The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.

Eos Amaterasu: HI Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eos :)
Eliza Madrigal: I am a cloud to myself tonight, not sure how I appear to you
Eliza Madrigal: but SL is being tempermental
Eos Amaterasu: You appear in human form, with blond hairlocks flowing out of a brown top
Eliza Madrigal: Hm... yes someone asked me about that earlier... strange
Eliza Madrigal: unintentional av exploration
Eos Amaterasu: I need to do more of that, re Playing as Being Self....
Eliza Madrigal: what have you thought of?
Eos Amaterasu: well, I have 2 names, Eos and Amaterasu, each of which is a sun/dawn goddess, from different sides of the world....
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eos Amaterasu: How did I get myself in such a pickle? :-)
Eliza Madrigal: haha... nice pickle
Eos Amaterasu: One moment of enthusiastic choice, with who knew what consequences
Eliza Madrigal: you're just beginning to find out
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Calvino :)
Eos Amaterasu: surprisingly enough, yes
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Good evening ElizaEosRhia !
Eos Amaterasu looks around for Rhia
Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Cal!

Eliza changes appearance and now looks like a Japanese figurine

Eos Amaterasu hears The Vapors
Eos Amaterasu: "I'm turning Japanese I think I'm turning Japanese I really think so...."

Calvino Rabeni: Are you feeling nongraphic tonight Rhia?
Rhiannon Dragoone: Cal, what do you mean?
Eliza Madrigal: :) sigh... I'm still a cloud to myself
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Rhi
Calvino Rabeni: No avatar, just text
Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
Eliza Madrigal: And Bleu is just a name tag
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :)
Bleu Oleander: what??
Eliza Madrigal is having "issues" with SL but I will accept them
Bleu Oleander: all my hard work and i'm just a name tag?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eos Amaterasu: Oh, there's Bleu and Rhiannon - hi!
Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Eliza
Eos Amaterasu: nominalism
Bleu Oleander: hi Rhia
Rhiannon Dragoone: I can see you, Eliza
Bleu Oleander: hi Eos, Cal, Eliza
Rhiannon Dragoone: I can see all of you
Bleu Oleander: I can see all of you also
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: it may be just me... though earlier people were IMing me to see if there were SL issues for me too...

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: ah well :) I'm happy as a cloud
Rhiannon Dragoone: Eliza, i thought the expression was happy as a clam, not a cloud
Eliza Madrigal: I would be happy as a clam, too
Eliza Madrigal grins
Eos Amaterasu: clouds can be happy in a peaceful kind of way
Eos Amaterasu: but also full of thunderbolts and pouring rain
Eos Amaterasu: or dark and brooding
Eos Amaterasu: or letting through rays of light
Bleu Oleander: or raining on parades
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eos Amaterasu: but I see Eliza as a Japanes girl figurijne
Eos Amaterasu: figurine
Rhiannon Dragoone: Eos, i can see sthat
Eos Amaterasu: But maybe Bleu sees Eliza differently?
Bleu Oleander: nope, same
Eliza Madrigal is a walking rorshack test?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eos Amaterasu is reassured
Calvino Rabeni: What a Doll
Eos Amaterasu: yes, "project onto me all you want, said the cloud"
Calvino Rabeni: And Eos is a gray humanoid form
Eos Amaterasu introspects
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, I see Eos clearly... and now everyone else as well
Calvino Rabeni: with shape but no color or texture
Eos Amaterasu: maybe I am a zombie?
Eliza Madrigal: clouds versus zombies.. sounds like a new phone game
Eos Amaterasu: worst of all are the dreaded zombie clouds :-)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I've only read about those
Eliza Madrigal: rarely caught on film
Bleu Oleander: seen in sl though
Eliza Madrigal: they are comfortable here
Bleu Oleander: as all zombies are
Eliza Madrigal: understood
Eos Amaterasu: Calvino, is there a significance to the straps you have around your arms?
Eliza Madrigal giggles and thinks we all have had serious sort of days to be zombie bantering
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce :)
Bleu Oleander: hey Bruce
Rhiannon Dragoone is not sure she is following zombie bantering
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, everyone.
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, I was curious about that as well ... listens....
Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Bruce
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Bruce
Eos Amaterasu: We're loosely talking play as being self....
Bruce Mowbray is happy to listen.
Bleu Oleander: anyone have an alt/self report to share?
Rhiannon Dragoone: Bleu, not sure what an alt/self report would be
Eos Amaterasu: [07:09 PM] Eos Amaterasu: well, I have 2 names, Eos and Amaterasu, each of which is a sun/dawn goddess, from different sides of the world....
Rhiannon Dragoone: I know that people treat my alts as different, and they evolve differently
Bleu Oleander: Rhia, we're in the middle of an art project
Rhiannon Dragoone: ok, Bleu, what art project?
Bleu Oleander: where we are experimenting
Bleu Oleander: using diff alts and avatar looks
Bleu Oleander: to see how we feel and how others are with us
Bleu Oleander: we've been experimenting for a month or so
Bleu Oleander: and will have a special session to talk about it
Bleu Oleander: along with photos
Eliza Madrigal: Eos, I bet Steve and Paradise can help you shop...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: are your alts very different from each other Rhia?
Eos Amaterasu: Yeah, where do goddesses get their clothes?
Rhiannon Dragoone: Eos, clothes?
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, neat Bruce!
Rhiannon Dragoone: Bleu, well i have one that was supposed to be identical to me, but she is growing different
Bleu Oleander: nice Bruce
Rhiannon Dragoone: Others are very different; esp. the male ones
Eos Amaterasu: whew, was wondering what was happening with Bruce!
Eos Amaterasu: where's Robin?
Bleu Oleander: do you notice a diff with how other respond to you?

