2008.12.14 19:00 - ..to attain greater spiritual awareness?

Pema Pera: if somebody can keep a chat log and email that to me that would be great
Pema Pera: piet@ias.edu
Pema Pera: tofu yes
Pila Mulligan: I have not learned ho yet
Pema Pera: and many other good Kyoto vegetables
Pila Mulligan: how*
Dharma Voyager: hey there
Pema Pera: it is easiest to set default settings to record, Pila
Pema Pera: oh, hi Dharma!
Pila Mulligan: hi Dharma
Dharma Voyager: hey !
Dharma Voyager: hehehe
Pema Pera: What a pity that I have to leave right now!
Dharma Voyager: hahahah
Dharma Voyager: I will be quiet
Pila Mulligan: have a nice lunch Pema
Pema Pera: just explaining I'm being dragged off to lunch
Dharma Voyager: what fun
stevenaia Michinaga: what's for lunch?
Pema Pera: too bad . . . .
Pema Pera: oh, it's buffet
Dharma Voyager: I'm probably going to be writing and article
Claire Beltran is Online
stevenaia Michinaga: ..smile
Pema Pera: much choice in fish . . .
Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: enjoy
Dharma Voyager: but will be in and out
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pila
Pema Pera: hi Steve!
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Claire
Pila Mulligan: hi Claire
Pila Mulligan: Claire *
stevenaia Michinaga: who's filling in for you tonight, Pema

I forgot to not ask.....smile

Claire Beltran: Hello...
Pema Pera: Hi Claire
Pema Pera: you perhaps, Steve :)
Pema Pera: if you like
stevenaia Michinaga: ...grins... ok
Pema Pera: thank you very much!
Pema Pera: You can just email me the chat log
Pema Pera: I'll do the rest
Pema Pera: c u soon !
Pila Mulligan: bye
stevenaia Michinaga: no way, that's the fun part
stevenaia Michinaga: hmm, have a seat Claire...smiles
Claire Beltran: I don't know if I'm fit to talk tonight... but I will.
Pila Mulligan: does the chat logger record purring?
Adelene Dawner chuckles and shakes her head.
stevenaia Michinaga: Iw as going to listen tonight too... points to Listening group displayed above my head
stevenaia Michinaga: does it record anything?
Pila Mulligan: maybe someone could sing a song or recite a poem
stevenaia Michinaga: 2008.12.14 19:00
Threedee Shepherd: 19:11 to be exact ;>
stevenaia Michinaga: surprised there isn't more Being poetry
stevenaia Michinaga: thanks three, it;s just a marker so I can find the tonight in my log
Threedee Shepherd: I know, I am trying to regain my "cuteness level" after a few weeks of illness :>
Claire Beltran: Cuteness level?
Adelene Dawner chuckles at Three.
stevenaia Michinaga: Three, keep working on it

Threedee Shepherd: Ok, I had this discussion with my wife last night at dinner, and it fits here: What does it mean to attain greater spiritual awareness?
Pila Mulligan: it must be meaningful because lots of folks seem to aim for it
Pila Mulligan: seem to aim*
stevenaia Michinaga: ok, on that line ... it it an attainment? or something assigned to you by others?
Pila Mulligan: I like attain :)
Claire Beltran: How did this come up between you?

