2009.11.08 13:00 - Secular Religion

The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine. The comments are by sophia Placebo.

Fox Monacular: Hey Yakuzza
Yakuzza Lethecus: hiya fox
Yakuzza Lethecus: weekend is nearly over :(
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello naminosak
Yakuzza Lethecus: i
Fox Monacular: what a spectacular entry
nordin Naminosaki: i know
nordin Naminosaki: im here to bite you two
Yakuzza Lethecus: old profile, no info´s :)
Fox Monacular: have a seat, please:)
Yakuzza Lethecus: how are you nordin ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: except from the apetit on avatar´s
nordin Naminosaki: i dont have a nice
Fox Monacular: you look hungry
Fox Monacular: Hi Pila
nordin Naminosaki: place too chill
Pila Mulligan: greetings
Fox Monacular: Hi Zen
Zen Arado: Hi all
Bolonath Crystal: namaste :)
Fox Monacular: Hi Bolonath
nordin Naminosaki: its getting better i want too bite you all
Zen Arado: Hi Bolonath
Fox Monacular: have you been here before, nordin?
nordin Naminosaki: first
nordin Naminosaki: you
Fox Monacular: we record our conversations and then post them on the wiki page, is it ok with you?
nordin Naminosaki: or you
nordin Naminosaki: what
Fox Monacular: :))
Zen Arado: is there a fly in here?
nordin Naminosaki: i need blood
Pila Mulligan: you may have a mistaken idea of what this place is nordin
Zen Arado: not a bllod bank :)
nordin Naminosaki: no im not
Pila Mulligan: we sit around a chat, politely
Pila Mulligan: we are not vampires
Yakuzza Lethecus: thats why he gonna feed on us *giggles*
Fox Monacular: I just gave him a notecard
Yakuzza Lethecus: vampires don´t bite others :)
nordin Naminosaki: tell me what they do
Yakuzza Lethecus: hiding quiet in the darkness i would suppose
nordin Naminosaki: textoff
nordin Naminosaki: yakuzza you are first
Zen Arado: should be in a coffin during daylight?
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey wol :)
Bolonath Crystal: hi wol
Zen Arado: Hi Wol
Fox Monacular: Hi Wol
Wol Euler: hello zen, bolo, yaku, fox, pila
Pila Mulligan: hi wol
nordin Naminosaki: are you a sheap
Fox Monacular: are you here to negociate our release, Wol?
Pila Mulligan: nordin seems ot have some kind of play going on
Wol Euler: heh
Zen Arado: have you a silver bullet?
nordin Naminosaki: what a bullshit
Bolonath Crystal: play as being vampire ;)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hmmmjammi, garlic :)
Fox Monacular: lol
Wol Euler: gone.
Wol Euler: I have nothing against banning people who need to be banned.
Zen Arado: back to Transylvania :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fox Monacular: it's still daylight here though...
Zen Arado: he got up too early
Wol Euler: he got up too stupid.
Zen Arado: :)
Wol Euler: anyway. next topic.
--BELL--
Wol Euler: hello sophia
Zen Arado: hi Sophia
Bolonath Crystal: hi sophia
Pila Mulligan: hi Sophia
Fox Monacular: hi Sophia
Fox Monacular: I've been having an incredibly sad day today (some bad news) and the vampire guy made me laugh really hard!
Pila Mulligan: comic relief
Wol Euler: oh, I'm sorry to hear it, fox.
Fox Monacular: just what I needed:)
Pila Mulligan: if you'd like to share some of the sorrow, Fox, please feel free
Wol Euler: we could filter it out of the log, if you wish.
Pila Mulligan: or we can just sit
Fox Monacular: thanks, Pila, a friend (not too close, but a person I liked a lot and cared about) committed suicide.
Fox Monacular: it's ok, we can leave it on the log
Pila Mulligan: yes, that's a tough one
sophia Placebo: oh sorry
Zen Arado: terrible
Fox Monacular: thanks...
Wol Euler: oh god, I'm so sorry.
Fox Monacular: he was bipolar
Fox Monacular: and november is always a really bad month
Zen Arado: bad for everyone
Pila Mulligan: true
Pila Mulligan: pre-winter
Fox Monacular: pme cam say that he got sick and died... of mental illness
Wol Euler nods
Pila Mulligan: what age, may I ask?