--BELL--

Rhiannon Dragoone: hi steve!
stevenaia Michinaga: hiya
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Steve :)
Bleu Oleander: hi steve
Eos Amaterasu: stevenaia, beyond transgendered, beyond trans-specied....
Rhiannon Dragoone: How would you communicate differences in avi's and alts through art?
Rhiannon Dragoone: Bleu, yes I do.
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Rhiannon Dragoone: Huntress is treated far better, even when people kow she's me, and she looks like me
Rhiannon Dragoone: I'm given more respect with male avatars, less as a black female
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Paradise
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Paradise :)
Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Paradise!
Eos Amaterasu: hi Para
Bleu Oleander: hi Paradise
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Steve and Para!
Eliza Madrigal: I haven't noticed those things so much, but I have noticed the difference between 'familiar' and 'unknown'
Paradise Tennant: smiles and waves all round :)
Eos Amaterasu: context of trust is everything with identity(ies)
Eliza Madrigal: yes, and lately many alts so maybe we are treating newcomers as more familar?
Eliza Madrigal: assuming we've known them a while.. not sure about that but it is a question
Eos Amaterasu hallucinates a talking coffee mug
Bruce Mowbray: a good question, too!
Paradise Tennant: find alts a bit confusing
stevenaia Michinaga: ... or a box :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: confusing for you or others?
Paradise Tennant: well
Paradise Tennant: just if I am not sure who the alt is
Paradise Tennant: always afraid of repeating myself
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mikhael
Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Mikhael
Paradise Tennant: just always makes me blink a bit
Paradise Tennant: hiya mikhael
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Mikhael, have you been to Play as Being before?
Eliza Madrigal: some say that diff alts trigger diff memory switches somehow
Eliza Madrigal: that they can remember one thing as one and another as another... but I'm guessing that takes a while of immersion as both?
Eos Amaterasu: would be consistent with multiple personalities having different physical diseases
Eliza Madrigal: yes!
Bleu Oleander: interesting!
stevenaia Michinaga: I didn;t know that about multiple personalities
Bruce Mowbray: one personality allergic to something -- another not allergic to it.
Bruce Mowbray: etc.
Calvino Rabeni: I'd not be surprised that natural human alt personalities have different e.g. allergy reactions and organic responses
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, i think alts can lead to MPD. but i also know that when Huntress was talking about certain texperiences that were mine, it felt like a lie, even though the paratar shared them
Eliza Madrigal: I've had the experience of having my sense of smell be stronger after playing as an alt... it may not have been related but it was curious
Bruce Mowbray: The biggest difference I find is in myself -- my own feels in different avis.
Eliza Madrigal: interesting Rhi!
Rhiannon Dragoone: Eliza, different alts may trigger different senses
Bleu Oleander: yes, I feel different in different avs
stevenaia Michinaga: My avatar is jsut another branch of Stevie, not another tree
Paradise Tennant: interesting
Eos Amaterasu: like the nine-headed monster
Bruce Mowbray: that's fascinating -- I'm thinking that all of my alts are also related to each other.
Paradise Tennant: maybe we are all clusters
Eliza Madrigal: hmm
Bleu Oleander: all seem like branches of the same tree, but feel different as isolated branches
Bruce Mowbray: My alts do not "disassociate" from each other.
Calvino Rabeni: I've noticed sometimes, feeling much better using a text-only medium, leading me also to notice possible unhealthy effects of the standard second life avatar.
Eliza Madrigal: well... branches of the typist but distinct?
Calvino Rabeni: So I'm skeptical Bruce
Calvino Rabeni: about that idea of not being dissociated
Rhiannon Dragoone: Cal, my using a text only client has made me feel worse; more dissociated
Bruce Mowbray: Yeah, all branches of the same typist.
Rhiannon Dragoone: I think the dissociation, though, will depend on the reason for the alt

