2008.07.22 13:00 - Being is Seeing Being

    Table of contents
    No headers

    That afternoon, just before 1 pm, I met Adelene near my house, and after talking for a while we walked up to the pavilion nearby, where we met Doug and Gen.

    Pema Pera: Hi Doug!
    Pema Pera: Have you met Adelene yet?
    Pema Pera: Hi Gen!
    doug Sosa: hi (always forge to turn on chat!)
    Pema Pera: haha, easy to do
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Pema!
    Pema Pera: Gen, meet Adelene!
    Adelene Dawner: Hello, all. :)
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Adelene nice to make your acquaintance
    Pema Pera: Adelene has crossed path with PaB only a few days ago, but has jumped in right away, with gusto
    genesis Zhangsun: hey solo!
    Pema Pera: Hi Solo!
    doug Sosa: hi.
    Solobill Laville: Good day, all!
    genesis Zhangsun: great!
    Pema Pera: I can’t stay too long
    Pema Pera: but I just wanted to say hi, now that I’m no longer asleep during these afternoon meetings, having returned to the US from my stay in Japan
    genesis Zhangsun: Glad to hear that you are enthusiastic Adelene!
    doug Sosa: jet lag?
    Pema Pera: not much
    Pema Pera: used to it

    Soon after Solobill had arrived, Storm dropped by as well.

    Pema Pera: hi Storm!
    genesis Zhangsun: wonderful of you to join us!
    doug Sosa: jet lag shows up in the 9 sec as a kind of heavy tide
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey Storm
    Storm Nordwind: Hi!
    Solobill Laville: How’s the Berkeley coffee, Pema? ;)
    Solobill Laville: hi Storm
    Solobill Laville: That can help with jet lag I’m told :)
    Pema Pera: Great, Solo, I’m in “berkeley espresso” — even the name of the place connects :)
    Pema Pera: and free wifi
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Pema Pera: what more do I want?
    Solobill Laville: brb
    Pema Pera: I guess I’m a few hundred yards away from Gen in RL :)
    doug Sosa: a breeze, and peace in our time.
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    Pema Pera: Doug, you’re asking for a lot!
    genesis Zhangsun: wow yes I know Berkeley espresso but haven’t had their coffee
    genesis Zhangsun: i am more of a tea person usually
    doug Sosa: well, you asked…
    genesis Zhangsun: Fael and I had a funny discussion about coffee last week
    Pema Pera: ;)
    Storm Nordwind takes a sip of diet coke in RL
    Pema Pera: yes, I read in the blog
    genesis Zhangsun: yes thats right
    genesis Zhangsun: she loves the toblerone coffee
    doug Sosa: pema, will you run the blog dialog through a super computer and look for constellations?
    genesis Zhangsun: a friend of mine from RL should be here any moment
    Pema Pera puzzled about stars in blogs . . . .
    doug Sosa: stars?
    doug Sosa: well, stars yes, given that most are dressed for the oscars
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: Adelene and I just had a great conversation
    genesis Zhangsun: yes?
    Pema Pera: just before this session
    Pema Pera: She had mentioned earlier that she is autistic
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey Myoko!
    Pema Pera: Aspergers to be more precise
    genesis Zhangsun: Welcome to the new location
    genesis Zhangsun: nice huh?
    Pema Pera: Hi Myoko!
    genesis Zhangsun: myoko hasn’t been back since we moved
    Adelene Dawner: Actually, Pema, please do not use that term to refer to me. It may be accurate, but the division of the spectrum in that way only leads to problems.
    Pema Pera: Myoko, come join us

    Myoko arrived, and Adelene talked about the life and world of being autistic.

    Pema Pera: sorry Adelene, you prefer “autistic” of the best term?
    Adelene Dawner nods. “autistic” is fine. And not ‘person with autism’, either.
    Pema Pera: thanks!
    genesis Zhangsun: how does this affect your life Adelene?
    Pema Pera: please make sure to correct us if we misuse a term
    doug Sosa: good clarity
    Myoko Fhang: Hi guys. Great being here.
    doug Sosa: hi
    Storm Nordwind needs to relog. brb
    genesis Zhangsun: yes welcome I am glad you came!
    Adelene Dawner: Many ways, Genesis, which are hard to pin down as I’m not entirely sure how *you guys* function, either, to make good comparisons.
    genesis Zhangsun: hmmm yes good point
    Pema Pera: Adelene, can you give us the web site you mentioned? I found that very interesting to read.
    Adelene Dawner: The most relevant part here is that I tend to think slowly, and not be able to hold two thoughts at once - I can’t listen and think at the same time. I can more easily read and think, though, by doing them sequentially in small parts. Go ahead, Pema, sorry for the aside.
    Pema Pera: np Adelene!
    Pema Pera: please continue
    Pema Pera: Hi ThreeDee!
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Threedee!
    Threedee Shepherd: hello

    Threedee joined us, and all in all there were eight of us.

