2008.07.25 07:00 - Measure of Trust

    Table of contents
    No headers

    Adams Rubble was the guardian and the comments are hers for now (see two images below)

    I arrive first and am soon joined by Pema. We discuss my recent experience I recounted on my blog http://rubblebornthoughts.wordpress....2nd-daily-log/

    Adams Rubble: Hi Pema :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Adams!
    Adams Rubble: I am absorbing what you wrote to me
    Pema Pera: We all are absorbing what you write on your blog, daily :-)
    Adams Rubble: It has been quite a bit lately

    Storm and I had a series of exchanges discussing spirituality, paths, and destinations. Storm had pointed out that everyone might have the same destination. Often people were on the wrong bus. I picked up on this analogy and it has been one of my favorite metaphors the past couple of days

    Adams Rubble: I like Storm's analagoy of riding buses
    Adams Rubble: I think I have been on a wild ride
    Pema Pera: oh, yes

    Doug is next to arrive follwed by Maxine; Pema and I finish our conversation

    Adams Rubble: Hi Doug
    Pema Pera: hi Doug!
    Adams Rubble: I don't know if it is the right bus but I am enjoying the ride
    doug Sosa: hi!
    Pema Pera: :)
    Adams Rubble: I don't think the God part of my experience is important
    Adams Rubble: If I am correct that this came out of my subconscious...
    doug Sosa: "right bus but i enjoy the ride." great thought to come in on.
    Pema Pera: :)
    Adams Rubble: then the last part was just contrived
    Adams Rubble: it is the first part that is important
    Pema Pera distrusts any sentence with "just" in it
    Adams Rubble: Hi Maxine :)
    Pema Pera: hi Maxine!
    Maxine Walden: hi, Adams and Pema and Doug
    Adams Rubble: hmmm
    doug Sosa: hi Maxine
    Adams Rubble: Well leave out the "just" then
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera: ;)
    Pema Pera: perhaps no need at this stage to judge
    Pema Pera: but yes, the experience itself is the most important, I agree
    Pema Pera: and to continue exploring the experiences
    Adams Rubble: maybe try a different bus?
    Pema Pera: sure!

    Pema then turns his atention to Maxine and Doug, continuing the discussion from yesterday http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...orld_Needs_Now

