Riddle Sideways: I am spoiled by SL time being my time too
    Riddle Sideways: I can say good morning and mean it
    Fael Illyar: Would something prevent me from doing it?
    Riddle Sideways: ha, no no

    but, it led into deeper realms

    doug Sosa: seems like a way of identifying oneself in old rl terms. maybe unkind, but seems "interesting".
    Fael Illyar: identifying oneself in old rl terms?
    doug Sosa: realizing that these things are ambiguous.
    doug Sosa: I think if it were dark when i come in i wouldn't say it.
    Faenik: indeed?

    Maxine joins us.  We all stop chatting about greetings to give greetings to Maxine.

    Riddle Sideways: hi Maxine
    Fael Illyar: Yes, these greetings are not a good fit for worldwide communication :)
    Maxine Walden: hi, Riddle
    doug Sosa: hello.
    Fael Illyar: Hi Maxine
    Maxine Walden: hi, Fael, and Doug

    but we get right back to how even greetings change.

    Riddle Sideways: so many things change, are changing, will change
    Riddle Sideways: it gets even to manners
    Riddle Sideways: politness has changed
    Faenik: could be
    Fael Illyar: Yes, in internet time when you can realistically be speaking to several people at once, using time unnecessarily is starting to become even impolite in some cases.
    Maxine Walden: a new etiquette needed?
    Riddle Sideways: a new etiquette evolving
    Maxine Walden: guess so
    Fael Illyar: Already has evolved in some circles. There are people who will flare at you (if you're lucky, unlucky and you get ignored) if you, for example, ask if you can ask a question.
    Maxine Walden: flare for asking a question?
    Fael Illyar: No, flare for asking if you can ask a question
    Faenik: ah :)

    Doug presents the fabulious derivation of the word "Etiquette".

    doug Sosa: eti-quette were small cards at the french court telling you how to act.
    Riddle Sideways: funny, we were talking about having cards to tell visitors how to act here
    Maxine Walden: oh, yes, we were...
    Riddle Sideways: just like doug's eti-quette
    Faenik: ????^^
    Maxine Walden: where to have boundaries...when boundaries offend vs protect
    doug Sosa: i looked it up on line
    Maxine Walden: thanks, Doug, I enjoy the origin of terms and words, gives depth

    Etiquette being the [rules?, customs?] of behavior.  Does our behavior define the world has oft thought?  Or, does the world define our behaviour?
    In different virtual worlds it is easier or harder to acomplish the same things.  The needed vs. acquired skill levels might define our behaviours.

    Riddle Sideways: each world, area and social network seems to have different etiquettes that must be learned quickly
    Riddle Sideways: you are a n00b until you get with them
    Maxine Walden: learned quickly to fit in or be very small in that company?
    doug Sosa: yet a small number seem to work well, and in the rest we are fairly free. especially if you are just quiet.
    Faenik: ah :)
    Riddle Sideways: yes, but I think that it has also changed what we can do/be in each world/situation
    Riddle Sideways: the comparision of Qwaq (which 3 of us use to visit) and SL as an example
    Riddle Sideways: with voice chat in Qwaq, we learned to take turns
    Riddle Sideways: here we blast over each other and have multiple threads going
    doug Sosa: here the beauty of the place and the attractiveness of the people leads to the need for restraint.
    Fael Illyar: restraint?
    doug Sosa: i can't keep asking for the next dance.
    Riddle Sideways: not sure I get it completely
    Fael Illyar: me neither
    doug Sosa: saved by the bell.

    The same old social stratum problems of "Big fish in small pond" vs. "Small fish in a big ocean", the precieved technology gaps and/or social awkwardnesses dressed up in several new ways.

    Maxine Walden: sometimes I feel very small in terms of the technology to stay up to speed here in PaB; trying to get the PaB wiki down, but also went to look at getting a plot (12x24) and realized I would need a lot of instruction from patient people to get fully on board with those aspects of PaB.
    Maxine Walden: is anyone else feeling that strain?
    Riddle Sideways: ha ha, yes
    Maxine Walden: Fael has kindly offered instruction re the wiki
    doug Sosa: yes, because i am not a builder i feel like a visitor.
    Fael Illyar: No need to feel pressure to learn it fast.
    Maxine Walden: but the needed learning curve seems very steep at times
    [Personal note: (please forgive) In 1977 I got my first job in computers and was staggered by the steepness of the learning curve.  In 30 years I have never seen the learning curve level off nor even decrease the steapness]
    Riddle Sideways: not really pressure... frustration is my word
    Fael Illyar: For participating fully, you need a minor fraction of what people need to actually create things :)
    Fael Illyar: Well, the basics of creating things, really.
    Fael Illyar: how to put together pieces others have built

    Ah, Maxine hits the point squarely.  What is your comfort level.