    Adelene Dawner: The other part that’s relevant here is that I don’t do certain kinds of social chatting, which are difficult and less than meaningful to me. I don’t mind if other people do, though. But if I seem quiet, it’s likely because of that.
    Storm Nordwind nods
    doug Sosa: we all should be so focused.
    Adelene Dawner chuckles.
    genesis Zhangsun: is it just me or did the chime not go off?
    genesis Zhangsun: maybe i’ve become deaf?
    Pema Pera: http://aspergersquare8.blogspot.com/2007/07/scripted-language-and-authenticity.html
    Adelene Dawner: Chime went off for me, maybe the sound isn’t loaded for you.
    Storm Nordwind: It did go off. I’m just adding something to my blog about it!
    Pema Pera: is the web site that Adelene showed me
    Pema Pera: What I was struck by, reading that web site, was the way in which the contrast between austistic and non-austistic was relevant for the PaB discussions we have had about what we really are
    doug Sosa: this could be very helpful.
    Pema Pera: beyond all our usual identifications, like gender or job or nationality, etc, what we are is something totally different
    Pema Pera: each of us brings in a different angle, and different identifications that we can wear lightly — and Adelene has just broadened our angles even further
    Threedee Shepherd: Pema, is it “something totally different” or “something totally more”?
    Pema Pera: you could say more, but in the sense that it is not just “more elements of the same kind”
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    Pema Pera: it is “more” in the sense of “beyond”
    Pema Pera: and at the same time it is what everything already is
    Adelene Dawner: A level of ’self’ that most people don’t usually consider :)
    Pema Pera: it is the base of everything else
    Solobill Laville: Fascinating website Adelene, thank you!
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: Yes thank you Adelene!
    doug Sosa: i got lost. what is “it”?
    Pema Pera: Being
    Pema Pera: as being beyond identifications
    genesis Zhangsun: different combinations of being
    doug Sosa: oh, that “IT”
    Pema Pera: ;)
    genesis Zhangsun: or different reconfigurations
    Pema Pera: I have sometimes used an an (imperfect) metaphor: Being is a bit like the light from the projector , the base of a movie, yet not any element
    doug Sosa: it is also the dark of the movie
    Pema Pera: yes, indeed!

    Adelene gave more web pointers.

    Adelene Dawner: For those who find that blog useful… I have another one that is in many parts an even deeper/clearer discussion of brain function and the results thereof.
    Adelene Dawner: http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/
    Solobill Laville: ty!
    Solobill Laville: Pema, do you think then that it is no also the projector?
    Solobill Laville: *not
    doug Sosa: how can one “save” a url iposted in a chat?
    Pema Pera: Adelene, which entry in that last URL?
    doug Sosa: No, the projector is just an intermediary.
    Solobill Laville: hmmm
    Storm Nordwind: Doug, you can check your own chat log if you have one, or click on the URL in the Local chat window (Communicate), launch the browser and bookmark it.
    Adelene Dawner: The blog itself is useful; it would be hard to pick out specific entries, though I can find one or two quickly.
    Pema Pera: oh, sure, Solo, you can include the projector, as well as all elements going into the making of the movie — and which are not visible within the movie, when we focus on the normally obvious “parts” of the movie
    Solobill Laville: I should add to my last question; and the chairs, and the screen, and popcorn, etc.
    Pema Pera: Thanks, Adelene!
    Solobill Laville: ah, yes
    Pema Pera: yes, Solo, but as I said the metaphor is imperfect
    Pema Pera: Being sounds like an abstract word, but is the most concrete resource for us
    Solobill Laville: well, they all are, but yours are pretty good ;)
    Pema Pera: So to connect with what Adelene said
    Pema Pera: and the conversation I had with her just before this session
    genesis Zhangsun: how so Pema?
    genesis Zhangsun: how is it concrete?
    Pema Pera: I think that the struggle that autists have in understanding how to deal with us non-autists
    Pema Pera: and conversely, the challenges we face in dealing with autists
    doug Sosa: bell, i need to bye
    Solobill Laville: bye doug
    Pema Pera: are very relevant to this question of Being as a resource
    genesis Zhangsun: bye doug
    Threedee Shepherd: bye
    Pema Pera: bye Doug!
    Storm Nordwind waves

    Doug left, and Adelene gave us some more specific pointers.

