2008.12.15 07:00 - On Interpretation and Intuition

Becka Finesmith was the Gaurdian on call. The comments are hers.

Fael and I decided independantly to simultaneously occupy the same cushion....

Fael Illyar: Hi Becka :)
Becka Finesmith: Hi Fael - Sorry
Becka Finesmith: lol
Fael Illyar: oh, did you want this one?
Becka Finesmith: We both went for the same cusion
Becka Finesmith: lol
Becka Finesmith: Sorry about that
Fael Illyar: Well, it's not that important... just as long as we both get seats :)
Becka Finesmith: indeed :)
Becka Finesmith: How was your weekend?
Fael Illyar: Overall, good :)
Becka Finesmith: Fantastic
Becka Finesmith: which bit is stopping an completely good verdict?
Fael Illyar: Something bubbling to surface recently, so at times feeling rather uncomfortable :)
Fael Illyar: plus it's starting to affect my sleep somewhat. I didn't wake up but did't feel completely rested after waking up.
Becka Finesmith: Is it something you would like to talk about/
Fael Illyar: That's the thing, I don't know what it is yet :)
Becka Finesmith: Ahh. OK - I hate it when something that you can't quite pin down bothers you :(
Becka Finesmith: I've been there a lot myself lately. Sometimes it just doesn't surface, it just goes away
Fael Illyar: ah, brb
Becka Finesmith: OK :)
Becka Finesmith: WB :)

Realising Christmas is so close.....

Becka Finesmith: DO you celebrate Christmas?
Fael Illyar: Yes, I do.
Becka Finesmith: All planned?
Fael Illyar: yes, plans are set, pretty much.
Fael Illyar: ... that is, as any plans as I'll make
Becka Finesmith: I tend to leave things to the last minute :(
Becka Finesmith: I'm off to do Christmas shopping this weekend - I expect it will be pretty packed at the shopping centre :(
Fael Illyar: Well... what I call a plan is a rough outline :)
Becka Finesmith nods
Fael Illyar: I know the general area of where I'll be and approximately when I'll go :)

We talked about how fast our perceptions of our situation can change....