stevenaia Michinaga: ty Ade for the ding
Threedee Shepherd: My wife is very much into spiritual things and it was something that came up in a study group she is in.
stevenaia Michinaga: good question Claire
Pila Mulligan: as a simple answer rife with potentially conflicted meaning, I'd say it is a better appreciation of what is real
Claire Beltran: Did your wife say anything about what the study group had mentioned, Three?
Threedee Shepherd: Oh, it had to do with Jacob wrestling with the angle, story
Pila Mulligan: :)
Claire Beltran: However, Pila, I think that brings up the tricky question of what 'real' is... and that's kind of a big one to tackle. I think it's a matter of approach... at least, initially.
Claire Beltran: Sorry if I'm cutting in anywhere...
Pila Mulligan: yes, I agree it is Claire
Pila Mulligan: tricky, tough to tackle and a matter of approach
Threedee Shepherd: For the sake of discussion, I reoriented the discussion to the basic beginning, and asked "What is spiritual awareness"
Pila Mulligan: did the group have an answer 3D, or did they not consider the question
stevenaia Michinaga: but do you speak of awareness or enlightenment, Three?
stevenaia Michinaga: anyone can attain greater spiritual awareness
stevenaia Michinaga: just kick a bible, instant awareness
stevenaia Michinaga: well perhaps not so spiritual
Threedee Shepherd: well, the group went in other directions, which is why it come up at dinner, when I asked her about it.
Threedee Shepherd: is "spiritual awareness" the same thing as enlightenment?
stevenaia Michinaga: I thought of the same question
Claire Beltran: I'm not sure that it is. Perhaps there's one within the other.
Claire Beltran: 'Awareness' to me indicates an awakening, while 'enlightenment' indicates mastery of a sort.
Threedee Shepherd: My sense is that a Buddhist seeking enlightenment is not after the same thing as a Judeo-Christian seeking to be more connected to the "spiritual"
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, hard to be enlightened w/o awareness
Threedee Shepherd: I guess I really want to explore what we might mean when we use the word spiritual?
stevenaia Michinaga: thinks of an internal awakening when I hear those words
Threedee Shepherd: what is "internal awakening"?
stevenaia Michinaga: well I have never felt an awakening of sorts, so I can only presume
stevenaia Michinaga: it presumes you are asleep prior to the awakening of sorts
stevenaia Michinaga: so I am either still asleep or haven;t been awakened yet
Threedee Shepherd: you have slipped away from the question. What do we mean by spiritual, say as opposed to non-spiritual being?
Pila Mulligan: In the story of Jacob, he wrestled with the angel in order to obtain a blessing -- he would not let the angel go until the angel gave him the blessing. That would suggest the idea of a struggle to obtain more spiritual awareness, in a Judeo-Christian context.
stevenaia Michinaga: aww, was focusing on awakening
Pila Mulligan: we may not have angels, but we have practices to help out spiritual being, whatever it is
Pila Mulligan: practices*

Threedee Shepherd: exactly, Pila, and the story also has interesting implications with dealing with a supposedly omnipotent god, who should always win every wrestling match
stevenaia Michinaga: he/she better win
Dharma Voyager: listens
Pila Mulligan: the fundamental question of course goes to the existence of a soul, then maybe heaven, then maybe angels, or even wings an harps
Threedee Shepherd: Jacob won
stevenaia Michinaga: oh
Pila Mulligan: yes, and got his new name, Israel
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
stevenaia Michinaga: it;s been a while since I read that chapter
Pila Mulligan: I was just thinking earlier, if there heaven has pearly gates is there a pearly fence?
Dharma Voyager: hehehe
Pila Mulligan: the idea of an angel presupposes the spiritual -- i.e., a soul apart form a body
Threedee Shepherd: I note I have still not had any definitions/explanations of the concept of "spiritual" offered?
Pila Mulligan: spirit = soul
Pila Mulligan: soul*
Pila Mulligan: a non-material part of a being
Dharma Voyager: unless your understanding of what and angel is is incorrect
Pila Mulligan: that is their essence
Pila Mulligan: yes :0
Dharma Voyager: (not accurate)
Threedee Shepherd: so, "spiritual awareness" means being more in touch with the "soul" part?
stevenaia Michinaga: let em retract something I said, once, on an intense weekend retreat of sorts, I saw something new in me, not so much a defined soul, but a broader presence of myself-spirt
Pila Mulligan: I'd say so, in the context of the question
Pila Mulligan: how did it appear to you Steve
Pila Mulligan: what was its appearance that is
stevenaia Michinaga: an eye opening inward
Pila Mulligan: sounds like awakening :)_
stevenaia Michinaga: see more of what was there there... me-ness
stevenaia Michinaga: hence the retractment of my earlier comment
Pila Mulligan: in many religions the soul has to be saved by some virtue to get to heaven
stevenaia Michinaga: of not being awakened
Pila Mulligan: metaphorical or not it is the idea
Pila Mulligan: awakening the spirit is probably part of the effort
Threedee Shepherd: OK, let's be more specific, what does either the soul, or spirituality, have to do with Being?
Pila Mulligan: 3d are you intentionally approaching the Hindu concept of Atman?
Threedee Shepherd: no
Pila Mulligan: it sounds like it :)
Pila Mulligan: Atman is the big Soul of Hinudism
stevenaia Michinaga: asks if Three knows of this concept
Pila Mulligan: it is similar to what can be called Being
Threedee Shepherd: Well there are no "new" ideas, by this late in the human game ;>
Pila Mulligan: and Atman was rejected by Buddhism, as I understand it, as it was too mythical
Dharma Voyager: an idea to describe what exists... did not bring into being what existed
Pila Mulligan: well, the idea of a soul has been seen through many lenses, historically
Pila Mulligan: the big Being idea, or the big Soul of Atman was universal one giant soul for everyone
Pila Mulligan: so spiritual awareness in Hinduism is essentially self-debasing
stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm..Being =Shared Soul
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pila Mulligan: now we have the Judeao-Christian individual soul in the middle of this question
Pila Mulligan: but the sub question reminded me of Atman
Threedee Shepherd: can I be compassionate without bringing spirituality into the equation?
Pila Mulligan: sure -- as in love thy neighbor for its own sake
Pila Mulligan: but is it enough to get to heaven :)
Pila Mulligan: past that pearly fence
stevenaia Michinaga: i have this thought that communication itself as the "stuff" that uses Being/Shared Soul as a medium to transmit thoughts to one another, tries to relate it consciousness
Threedee Shepherd: Pila, why will heaven not get boring?
Pila Mulligan: from all I've heard I think it probably does

