2008.07.12 01:00 - What Would Fred Say?

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    That morning, when I arrived at the pavilion, Fael was seated there already.

    Fael Illyar: Hi Pema :)
    Pema Pera: Hi again, Fael!
    Fael Illyar: I’ve been up to 3 meetings per day lately.
    Pema Pera: wow, I know how that feels!
    Pema Pera: For the first month, I was the only “guardian” :-)
    Pema Pera: before the word was invented
    Pema Pera: and we had only three sessions a day
    Pema Pera: ’cause I needed some sleep as well :)
    Fael Illyar: the word?
    Pema Pera: the word “guardian”
    Fael Illyar: ah
    Pema Pera: came into being when I went to Japan
    Pema Pera: After five weeks of three meetings a day
    Pema Pera: I went to Japan and I would be asleep at the 1 pm SLT meeting
    Pema Pera: so I asked seven people to help “guard” that time slot
    Pema Pera: so the first seven guardians arose :)
    Fael Illyar: Ah, I see, you were trying to handle that part yourself at first.
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: I just came here to see what would happen
    Pema Pera: and to my delight more and more people came
    Pema Pera: and it was a nice coincidence that after a month or so I had to go to Japan
    Pema Pera: so then I could take care of the 1 am SLT slot
    Pema Pera: that had not been used up till then
    Pema Pera: and seven others of the 1 pm slot
    Pema Pera: I still was doing three sessions a day though
    Pema Pera: so I was delighted and relieved when we got more guardians, to give me a bit of time off sometimes :>)
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Fael Illyar: Well, 3 sessions per day isn’t that much when you don’t do the log for every one of them.
    Pema Pera: well, yes, that’s the point, I guess I was spending about 7 to 8 hours a day
    Faenik: ah :)
    Pema Pera: with attending sessions, commenting the logs, sending emails, organizing — and buying our first land and getting sorted out what to do there
    Pema Pera: starting an organization always takes far more time than you might think
    Pema Pera: if you’ve never done it before . . . .

    We then talked about blogs and wikis.

    Fael Illyar: it just occurred to me by the way. Were you aware that you can add other people posting rights to the wordpress blog? Up to 35. Above that, you get to pay a monthly price.
    Pema Pera: Yes, I was aware of that
    Pema Pera: but when going collective, a wiki seemed far more flexible
    Fael Illyar: Yes, it is more flexible in that way.
    Fael Illyar: I was happy to see Storm post the log perfectly yesterday :)
    Pema Pera: I have one question though; we more or less decided not to duplicate our content on wiki and blog but . . .
    Pema Pera: now I wonder
    Pema Pera: Ah, great, about Storm!
    Pema Pera: I wonder whether a wiki is as easy to read
    Pema Pera: regularly . . .
    Pema Pera: compared to a blog
    Pema Pera: if we really had a fool-proof script, we may want to reconsider perhaps?
    Pema Pera: hard to say
    Fael Illyar: That’s one of the things I’ve been wondering. How to easily keep track of which sessions you have read and which not.
    Pema Pera: I could see a script that sets up some page in your own personal directory with pointers and a toggle read/not-read . . . .
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that should be possible
    Fael Illyar: I was looking at DekiScript yesterday and it looks like you can do quite a bit with it
    Faenik: ah :)
    Pema Pera: what kind of language is it?
    Fael Illyar: It seems it’s quite capable. I still have to see how to save data with it though.
    Faenik: ah :)
    Pema Pera: well, it would be very nice to have flexible tools, to allow a wiki to be treated more or less like a web site, where you can do what you want . . . .
    Fael Illyar: DekiScript seems to allow that to a large extent.
    Fael Illyar: I guess that’s what the “My Page” part of the wiki is for
    Fael Illyar: you can build your own helpful tools there.
    Pema Pera: oh, that’s nice!
    Pema Pera: sounds SL-like in spirit :)
    Fael Illyar: it somewhat is :)
    Fael Illyar: Oh by the way, it seems the duckwalk will be history soon :)
    Pema Pera: duckwalk?
    Fael Illyar: the standard walk animation female avatars have.
    Pema Pera: ah!
    Fael Illyar: I’m sure you’ve seen it :)
    Pema Pera: haha, didn’t know that term — wonder what male avatar standard is called
    Pema Pera: yes :)
    Fael Illyar: I don’t think it’s got a nickname. People don’t tend to gasp in horror upon seeing it :)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Fael Illyar: but that one is getting changed as well

    Bert dropped by.