Fox Monacular: 25 I think
Zen Arado: even worse ...so young
Wol Euler sighs
Pila Mulligan: hugs to you Fox
Fox Monacular: I only knew him in his relatively manic phases... he was one of the most intense and brigh people I ever knew
Fox Monacular: seriously
Fox Monacular: thank everyone:)
Fox Monacular: you know, brightness and mental illness often go hand in hand
Zen Arado: some of the greatest achievers in history were bi polar
Pila Mulligan: death has plenty of questions around it, and suicide seems to amplify them quite a bit
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Fox Monacular: yes, definitely
Fox Monacular: it must be really hard on the family... because it seems 'preventable'...
sophia Placebo nods
Zen Arado: so hard onn those left behind
Fox Monacular: sorry to darken the sunday mood!
Pila Mulligan: although there is also the idea that everyone's life has a specified number of days, kind of fate vs free will
Pila Mulligan: it is real, Fox, Sunday is still Sunday
Wol Euler: yes, this is real.
Zen Arado: are suicide rates increasing does anyone know?
Fox Monacular: yes, always makes you wonder,
Fox Monacular: in my environment they seem to be increasing...
Wol Euler: I believe so, anecdotally.
Zen Arado: so much pressure on young ppl these days
Wol Euler: Met a clinical psychologist at a wedding this summer, he said sadly that his business was booming
Zen Arado: pressure starts earlier
Fox Monacular: pressure, and also isolation... like we are supposed to make sense of things on our own
Wol Euler nods. Definitely that sense of isolation.
Pila Mulligan: declining it seems, in the US, Zen: http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html
Pila Mulligan: slightly
Wol Euler: and everything and everyone else conspires to make us think that "the rest" are all very happy and successful
Zen Arado: ty Pila
Fox Monacular: yes, being 'happy and successful' in media terms seems discordant with the actual life experience
Wol Euler: I'm sorry I ejected the vammpire, Fox, I acted hastily.
Fox Monacular: :)
Fox Monacular: that's fine, Wol:)
sophia Placebo: i just feel sad when i meet a mentally ill person , no word would relief his/her pain/worries
Pila Mulligan: Wol is a steely sheriff :)
Wol Euler: Wol is in a bad mood and took it out on him.
Fox Monacular: that's what vampires are for I think:)
--BELL--
Wol Euler chuckles
Wol Euler: I read an interesting essay by Alain de Botton which relates to this, about creating a religion of/for atheists.
Wol Euler: particularly to address these issuees, of isolation and the false optimism of commercial society
Zen Arado: interesting Wol
Pila Mulligan: and calling it science?
Wol Euler: um, no :)
Zen Arado: think there is one
Bolonath Crystal: just what i thought, pila :)
Wol Euler: let me find the URL...
Zen Arado: Scientism
Zen Arado: no sorry thats for scientific atheists like Dawkins
Wol Euler: http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/utopia-june
Wol Euler: I found it very interesting, especially in terms of our discussions here
Fox Monacular: a couple of days ago I saw a video on youtube with Dawkins in terviewing one opf the concerned women for america
Wol Euler: what was she concerned about?
Fox Monacular: the same thing as Dawkins... evolution
Fox Monacular: basically they were both yelling the same question at each other "where is the evidence"!
Fox Monacular: although Dawkins looked better, because he knew his part very well
Fox Monacular: Do you think it can work? Secular religion?
Wol Euler: I don't know, but I find the suggestion intriguing.
Pila Mulligan: isn't is akind of reversion to polytheism
Wol Euler: It seems clear that many of us miss & search for something like that in our lives.
Pila Mulligan: the little gods
Fox Monacular: just what I was about to say , Pila:))
Pila Mulligan: God got too big
Wol Euler: god was sent off into early retirement
Bolonath Crystal: i think, one day religion will be free of all -isms. it will be replaced by individual spirituality
Zen Arado: Karen Armstrong said we got the wrong concption of God when we made him into a creator
Pila Mulligan: well, that's what committees do :) (escalations)
Fox Monacular: what about trasition or rites of passagfe?
