2009.11.08 08:00 - Framings for the 90 Seconds

During our weekly guardian meeting, the following 11 guardians were present: Adams Dubrovna, Doug Sosa, Eos Amaterasu, Genesis Zhangsun, Pema Pera, Qt Core, Riddle Sideways, Sophia Placebo, SophiaSharon Larnia, Storm Nordwind, Yakuzza Lethecus.  The comments are by Pema Pera.

Adams Dubrovna: My hud only picks up people in the sim I am sitting in this hall. I find tht interesting
Pema Pera: sitting down across regions is difficult too
Pema Pera: seems like you have to walk over first
doug Sosa: a little like entering the9 sec.
doug Sosa: You have to be there.
Adams Dubrovna: :)
genesis Zhangsun: Hi sophia, yaku and riddle
Pema Pera: Eos and I are still in Princeton, after our two-day retreat
Pema Pera: everyone else has returned by now
Adams Dubrovna: I feel like I am still there :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Riddle Sideways: Still retreating ? :0
Pema Pera: we have a marvellous time
Pema Pera: had and have :)
Pema Pera: (typos again!)
doug Sosa: I'd love to be around the institute for a few weeks. See what people are thinkingabout.
Pema Pera: the weather and time of year couldn't have been better, at the height of fall
Adams Dubrovna: The weather was perfect
Pema Pera: so we did some of our explorations sitting in the room where we were, and some walking outside
Eos Amaterasu: Photo at http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Retreats/2009-11_Princeton%2c_NJ
Adams Dubrovna is much inpressed with Pema's control of the weather
Adams Dubrovna: :)
Pema Pera is impressed with the friendly nature of the weather accomodating so well

Pema Pera: yesterday we did the "watching thoughts arising and disappearing" and "You Seeing Being Seeing"
Adams Dubrovna: It was rhe first Saturday in many weeks it did not rain in NJ
doug Sosa: Those are good.
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi SS :)
Pema Pera: The last one, YSBS, we did for two minutes, one minute for each half -- it was surprising to see how rich everyone's experience was, even in a minute at a time -- all other practices we did for at least ten minutes
Riddle Sideways wonders if Being is easier to see during rain?
SophiaSharon Larnia: good morning everyone :)
genesis Zhangsun: hi sophiasharon!
Adams Dubrovna: Hello Sharon :)
Pema Pera: Hi Sharon, good seeing you again!
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes :)
sophia Placebo: Goodmorning SophiaS
Pema Pera: did you have a good drive back from Princeton, yesterday evening?
SophiaSharon Larnia: oh yes! it was so smooth, I was home before I knew it
Adams Dubrovna: Hello Storm :)
doug Sosa: seeig it rain iseasier but it is also good to see that, at times, it is not raining. Seeing the "not X" is also important.
Pema Pera: hi Storm!
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Sharon, Sophia, Riddle, Storm
Storm Nordwind whispers "hi!"
genesis Zhangsun: hi storm
sophia Placebo: hi storm
Eos Amaterasu popped his hello stack
doug Sosa: we need a new way t arive and greet arivals :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe
doug Sosa: to arrive and greet arrivals..