Becka Finesmith: I've been reflecting today on how quickly things can change
Fael Illyar: Yes, change can happen quite fast.
Fael Illyar: although, we have a tendency to think the changes bigge than they are
Becka Finesmith: Mm. Yes. My thinking today is so different to yesterday but nothing has really changed except my outlook
Fael Illyar: Ah, what changed?
Becka Finesmith: I really don't know. The day before Yesterday so many things looked bleak
Becka Finesmith: Today, it doesn't look so bad.
Becka Finesmith: All the stuff that was depressing me is still there, but somehow, it now doesn't seem as important
Becka Finesmith: I seemed to have reached a point where it doesn't bother me anymore but I can't quite say why
Fael Illyar: You're starting to realize that that stuff isn't so important afterall.
Fael Illyar: Hi Gen :)
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Fael and Becka!
Fael Illyar: We were just speaking with Becka about how fast things can (seem to) change.
Fael Illyar: How are you Gen?
genesis Zhangsun: good
genesis Zhangsun: just woke up not too long ago
genesis Zhangsun: hows it with you?
genesis Zhangsun: Fael, Becka?
Becka Finesmith: Hi Gen
Becka Finesmith: Sorry - was afk for the moment - Phone call
Fael Illyar: I'm good, overall. Just something bubbling up again so a bit uncomfortable at times.
genesis Zhangsun: what sort of bubbling up?
genesis Zhangsun: Fael?
Fael Illyar: The thing is, I'm not sure exactly.
genesis Zhangsun: is it like something you have experienced before?
Fael Illyar: It's got to do with accepting breakup with Gaya but ... exactly what is the root that's bubbling up. I can't say yet.
genesis Zhangsun: well it is likely that there are a lot of emotions around this that need processing
Fael Illyar: Hi Crusty :)
genesis Zhangsun: hey Crusty :)
genesis Zhangsun: I don't see crusty anymore do u Fael
Fael Illyar: I don't see Crusty either but my scanner says 0 meters
Fael Illyar: Hi Adele :)
PaB Listener Master: Removing "Crusty Goldshark" from list.
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Ade
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Adelene Dawner: 'sup?
Fael Illyar: Hi Gaya :)
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Fael Illyar: wb Crusty :)
Crusty Goldshark: thank you :) hi guys
Becka Finesmith: hrllo Crusty
Gaya Ethaniel: Hey Crusty ^^
Crusty Goldshark: hi Becka
Fael Illyar ruffles adele's fur.
Crusty Goldshark: are we discussing the difference between madness and enlightenment again?
Adelene Dawner: ...there is one? ^.^
Fael Illyar: perhaps not?
Adelene Dawner: Depends on how you define 'madness' - and given that thegeneral definition is 'different from what's normal', no, probbaly not ^.^
Fael Illyar: Yes, although, everyone would be mad with that definition :)
Adelene Dawner: indeed ^.^
Crusty Goldshark: Perhaps it is is to do with with beneficial and not beneficial mind states?
Fael Illyar: yes, then we can argue about what is beneficial and what not :)
Crusty Goldshark: Madness is a dis - ease and enlightenment is an Ease . . .?
Adelene Dawner chuckles.
Crusty Goldshark: Well most madness is not benefiscial to the person concerned or those around - or is it?
genesis Zhangsun: madness is very subjectively defined isn't it
Adelene Dawner: *very*.
genesis Zhangsun: the Catholic Church saw Galileo as "mad" what until very recently
Fael Illyar: do you meanthe official stance?
genesis Zhangsun: yes official stance
Crusty Goldshark: Well dissidents under Russian regimes were not crazy - or were they - how about Nazis - they were comfortable with what they did . . .
Fael Illyar: Well, yes, some people's definition of mad seems to be someone who does something they don't agree with or understand.
Fael Illyar: ah, mad by propaganda :)
genesis Zhangsun: I would say usually it is that way Fael
Crusty Goldshark: These are societal definitions - let us look at the personal definition - is being asleep when it is possible to be awake - a aform of pre-Buddha madness?
genesis Zhangsun: but of course there are cases I would say like the Holocaust that go so fundamentally against what globally people would see as enlightened that there is a consensus that it was madness