Wol Euler: indeed, fox :)
Pila Mulligan: ritual and fellowship are the most tangible psychological foundation of religions
Bolonath Crystal: i agree, that we have a wrong concept of god... but being a creator doesn't seem to be the point for me
Zen Arado: hard to even say what religion is
Zen Arado: remember reading a def by Ninian Smart that listed about 10 requirements
Pila Mulligan: organized religions, that is -- community meeting places
Fox Monacular: I have a whole academic book from my religious studies classes about how we cannot even define religion
Wol Euler nods
Pila Mulligan: but a group of people with a lable is one way to start
Pila Mulligan: as in there's the 54th Street Communion of Motorcyle Matinencance
Wol Euler: perhaps that's one of the differences between religion and belief: that you need an Us and a Them for a religion?
Fox Monacular: Mircea Eliade has an interesting book - the sacred and the prophane
Fox Monacular: talking about how even in the secular world we still engage in religious behavious
Wol Euler: say more, fox?
--BELL--
Fox Monacular: hmm, from what I remember, for instance, we organize our dwelling in a cosmological way... and one would never, say, open a new research center without a ceremony, and a dedication, and important people are present... like an offering
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Fox Monacular: http://www.bytrent.demon.co.uk/eliadecom02.html - there are comments to the book
Zen Arado: nods
Fox Monacular: or atheists have baby showers
Wol Euler: I looked him up on wikipedia during hte pause, sounds fascinating.
Fox Monacular: he's amazing
Fox Monacular: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea_Eliade
Fox Monacular: he wrote a lot on history of religion, was one of the first poeple to describe hinduist practices for the west
Fox Monacular: he also wrote fiction, too, for instance Coppola's recent film - youth without youth is based on ELiade's book
Zen Arado: do you think higher educational standards are kiling off religious belief?
Zen Arado: just reading of Irish peasants in that article
Zen Arado: superstitious no doubt
Fox Monacular: well, personally I don't think so... :) I'm in science, and getting more and more into various religious traditions... but perhaps in a more detached way?
Fox Monacular: I have more respect for traditional practices than before I started studying
Wol Euler: I don't think that it's cause and effect, Zen, at least not necessarily so.
Zen Arado: but perhaps ppl are taught to question things more
Fox Monacular: yes, I agree with that
Zen Arado: I lost Christianity when I studied philosophy
Wol Euler: definitely, and I can see that this would conflict with the unspoken tenet of many religions that you do NOT question what you are told.
Wol Euler: I don't see that it needs to conflict with spirituality and belief.
Zen Arado: great emphasis on faith
Fox Monacular: perhaps questioning youe beliefs is important for your spiritual growth
Bolonath Crystal: but you didn't loose religion, zen, did you?
Zen Arado: well if you study arguments against the existence of God...
Zen Arado: well I am Buddhist now
Zen Arado: but not sure if that is a religion
Wol Euler smiles and nods to Bolo.
Pila Mulligan notes a distinction between imposed ideology and personal faith
Zen Arado: true Fox
Bolonath Crystal: maybe a higher educational standard brings up a 'higher developed' religion - whatever that may be
Zen Arado: its the God factor we seem to lose?
Fox Monacular: perhaps we need to reexamine the conception of God?
Bolonath Crystal: we are losing naive imaginations about god, thats all :)
Zen Arado: maybe Bolo
Bolonath Crystal: <--- optimistic ;)
Wol Euler: :)
Fox Monacular: not everybody sees God necessarily as on Renaissance paintings
Zen Arado: like that there is someone up there to look after us
Fox Monacular: A father figure is one possible archetype, which seem to have stuck:)
Wol Euler sees him as short, fat and bald, with Lennon glasses.
Zen Arado: :)
Fox Monacular: :)
Pila Mulligan: humming 'give peace a chance'
Wol Euler: exactly.
Zen Arado: Imagines
Zen Arado: :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fox Monacular: perhaps we are moving beyond the anthropomorphic father figure... :) slowly...
Pila Mulligan: part of the satisfaction of realistic cyncism is that it lets you appreciate how giving peace a chance is less profitable in the view of some
Zen Arado: but lots aren't
Wol Euler: true, pila.