Pila Mulligan: that's why i think that after the pearly gate there may be a back door
Corvuscorva Nightfire is Online
Pila Mulligan: for sneaking out
stevenaia Michinaga: and where do you sneak to?
Threedee Shepherd: or perhaps "boring heaven" is really the Hell of it?
Pila Mulligan: oh, Kalamazoo?
Pila Mulligan: yes 3d :)
Adelene Dawner thinks we sneak to here. ^.^
Pila Mulligan: :)
Threedee Shepherd: oooh
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Corvi
Pila Mulligan: hi Corvi
Corvuscorva Nightfire: HI all
Pila Mulligan: topic: "What is spiritual awareness"
Pila Mulligan: and what is it like in heaven as a subpart
Threedee Shepherd: Hi Corvi, I started a discussion on what the word *spiritual* means in the sense of seeking spiritual attainment. I am not yet satisfied.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, listening.
Pila Mulligan: the idea of a soul led to heaven and became boring
stevenaia Michinaga: let;s focus on Spirit, perhaps then, it is within us or outside us,as I sense Being is
Threedee Shepherd: Wait, where do you sense being is, the sentence was a bit ambiguous
Pila Mulligan: can spirit = self?
stevenaia Michinaga: i sense being is external
Corvuscorva Nightfire: really?
stevenaia Michinaga: Spirt is inside
stevenaia Michinaga: well I have to start somewhere
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: is self and environment okay in that sense Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: hello seesha
seesha Jinx: hey everyone
Dharma Voyager: I think I'm way to practical sometime... I'm not completely understanding of what you mean by the soul, but I usually feel that most talk of the soul comes from attachment
Pila Mulligan: hi seesha
Dharma Voyager: hey there :)
Dharma Voyager: do you know what I mean by attachment?
Threedee Shepherd: no
Pila Mulligan: as in earphones attached to a music player
Dharma Voyager: and this may b way off (I'm not quite understanding of all the "being" but I'm guessing)
Dharma Voyager: attachment is believing something because you place an over emphasis on an idea because it either comforts a person or causes fear
Dharma Voyager: that is my warped definition
Corvuscorva Nightfire: well..I've been reading every day for months and I don't get even a little of the "being" so....
Dharma Voyager: I think I'm close though
Dharma Voyager: for example... believing in santa claus because you really want to get presents from a big smily guy...
stevenaia Michinaga: I am IM'g seesha about the group, thx
Dharma Voyager: that is a bad example but close enough
Dharma Voyager: the importance of a santa claus is not important at all
Dharma Voyager: it is really what he brings
Dharma Voyager: smiles
Dharma Voyager: well that's important to me
Dharma Voyager: hehehe
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
Pila Mulligan: grabbing onto something because you like it
Dharma Voyager: or hate it
Pila Mulligan: :)
Dharma Voyager: yes... let's say if Santo claus didn't exist... then my hole house of cards of belief would fall down
Pila Mulligan: being entangled with it :)
Dharma Voyager: when it wouldn't
Dharma Voyager: reindeers exist outside of santa I know this
Dharma Voyager: smiles
Dharma Voyager: kind of like the greek stories
stevenaia Michinaga: I sense a theme in your thinking Dharma, ho ho ho
Dharma Voyager: a large chariot moves the sun across the sky
Dharma Voyager: I'm positive only some believed it
Dharma Voyager: it was a way to describe something
Dharma Voyager: but for some they needed to believe it
Dharma Voyager: because it explained what was important...
Dharma Voyager: when really... the sun will still go across the sky no matter what we believe
Dharma Voyager: it doesn't matter
Pila Mulligan: okay, but suppose there is an essential part of our selves that is non material and survives death?
Pila Mulligan: just for the sake of the question
Dharma Voyager: listens
Pila Mulligan: what should we be doing about it?
Dharma Voyager: you tell me