Crusty Goldshark: Or is the Buddha like most loons - trying to get us to join his mode of crazy thinking?
genesis Zhangsun: what do u think Crusty?
Crusty Goldshark: Well regarding the holocaust - If the Nazi had won we would have a different way of thinking about our 'Glorious World Fatherland' or whatever would have emerged . . .
Fael Illyar: at least for a while.
Fael Illyar: no telling what the world would look right at the moment.
Crusty Goldshark: So it would be globally recognized that CHurchill was a depressive (he was) and an alcoholic (he was) etc . . .
genesis Zhangsun: well hard to speculate Crusty on what would have been :)
Crusty Goldshark: As for the cult of Buddhahood - m m m the Sufis have an idea of the enlightened as being outside of their culture and time - in this sense timeless and independent of thought . . .
Crusty Goldshark: So I would suggest we look to the results of bankers (clearly mad) and Buddhas (seem to do some good) and try to make an informed opinion . . .
genesis Zhangsun: does any have anything they would like to discuss?
Fael Illyar wraps her arms around Adele's ruff and hugs Adele.
Adelene Dawner needed that ^.^
Fael Illyar smiles.
Becka Finesmith: Sorry - Back now :( Work phone call :(
Becka Finesmith: What did I miss?
Gaya Ethaniel: wb ^^
Becka Finesmith: THanks Gaya
genesis Zhangsun: we seemed to have hit a silence is there anything you would like to talk about Becka
genesis Zhangsun: (silence is ok too :)
Becka Finesmith: We were talking about how fast some things can change in your head before I left
Becka Finesmith: without anything actually changing in reality
Becka Finesmith: Lagged for a minute
Crusty Goldshark: m m m so perception can be altered but reality is sttic?
Becka Finesmith: exactly
Crusty Goldshark: statiic
Becka Finesmith: Nothing physically changed from yesterday to today but I feel so different about things
Crusty Goldshark: I never thought of reality as static - mind - that is just a bunch of wild monkeys . . .
Becka Finesmith: in what way Crusty?
Crusty Goldshark: But that is perception effected by mood and emotions . . .?
Becka Finesmith: precisely.
Adelene Dawner: reality isn't static... sometimes our perceptions change faster than it does, sometimes they change slower...
Crusty Goldshark: Reality seems to do things such as constatly flow, maybe even come in and out of being - I doubt it is one fatlistic whole . . .
Fael Illyar: perhaps interpretation would be better word for what changes slower or faster?
Adelene Dawner nods at Fa.
Crusty Goldshark: Well I feel interpretation of reality is doomed to failure. Awareness of our being is as much as we can probably achieve . . .
Adelene Dawner: ^^
Becka Finesmith: But we have to interpret reality in our day to day lives.
Crusty Goldshark: Do we? Why is that?
Becka Finesmith: Because sitting on a cushion all day doesn't pay the bills
Becka Finesmith: as much as I would like to do that
Crusty Goldshark: LOL - You can staill be aware of awareness and in a state of perception and at work or rest :) No?
Becka Finesmith: there has to be a balance otherwise we would not respect, love, play,
Becka Finesmith: of course, but I also have to live in this world
Crusty Goldshark: Yes - but why do you have to interpret what you percieve?
Becka Finesmith: that makes no sense to me - Can you explain?
Crusty Goldshark: When you catch a ball the hand goes out and it is caught. The best catch is instinctive - the best thinking catches the moment . . .
Becka Finesmith: So you are saying on everything we should act on impulse?
Fael Illyar: isn't it interpretation that happens that allows your hand to move to the ball?
Fael Illyar: to catch it
Becka Finesmith: my feelings too Fael
Adelene Dawner: Not really, Fa.
Adelene Dawner: I read about that particular thing a while ago...
Crusty Goldshark: If you interpreted - you would fumble the bal - when catching - just catch when living just be )read that on A Zen Matchbox)
Becka Finesmith: but you make a judgment about the balls position and you go to the point your brain suggests it will fall.
genesis Zhangsun: yeah I would agree here with Crusty and adelene but understand the frustration you express

