2008.07.08 19:00 - Different Ways of Perceiving Being

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    (Comments from Sylectra)

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    Adams and Neela already were in the Pavilion when I arrived.

    Sylectra: Hi Adams, Neela

    Adams Rubble: Hi Sylectra

    Neela Blaisdale: Hi Sylectra

    At this point Pema popped in.

    Neela Blaisdale: Hi Pema

    Adams Rubble: Hi Pema

    Sylectra: Hi Pema!!

    Sylectra: How is everybody?

    Pema Pera: Hi Adams, Neela, Syl!

    Adams Rubble: I am fine

    Sylectra: Good deal, I am better now that I am here with you

    Neela Blaisdale: Me too, SL is so calming

    Friedrich joined the group.



    Neela Blaisdale: Especially in this area

    Sylectra: Sweet people like yourselves are so calming

    Neela Blaisdale: :)

    Adams Rubble: :)

    Pema Pera: Hi Fred!

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hey hey

    Adams Rubble: Hi Fred

    Sylectra: Hey Friedrich!

    Neela Blaisdale: Hello Fred

    Sylectra: I hear you but don't see you

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: boo!

    Pema Pera: For me too, these meetings are stations of calm in the middle of a very busy period in my life

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: like a good child? or is that the other way around? (seen, not heard?)

    Sylectra: THERE you are!

    Pia joined us at that moment.



    Adams Rubble: Hello Pia

    Sylectra: Hi Pia!

    Neela Blaisdale: Hi Pia

    Pema Pera: Hi Pia!

    Pia Iger: Hi, Friends.

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hi pia

    Sylectra: Fred, I am glad you didn't use the other form of that saying, which would be like a good wife, haha

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: snicker. well, its good to be seen.

    Neela Blaisdale: and heard!

    Pia Iger: I just read today 1pm blog, now it is posted so fast.

    Pia Iger: on wiki

    Adams Rubble: Fael and I have a very different view of Being :)

    Sylectra: Oh that's great!

    Pema Pera: tell us all about it, Adams!

    Pia Iger: yes. interesting confliction.

    Adams Rubble: Well, I started working on anxiety yesterday...

    Adams Rubble: and somehow it switched to Being

    Stevenaia popped in and waited to fully “rez”.



    Sylectra: Steven!

    Pema Pera: Hi Steve!

    Pia Iger: Hi Steve!

    Adams Rubble: and I think I began to understand Being a bit

    Sylectra: Adams, you have a knack for this stuff! smiles

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hey steve

    Sylectra: Steve, come sit by me

    Neela Blaisdale: Hello Steven

    Adams Rubble: and I see it as a large, all encompassing thing

    Adams Rubble: Hello Steven

    Adams Rubble: sort of like a very abstract God

    stevenaia Michinaga: one moment, I don;t want to sit on anyone..uninvited anyway

    Adams Rubble: in any case I have been thinking that out on my log the last couple of days

    Adams Rubble: Fael sent me a message questioning my viewpoint

    Adams Rubble: and we discussed it today at the 1 pm session

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn catches up on the past

    Adams Rubble: Fael sees Being from an individual standpoint

    Pia Iger: quote: Fael Illyar: Wouldn't surprise me. Although, the funny thing is that claiming Being is exactly you also screams incorrect to me :P

    Adams Rubble: a small Being so to speak

    Adams Rubble: I don;t want to misquote Fael

    Pia Iger: I just copied from the blog.

    Adams Rubble: I am thinking that fael and I are approaching this from different ends

    Sylectra: but perhaps there is room to play with our concept of being?

    Bertrum had just arrived. The conversation was moving toward the dichotomy of perception about what is Being and how you can know if you have glimpsed/experienced it.

    Sylectra: Hello Bertrum!

    Pema Pera: Hi Bert!

    Adams Rubble: I think Fael has had more of a personal experience than I have

    Bertrum Quan: Hi

    Pia Iger: Hello, Bert.

    Adams Rubble: Hi Bertram

    Neela Blaisdale: Wouldn't the Zen view be that is both you and not you at the same time

    Adams Rubble: I am approaching this from the other end

    stevenaia Michinaga: Degrees of personal experience..?