Eos Amaterasu: At RL retreat we talked about putting up a page with short "framings" for the 90 secs in sessions...
Riddle Sideways: yes, an interesting topic... How should guardians and chatlog editors deal with the hello stack ?
Storm Nordwind greys them out if it's during a theme session
SophiaSharon Larnia: sometimes left out and stated as such
sophia Placebo: dose the huds hellos recorded ?
sophia Placebo: like :
sophia Placebo: Hello doug
Pema Pera: I don't know, Sophia
Storm Nordwind: HUDs don't have listeners
sophia Placebo: it would be easy that way cuz we wouldnt have to grey anything if we used such a thing
Eos Amaterasu: Greying out may be good idea for regular logs too: lets the eye skip to the more meaty stuff, while leaving hello and their contexts
Adams Dubrovna: One caan always edit them out of the log
doug Sosa: The problem is not so much inthe transcriptas inthe actual moment. can we not assue good will an d simply enter and leave when necessary? It always reminds me of a gilbert and sullivan operetta.
SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
Eos Amaterasu: mabye bow in, bow out?
SophiaSharon Larnia: its nice for someone new to get a warm hello
Eos Amaterasu: yes
Storm Nordwind is reminded of working in France where everyone shakes hands or kisses as someone new comes into the office first thing. They always do this even if they've known each other for 20 years. I think maybe it's natural!
Adams Dubrovna: For large sessions, the GOC could ask someone to be the designated greeter
Eos Amaterasu: kisser
Pema Pera: :)
doug Sosa: at the zen retreat here in sl one just comes inand sits. i think it is actually friendlier tofeel one is joining what is ongoingthan stopping the conversation
SophiaSharon Larnia: its disconcerting to sit in a group of new people and they just keep talking and ignore you, even if there is good will among the particiapnts
Storm Nordwind: quite so
Eos Amaterasu: HI QT, we all say hello!
sophia Placebo: so to greet Qt or not to greet ?
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Qt Core: :) hi all
SophiaSharon Larnia: :) hi
Pema Pera: you're the guinea pig, Qt
Qt Core: ehm... should i worry ?
SophiaSharon Larnia: ahh good example Eos
Pema Pera: no Qt :) we were talking about whether or not to have everybody greet everyone entering each time :)
Pema Pera: [8:26] sophia Placebo: so to greet Qt or not to greet ?
Storm Nordwind: I can install a greeter that does not have a listener - if people really think it's important!
Qt Core: ok
Pema Pera: "the PaB robot greets you cordially, and is very pleased and honored by your unexpected presence"
Storm Nordwind: ugh!
Qt Core: so we are thinking about stopping studying combinatorial greeting math ?
Eos Amaterasu: A stewardess
doug Sosa: what if a person arriving receives a a card, "welcome, please joi in the conversation.."
Adams Dubrovna: Being done by an avatar is warmer
Eos Amaterasu: Butler of the conversation
sophia Placebo: i'll try doug method for a test , though i was intersted to hear what eos has about short framings !
Pema Pera: personally I don't mind, it's only a few short lines; if the conversation is engaged, it will continue anyway; if it is not, greetings give a natural chance to switch topics
Storm Nordwind: A little cute robot, modeled on panda-san, that runs up to people and says "hi!" >;^>
SophiaSharon Larnia: grins
Pema Pera: :)

Pema Pera: yes, Eos, can you say more about the frames?
Eos Amaterasu: Idea is to collect on one page the APA, "watch thoughts arise, vanish" type phraes, pershaps with short commentaries
Qt Core: i liked the greying out of greeting lines in a log i've read some days ago (don't remember the author)
Eos Amaterasu: so that during a session a guardian can reach into the page and pull out a framing for the 90 secs
Eos Amaterasu: if one doesn't come up from the group
Storm Nordwind whispers to Qt "It may have been my theme session on Advaita Vedanta"
doug Sosa: The problem of the frames is, they are a crutch and provide yet more vocabulary, ratherthan taking the risk of looking at, experiencing, experience without frames, without cocepts, without worn out vocabulary.
doug Sosa: concepts...
Eos Amaterasu: Agreed that frames are crutches, but I've found that they do help, and actually open up the space
Adams Dubrovna: Eos is talking about exercises for the 90m second stops
Adams Dubrovna: There is a time issue
Adams Dubrovna: From my unerstanding they would be a bit like exercises
Adams Dubrovna: It is what you always talk about Doug
doug Sosa: In recent sessions, s kind of random sample, I've been struck by the tendency to go around and around with things like "what is freedom?" "Freedom is.." rather than talking about experience, about the experiments of facing a world more mindfully naked.
genesis Zhangsun: (ducking out early today)
Storm Nordwind waves
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye genesis
Adams Dubrovna: bye Gen
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye gen
Riddle Sideways: we all wave bye
SophiaSharon Larnia: (if we're talking about hellos, how about goodbyes) :))
Riddle Sideways: to gen, but don't for pema
Eos Amaterasu: (a group wave animation :-)
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Riddle Sideways: pema is just testing us, to see if we hello/bye
Adams Dubrovna: :)
Pema Pera: hehehe
Adams Dubrovna: There are wbs
doug Sosa: "all have their entrances and exits.."
Qt Core: maybe it was already said but i lost it as i'm having some pb with the new graphic drivers, but just don't greet between guardians and only greet newcomers ?
Qt Core: or maybe the entering guardian greet (even to mark the start of his/her presence and the others dont