Zen Arado: seems to be a need for that
Zen Arado: 'realistic cynicism' never heard of that Pila
Pila Mulligan: it is not a lable, just two words :
Pila Mulligan: :)
Zen Arado: ok
Zen Arado: thought it was a new movement :)
Fox Monacular: realistic cynicism - is it relative to scientific atheism? :)
Pila Mulligan: god forbid :)
Fox Monacular: :)
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Bolonath Crystal: imo the whole mess started when ppl banned god from their hearts and locked him up far away in heaven. since that day it got harder and harder to see god as our own essence
Wol Euler: right!
Zen Arado: 'cynicism is morally corrosive" I read lately
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: brains are morally corrosive also
Zen Arado: yes
Fox Monacular: funny, Zen, that's what they used to say in soviet union!
sophia Placebo: bye all !
Pila Mulligan: bye sophia
Bolonath Crystal: bye sophia
Zen Arado: bye Sophia
Wol Euler: bye sophia, take care.
Fox Monacular: take care, Sophia
Pila Mulligan: Yak, are you okay?
Pila Mulligan: just chekcking -- as you were the one the vampire turned his wrath on before Wol zapped him
Fox Monacular: ouch
Zen Arado: drained of blood?
Pila Mulligan: no fangs or anythiing?
Wol Euler reaches over and feels for a pulse.
Zen Arado: anaemic
Wol Euler: hello steve
Fox Monacular: Hey Steve!
Bolonath Crystal: hi steve
stevenaia Michinaga: hello :)
Pila Mulligan: Yak occasionally dozes or drifts from the keyboard, it may not be a cricitcal situation
Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
Zen Arado: Hi Steve...hard landing :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: never :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Wol Euler: ah! signs of life.
Yakuzza Lethecus: hihi :)
Bolonath Crystal: *g*
stevenaia Michinaga: how did the hour go, realizing how late I am
Pila Mulligan: well, after a visit by a roving vampire
Zen Arado: interesting
Zen Arado: vampire to cynicism
Zen Arado: :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: fox, how long have you lived in the russian federation ?
Fox Monacular: well, in russian federation:) from 1991 to 2000
Fox Monacular: but I was born in sovien union before that:)
Wol Euler: scientists always give precise answers :)
Fox Monacular: hehehe
Fox Monacular: I stil have a valid! passport with USSR on it
Fox Monacular: they printed too many, decided to use them still
Wol Euler: :)
Fox Monacular: I have lived all my life in Moscow, before we moved to Montreal in 2000:)
Zen Arado: you are happier there?
Fox Monacular: hmmm... hard to say... I'm pretty happy now - I have a family here... but who knows what it would have been back there
Zen Arado: yes
Fox Monacular: we moved for political reasons... so I do miss it a lot
Wol Euler nods
Fox Monacular: but realize I can never really go back
Wol Euler nods again
Pila Mulligan: there have been several articles in the news on how some of the former republics are now disenchanted with democracy, and reminiscent about the single party system
Zen Arado: I lived in Ausralia fro 8 years and often wonder if I would have been happier if i stayed there
Fox Monacular: so it's kind of a matter of fact for me
Zen Arado: they have pictures of Stalin I heard
Fox Monacular: yes, Pila, in fact in many cities they are re-installing Stalin statues
Wol Euler: heh
Zen Arado: miss the discipline he invoked
Pila Mulligan: pity
stevenaia Michinaga: Stalin?
Wol Euler: there were good sides to communism/stateism, no doubt.
Fox Monacular: yes, many think it was better before
Pila Mulligan: Stalin may not be the best choice for leadership
Yakuzza Lethecus: was stalinism ever kommunism ?