    Neela Blaisdale: Hello Bert

    Sylectra: smiles

    Adams Rubble: Yes Steve

    stevenaia Michinaga: thinking you have one or you don't

    Adams Rubble: Yes I don't

    stevenaia Michinaga: so your Being experience is personal?

    Adams Rubble: So I guess I am wondering if we both are looking in the right direction

    Adams Rubble: Steve, mine is not personal

    Adams Rubble: not that I don;t think it can be

    Adams Rubble: I just have not experienced it yet

    stevenaia Michinaga: I wonder how that is possible? right unless you haven;t had one, or haven;t recognized it for what it is

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i once had a teacher explain to me that we somehow need to /simultaneously/ recognize that we are the center of the universe, at the same time recognize our infinitesimal insignificance in the face of all-there-is

    Pema Pera: I have not read the 1 pm blog, nor Adams' recent blog entries; will do that soon! As for what Being is, and how we can deal with it, or how it can deal with us, that's a question that I expect will unfold here over months and years . . . . but glad to see the discussion starting!

    Sylectra: I like that

    Adams Rubble: Steve, I don;t quite understand what you are saying

    Pema Pera: Yes, Fred, both!

    Adams Rubble: I think I agree Fred

    Neela Blaisdale: I also

    Pia Iger: nods to what Fred said.

    Neela Blaisdale: Agree with freds teacher

    Pia Iger: thanks for correction. Neela:)

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: tnx. well, its plenty to juggle, and words don't help that much.

    stevenaia Michinaga: Being is what we are.. whether we see it in ourselves or not, in time I sure you you will, I view us all as wired for Being, just a matter of making the connections over time to see that.

    Pia Iger: since I quote Fael above, feel need to quote the other sentence she said to give a whole pic. "Fael Illyar: But for some reason trying to hold that Being is something larger than you just screams "not correct" to me.'

    stevenaia Michinaga: you are just asking "Are we there yet"

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hehe

    Pema Pera: What is essential is that we find new degrees of freedom in the world and life we thought we already knew . . . .

    Pema Pera: very direct, very experimental

    Pema Pera: in your face

    Pema Pera: words come later

    Pema Pera: to share, communicate, help each other to see better

    Adams Rubble: Thank you Steve and Pema

    Pia Iger: woops, Neela disappeared

    Pia describes her experience washing dishes.

    Pia Iger: I have been avoiding to use the word Being,

    Pia Iger: since I did feel I really understand it

    Pia Iger: but today when I was washing dishes

    Adams Rubble: I was too until yesterday :)

    Pia Iger: the cool water ran over my hands

    Pia Iger: I suddenly feel: this is being. The word just came out automatically

    Pia Iger: *since I did not

    Pia Iger: or the word came out from the inside of myself.

    Pema Pera: That's a very nice and direct description, Pia

    Sylectra: wow, Pia

    Pema Pera: that is how we really need to start, to communicate

    Pema Pera: and from there we can circle outward to concepts, theories . . . .

    stevenaia Michinaga: examples are a wonderful starting place to share

    Sylectra: I love analogies because the force my brain to perceive something differently, but along structured pattern lines

    Pema Pera: art can help here too

    stevenaia Michinaga: art?

    Adams Rubble likes art

    Pema Pera: I remember Miyazaki's anime movie Princess Momonoke, where it started to rain, and then you saw a single close up of a single rain drop landing in a puddle

    Pema Pera: somehow it gave me the shivers

    Pema Pera: wb Neela!

    Neela Blaisdale: Thanks had very bad lag but I can't see you all yet

    The discussion began to move into the difference between an active and a passive approach, between grasping for and discovering Being.

    Pema Pera: Being is at the base of everything, that's why we cannot find it when we search, but we can recognize it sometimes in its ongoing expressions, as Pia indicated

    Pema Pera: and more and more we can feel it penetrating our lives

    Pema Pera: from the inside out

    Pema Pera: nothing is outside Being

    Pema Pera: all is expressions of Being

    Pema Pera: Being is closer to us than our skin

    Pema Pera: closer than our emotions

    Pema Pera: closer than our thoughts

    Pema Pera: very very odd and strange . . . .