    Pema Pera: Hi Bert!
    Bertrum Quan: Hi Pema, Fael.
    Fael Illyar: Oh, right, Hi Bert :)
    Fael Illyar: I’m getting too single track minded here.
    Pema Pera: We were talking software :)
    Bertrum Quan: I’m a bit late. Sorry.
    Pema Pera: On another topic,
    Pema Pera: np Bert! People always come and go here, that is fine
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Pema Pera: An hour ago I joined Caspian who now has a group of people doing zazen
    Pema Pera: three times a week, at 0 am SLT or 24 am SLT
    Pema Pera: I mean an hour and a bit ago
    Pema Pera: the night from Monday to Tuesday
    Bertrum Quan: At Zen Retreat?
    Pema Pera: and then two days and four days later
    Pema Pera: (hard to say unambigiously when it is midnight which day it is!)
    Pema Pera: not here
    Fael Illyar: hmmh… that’s the time when I do my morning meditation if I’m feeling like it.
    Pema Pera: in Yoshiwara
    Pema Pera: a different sim
    Bertrum Quan: I am not familar with that site.
    Pema Pera: He played a tape for a couple minutes of Seung Sahn, Korean zen teacher who died a few years ago
    Fael Illyar: come to think of it, I haven’t seen Caspian for a while.
    Bertrum Quan: Would you send me the landmark?
    Pema Pera: Caspian had mentioned him here a few times
    Pema Pera: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Milarepa/10/234/54
    Pema Pera: is where we had tea upstairs; the sitting was downstairs
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.

    Gaya joined us. This was the first time for me to meet her. Fael picked up the topic of information, left from a recent session.

    Pema Pera: Hi Gaya!
    Pema Pera: Come join us
    Gaya Ethaniel: hello, hi fael
    Fael Illyar: Maybe we could talk more about this “everything is information” topic we had to end before finishing the other day?
    Bertrum Quan: Hi Gaya
    Fael Illyar: Hi Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: hi bertrum
    Pema Pera: Sure, I’d be happy to, Fael
    Pema Pera: Gaya, have you been here before?
    Gaya Ethaniel: i’ve met fael & bertrum before, was here last session with fael - sorry feel free to continue ur discussion
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Pema Pera: nice to meet you!
    Gaya Ethaniel: same here :)
    Fael Illyar: I think what we basically left last time was that you didn’t understand something about my view that everything is information.
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh i think i left just before then
    Fael Illyar: This refers to my conversation with Pema a few days ago
    Gaya Ethaniel: oopps sorry
    Pema Pera: I think I made a distinction between information as such and instantiation in the real world — like a description of a stone as information and the existence of the stone as a unique concrete individual object
    Pema Pera: even though a physics analysis of the stone may lead to a description that looks like pure information, for all intents and purposes . . . .
    Pema Pera: yet I felt existence might be more than, or different from, just information
    Pema Pera: and I think you disagreed — was that it?
    Fael Illyar: That part I’ve left undecided myself but what would this “more” be?
    Pema Pera: well, I’m not sure — I think this is a very deep problem, that is often glossed over
    Pema Pera: but for starters
    Pema Pera: if I have a music CD, it contains all the information
    Pema Pera: but unless I play it, there is no music
    Pema Pera: so what is the extra “substantiation” there?
    Fael Illyar: I’d like to make a bit of a correction here. You don’t know how to observe the information on the disc and interpret it as music.
    Faenik: indeed?

    Gaya wondered about where music resides in information.

    Gaya Ethaniel: that doesn’t mean ‘music’ is not there?
    Fael Illyar: a cd player is simply a device that works as a translator so you can interpret it.
    Pema Pera: yes, but I also mentioned the difference between a map and a “you are here sign”
    Pema Pera: And what Gaya said
    Pema Pera: about music being here
    Pema Pera: there is the fact that you can copy a CD onto an other CD
    Pema Pera: onto many
    Pema Pera: and the information will remain the same in terms of bits and bytes
    Pema Pera: but each time you play the music will be a specific event
    Pema Pera: here and now
    Fael Illyar: other information in the different CDs will be different however.
    Pema Pera: no two times different
    Pema Pera: no two times same, sorry
    Pema Pera: mistake :)
    Fael Illyar: the CD is much more than just the music
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes, things can exist without outsiders perceiving it necessarily
    Gaya Ethaniel: i believe
    Fael Illyar: the music is just a small part of the information contained in the CD
    Gaya Ethaniel: or understanding etc
    Fael Illyar: umm, contained is the wrong word I guess
    Fael Illyar: the music is just a small part of the information that is the CD

    And Bertrum suggested to take people, to see whether they could be viewed as information.