Wol Euler: that everyone had a job, had the busy-ness and dignity that a job brings, for example
Fox Monacular: yes, exactly, wol
Yakuzza Lethecus: was there ever a true kommunism on earth ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: communism sry
Zen Arado: not in Marx sense dont think
Zen Arado: but Marx didnt leave many details
Pila Mulligan: Stalin's political violence may have had the worst historical effect on the realization of communism
Fox Monacular: unfortunately it seems that it's only the minority of poeple that carwe about free speech and things like that
Fox Monacular: most people juyst want security
Pila Mulligan: true
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Zen Arado: nods
Yakuzza Lethecus: ,,just" security is a basic need for us
Bolonath Crystal thinks about the kibbuzim in israel. they were (are?) pretty communistic in fact, even if they never called it communism
Pila Mulligan: so were Shakers
Zen Arado: on a small scale
Yakuzza Lethecus: no planned economics
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think in small skales such community´s can be a great thing
--BELL--
Zen Arado: yes sure
Pila Mulligan: yes, cooperative socialism
Yakuzza Lethecus: FA Hayek had an issue with communism and planned economics because for example the tacid knowledge of a worker couldn´t be included and those things are mayor failure´s in planned economics
Wol Euler nods
Zen Arado: there was a greater divide between classes in Marxes days
Zen Arado: nowadays the working class also own shares
Zen Arado: divisions are blurred
Bolonath Crystal: shares are papers... the 'real hardware' still belongs to only a few
Zen Arado: yes and fewer 'workers' are buying shares i think
Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone!
Bolonath Crystal: nite yak
Pila Mulligan: bye Yak
Zen Arado: night Yak
Wol Euler: 'night yaku, take care
Zen Arado: maybe I should go too
Fox Monacular: sorry, was on RL
Fox Monacular: phone
Bolonath Crystal: well, i go to sleep. bye all :)
Pila Mulligan: bye Zen and Bolonath
Wol Euler: goodnight zen, bolo.
Zen Arado: bye all
Wol Euler: sleep well
Bolonath Crystal: om shanti
Pila Mulligan: shanti
Pila Mulligan: (= peace)
Wol Euler: ty
Wol Euler: I was trying to frame a question about class and society, before Zen left.
Pila Mulligan: how far have you gotten in the effort?
stevenaia Michinaga: thinking at the speed of fingers?
Wol Euler: The old-style class distinctions are less rigid, but I think we have just imposed other flexible barriers
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: I agree Wol -- castes are part of life it seem
Pila Mulligan: seems*
Wol Euler: nobody expects people to do the same job thteir parents did, live in the same house
Wol Euler: but that doesn't mean that we have reached equality.
Wol Euler: I remember reading that something obscene like 85% of Bush's last tax cut went to the richest 1% of the US population
Wol Euler: so class has diminished, but my feeling is that fewer people own a greater share of the total wealth than in Marx' time
Pila Mulligan: apart from tradtiions there remain strata that are just as tribal as the former class distinctions
Wol Euler: perhaps I'm wrong.
Pila Mulligan: you can define the starta by economics, recreation, vernacular, etc
Wol Euler: education is a good stratifier.
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pila Mulligan: I think the we have evolved from a tribal expereince that remains ingrained in society
Pila Mulligan: as long as their are chiefs there will be strata
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: Bush just redistributed all that money to his affiliated tribes and their chiefs
Wol Euler: really.
Pila Mulligan: he even said so
Wol Euler: "the rich get richer and the poor get done over" has always been true.
Pila Mulligan: and within the rich he also had favorites, so there were even sub-castes among the wealthy
Fox Monacular: I have to go... thanks everyone!
Wol Euler: bye fox, take care.
Fox Monacular: bye Wol, Steve, Pila
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Fox
Pila Mulligan: bye Fox
stevenaia Michinaga: time to go as well
Pila Mulligan: bye Steve
Wol Euler: bye steve, enjoy your sunday.
stevenaia Michinaga: see you tonight :)
Pila Mulligan: did you claim the log Wol?
Wol Euler: oh, I thought you did.
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Pila Mulligan: I did not, but I can
Wol Euler: ah, it was sophia
Pila Mulligan: ok
Pila Mulligan: this is Maxine's session i beleive
stevenaia Michinaga: I think I'll wait till the entertaiment portion of the show is over
Wol Euler: eh?
Pila Mulligan: ?
stevenaia Michinaga: the "who claimed the log"
Wol Euler: ah
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: sophia
stevenaia Michinaga: nods, already claimed
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: bye
Wol Euler: bfn
Wol Euler: goodnight pila
Pila Mulligan: bye Wol, see you next time