    Pema Pera: and yet totally natural, like a home coming . . . .

    Pema Pera: but yes, starting with examples seems best

    Sylectra: I love the contrast in what you said, Pema

    Pema Pera: like Fred's contrast

    Bertrum Quan: Pema, would you say when one begins to study the works of art over the ages, one begins to glimpse human collective consciousness?

    Pema Pera: Well, we ALL have had experiences of Being, but we generally don't tend to notice/know it . . . and all it takes is to have one clear sense of recognition, ideally with the help of a teacher who can give some additional guidance, and from there on Being can unfold all by itself, very naturally . . . .

    Pema Pera: so art can help

    Pema Pera: the smile of a child

    Pema Pera: water over dirty dishes

    Pema Pera: :)

    Bertrum Quan: What I'm suggesting, it art may be a way to get a sense of the magnitude...

    Sylectra: the icy rings around the moon on a cold night

    Bertrum Quan: from the outside...

    Pema Pera: Yes, it may help -- and anything may help, but the core is:

    Pema Pera: Being is the "AM" in I am

    Pema Pera: we can say "I am" every day

    Pema Pera: I am this I am that

    Pema Pera: I am happy

    Pema Pera: I am sad

    Pema Pera: but if we drop

    Pema Pera: I and happy and sad and everything

    Pema Pera: and REALLY focus on the AM

    Pema Pera: like with a magnifying glass

    Pema Pera: in bright sunlight

    Pema Pera: setting fire on a twig of wood

    Pema Pera: we can recognize AM

    Pema Pera: and hence Being

    Pema transitions out with a silly goodbye.

    Pema Pera: Alas, . . .

    Pema Pera: . . . my colleagues have arrived

    Pema Pera: in RL here in Nakameguro

    Pema Pera: in Tokyo

    Pema Pera: and they're coming to take me away, haha,

    Pema Pera: . . . .

    Sylectra: lol

    Pema Pera: (to a happy farm?)

    Sylectra: That was great , Pema

    Neela Blaisdale: :)

    Adams Rubble: :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: you bringing them here?

    Pema Pera: would be nice!

    Pema Pera: but alas,

    Pema Pera: They're coming to take me away, HA HA They're coming to take me away, HO HO HEE HEE HA HA To the funny farm Where life is beautiful all the time

    stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for your comments pema, always

    Sylectra: LOL

    Pema Pera: see you soon, when I come out again :-)

    stevenaia Michinaga: I had that 45 pema

    Sylectra: Have fun, Pema

    Pema Pera: (this was an age check)

    Pia Iger: bye, Pema

    Pema Pera: bye everybody

    stevenaia Michinaga: before is was banned

    Adams Rubble: bye Pema, thanks :)

    Neela Blaisdale: Bye Pema

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: ha ha, ho ho, he he

    stevenaia Michinaga: lol

    Bertrum Quan: bye

    Sylectra: A pleasure, Pema

    Pema Pera: bfn

    Pia Iger: Neela, were you typing something before your crashed?

    Pia Iger: I am still waiting... curiously

    Words versus pictures for communicating ideas about Being.

    Neela Blaisdale: Yes I was saying in response to fred that I think words can be helpful especially when describing or sharing universal feelings, like laughing with Pema!

    Sylectra: smiles

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: oh, I'm a big fan of words. but, they are often more confusing than clarifying

    Sylectra: that's an interesting debate I have heard here in this group

    Sylectra: It has many sides

    Pia Iger: on the other side, a good pc of art can speak more than thousands of word in a second

    Adams Rubble: I'd like to respond to something Bertram said

    Sylectra: OK..

    Adams Rubble: Art through the ages is at least as varied as the world today

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: though, i wonder sometimes - art is great at posing questions, but I am not sure how well it presents answers

    Adams Rubble: some contradictory

    Adams Rubble: There are so many ideas and nuances

    Sylectra: Perhaps the questions matter as much or more...

    Adams Rubble: and so much art has been lost

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: perhaps q/a is yet another false dichotomy to transcend, and asking the right questions is harder/more important than the answers

    Adams Rubble: I think we need to look at art works individually for meaning

    Adams Rubble: much as Pema is saying we should look for Being

    Adams Rubble: :)

    Bertrum Quan: My point was attempt move toward the magnitude of Being.