    Pema Pera: Maxine and Doug, I hope my stubbornness yesterday was not too unpleasant :-)
    doug Sosa: not at all, very evocative.
    doug Sosa: also wonderfully serious.
    Pema Pera: feel free to correct me if you think I was not accurate in some sense, or you think I misunderstood some aspect(s)
    Maxine Walden: it felt important, and a bit intense at the time, but it feels so important to try to be clear, each of us, and to sort these various things out...
    doug Sosa: I felt invited to listen more carefully, wait to "see".
    Maxine Walden: so that we can 'speak' and feel 'spoken to', in all the little nooks and crannies
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: I had lunch with Stim yesterday in RL
    Pema Pera: and we discussed this intensity question
    Maxine Walden: ah...yes?
    Pema Pera: he emphasized how little we know about each other, about who's behind the avatars, with no body language and so on, no way to see literally eye-to-eye person-to-person
    Pema Pera: of course, Maxine and Doug, I have the great advantage of having met both of you in RL
    doug Sosa: yet there is a new kind of intimacy here.
    Pema Pera: if that had not been the case I probably would have been more cautious
    Pema Pera: or maybe not -- hard to say
    Pema Pera: Yes, Doug, that is definitely the case
    Pema Pera: I haven't met Adams in RL
    Pema Pera: and I don't feel I'm particularly more cautious in dealing with her :-)
    doug Sosa: But the beautiful women are both blood warming and eye distracting - but i wouldn't have it otehr wise. If only in rl..!
    Pema Pera: since so much is being expressed in her blog -- even up to the point of Adams talking to her typist :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Maxine Walden: it speaks to the measure of trust that is growing here among us...
    Pema Pera: YES!
    Pema Pera: that's one of the really AMAZING aspects
    Pema Pera: of what we're doing
    Maxine Walden: the level of trust?
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: I used an image the other day
    doug Sosa: It feels "natural", as though in rl we somehow miss each other, but here our more natural tendency to trust comes out.
    Pema Pera: of a burning house
    Pema Pera: guardians standing outside next to house
    Pema Pera: a group of PaB guardians
    Pema Pera: holding up one of those trampoline like devices
    Pema Pera: to save people jumping out of the building
    Pema Pera: each pulling in their own direction away from the others
    Pema Pera: to make room in the middle, a safe place for others to land
    Adams Rubble: Hi Gaya
    Pema Pera: (what do you call these things?)
    doug Sosa: hi gaya.
    Pema Pera: Hi Gaya!
    Maxine Walden: it also feels so important to be able to come back like this morning and re-visit these intense times and speak to the perhaps ruffled buts
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    doug Sosa: safty nets.
    Adams Rubble: safety net?
    Pema Pera: ah!
    Maxine Walden: ruffled bits, sorry, typo
    Maxine Walden: hi, Gaya
    Pema Pera: safety trampoline?
    Adams Rubble: funny tyoe
    Pema Pera: not quite a net
    Adams Rubble: typo
    Maxine Walden: typos have their own wisdom
    Pema Pera: Maxine, do you want to say more re bits?
    Pema Pera: the ruffled ones?
    doug Sosa: the net, each pulling away from the others, as if by pulling away they are pulling together. I love "ruffled bits".
    Maxine Walden: not sure it is necessary, but I was aware that I took a few heavy, doubting feelings from yesterday's conversation, and did write a note to you about them, which you responded to in a way which helped the 'bits.'. I am so awed by how vulnerable we can feel, us as 'grownups' mostly still with open hearts and earnest hearts, can feel some pain in these frank discussions...
    Pema Pera: yes, absolutely
    Pema Pera: I am feeling vulnerable here on a daily basis :-)
    Adams Rubble: You are putting yourself out there, Pema
    Maxine Walden: and yet it is so necessary to be able to have that openness and frankness and feel whatever doubt there may be and then come back, trusting that we can all grow and help each other...feeling vulnerable does feel like such an essential part of all of this exploration
    Pema Pera: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel also agrees that supportive environment is important
    Maxine Walden: and I am aware of feeling it a lot...does bring that 'child' part out which is there is us all, all the time
    Maxine Walden: oh, I have to watch the time, will need to leave in about 5 min, just a forwarning so that I don't seem to disappear
    Adams Rubble: I feel that this little separation, i.e. we hide a bit behind our avatars, helps ease that vulnerability a bit
    Gaya Ethaniel wonders whether Maxine sees the child or idenfy/immerse in the child
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Maxine Walden: In my vulnerability to doubt and openness to learning, I feel that vulnerability to make me feel childlike, Gaya, does that speak to your question?
    doug Sosa: one of the things i think i've learned here is that we really are not so vulnerable. No physical thraet, and psychicly we can leave at any moment. "sticks and stones..but name can never hurt me" seems more real here. The lesson is we could go farther faster in honest speech, with faith that we can recover from anything.
    Gaya Ethaniel: no one sees me blushing :)
    Adams Rubble: I feel much of what you describe Maxine
    Maxine Walden: ah, yes, Adams
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes Maxime you're being one with the child rather than watching/aware of it
    Gaya Ethaniel: imo, such identification would lead to you feeling emotions attached to that child
    Adams Rubble: yes Doug
    Maxine Walden: I do want to mention, may make Pema blush, that i find it rather astounding how direct he can be, righteous about Being at times, and very gracious, generous, patient with all the tos and fros that he encounters with us
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera: Thank you, Maxine
    Pema Pera: and the only reason that can happen
    Gaya Ethaniel feels that PaB needs Pema as he has been
    Maxine Walden: takes a wide-ranging sense of humanity to bridge all those aspects of 'being-Being'
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Pema Pera: is that simultaneously "pema" operates on two levels so to speak
    Pema Pera: allow me to try to express that
    Pema Pera: since that is really at the heart of everything
    Pema Pera: somehow the "distillation" effect of SL seems to make it more possible
    Pema Pera: or more easily possible
    Pema Pera: to abandon myself -- my self
    Pema Pera: to let something speak through me
    Pema Pera: for short I call that Being
    Pema Pera: although I could use longer expressions
    Pema Pera: depending on how this "inspiration" as we may call it presents itself
    Pema Pera: so basically with each sentence I type there are two things going on at the same time
    Gaya Ethaniel wonders how Pema can type his thoughts from Being out here so fast...
    Pema Pera: there is Being speaking -- in a very direct way, it feels
    Pema Pera: and at the same time there is Piet/Pema watching
    Pema Pera: and completely aware what is going on
    Pema Pera: yet standing aside, so to speak
    Pema Pera: as an instrument, being played by Being
    doug Sosa: Buddha compared, i think, the elf to the onion. what i have been learning here is to let there be space between each layer. And let that continue opening ..
    Pema Pera: So yesterday, Maxine and Doug, that is what I tried to empasize
    doug Sosa: "self"
    Pema Pera likes the "elf of the onion" :-)
    Maxine Walden: yes, I think I can gather that, and identify with, feel as well here right now. Does not feel so for me all the time, but right now yes
    doug Sosa: Pema, what strikes me in what you say is the either or binary way of expressing your understanding. .
    Pema Pera: So that is one point I'd like to make clear; the second one is that all that gets very hard to express when we project it back into ordinary mind function and language to describe that . . . .
    Maxine Walden: oh, dear friends I have to go, will look to the log for the rest of this wonderful discussion. Be well, all.
    Pema Pera: Yes, doug, there is a phase shift, there are two side
    doug Sosa: such as only self or outside the self. ther is something to the in between?
    Pema Pera: *sides, and nothing in between
    Pema Pera: they are qualitatively different
    Pema Pera: like a hand and a handpuppet
    Adams Rubble has to expand the chat window to get all of that
    Pema Pera: when something drops, it drops, it doesn't float halfway somehow
    Pema Pera: :)
    doug Sosa: outside time?
    Gaya Ethaniel slips one of herself rarely now otherwise Being sees and decides for them
    Pema Pera: ultimately yes, Doug
    doug Sosa: I too must go. awkwardly, bye.
    Pema Pera: but there are many gradations there on the "no-self" side
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Adams Rubble: bye Doug
    Pema Pera: bye Doug!