Becka...most of us are not in complete awareness all the time the best we can do often is to go in and out of this state
Adelene Dawner: humans have a specific instinct to move in a certain way when trying to catch something... it's not at all like trying to figure out where it will be, it's about positioning yourself in a certain way compared to where it is.
genesis Zhangsun: I think your interp of interpretation is much broader than mine or Ade
genesis Zhangsun: * to Fael :)
Becka Finesmith: Your mind interprets the situation just faster then you can percieve it that's all
Becka Finesmith: The ball doesn't do the thinking for you
genesis Zhangsun: no but I think we need to go back and unpack what I believe interpretation is
Fael Illyar: perhaps it's useful to make the distinction between these two interpretation types?
genesis Zhangsun: I differentiate interp from instinct
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Crusty Goldshark: In a sense the ball dictates the thinking - if you want to catch it. When a lot happens you react and respond - nothing much going on - you reflect and the thinking process gets in the way of living in the moment . . .
genesis Zhangsun: read my mind Fael
Becka Finesmith: All the ball does is moves in a parabola. YOur mind interprets the ball not theother way around
Becka Finesmith: through it's sense of the world
Becka Finesmith: But I think you are right to seperate instict and interpretation
Becka Finesmith: Instinct
Crusty Goldshark: m m m . . . what I am getting at is interpretation is a form of mind chatter - intuitive and spontaneous thought and action - has a fluidity and naturalness about it . . .
genesis Zhangsun: yes I would agree with that Crusty
Becka Finesmith: Yes. I agree.
Becka Finesmith: But it can be useful mind chatter
Fael Illyar: interpreting by thinking has loads of unneeded baggage tagging along.
Becka Finesmith: it does not help to live day to day if you just use intuition
Crusty Goldshark: Well we can live more from this natural state but if we reflect - does this feel good or bad, shall I catch or not catch the ball etc we lose ouself to our own mind chatter . . .
Adelene Dawner: What makes you say that, Becka?
Becka Finesmith: About intuition Adelene?
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
genesis Zhangsun: Becka I agree with you but the point of stopping and tapping into a more natural intuitive way of being doesn't mean to stop all of the chit chatter
genesis Zhangsun: that is futile it will keep going
genesis Zhangsun: but the point is to wear it lightly
genesis Zhangsun: recognize the useful bits but not make them into assumptions about what is
Becka Finesmith: Because Intuition is not completely compatible with the real world.
Crusty Goldshark: wear it lightly - yes :)
genesis Zhangsun: does that make sense?
Adelene Dawner: You've said that you think it's not compatable - why do ou think it's not?
genesis Zhangsun: yes Becka but often our interpretations are not compatible with reality
Fael Illyar: Becka, how do you know?
Becka Finesmith: Well, asking that question is proof?
Gaya Ethaniel nods... common sense is also good as well as intuition...
genesis Zhangsun: we have so many wrong interp of the world that hold us back from really enjoying it, seeing it for what it really is
Crusty Goldshark: How many monkeys does it take to turn our minds?
Becka Finesmith: My intuition tells me I am real, I live in a world full of things I sense. But this is not true
Becka Finesmith: So I cannot trust intuition
Fael Illyar: you sure it's your intuition?
Becka Finesmith: because it is built from all the things I sens
Becka Finesmith: what else could it be?
Adelene Dawner: Have you tried trusting it?
Crusty Goldshark: sounds interpretative to me?
Becka Finesmith: many times. Sometimes the outcome is favorable, Other times it's a complete failure
Crusty Goldshark: My intuition doesn't tell me anything - that is why I trust it . . .
Fael Illyar: Perhaps you are being overly hasty making the interpretation that it was a complete failure?
genesis Zhangsun: Ah perhaps we have another word to throw into the mix here
Becka Finesmith: Ok - Perhaps I need to think about this a bit more deeply ... Oh no... Wait ;P
genesis Zhangsun: perhaps what you are talking about Becka is pure reaction
genesis Zhangsun: just reacting and intution are different for me
Becka Finesmith: possibly. But how do you draw the distinction?
genesis Zhangsun: though I do sympathize that this all very subtle :)
Crusty Goldshark: Have to go guys - great chat
Becka Finesmith nods
Crusty Goldshark: be kind to the fish
genesis Zhangsun: bye Crusty
Gaya Ethaniel: See you later Crusty ^^
Becka Finesmith: Se ya Crusty - Thanks
Crusty Goldshark: :)
genesis Zhangsun: well Becka it is so hard for me to say but I can try :)
Fael Illyar: intuition sometimes has had me do things that don't seem to be in any way related to anything around me at the moment that I can consciously perceive.
Fael Illyar: See you later Crusty :)
genesis Zhangsun: reaction is about action
genesis Zhangsun: intuition for me is something that feels beyond action
Becka Finesmith: that's a good way to summarise it
genesis Zhangsun: there is little choice but for me to follow it and as I do I don't even notice that I am following it
Becka Finesmith: I see it clearly now
Gaya Ethaniel: Good day to you all ^^
genesis Zhangsun: it was all I could do
genesis Zhangsun: bye Gaya
Becka Finesmith: Bye Gaya
genesis Zhangsun: I should go too :)
genesis Zhangsun: hope that was helpful :)
Becka Finesmith: OK - Thanksfor the chat - It was really interesting
Fael Illyar: See you later Gen :)
genesis Zhangsun: bye Fael!
Becka Finesmith: different points of view :)
genesis Zhangsun: Bye Ade and Becka!
Becka Finesmith: Bye Gen
Becka Finesmith: I guess I really should be getting on to
Becka Finesmith: Do you mind If i leave mow?
Becka Finesmith: now?
Adelene Dawner: See you around, Becka
Fael Illyar: Sure, see you later Becka :)
Becka Finesmith: OK - Thank you for the chat :)