Dharma Voyager: what is so important about that?
stevenaia Michinaga: like the conservation of energy... souls are neither created nor destroyed
Dharma Voyager: I call that mass
stevenaia Michinaga: wants to know what Einstein would have done with that one
Pila Mulligan: vast masses of religions exist to answer questions like that (what should we do about it)
Dharma Voyager: h would agree
Dharma Voyager: to answer or question?
Pila Mulligan: maybe they are entangled with the question
Dharma Voyager: if w had an answer surely we would believe it?
seesha Jinx: yeah quantum superposition anyone?
Pila Mulligan: please seesha, what is it?
Dharma Voyager: the real question is a good one.. why is important to you?
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods thoughtfully.
stevenaia Michinaga: because we can ask it?
Dharma Voyager: ahhh...
Dharma Voyager: I suppose
Dharma Voyager: but what can we do with it?
Dharma Voyager: of what benefit is the question?

seesha Jinx: oh, maybe its not relevant.. but in regards to 'being'.. the idea that unless there's an observer, matter can exist in several phases at once without choosing a state
Dharma Voyager: I'm really asking
Pila Mulligan: ahh, thanks
Pila Mulligan: an amorphous pre-observed situation?
seesha Jinx: I think I'm off-topic
seesha Jinx: meh
stevenaia Michinaga: asking Three, since he brought it up
Dharma Voyager: you are out of my personal experience :)
Dharma Voyager: I have trouble enough in my own state
Dharma Voyager: hahahahha

Pila Mulligan: it's funny how some people are
Pila Mulligan: uncomfortable talking about karma
Pila Mulligan: because they are afraid they may say the wrong thing
Pila Mulligan: and be punished
Threedee Shepherd: I suggest that we are stuck in the old mind-brain equivalent argument of a "base" corporeal body and a purer spiirit/soul that is needed to over come it.
Pila Mulligan: yes 3D I agree
Pila Mulligan: that is the underlying question
Pila Mulligan: and yet I question absolute science-based answers because I don't think it can be answered by science
Pila Mulligan: just the simple 'is that all there is question' at least
Threedee Shepherd: OK, I am not trying for science. I am only asking something like, if I have a soul, and it suddenly disappeared, what difference would I notice?
Pila Mulligan: you might be in Kalamazoo :)
Pila Mulligan: it sneaked out the back door
Pila Mulligan: maybe it was bored
Pila Mulligan: an escapist or something
Pila Mulligan: and then it show sup in the body of a lion
Threedee Shepherd: Do I notice how my question keeps getting deflected, or am I missing something ^.^
Pila Mulligan: if science cannot answer it how can we?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I don't think this is about science, is it?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I mean..it isn't about "do we have a spirit-compassionate or soul or something and can we prove it..."
Corvuscorva Nightfire: It's about meaning?
Claire Beltran: The concept of a soul as such by itself is a little too concrete for me... it's like saying that it's something we own, or something that exists for one person alone and is isolated from the rest of the world.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh!
Adelene Dawner grins at Claire ^.^
Claire Beltran: Maybe I'm being vague... what exactly bothers you, Three?

Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think you are being incredibly on target, for me. at least.
Threedee Shepherd: Bother is not quite the word, Claire. It is more that I wonder what "spiritual realms" might be? Isn't being moral and decent and compassionate, enough
Dharma Voyager: yes!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: enough for what, though?
Pila Mulligan: if it has meaning, to use Corvi's term, sufficient to embrace the needs for your experience, it should be enough for your peace of mind
Threedee Shepherd: enough for me to worry about when I try to think about how I live in the world.
Claire Beltran: It sounds to me from what you're saying that either you don't think that's enough, or someone else has made you feel that way.
Dharma Voyager: I would be careful when expecting something for your "good" actions
Threedee Shepherd: No, I am questioning all the energy my wife spends on attaining spirituality. She is already a good person.
Dharma Voyager: does it make her happier?
Threedee Shepherd: I am not sure
Pila Mulligan: maybe she is entangled with an idea and trying to obtain a blessing, like Jacob
Adelene Dawner: People chase things, until they see that the chase itself is pointless. Spirituality in its more common forms is such a chase.
Threedee Shepherd: Interesting thought, I will bring that up with her
Adelene Dawner: *such
Dharma Voyager: I think that it is not quite possible to know the intentions of others, only thy can know what truly motivates them
Threedee Shepherd: I agree Dharma
Dharma Voyager: it is important that w are positive and supportive
stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm was typing that too
Pila Mulligan: and they may not even know themselves Dharma
Dharma Voyager: of course
Dharma Voyager: but do you think it is for you to judge?
Adelene Dawner: And sometimes the chase is fun, even if it *is* pointless.
Dharma Voyager: there are worse things to chase after... if it is truly chasing
Dharma Voyager: are you not chasing something... you are here are you not?
Threedee Shepherd: the chase, the Way, IS at the core ^.^
Pila Mulligan: Adelene, I like this old Chinese saying: what the eyes desire the heart runs after
Adelene Dawner nods at Pila...
Dharma Voyager: (glad that was a nod and not a wink)
Dharma Voyager: hehehhehe
Adelene Dawner hmms.. ponders chasing, and why she's here...
Dharma Voyager: is enjoying being here not enough?
Adelene Dawner chuckles.
Dharma Voyager: thinks of why I am here
Claire Beltran: I admit with enormous guilt that I am somewhat of Three's wife's mentality... though in my case that may be my attempt to forcibly hold open the doorway to the extraordinary in my mind and keep other people from closing it.
Threedee Shepherd replies: because she is not somewhere else :>
Adelene Dawner pokes Three.
Dharma Voyager: because Stevie mentioned it to me... and then mentioned that Pila was going to be here too
Dharma Voyager: there w go
Dharma Voyager: hehhehe
stevenaia Michinaga: oops
Claire Beltran: I've heard too much evidence of... certain things and too much sneering on the other end to have *not* invested energy in fighting back that kind of cynicism, which to me is suggestive of fear on the opposite end of the scale.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ook
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah.
Dharma Voyager: that sounds like a judgement but ok
Dharma Voyager: form my end I would say not
Threedee Shepherd: Claire, I am NOT questioning the idea of the aspiration, I am suggesting that the basis of aspiration and improvement does not have to be a feeling of guilt or unworthiness.
Dharma Voyager: but I can only speak to my experience
Dharma Voyager: I'm sure for some that may be true
Claire Beltran: Oh, I channel my guilt and unworthiness in other directions ^-^
Pila Mulligan: [19:16] Pila Mulligan: as a simple answer rife with potentially conflicted meaning, I'd say it is a better appreciation of what is real
Pila Mulligan: spiritual awareness that is
Pila Mulligan: so if we have a sense of a soul or immaterial essence it is real to us
Dharma Voyager: if it is important to you and brings you peace... there should be no guilt in it
Dharma Voyager: I suppose
Dharma Voyager: life's too short
Dharma Voyager: ideas ... impermanent
Dharma Voyager: contrcuts
Dharma Voyager: constructs
Pila Mulligan: contracts too
Dharma Voyager: please explain
Pila Mulligan: don't forget the mundane :)
Dharma Voyager: everything if done form day to day is mundane
Dharma Voyager: the mundane is actually quite wonderous
Dharma Voyager: makes me think that if I'm truly mindful .. nothing can possibly be boring
Dharma Voyager: boring**'
Dharma Voyager: <-- rarely is bored
Pila Mulligan: some people make heaven apart from earth in the hope it will not be boring (the possibility 3D mentioned earlier)
Dharma Voyager: can't remember the last time
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I know that as well, no matter how it may appear to someone else