    Pema Pera: Let me try to say in a few words
    Adelene Dawner: http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=287 . http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=431 . http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=449 . http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?page_id=462 . http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=510
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Pema Pera: whenever we deal with challenges, there is a separation: two sides of an argument, two contrasting or conflicting notions or ideas or situations
    Pema Pera: and Being is what can be found to be what is beyond/in/under/as those distinctions
    Pema Pera: everything we normally deal with is mired in dualism
    Pema Pera: dichotomies
    Meesha Cuttita: they seem to be having the meeting right now
    Pema Pera: but Being is what can help us make sense of those dichotomies
    Meesha Cuttita: if you like, we could join?
    Pema Pera: hi Meesha!
    Meesha Cuttita: Hi Pema!
    Pema Pera: of course, any time!
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi meesha!
    Leelaji Inshan: Yes
    Meesha Cuttita: I’m showing my friend around
    Storm Nordwind: Plenty of room in here!
    Pema Pera: Hi Leelaji
    genesis Zhangsun: Yes i think i understand it is the base from which we can form common understanding
    Pema Pera: please sit down
    Meesha Cuttita: and it looks like we came just in time
    Meesha Cuttita: This is Leelaji

    Meesha and Leelaji joined us, so there were nine of us, after Doug had left.

    genesis Zhangsun: even if we cannot know exactly what the “other” experience is exactly like
    Leelaji Inshan: Hallo
    Solobill Laville: So then, knowing Being experientially? Or simply as an intellectual understanding as well?
    Storm Nordwind: What a great name - Leelaji. Namaste!
    Solobill Laville: Hello!
    genesis Zhangsun: yes good question Solo
    Solobill Laville: I think that may be a leap of faith for some (the latter)
    Pema Pera: Not only intellectually, Solo, not only experientially, all of those and more and to be more precise:
    Pema Pera: it is Being knowing us rather than we knowing Being
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Pema Pera: Hi Gaya!
    Pema Pera: What a great crowd today!
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    genesis Zhangsun: hmmmm that is so interesting
    genesis Zhangsun: i have felt this in the 9 second practice recently
    genesis Zhangsun: oops
    genesis Zhangsun: like a entity that is getting to know me
    genesis Zhangsun: and becoming more comfortable with me
    genesis Zhangsun: sounds a little crazy :)
    Pema Pera: yes, very much — we normally overlook what we really ARE
    genesis Zhangsun: but seems like the right place to say these things
    Adelene Dawner: The way I see it… I am Being. I am, at this moment, using an autistic body/mind to gain certain experiences and lessons that I need to have in order to grow, and I’m also using this body/mind to share lessons with other aspects of Being.
    Pema Pera: exactly, Adelene!
    Storm Nordwind bows to this insight
    Solobill Laville: :)) That is a great thing, Adelene!
    genesis Zhangsun: so we are the projectors?
    genesis Zhangsun: being is the light?
    Pema Pera: so whenever we forget this, and return to being something else, seemingly, we use a trick: we “play as Being”, as if we were Being, and then we can remember, and return to Being playing us :-)
    Pema Pera: Being is everything
    Pema Pera: but no “thing”, and also no “collection of things”
    Pema Pera: Being is All
    Adelene Dawner: Being is the light, and the projector, and the people watching the movie, and everything else.
    Pema Pera: yes!
    Pema Pera: Being is the Great Player, playing all and everything
    Pema Pera: the dreamer of the dream
    Pema Pera: yet the dream itself as well
    Meesha Cuttita: may i ask how you know this?
    Pema Pera: and Being reaches us its hand, to help us, to help us recognize who we are
    Pema Pera: The short answer, Meesha, is that I have learned to see/recognize this, to some extent
    Pema Pera: like seeing that the theorem of Pythagoras is true

    Storm and I fall in with Adelene’s comment about there being nothing to reach for.

