2008.12.30 01:00 - No

I, Pema, was the guardian that night. I would be a quiet session, with only Crusty joining me. He started out asking about my SL group's title "rubyist"

Pema Pera: Hi there, Crusty!
Pema Pera: Good seeing you again
Crusty Goldshark: hi - you too - what is a rubyist?
Pema Pera: Somebody writing computer programs in Ruby
Pema Pera: yet another group in SL . . .
Crusty Goldshark: Ah yes looked at Ruby briefly
Pema Pera: Ruby is a scripting language like Python, but more clean and clear, at least in my judgment
Pema Pera: nice combination of Lispy and more normal elements
Crusty Goldshark: yes it is - but I prefer python - not that I have done much
Pema Pera: Hi Anonymous!
Crusty Goldshark: hi Anonymous
Anonymous: hello there
Anonymous: hmm... whats going on here?
Pema Pera: We get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/ -- we record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?
Anonymous: oh i see... hmm... let me see... maybe i will try to relax first....
Crusty Goldshark: were you looking for the orgy?
Anonymous: nah
Anonymous: i was just exploring
Crusty Goldshark: OK - let me know if you find it . . .
Anonymous: find wat?
Crusty Goldshark: the nature of reality
Crusty Goldshark: the orgy
Anonymous: oh ok...
Anonymous: the orgy or the nature of reality
Anonymous: do they mean the same?
Crusty Goldshark: :)
Crusty Goldshark: sometimes life is an orgy . . .
Pema Pera: (Crusty has his own views of the nature of reality, it seems, Anonymous . . . .)
Crusty Goldshark: ;)
Pema Pera: (most of us in Play as Being are a lot more tame than he :-)

To put it mildly.

Crusty Goldshark: true
Crusty Goldshark: I be good
Crusty Goldshark: take a seat
Crusty Goldshark: click on a cushion and sit here
Crusty Goldshark: right click
Crusty Goldshark: soon I will be enlightened . . .
Crusty Goldshark: but not too soon . . .
Anonymous: soon i will be in dark if i continue to stay here... so adios guys...
Crusty Goldshark: LOL
Crusty Goldshark: Yesterday PaB was having probs - are these sorted?
Pema Pera: probs?
Pema Pera: which problems?
Crusty Goldshark: yes we could not get here and ended up in kiras cafe
Pema Pera: ah! Yes, SL has been unstable today (my today, your yesterday)
Crusty Goldshark: so they need ever more servers
Crusty Goldshark: just been using google earth - that is a fun program
Pema Pera: and more software writers . . .
Pema Pera: yes indeed!
Pema Pera: But Google's VW is closing down -- Lively was everything but
Crusty Goldshark: I am not really keen on using MONO
Crusty Goldshark: Googles VW?
Pema Pera: virtual world, called Lively
Crusty Goldshark: Never even heard of it . . .
Pema Pera: http://livelyzens.com/
Crusty Goldshark: There is a virtual London (already is a virtual Berlin) starting next year but SL is fine for now
Pema Pera: you mean virtual as stand-alone?
Crusty Goldshark: The Virtual Berlin is an exact copy (they intend to have all the shops) - same with London
Pema Pera: ah, more like Google Earth then?
Crusty Goldshark: Yes quite probably . . . have not used it - was going to wait for the London one
Pema Pera: will be very interesting to see how VW and RW will blend . . . .
Pema Pera: like the question whether robots will take over our life --- more likely humans and robots will blend to some extent
Pema Pera: starting with glasses a few hundred years ago, now cell phones
Pema Pera: and so on
Crusty Goldshark: I think you are right - was just reading about the importance of emotions in consciousness and AI has barely touched this area
Crusty Goldshark: AI will make us smarter and we will retain the ability to be consciouss
Pema Pera: oh yes, very important -- and some research is being done fortunately on emotions (in response to your earlier line)
Pema Pera: as for us getting smarter: with wikipedia and google at hand, in some sense we are smarter than anyone who has ever lived before . . . but in some sense of course it can be seen as become less smart and more dependent . . . .

Crusty brought up orgies again, for reasons equally unclear as before, to me at least.