    Maxine Walden: it is an interesting question, what basics one feels a need for to feel in the full mix and it does come down to how to allocate time, energy
    Riddle Sideways: for PaB participating, all you need is to know how the kneel and type
    Riddle Sideways: speeling is optional
    Maxine Walden: haha, yes, Riddle
    Fael Illyar: Guardian participation needs a bit more :)
    doug Sosa: that's why there is real freedom here, but as riddle i think says, there are real limits too.
    Riddle Sideways: e.g. I unboxed a hut and wanted to rotate it 30 degrees
    Maxine Walden: yes?
    Riddle Sideways: it flipped, crashed, did everything but look right
    Maxine Walden: oh, no, !
    doug Sosa: when building like that can others help?
    Fael Illyar: flipped, crashed?
    Maxine Walden: suppose this is where the sandbox idea comes in and Storm's help perhaps
    Fael Illyar: Oh, right, the interface has some ... umm ... character
    Riddle Sideways: mouse moved it in 3d tooooooo fast
    Riddle Sideways: ha, I was in the sandbox
    Faenik loves wells!
    Riddle Sideways: deleted it and started again... and again
    Fael Illyar: click in a wrong way and it might do something you definitely didn't want :)
    Maxine Walden: I can almost feel the frustration, Riddle

    As if we have not talked about enough stuff today, we get into a multi-level discussion of what can be undone.

    Fael Illyar: good thing you can always undo by pressing ctrl-z
    Riddle Sideways: yes,
    doug Sosa: then you have to log out, and come back in as somebody new.
    Maxine Walden: oh? come back as someone new? have to leave the crash site?
    doug Sosa: I just tried cnt-z and nothing happened.
    Riddle Sideways: ha :)
    doug Sosa: Yes, to avoid the mess .

    Fael has rezzed the PaB sign above the central table to use as an example.

    Fael Illyar: there, I flipped it around
    Fael Illyar: interesting, ctrl-z suddenly does nothing
    doug Sosa: looks like the hat of the statue of liberty.
    Fael Illyar: ah, of course, chat window was active so ctrl-z didn't reach the object
    Riddle Sideways: if only cntrl-Z worked everywhere :)
    Maxine Walden: several of us practicing just then with ctrl-z?
    Fael Illyar: try rezzing something, then rotate or move it around and then make sure the edit window is active when you press ctrl-z
    Fael Illyar: it should return it to the original position
    Fael Illyar: and rotation
    doug Sosa: rezz?
    Fael Illyar: yes, dragging an object from your inventory on the floor
    Fael Illyar: like that

    Having moved pillows to see better from Fael's POV, Doug returned 'elevated' off his pillow.

    doug Sosa: how did i get up here?
    Fael Illyar: these pillows sometimes make us float
    Riddle Sideways: or your enlightenment
    Riddle Sideways: sorry, I was thinking of a larger sense of being able to "undo" worldly mistakes

    Doug stood, then kneeled again to make it right.  An occasion that control-Z would not fix :)

    doug Sosa: yes, got it.
    Riddle Sideways: sometimes it would be nice to exit the party and re-enter as somebody else
    Maxine Walden: oh, wouldn't be nice to be able to go ctrl-Z for those mistakes of the self in the world?
    doug Sosa: some people would just sit on their cnt-z
    doug Sosa: bell. i need to depart. thanks all.

    I'm not sure if doug sat on his cnt-z long enough to make it beep :)  More likely, his 'next meeting' nag timers went off.  Doug exits, stage up.

    Fael Illyar: makes life more interesting since there is no undo :)
    Riddle Sideways: thanks Doug
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Doug :)
    Maxine Walden: I have that annoying inner voice which tells me that 'I should have done this and this' after the fact; yes, bye Doug
    Faenik: why not?       [btw-I really love Faenik's timing]
    Maxine Walden: would be nice to ctrl-z that voice of doubt
    Riddle Sideways: and all the thoughts of what you should/could have said to that person
    Maxine Walden: yes, yes
    Fael Illyar: no need to ctrl-z that one. It should be possible to deal with some other way too.

    Adams Rubble joins us

    Fael Illyar: Hi Adams
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Adams
    Maxine Walden: yes, just smiling at the ongoing inner elements which need attention now and then
    Adams Rubble: Hello Fael, Riddle and Maxine
    Maxine Walden: hi, Adams
    Fael Illyar: Ah :)
    Fael Illyar: That "annoying" part of the description made it sound like you'd rather be without it.
    Maxine Walden: RL is tugging at my sleeve as well, something I cannot ctrl-Z so will go as well.