    Bertrum Quan: Let’s apply this idea to people…
    Bertrum Quan: Fael, what would be your question then?
    Pema Pera: information, existence, perceiving — we may have to clarify all these terms first before finding a way to connect them . . ..
    Fael Illyar: Yes, probably.
    Gaya Ethaniel: think the terms can differ depending on the metaphor we use
    Gaya Ethaniel: music - translating / interpretating
    Gaya Ethaniel: people, objects - perceiving acknowledging
    Gaya Ethaniel: and so forth…
    Pema Pera: Fael, I’d love to hear your answer to bert, about people
    Pema Pera ponders: was it a request for a question or for an answer :-)
    Fael Illyar: I’d love to answer it but I’m not sure what’s the question
    Pema Pera: a question for a question :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Bertrum Quan: Well, if I remeber the other discussion is also related to happiness.
    Faenik: ah :)
    Bertrum Quan: remember
    Fael Illyar: I get feeling this “everything is information” viewpoint I have is sort of parallel and one I can’t relate to the other viewpoint of self and Being yet.
    Faenik: why not?
    Pema Pera: even if everything is information, do you see a difference between the number 3 and a particular configuration of 3 objects in a particular place?
    Pema Pera: the number being universal, and the instantiation being concrete and individual?
    Fael Illyar: Yes, the particular 3 objects contain hugely more information
    Fael Illyar: … I’m using contain again

    Containing information, this is an interesting way of talking about information, something we didn’t really get to analyse sufficiently.

    Gaya Ethaniel: yes connection between number 3 & the 3 objects are made by us - ‘information’
    Gaya Ethaniel: however the objects exist as they are?
    Bertrum Quan: It is also symbolic
    Bertrum Quan: the number 3
    Pema Pera: not clear, Gaya, interesting question though!
    Fael Illyar: I’m equating existence and information.
    Fael Illyar: as in existence == information
    Gaya Ethaniel: information is a tool we use to understand things around us but things exist wtihout us attaching tags - is this clearer?
    Bertrum Quan: I agree with that.
    Faenik: why not?
    Bertrum Quan: The number 3 is a symbol we have created to explain three objects
    Pema Pera: but if I can come back to Fael, saying that three objects contain more information than the number 3, imagine that you could make a complete description, then would there be anything different between the complete description of all the overlapping mathematical constructs and the “real” thing?
    Fael Illyar: number 3 is the symbol we’ve created to convey the idea of number 3
    Fael Illyar: number 3 itself is meaningless.
    Bertrum Quan: The symbol system has to be shared for it to have meaning
    Fael Illyar: the represetation of information is not the information.
    Fael Illyar: like the hand pointing at the moon isn’t the moon.
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Gaya Ethaniel: Fael - i understand ur view on ‘everything is information’ better now though i differ slightly as explained before :)
    Pema Pera: I am not sure I would use the word “information” for something beyond description
    Pema Pera: we may be differing more in what we call information than in how we see connections
    Fael Illyar: Pema, is it beyond description because we lack the capacity to describe it or is it truly not possible?
    Pema Pera: well, what do you call “information”?
    Faenik: ah :)
    Pema Pera: :)

    Fael mentioned the possibility of viewing information as Being.