Crusty Goldshark: Smarter and also potentially more aggressive and destructive - we need more orgies, sport and Tantra (not necessarily in that order)
Pema Pera: ?
Pema Pera is wondering about Crusty's views on Tantra . . . .
Crusty Goldshark: What worries me is how people react to poverty - I am comfortable with it (being relatively poor)
Crusty Goldshark: Well Tantra is much like Virtuality without the external hardware
Pema Pera: What kind of Tantra are you refering to?
Crusty Goldshark: Wot ya got?
Crusty Goldshark: Probably Buddhist as I am most familiar with that
Pema Pera: what kind of Buddhist tantra? There are so many varieties, and currently so many different ways of (partial) understanding and misunderstanding in the western world . . .
Crusty Goldshark: Well I lean towards Dzogchen and Mahamudra but have experience of Kagyu faith based tantra
Pema Pera: may I ask which groups and/or teachers you have practiced with?
Crusty Goldshark: No
Pema Pera: :-)
Crusty Goldshark: LOL
Crusty Goldshark: I tend to adapt teachings and would not want o encourage teachers and lamas who would do well elsewhere
Crusty Goldshark: On the whole when I have been with Lamas on teachings I leave, because they talk about what they do not know and therefore it is just 'thus have I heard' - I then try and find someone who is in the condition of ' this I know'
Pema Pera: When you say "Lamas" do you mean Tibetans or western ones?
Crusty Goldshark: It makes little difference, when people have genuine insight, their path becomes independent of titles and the need for ritual
Pema Pera: "when", yes . . . only "when"
Crusty Goldshark: If they happen to be a lama then they continue in the role - the trouble is most disciples because of the nature of Tantra make very little effort to discriminate and so some real rogues are thought of as great Gurus
Crusty Goldshark: However . . . we can be genuine and that is of far greater import

I asked about the notion of genuine.

Pema Pera: how can we be genuine?
Crusty Goldshark: 1. Not pretending or implying we are enlightened
Crusty Goldshark: 2. Folowing morality and the 8 fold or other path
Crusty Goldshark: Becoming a real person of honesty and integrity
Crusty Goldshark: Not a sham game - you guru - me seeker - let's sleep on . . .
Crusty Goldshark: How would you answeryour question?
Pema Pera: stop - drop - see - check with friends what I see - continue
Crusty Goldshark: What do you see as genuine?
Pema Pera: stop - drop - see - check with friends what I see - continue
Pema Pera: that seems the best approach to be genuine, as far as I can see
Pema Pera: but that is just my approach
Pema Pera: I respect other approaches too, including teacher-student relationships
Pema Pera: but I myself prefer to work with peers, not in student-teacher relationships
Crusty Goldshark: Yes - well the peer to peer network is more effective to the Western mindset
Crusty Goldshark: What do you drop? What do you pickup?
Pema Pera: to be genuine is not a question of knowing, but of direct seeing
Pema Pera: in order to see you have to drop what is in the way
Pema Pera: in order to drop you first have to stop
Pema Pera: whatever frantic game you have been caught up in
Crusty Goldshark: what is the difference to knowing and seeing?
Pema Pera: it depends of course on how you use the words; they could be defined differently. The way I used them here is:
Pema Pera: knowing refers to figuring out, understanding by reasoning
Pema Pera: seeing is much more direct
Pema Pera: like biting into an apple instead of talking about it
Pema Pera: "seeing" is metaphorical of course
Crusty Goldshark: Ah OK - I was thinking of them both as perceptions Knowing in the sense of Seeing
Pema Pera: that's fine too!
Pema Pera: we can choose different words for the same thing
Crusty Goldshark: Knowing in the sense you mean it is one of the Buddhist approaches - keep working on the reasoning - I tend to have little time for this approach - it is just the accumaltion of facts, without any direct experience BUT it may give a context if the experience arises :)
Crusty Goldshark: A lot of people seem to have arisings that have a spiritual component . .
Pema Pera: yes, and it may help trigger real seeing
Pema Pera: (<- previous sentence)
Crusty Goldshark: but they have no shell to place it in - their path may offer them this contextual shell - hence the use of dhama, Lamas and other dogmas
Pema Pera: I would not throw away forms of practice in which teachers are involved. There are teachers and students of many types, some of whom really are genuine, and many of who are really dedicated and well intended. It is just my personal preference to work with a group of peers instead
Crusty Goldshark: Understood - the problem is when direction is coming in a form that may be detrimental. The important thing is that people are always in contact with the genuine stream of teaching because they have access to the genuine in themself at all times . . .
Pema Pera: well, in principle they do, but in practice it is very easy to get confused -- for individuals, for teachers, for students, for peers too . . . to try to maintain true quality is quite a challenge
Crusty Goldshark: :)
Crusty Goldshark: Time for me to go and be kind to some fish - liberate them from a tin . . .
Crusty Goldshark: Thanks for chat - have a great day ;)
Pema Pera: Nice talking with you, Crusty
Pema Pera: you too!
Crusty Goldshark: :)
Crusty Goldshark: . . . watch out for the lamas . . .
Crusty Goldshark: :)
Pema Pera: will do -- will say hello when I see some
Crusty Goldshark: ;)