A visit romps through the fountain...then runs off

Gerard Oxxxx: you guys wanna trash the place?
Pila Mulligan: sure
Dharma Voyager: hahhaa
Threedee Shepherd: washing the rice bowl is as important for enlightenment as hours of sitting...
Dharma Voyager: love that
Dharma Voyager: hahaha
Dharma Voyager: talk about not mundane
Dharma Voyager: sorry I was talking about the visitor we had not the rice bowl
Dharma Voyager: griefers are wonderful teachers

Bell: *ding*

Pila Mulligan: like gnats?
Dharma Voyager: hahaha
Dharma Voyager: some gnats walk on two legs
Dharma Voyager: hahahah
Dharma Voyager: I do
stevenaia Michinaga: profound impact is what they may have
Dharma Voyager: hahaha
Dharma Voyager: what is profound is how we allow ourselves to react
Pila Mulligan: now Claire, without too much apprehension, I have to say I also share your feeling about maybe there is a spirit
Pila Mulligan: but it may have an over-rated significance
stevenaia Michinaga: not to cut things sort but since we have started with the spirit ended on the importance of the mundane, I must call it a night, if someone would forward me the remainder of the log... I would appreciate it
stevenaia Michinaga: *short
Dharma Voyager: I should head out too
Dharma Voyager: thanks for the invite
Corvuscorva Nightfire: see you all.
Pila Mulligan: an ending poem please -- Empty Infinity 
Without beginning, without end,
Without past, without future.
A halo of light surrounds the world of the law.
We forget one another, quiet and pure, altogether powerful and empty.
The emptiness is irradiated by the light of the heart and of heaven.
The water of the sea is smooth and mirrors the moon in its surface.
The clouds disappear in blue space; the mountains shine clear.
Consciousness reverts to contemplation; the moon disk rests alone.

Corvuscorva Nightfire: Enjoy the evening.
Pila Mulligan: bye steve and Dharma
stevenaia Michinaga: thanks.. finally a poem
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: I've always loved that verse
stevenaia Michinaga: brb
Threedee Shepherd smiles
Pila Mulligan: now I need to go find the rice bowl :)
Pila Mulligan: bye bye
Claire Beltran tugs Three's tail. "How feel you, hmm?"
Corvuscorva Nightfire: G'night....enjoy dinner.
Pila Mulligan: thanks

Corvuscorva Nightfire: Did you get the answer you were looking for, Three?
Threedee Shepherd: No, which suggests that perhaps what I asked was not really a question, even though it ended in a question mark ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hahah
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I see.
Adelene Dawner: hm
Adelene Dawner: Often when I ask, why is a person doing a thing, what I really want to know is, would I also want to do that thing?
Threedee Shepherd mumbles something about "mirror neurons"
Adelene Dawner pokes Three. "Or that, which translates roughly to 'why are we doing that?' (and no, that's not a royal we, it's a regular one)
Claire Beltran: What were you looking for, then?
Threedee Shepherd: I am playing with the idea that the mundane IS the spiritual when approached openly and with positive intent. That I don't need to look further than this life to find it.
Adelene Dawner grins toothily at Three.

stevenaia Michinaga: back
stevenaia Michinaga: laundry....
Corvuscorva Nightfire: wb
Claire Beltran: And what's that mean to you?
stevenaia Michinaga: waits for Three's answer before I leave
Threedee Shepherd: hhmmm, pondering
Threedee Shepherd: The Being I experience is enough, and I am Playing in an appropriate arena :)
Adelene Dawner: Well worded, Three. ^.^
stevenaia Michinaga: night then