    Fael Illyar: … now that I’m thinking of it, the way I use “information” starts to feel synonymous to Being
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: more than say ones and zeros?
    Fael Illyar: Yes, ones and zeroes is one way of expressing information
    Fael Illyar: it’s the “hand” not the “moon”
    Pema Pera: ah! I think we then have different definitions of information
    Pema Pera: Gaya, is that what you were hinting at too?
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes
    Pema Pera: Bert, which one do you use?
    Gaya Ethaniel: fael ‘moon’ is also almagmation of information?
    Pema Pera: if you have a preference, that is?
    Bertrum Quan: I’m not sure what you mean by which one?
    Pema Pera: of course there are many layers here: the number, the symbol that poitns to the number
    Pema Pera: those are different
    Fael Illyar: Gaya, I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Also, is this a question about “moon” as a pointer or as what is pointed at?
    Pema Pera: but Fael, do you think the number in turn points to information?
    Gaya Ethaniel: if i understand ur view correctly fael
    Gaya Ethaniel: u mean everything can be broken down into ‘information’
    Gaya Ethaniel: is that right?
    Fael Illyar: ‘broken down’ would be wrong
    Fael Illyar: expressed as information
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes
    Fael Illyar: however, it doesn’t mean we could express it.
    Fael Illyar: or absorb the expression of it
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes that’s what i was getting at
    Bertrum Quan: I actually don’t think everything can be expressed as information in that way.
    Gaya Ethaniel: in that case, as pema said ‘information’ can be somewhat misleading term to use it don’t u think?
    Gaya Ethaniel: one can understand ‘information’ as terms, symbols etc, that’s how i understood it anyway
    Pema Pera: yes, I just looked it up on the web, there are at least a dozen ways to define “information”
    Fael Illyar: Could be, I’m primarily exploring this myself. I haven’t talked about this to people before recently.
    Pema Pera: in more limited and in much wider senses . . . .
    Pema Pera: Something tells me that Friedrich would have a lot to say when he reads this — but he recently told us that he doesn’t read sessions unless they have an appetizing title — can we think of a title that will attract Friedrich? :-)
    Fael Illyar: Information as Being?
    Pema Pera: Or “what would Fred say?”

    And so the title for this session was born.

    Bertrum Quan: Well again, Fael, I would like to propose that I don’t belive everythong can be expressed as information.
    Fael Illyar: haha, that’d draw his attention :)
    Fael Illyar: Ok, Bert, let’s have it :)
    Bertrum Quan: First of all, I like the title anyway!
    Fael Illyar: However, if there is something that can’t be expressed as information, I wonder how you’re going to relate it to us :)
    Bertrum Quan: There are many things we cannot perceive, cannot know.
    Pema Pera: One definition of information is “Computer Science. Processed, stored, or transmitted data.” and another from the same dictionary “Knowledge derived from study, experience, or instruction.” — talking about VERY different animals here!
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes due to our limits as human
    Fael Illyar: Oh yes, there are many things we can’t know and therefore can’t express. But that doesn’t conflict with what I’m saying
    Gaya Ethaniel: therefore it doesn’t mean there are ‘things’ that exist just because we don’t understand is that what u mean Bert?
    Fael Illyar: Yes, quite differente “animals”, Pema :)
    Bertrum Quan: Yes, in part.
    Bertrum Quan: In the quest for Being… at least for me I not looking for more information.
    Bertrum Quan: Not the the sense of 0 and 1. Not interms of chemical reactions.
    Bertrum Quan: in terms
    Fael Illyar: It’s highly likely that my “Information” is synonym for Being.
    Pema Pera: but would “information” be beyond dualities, Fael?
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Gaya Ethaniel: but surely there are things that exist outside the realm of ‘information’?
    Bertrum Quan: That would be my question too.
    Fael Illyar: I think your questions occur because you see information more narrowly than I do.
    Bertrum Quan: What about cololective consciouness? Would that be infomration?
    Gaya Ethaniel: is fascinating but gotta go… tea’s ready
    Bertrum Quan: collective conciousness?
    Gaya Ethaniel: will read blog, thanks for ur time
    Bertrum Quan: Tea is better!
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: bye
    Pema Pera: Thanks for stopping by, Gaya!
    Bertrum Quan: bye
    Pema Pera: Do you know about our blog?
    Faenik: why not?
    Fael Illyar: She does
    Pema Pera: okay, thanks!

    Gaya took off, and we continued talking about Being.