Eos Amaterasu: doesn't seem to be a consensus, AFAICT
Adams Dubrovna: We tried Eos' suggestion in the 7 am session this morning btw
Eos Amaterasu: (regarding framing the 90 secs experience)
Qt Core: (and Eos suggestion was ? :) )
Adams Dubrovna: That we suggest something for us all to contemplate during the 9i0 seconds
Adams Dubrovna: and then talk about it
Riddle Sideways: did you put the framing up before or at the 90-sec marking
Adams Dubrovna: This morning watching out thoughts
Eos Amaterasu: just before, at the 14-minute point
Storm Nordwind: Needs someone quite sharp to see the coming 90 seconds well enough in advance and get suggestions
Adams Dubrovna was very sharp (giggles)
Riddle Sideways: at 7am I am not that sharp
Qt Core: couldn't be automatized with a "database" and being selected by the bell script ?
Eos Amaterasu: Sometimes a phrase emerges from the discussion
Eos Amaterasu: suggestion is to have a page to dip into when at a loss for topic, optionally
Adams Dubrovna: Also, it is not always appropriate
Adams Dubrovna nods to Eos
Qt Core: then a hidden button in the pavillion to activate/deactivate it (i can propose those as i'm not making it ;-) )
Riddle Sideways: I would not want it automagic either, but I remember how appropriate Faenik was sometimes
doug Sosa: the idea of "topic" seems counter to the PaB approach, which is to not look to topics but to look at experience..
Storm Nordwind: Easy enough to do. If people want it just send me their lists of topics. It could be activated only when necessary/wanted
Eos Amaterasu: doug, it's like telling a long jumper to take off at 10.8 inches rather than 10.9....
doug Sosa: I worry that our environments are becomming too complicated already.
Eos Amaterasu: not theory, but what to attend to: it's corny, for sure, but often helps
doug Sosa: Eos, I can't get the example. A jumper is in a task. we wnat people to take the risk ofbeing free of a task, just enter in, observe and then talk about what hapened. If someone coming out of the 9 or 9o sec says "I experienced empty mind" I don't believe them. that is like putting apostage stamp on what happened, not describing it. We want the letter, not the stamp.
Eos Amaterasu: I'm thinking of the kinds of little phrases we used in RL retreat in Califoria (& Princeton)
Storm Nordwind does not think the meditation police will be coming round to PaB sessions to check whether experiences and accounts of experience are authentic! ;)
Adams Dubrovna: :)
Riddle Sideways: ok, that s an image that is hard to get out of head
Storm Nordwind chuckles

Pema Pera: If I may switch the topic, given that we don't seem to converge: another topic we talked about during the Princeton retreat was "unconditional confidence", a kind of confidence not based on any particular ground -- the conversation had started with the experience of a kind of groundlessness which we may encounter in our practice
Pema Pera: and we also talked about the need to ground ourselves in the relative world, in daily life
Pema Pera: and the tension between the two, groundedness and ungroundedness, simultaneously
Storm Nordwind: I love the phrase "unconditional confidence", which very well describes many of my experiences. But I need to check whether you're instead talking of confidentiality
Pema Pera: confidence as in having confidence in one actions and approach
Storm Nordwind: thanks
Pema Pera: by fully going into what appears
Pema Pera: rather than relying on concepts and constructions
Riddle Sideways: and the confidence of the lack there of :)
Storm Nordwind: I recognize the experience of decide to "become" and thereafter it just "is" (and perhaps always "was is"). What came out of your discussions Pema?
Pema Pera: No specific outcome, but we shared our experiences and our struggles with how to integrate those insights into daily life
Pema Pera: it is interesting how such kind of confidence can be presented as a kind of "blind belief" which is some ways is the opposite
Storm Nordwind: I completely agree! And integration is a goldmine of insight for possibly future discussion!
SophiaSharon Larnia: it really is
Pema Pera: and yes, the hour has passed :)
Pema Pera: time for brunch in RL for Eos and me
Eos Amaterasu: We all say bye to each other :-)
Riddle Sideways: please bring this up again adn often
Storm Nordwind throws a cushion at Eos
SophiaSharon Larnia waves
Pema Pera waves too
Adams Dubrovna: Have a good trip back Eos :)
Storm Nordwind waves
doug Sosa: .:)