    Doug leaves and Pema has a few more observations to make to me

    Pema Pera: Adams, if I can get back to your blog briefly
    Adams Rubble: yes?
    Pema Pera: I very much think that your experience of God #1 is an important part of your quest, your journey
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Pema Pera: and interpreting that as "subconscious" probably short changes it
    Pema Pera: promoting it as "the truth" overcharges it
    Pema Pera: It sounds like a wonderful experience, to be tasted and then swallowed
    Gaya Ethaniel says that their #1 God was Gaya to begin with
    Pema Pera: very much like Storm described it
    Adams Rubble: you mean not to hold on to it?
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: good to write down
    Pema Pera: and in so doing letting go of it
    Pema Pera: paradox!
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Adams Rubble: It was so wonderful that it will make it hard to do
    Pema Pera: writing down can actually free up
    Adams Rubble: yes, it did in a way
    Pema Pera: no reproduction later on
    Pema Pera: the experience was unique
    Pema Pera: can't be repeated
    Pema Pera: that would be pinning a butterfly on a piece of paper
    Pema Pera: would be most disrespectful to even try
    Pema Pera: something else will come next time
    Gaya Ethaniel nods

    ..and then Pema has some more thoughts about Maxine and Doug and for the rest of us; Pema and Gaya start a new thread