    Pema Pera: it would be nice to have an emergency brake in SL, to delay someone’s departure by, say, ten seconds :)
    Fael Illyar: this would explain why I feel like I “get” Being.
    Pema Pera: just enough to say “btw!”
    Bertrum Quan: How about in real life too?
    Fael Illyar: just send an IM :P
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: Fael, what about my question concerning Being being beyond dualities
    Pema Pera: do you seen information as beyond dualities?
    Fael Illyar: I’ve ended up to Being some years ago but called it information.
    Faenik: ah :)
    Fael Illyar: I’m not sure I understand your question
    Pema Pera: Being as I understand it is beyond all polarities,
    Pema Pera: beyond local and global, or large and small, or good and bad, and so on
    Pema Pera: all inclusive in a way that cannot be accurately expressed in usual language
    Fael Illyar: Well, yes, key being usual language.
    Fael Illyar: Who can say if there isn’t some way to accurately express that?
    Fael Illyar: We can’t do it but that doesn’t mean it’s not possible.
    Faenik loves wells!
    Pema Pera: so in principle, we can use any word as a pointer to “THAT” or suchness or “AM”. I like Being, but I’m open to other words — but information I associate with something that has a more quantitative element in it.
    Bertrum Quan: Being as defined by Pema would be pure.
    Pema Pera: this, not that
    Bertrum Quan: It would be in my view beyond dualities.
    Pema Pera: information seems specific in a way that I don’t see Being as being (sorry, no pun intended)
    Faenik: could be
    Fael Illyar: I’m much less experienced in explaining Being than Pema. It’d naturally seem less pure if I explained it. Same goes for how I explained information just now.
    Pema Pera: To see a world in a grain of sand, is a poetic way to point at Being — but to see the “information” in a grain of sand as something being the same as all information anywhere, that seems confusing to me — but that is perhaps not how you meant it?
    Pema Pera: But I’m interested in trying, for sure!
    Pema Pera: I’d love to have different attempts
    Pema Pera: and then we can see what we feel works or not
    Pema Pera: experimentation is key in exploration
    Bertrum Quan: I was making the point the other day that elightenment brings us closer to the pure state of Being.
    Pema Pera: Instead of “beyond dualities” I could say “beyond distinctions” — making it even harder (for me) to associate that with “information”
    Fael Illyar: I just realized myself that I don’t see the way I use word “information” being dualistic.
    Pema Pera: Bertrum, can you say more about that?
    Bertrum Quan: I wish I could type faster and more accurately. That would bring me closer to a state of better communication!
    Pema Pera: fast typers have an unfair advantage in SL :)

    Indeed! Somehow I can type pretty fast, probably because so much of my work involves writing, from code to papers to email, but I realize that typing speed can be a real handicap.

    Fael Illyar: Unfortunately, only typing more will help you there. Wishing doesn’t … might actually be counterproductive.
    Pema Pera: Fael, I’m beginning to see more of what you mean, and I’m certainly happy to consider how much mileage we could get out of that term — we should keep it on the shelf for sure, to try out
    Bertrum Quan: Okay, what intrigues me here are the many viewpoints.
    Bertrum Quan: Not just in this discussion today, but the others
    Pema Pera: (our animations all type equally fast, btw!)
    Fael Illyar: would be interesting if the animations changed depending on how fast the characters are coming in:P
    Pema Pera thinking about AO will double speed typing — to see wether the arguments would appear to carry more weight . . . .
    Pema Pera: Sorry, Bert, please continue!
    Bertrum Quan: Enlightenment. That can mean many things. AO too!
    Pema Pera: yes, a big topic in itself
    Bertrum Quan: But it’s not a function of simply learning or observing.
    Pema Pera: as for the many viewpoints, we do have to wiki where we can define viewpoints beyond having to express them in a sound bit in a single session
    Pema Pera: The word “enlightenment” can be quite misleading . . . . .
    Bertrum Quan: How so?
    Fael Illyar: until yesterday, I was wondering why my mind always seemed so quiet when I was meditating.
    Faenik: could be
    Fael Illyar: but it seems it’s got to do with that I think without words very often.
    Fael Illyar: so there is no noise to be had since my thoughts rarely end up as words.
    Bertrum Quan: That makes sense to me Fael.
    Pema Pera: yes, Fael
    Pema Pera: Bert, to respond to what you said,

    The topic of enlightenment is a tricky one; it is one of those words that is used a lot, but it can have so many different shades of meaning, and of expectation.