    Adelene Dawner: There is no ‘reach’, I think, Pema. We already *are* being. We just don’t always remember it.
    Pema Pera: yes, exactly, Adelene!
    Storm Nordwind nods
    genesis Zhangsun: then who we are is Being
    Meesha Cuttita: but when this is a concept, it becomes just another concept of the mind, or so it seems to me
    Meesha Cuttita: another form of identification
    Pema Pera: oh yes, Meesha, no concept
    Pema Pera: we just use words to convey
    Pema Pera: to talk
    Meesha Cuttita: the mind wants to identify, find a self somewhere
    Meesha Cuttita: if it’s not in this body, wellč then a concept of some sort
    Solobill Laville: That is the intellectualization dilemma…
    genesis Zhangsun: or the limit of words
    genesis Zhangsun: Pema when you say it helps us recognize who we are
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks there are so many gems from this conversation to put into her diary tonight
    genesis Zhangsun: is this who we are as a form of Being?
    Solobill Laville: an expression of Being
    Meesha Cuttita: In my opinion, we cannot learn it
    Pema Pera: We can learn to see everything as Being
    Pema Pera: including ourselves
    Meesha Cuttita: no matter how many books are written, you still have to experience it
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: not learn as an intellectual thing, I mean, Meesha
    Solobill Laville: yes
    Pema Pera: learn as in learning to open your eyes
    Storm Nordwind: We cannot read and learn it, but we can become it by unbecoming what we are really not
    Meesha Cuttita: yes that’s where i see the danger in talking about it… the mind conceptualizes it
    Pema Pera: learning to stop closing our eyes
    Solobill Laville: yes
    Adelene Dawner: Being is everything, and it has differentiated… split, in a way… in order to allow the parts to interact and refine themselves. The entire point of that differentiation is learning - every Thing that exists, exists as a lesson or part of one.
    Meesha Cuttita: right
    Pema Pera: yes, Meesha
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    genesis Zhangsun: to teach what lesson?

    I brought up Stevenaia’s characterisation of Being as Love.

    Pema Pera: Yes, Adelene, and Being can also be called Love, as Stevenaia here once said
    Gaya Ethaniel: how so Pema?
    Solobill Laville: It can also be called a Miracle, or so I’ve felt
    Adelene Dawner: I don’t think I can even begin to put words to that, Genesis.
    Threedee Shepherd: If there is interest I would go back to words: The Tao states, “the name you can say isn’t the real name.” Does that imply there is a real “name” and if so is it word, concept, thought, or something else, or more?
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    genesis Zhangsun: acceptable
    Pema Pera: no “real” word, Threedee, only pointers, like “Tao”
    Solobill Laville: no, no name Threedee
    Pema Pera: and Gaya, Love is complete, like Being
    Gaya Ethaniel: in that case why would you choose a particular word to describe Being ie Love, Miracle?
    Pema Pera: in fact can be used as interchangeable pointers
    Solobill Laville: or the finger pointing toward the moon
    Pema Pera: some pointers are more useful than others, Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry I meant why particularly Love as Being*
    genesis Zhangsun: yes i love that saying solo
    Solobill Laville: yes, we get stuck on looking at the finger; i.e. the words
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Meesha Cuttita: maybe because love has no antonym, miracle either
    Meesha Cuttita: and being is not a dualistic concept
    Pema Pera: yes!
    Meesha Cuttita: you could say Middle Way
    Gaya Ethaniel hears pins drop
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah i see
    genesis Zhangsun: nice way to say that Meesha
    Pema Pera: What we can do here is help each other to see, more and more, and we are using words to celebrate that seeing, not to “reach” it or “construct” it
    Pema Pera: celebrate and confirm
    Gaya Ethaniel: Would you say sense instead of see too?
    Pema Pera: sure
    Pema Pera: two different words for pointing to the same thing
    Gaya Ethaniel: I ‘feel’ or ’sense’ Being rather than ’see’
    Pema Pera: “seeing” conveys the clarity
    Pema Pera: “sensing” conveys the intimacy
    Threedee Shepherd: to wander closely around what is unseen can leave paths that help *outline* it
    Pema Pera: very much so
    Pema Pera: and that can be shared, as we do here
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok i see it Threedee
    Storm Nordwind: Like the Indian chant of “neti neti” Threedee
    Gaya Ethaniel wonders what neti neti means
    Storm Nordwind: “not thus, not thus…”
    Threedee Shepherd: similar
    Gaya Ethaniel: thanks Storm

    Then I asked Adelene the same question that Meesha had asked me.