    Pema Pera: I'm sorry I did not have time to finish my thoughts to Maxine and Doug, but
    Pema Pera: what I tried to say was that the shift from self to no-self is a break
    Pema Pera: not a gradual thing
    Gaya Ethaniel: Pema - do you mean like a blink or lightening moments?
    Pema Pera: but once you get a taste for the no-self, then there there is an enormous landscape, a very wide spectrum of deeper and deeper insights
    Pema Pera: Not so much in time, Gaya
    Pema Pera: although the transition can happen that way too
    Pema Pera: how to express this
    Gaya Ethaniel: for me it suddenly happened with no gradual development or expectation on our part
    Pema Pera: again, let me go back to the movie
    Adams Rubble 's body language is showing she is thinking quietly
    Pema Pera: seeing a scene as part of the movie story and as light are two ways of watching a movie scene, and there is no in between
    Gaya Ethaniel zooms around to see Adams
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: can you say more Gaya, about suddenly happening?
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... looking lovely today Adams
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... i left a comment on Adam's blog think yesterday's
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: can't exactly duplicate here - would you mind having a look?
    Gaya Ethaniel: maybe Adams paste here for us?
    Adams Rubble: It was on the "Behold Being" post
    Gaya Ethaniel: k one sec
    Adams Rubble: "Adams, since last night, I now see myself feeling the tingles when listening to music rather than feeling the tingles. Used to feel moved and totally immersed in music; there was a connection or communication between music and myself if you know what I mean. Last night I attended a concert and during the second half of the programme, this happened - seeing this RL person feeling the tingles. Other things which I am unable to spell out followed… anyhow, can you believe that at the time, the orchestra was actually playing Vaughan Williams Sympony #4? Well so it was more like shivering was felt by us :) I had expected to have such experience with Mahler or Bach..."
    Gaya Ethaniel: fast Adams
    Adams Rubble knows how to copy and paste
    Pema Pera: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel is just too slow
    Gaya Ethaniel: Are you into Classics Adams?
    Gaya Ethaniel: classical music*
    Pema Pera: thanks for sharing that, Gaya!
    Adams Rubble: Yes, I like classical music
    Gaya Ethaniel: np
    Gaya Ethaniel: maybe then you understood what i was talking about a little?
    Adams Rubble: yes, I think I do
    Pema Pera: yes, you talk about stepping aside, I think
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Pema Pera: letting what appears appear by itself
    Pema Pera: without you doing it
    Pema Pera: or holding on to it
    Pema Pera: so you can also watch it
    Gaya Ethaniel: and.... i'm reluctant to discuss the actual experience but... everything was felt
    Gaya Ethaniel: all for one, one for all so to say :)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Adams Rubble: :)

    Gaya makes some points about my experience and a possible attachment

    Gaya Ethaniel: it wasn't a blissfulness you've described though Adams
    Gaya Ethaniel: was more like tranquil Awareness that lasts and lasts
    Gaya Ethaniel: there has to be a trigger Adams but in my case, i just let it be not forcing the process
    Adams Rubble: Yes, Gaya. I knew it wasn't complete :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: it will come just 'drop' your attachment to your experience
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: another attachment
    Gaya Ethaniel nods