    And Maxine leaves us.

    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Maxine :)
    Maxine Walden: So see you all soon, and nice to talk
    Riddle Sideways: ok, thanks Maxine
    Adams Rubble: Bye Maxine :)
    Maxine Walden: bye
    Riddle Sideways: well, you two are always in nice new outfits
    Riddle Sideways: makes me feel funny always wearing the same cloths
    Riddle Sideways: I should wash them sometimes
    Fael Illyar: I switch every few days, usually
    Adams Rubble: You are concentrating on the ideas, maybe :)
    Riddle Sideways: yes
    Fael Illyar: but I don't really have that big collection ... at least not yet
    Adams Rubble: I get whims :)
    Fael Illyar: I'm online enough that I start getting bored wearing the same clothes all the time. So I change :)
    Fael Illyar: I find the way I look affects how I think to some extent.

    "the way I look affects how I think" is a common enough phrase.  
    As applied to how your avatar looks takes on a slight twist.
    How your avatar looks in different areas of SL or different worlds affecting your thoughts is a very interesting subject.

    Riddle Sideways: I am online in several different worlds and those avs change
    Riddle Sideways: so not so much clothing boredom
    Faenik: why not?
    Adams Rubble: Different worlds?
    Riddle Sideways: Qwaq, ActiveWorlds, Video Ranch and several skype based chats
    Fael Illyar: That's a few
    Adams Rubble: Yes, quite a few
    Riddle Sideways: and each time I hear of another virtual world I try to visit it
    Fael Illyar: I've so far stayed mostly in SL.
    Riddle Sideways: this is about the richest, well-rounded one
    Riddle Sideways: and has an economy
    Fael Illyar: Although I'm probably going to be tipping my toes into some OpenSim grids sometime soon
    Adams Rubble: Hmm. I haven't visited any others
    Faenik: ????^^

    now some general tech talk.

    Fael Illyar: SL is amazingly open system.
    Fael Illyar: considering that they could keep it locked up more tightly than they do :)
    Riddle Sideways: yes
    Riddle Sideways: qwaq has a feature that I have not really seen in SL
    Riddle Sideways: they can put views into your local desktop onto wall frames
    Riddle Sideways: I have seen powerpoints here, but not applications
    Riddle Sideways: and I went to one concert in SL and it was not like video Ranch
    Fael Illyar: I'd put the lack of applications to LL's focus on new features instead of making the old ones useful.
    Fael Illyar: umm, more useful
    Fael Illyar: it seems they implement bare minimum feature and then move on to something else unless it is absolutely critical for some reason to fix something in an old feature
    Fael Illyar: that places serious limits to what users can implement
    Faenik: ????^^
    Riddle Sideways: the age old problem of so few developers and such a huge list of tasks to do
    Riddle Sideways: don't think that will go away
    Fael Illyar: Yes, LL can't handle things faster than that. Which is why I'm interested in watching OpenSim develop :)
    Adams Rubble: What is LL?
    Riddle Sideways: Linden Labs
    Riddle Sideways: parent of SL
    Adams Rubble realizes they are talking of here
    Fael Illyar: :)

    and some chat about chat

    Riddle Sideways: specialized and specific languages develop so fast
    Faenik: indeed?
    Riddle Sideways: we have to learn so many nuances, slang, lol, idk
    Riddle Sideways: I guess just like building or scripting
    Riddle Sideways: chatting does the same
    Fael Illyar: yes :)
    Adams Rubble: Of course lol means different things to different people
    Riddle Sideways: exactly
    Riddle Sideways: and many LOL when they don't really LOL
    Adams Rubble: It actually has become quite meaningless
    Fael Illyar: I used to consider lolling to be something just teenagers do. I've kind of had to change my opinion here.
    Riddle Sideways: same here
    Adams Rubble changes her tag

    Adams' tag read "Say no to "LOL"

    Fael Illyar: I'm not going to use it though :)
    Riddle Sideways: ha, Adams
    Riddle Sideways: typos propagate too
    Faenik: ah :)
    Fael Illyar: you mean tpyos, right?
    Riddle Sideways: in VR3d somebody miss typed LMAO
    Riddle Sideways: as LOAM
    Riddle Sideways: and it has stuck
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Riddle Sideways: well, kids I need to go make some money in RL
    Adams Rubble: bye Riddle :)
    Fael Illyar: Bye Riddle.
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