    Pema Pera: Adelene, my turn to ask: how do you know all that, about Being :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: so now I’m seeing Being, who is seeing Being?
    Adelene Dawner: Good question. I wish I knew the answer myself. :)
    Pema Pera: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: Do you feel a sense of distance from people and events Adelene?
    Pema Pera: Being is seeing Being, Gaya
    Meesha Cuttita: gaya, that question is like the sound of one hand clapping, lol
    Adelene Dawner: Gaya: Being is seeing being. I can see my hand, and my hand is still me.
    genesis Zhangsun: not in an unpleasant way but a sense of detachment?
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Adelene Dawner: Genesis: Yeah, a bit.
    Pema Pera: haha, Adelene, thinking alike there
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Storm Nordwind: Being is the process and the processed, the seer, the seen and the seeing
    genesis Zhangsun: I wonder if that give you a wider perspective
    genesis Zhangsun: which Being seems to require
    genesis Zhangsun: than to be caught in symbolic chatter
    Adelene Dawner: Different. Perhaps wider. I can’t compare it to normal modes, obviously.
    Pema Pera: and yes, Meesha, all those hands are one hand . . . clapping
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks Adele is very good at putting things in plain way

    Meesha then poses a central question, to all of us.

    Meesha Cuttita: can i ask you all one thing?
    Meesha Cuttita: why are you practicing this?
    Meesha Cuttita: what is your purpose?
    Storm Nordwind: It is an experiment
    Gaya Ethaniel: Being for me doesn’t stay in same size, if that makes sense
    Adelene Dawner: I *can* say that my normal mindstate is very similar to what I’ve read about meditation. So the things that people get from meditation, it’s unsurprising that they’re easy for me.
    Solobill Laville: It is to hone my mindfulness
    Storm Nordwind: To investigate a way of reaching that experience
    Meesha Cuttita: hm, so in you wanting to reach an experience you might be surprised to find there is no you, lol
    Meesha Cuttita: be careful… thin ice
    Pema Pera: I like to know reality, what reality really is.
    Pema Pera: oh sure, Meesha!
    Pema Pera: very surprising
    Pema Pera: no me
    Gaya Ethaniel: Meesha, mainly to feel at east & peace
    Pema Pera: very liberating
    Solobill Laville: hehe, that is a great fear Meesha!
    genesis Zhangsun: to be free
    Meesha Cuttita: free yes
    Threedee Shepherd: if the found is not another illusion, it must be what is to be dealt with
    Gaya Ethaniel: ease*
    Pema Pera: reaching is impossible, as Adelene emphasized
    Meesha Cuttita: wonderful
    Solobill Laville: But to realize there is no little you, only Big Everything is a wonderful thing
    Meesha Cuttita: hahaha, yes Solobill
    Meesha Cuttita: so you’re not really doing it to liberate YOURSELF
    Gaya Ethaniel: I personally do not ’seek a knowledge’, just to be able to love everything, including myself
    Meesha Cuttita: but to liberate all sentient beings
    genesis Zhangsun: I must be going now
    Pema Pera: Here is a hint: think of ANY experience you had that was really wonderful - and you will remember that the sense of you was de-emphasized in that experience
    Storm Nordwind: That describes me Meesha
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Solobill Laville: Bye, Gen!!
    genesis Zhangsun: bye everyone
    Pema Pera: bye Gen!

    One by one we start to leave.

    Myoko Fhang: Past bed time for me (currently in Denmark), so I got to go. Very inspiring, thannks for inviting me Genesis
    Adelene Dawner: cya Gen
    genesis Zhangsun: should I post this chat log?
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Meesha Cuttita: bye genesis
    genesis Zhangsun: or would someone else like to post the whole thing?
    Threedee Shepherd: bye
    Pema Pera: Thanks Myoko, please come join us any time you like
    Solobill Laville: I’m leaving as well, Gen
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Pema Pera: 1 am 7 am 1 pm 7 pm
    Pema Pera: Bye Solo!
    Meesha Cuttita: me too, it was nice to see you all, bye bye
    Myoko Fhang: Nice being her.
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    genesis Zhangsun: bye myoko!
    genesis Zhangsun: nice of you to come!
    Pema Pera: and yes, I have to leave too
    genesis Zhangsun: good night!
    Solobill Laville: Thanks, all, nice to meet so many of you!
    Pema Pera: what a wonderful conversation!
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Threedee Shepherd: yes
    Pema Pera: Thank you all, and especially Adelene!
    Adelene Dawner: Indeed ^.^
    Pema Pera: till next time!
    Storm Nordwind: Namaste

    Tag page (Edit tags)

    Files 1

    FileSizeDateAttached by 
    No description
    119.52 kB09:31, 9 Apr 2010SolobillActions
    You must login to post a comment.
    Powered by MindTouch Core