    Bertrum Quan: Pema, why is Enlightenment misleading in the context of Being?
    Pema Pera: Enlightenment seems to suggest that at first you are not enlightened and that something happens in time that makes you enlightened — that is the misleading part of it
    Pema Pera: real insight does not happen in time
    Pema Pera: in fact part of it is seeing through the illusion we call time
    Pema Pera: it is not a matter of “obtaining” or “getting” something
    Pema Pera: but dropping / subtracting
    Pema Pera: not adding
    Bertrum Quan: I don’t disagree.
    Fael Illyar: Pema, about the wiki, I don’t think we have any meeting logs from you there.
    Pema Pera: yes, I should add them, Fael
    Pema Pera: will do
    Bertrum Quan: Pema, again, Enlightenment is not something that is necessarily experienced by everyone. Would you agree?
    Pema Pera: To answer this most precisely, I would have to question “experience”, for one thing, and the notion that there is “somebody” who can experience enlightenment
    Fael Illyar: I keep being amused at the nondualistic nature of words related to these things :)
    Pema Pera: If we look at the stories of great practitioners
    Pema Pera: when they reach what we call enlightenment — or seem to reach
    Fael Illyar: as in being both at once
    Pema Pera: there response is typically “how funny!”
    Fael Illyar: and neither
    Pema Pera: “I looked in the wrong place all the time!
    Pema Pera: implying that they never “reacherd” something
    Pema Pera: and that there is no “them” or “you” either
    Fael Illyar: In a way it’s reaching but not really :)
    Pema Pera: but I am not suggesting that there is no difference between a great practitioner and a typical person — in relative language, that would be foolish
    Pema Pera: perhaps that is what you meant, Bert?
    Bertrum Quan: That is the point you have made before. And one the I agree with. It is here and now. But there may be as you say some “subtracting” to do!
    Bertrum Quan: It’s not as easy as it sounds…
    Pema Pera: indeed!!!
    Pema Pera: but not difficult either — beyond easy and difficult
    Pema Pera: that’s what so difficult about it
    Pema Pera: it’s not even difficult!
    Faenik: why not?
    Pema Pera: because it’s beyond dualities, Faenik
    Bertrum Quan: Fael, I also think you’ve conveyed someting important about the quiet of meditation (without words)
    Faenik feels dizzy.

    I sympathize with Faenik!

    Bertrum Quan: something
    Fael Illyar: something important … well, it seems to be what meditation is for.
    Fael Illyar: have people realize thought is not words
    Bertrum Quan: Absolutely. It’s simple and it’s not meaningfully expressed in words.
    Fael Illyar: after that you can grasp the other ideas, when you’re free of words.
    Bertrum Quan: Words are tools.
    Fael Illyar: yes, particularly ill suited tool for Being :)
    Fael Illyar: but … that’s what we have.
    Bertrum Quan: Okay. But to truly see… words may not be the tools we need.
    Fael Illyar: I’d go as far to say that those tools should be put down to see.
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Bertrum Quan: Perma, you should have the last word on that…
    Pema Pera: oh, I don’t like last words . . . .:)
    Fael Illyar: haha :D
    Fael Illyar: Pema is rebelling against being too revered :)
    Bertrum Quan: Yes, I guess that’s it…
    Pema Pera: and against words
    Pema Pera: especially last words!
    Pema Pera: about words
    Pema Pera: :)
    Fael Illyar: Bert, I’m pretty sure Pema would’ve said something without asking if he thought what I said was wrong :)
    Pema Pera: not necessarily :)
    Pema Pera: hehe
    Pema Pera: if it was completely wrong, in my opinion, probably yes
    Pema Pera: but there is such a spectrum of interpretation of say “meditation” . . . . .
    Fael Illyar: Well, there is always that everything put in words is wrong :P
    Pema Pera: well, yes, but that’s the ultimate conversation stopper :)
    Pema Pera: words can be used in “skilllful means” mode
    Fael Illyar: but luckily you can use them to guide people in the right direction by choosing carefully what is the wrong part of what you’re saying
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Pema Pera: haha
    Pema Pera: hopefully
    Pema Pera: well, I think I’ve used enough words today
    Bertrum Quan: Yes.
    Pema Pera: in the 110 minutes of our loooong session
    Bertrum Quan: Me too.
    Pema Pera: but clearly very enjoyable
    Pema Pera: otherwise we wouldn’t have stayed here so long :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, we had fun today :)
    Pema Pera: Thank you both!
    Fael Illyar: you too Pema :)
    Fael Illyar: Talk to you again later :)
    Bertrum Quan: bye Pema, Fael.
    Pema Pera: I’ll put something on the wiki Fael
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later :)
    Pema Pera: c u

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