    The micro and macro of Being.

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i forget which ancients claimed to find the universe in a grain of sand, but i imagine if you look at /anything/ closely enough you ought to be able to discern Being

    Bertrum Quan: In one sense we are all what went before and are...

    Sylectra: or maybe if you squint a little and tilt your head to the side...

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hard part is taking that proposition seriously, as more than just poetry

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: heh

    Neela Blaisdale: So is it a question of the looking rather than the seeing?

    Adams Rubble: I agree with you on the magnitude Bertrum

    Adams Rubble: I maybe missed your point :)

    Bertrum Quan: Pema mention that art is helpful in seeing.

    Bertrum Quan: helpful

    Adams Rubble: Yes, often the artist points us to something that he/she sees

    Adams Rubble: Moon has been using the example of Japanese painters who focus on a single branch rather than a tree or a landscape

    Adams Rubble: Look at enough of them and soon that is what you see when you go outside

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: heh. I'm thinking of Crumb's drawings of the visual urban clutter

    Adams Rubble: clutter/garbage/rubble has its own aesthetic :)

    Bertrum Quan: Yes. You can see magnitude in some Japanese woodblocks, for example. The focus of the image is off into infinity. The people are only small features in the frame.

    Adams Rubble: aesthetic

    Bertrum Quan: There is a sense of the larger world--Being,

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: Adams: yes, my apartment is full of, aesthetic ;-)

    Adams Rubble: haha

    Bertrum Quan: There are micro and macro views of Being...

    Bertrum Quan: Each looking at it from a different perspective

    Bertrum Quan: In art, in life...

    Pia Iger: yes.

    Adams Rubble: and with friends?...the views of Fael and I

    Sylectra: that's fascinating

    Adams Rubble: approaching from different directions

    Adams Rubble: I hope so :)

    Pia Iger: could be:)

    Adams Rubble: (Fael and me)

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: well, the theologians may have been onto something when they talked about not being able to ascribe any positive attributes to the divine. You could only express what it wasn't

    Adams Rubble: :)

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: even the infinite is in-finite - not-finite

    Sylectra: does that sort of consign it to the negative space, though?

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: well, it leaves it up to the imagination

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: at best, you can gesture

    stevenaia Michinaga: I must go, see you all soon

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: but, yeah, i think so. who knows.

    stevenaia Michinaga is Offline

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: in-comprehensible (ultimately)

    Sylectra: oh, we lost Steven

    Adams Rubble: bye Steve

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: though, we have been talking about the value in striving

    Neela Blaisdale: Goodnight all

    Pia Iger: Nite, Neela

    Adams Rubble: goodnight Neela

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: yes, sadly i too will not-be here, momentarily

    Sylectra: nite, Neela

    Adams Rubble: bye Fred

    Sylectra: bye for now, Fred

    Bertrum Quan: bye

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: cya! fun talking.. catch up soon.

    Pia Iger: bye

    Pia Iger: I enjoy everyone's different angles.

    Sylectra: wonderful conversation tonight

    Bertrum Quan: Many paths to the same place...

    Adams Rubble agrees with all that

    Pia Iger: Thanks for hosting this, Syl

    Adams Rubble: yes Syl

    Sylectra: anytime!

    Sylectra: Thank you guys as well

    Adams Rubble: I saw your house Pia, very nice

    Pia Iger: just the default hut . need to start to work on it.

    Pia Iger: I saw you have marshmallow in front of your house.

    Adams Rubble: and hot dogs :)

    Adams Rubble: help yourself

    Sylectra: haha

    Sylectra: cute

    Bertrum Quan: I'd like to see that!

    Sylectra: I have to be going too

    Adams Rubble: There's a fire and they're there for the taking :)

    Sylectra: Thanks all for a great discussion

    Adams Rubble: Good night all :)

    Pia Iger: cool, Adams.

    Bertrum Quan: Bye Syl

    Pia Iger: good night, all.

    Sylectra: Night!

    Sylectra: Take care, Pia!

    Sylectra: :)

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