    Pema comes back to the movie analogy

    Pema Pera: If I may come back to the movie analogy: while seeing the movie as movie, as stories unfolding, there is a whole spectrum of holding on to the story more tightly or more relaxedly, more loosely -- and there is a whole spectrum of how to deal with the movie-as-light, with the room, the setup etc -- but between the two is the gap I talked about with Doug
    Gaya Ethaniel: one can be blind to see if attached
    Gaya Ethaniel: that reads badly in terms of grammar :(
    Pema Pera: now when we are talking here, it may be very very hard to see at any given moment whether someone is talking from the one side or from the other side of the gap . . . . . . .
    Gaya Ethaniel: i do feel though once people get to know each other well, the distiction can be made... maybe not the trasition between the two very well
    Pema Pera: in RL it is easier to recognize, from so many clues; here it really is far more difficult, something Stim emphasized during the lunch I mentioned
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... funny you've said that Pema - sometimes i 'see' expressions on your face when you say something. For me the line between SL and RL are getting blurrier each day
    Pema Pera: My response is to not want to make a judgment type distinction myself in so far as who experiences what -- but I do make distinctions between how we talk about it, as I did yesterday with Maxine and Doug
    Pema Pera: yes, Gaya, I have that experience too
    Pema Pera: it is all very intriguing
    Pema Pera: at the same time we also have to be careful
    Pema Pera: it is also very easy to project our own understanding into what the others offer here
    Pema Pera: so there are two effects, pulling in two directions:
    Pema Pera: the distillation and projection effects
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm... not sure about projecting anymore - used to do that before yesterday now there is no distiction between us and everything around us and the world we are in
    Pema Pera: When you are talking, you distill your experience and presence here, making it more powerful in some sense, more focused, yet in some other sense much is left out, and to reconstruct I have to use my own experience to do so
    Pema Pera: Like watching a cartoon
    Pema Pera: in a few lines someone is sketched
    Pema Pera: but I have to use my whole life's experience interpreting the cartoon
    Pema Pera: and the interpretation can be rather dependent on culture and background
    Pema Pera: and different for different people
    Pema Pera: so there is enhancement and dilution both going on at the same time
    Gaya Ethaniel: i see where you're coming from Pema - looks like you're describing the existence of different paths available to all beings
    Adams Rubble: yes, very complicated
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks that Pema and we are on different pages from somewhere...
    Pema Pera: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks that she should script a translator for talking in PaB

    I try to make a point about trust but don't get it out. What I was trying to do was to recognize that my experience was one of those unusual events in which it case it might be helpful to be able to read my body language because it stretched belief (at least for me)

    Adams Rubble: That's where the trust factor comes in
    Pema Pera: I'm talking more simply how the presentation of a person as an avatar distills some traits, highlighting them, while leaving out oather aspects that are imporant too
    Gaya Ethaniel: trust and compassion/love Adams
    Gaya Ethaniel: i see Pema - i've understood what you meant about yourself when doug was here all along :)
    Pema Pera: In a couple minutes I have to move to a different part of SL, to an astronomy meeting
    Pema Pera: starting iat 8 am
    Gaya Ethaniel: Adams, the trust and compassion is already in you - you just need to see it
    Adams Rubble wants to say more...doesn;t have the thought completed
    Gaya Ethaniel: sure Pema have fun I hope
    Pema Pera: oh sure, it is all fun
    Pema Pera: please, Adams, do go ahead
    Pema Pera: I still have a couple minutes
    Adams Rubble: I feel that a certain turst has developed between you and I because I think we have both been open
    Gaya Ethaniel regrets saying all these stuff as they could sound corny
    Pema Pera: not to worry, Gaya
    Adams Rubble: But I understand that the experience yesterday goes beyond that
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Adams Rubble: But I think you have trust my veracity on that
    Gaya Ethaniel: because you were developing trust with yourselves
    Gaya Ethaniel: however many you have at any given moments
    Pema Pera: you mean I have trusted you in speaking the truth, Adams? Sorry, just want to make sure I understood that correctly
    Pema Pera: trusted that you spoke the truth?
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel looks up dictionary for 'veracity', golly these people use fancy words
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera: oh, yes, that is central
    Pema Pera: and given in all we talk about here
    Adams Rubble: It seems unbelievable to me :)
    Pema Pera: in that sense there is no judgment
    Pema Pera: and the hardest part is to have no juddment to yourself
    Pema Pera: not to judge yourself
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Pema Pera: we are here together
    Pema Pera: and we have a tendency to judge each other :)
    Pema Pera: and we learn to do that less than we usually do
    Pema Pera: so dealing with different guardians
    Pema Pera: and learning to not judge them
    Pema Pera: is like playing scales
    Pema Pera: practicing not to judge yourself :)
    Pema Pera: which is the hardest performance :-)
    Pema Pera: (using Gaya's music metaphor here)
    Gaya Ethaniel has learnt not to judge so much by allowing 'room for doubts' in given situtaion
    Pema Pera: well, have to run now
    Pema Pera: wonderful talking with you all here!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good day Pema
    Adams Rubble: OK, bye Pema :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Pema Pera: c u soon!
    Tag page (Edit tags)
    • No tags
    You must login to post a comment.
    Powered by MindTouch Core