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: If they are distinguishable, and different feeling, that seems like dissociation, by definition - maybe called partial dissociation
Eos Amaterasu: heh heh, bruce
Rhiannon Dragoone: When you're forced into an alt by circumstances, then that alt can be part of a role playing that's dissociative
Paradise Tennant: yes cal I do too keep my window really big and focus on the words
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eos Amaterasu: re dissociative, I've found that the SL people I know are dissaciated from their RL personas after I meet them
Eos Amaterasu: are not!
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eos Amaterasu: are not dissociated
stevenaia Michinaga: lol
Eos Amaterasu: that'
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, i'm thinking of Pamala Clift's usage, where dissociative refers to role or game playing within SL
Eliza Madrigal: that's an interesting observation too.... and also re intention...
Eos Amaterasu: s the interesting thing
Paradise Tennant: how do you see them when you think of them eos
Paradise Tennant: rl or sl
Eliza Madrigal: there are times when I try to zoom in and be as immersed as possible... and times when I pan out... just like in RL :)
Eos Amaterasu: how I see or name them varies....
Eos Amaterasu: there's fluidity there
Eliza Madrigal: hm
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well I can't help thinking of my being in this discussion and earlier I was in a discussion as an alt, as I was banned from the sim, as a person, and the nuances of the interaction
Rhiannon Dragoone: I participated in both cases, only if the earlier case there was a threshold; i was treated as an outsider until I crossed it, and then included in the group discussion, even though a "stranger."
Rhiannon Dragoone: And is that different from when i first arrived here? Yes, as my reputation preceded me, and ppl were worried i'd be too "philosophical."
stevenaia Michinaga: reminds me of the time in collge I cam back as a different alt, lost hair, beard, glasses, NO one recongized me, very much like changing to an alt
stevenaia Michinaga: (until I spoke)
Rhiannon Dragoone: steve, yes, people don't recognize you--yes, until you speak
Rhiannon Dragoone: But then appearances cloud that
Bruce Mowbray: I can empathize somewhat with what you're saying Rhia. I was once banned from a sim -- and it was strange. . . (also quite unfair)... But when I returned a few minutes later as an alt. all was well again (although NOT with me -- I never returned there after that).
stevenaia Michinaga: I suspect not combing your foliage got you banned
Rhiannon Dragoone: Bruce, the really odd thing is when the sim owner bans yoi, but most of the admins are your friends; you have to play games with them[--hence, dissociative
Rhiannon Dragoone: And it's interesting how you are treated as a noobie
Bruce Mowbray ponders unkempt foliage.
Rhiannon Dragoone: And I know no one recognized me, from things that happened subsequently
Calvino Rabeni: My question is, when using second life, are people's sense of bodily presence projected into the avatar, or retained in the physical body, or split between them... and if so, what's the effect of that splitting and/or projecting - that's a form of dissociative trance I think
Paradise Tennant: hmm
Bruce Mowbray: Depends on the degres of immersion, I would think, Cal.
Calvino Rabeni: Like an out-of-body experience, during dream or during a near death state
Rhiannon Dragoone: Cal, not sure i'm following
Eos Amaterasu: perhaps our subtle bodies, so to speak, inhabit the embodiment....
Bruce Mowbray: For me -- there is a great deal of projection of my typist into the avi.
Paradise Tennant: i would say freeing in a way when I first started sl to be able to fly to fall .. so wonderful .. made me feel 12 again :)
Eos Amaterasu: the subtle body in that sense is not "there" - it creates "there"
Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes -- I love to fly.
Eliza Madrigal: yes, as if
Calvino Rabeni: If that's so Bruce, then when projecting into the avi, there's "no one home" as much - less presence - in the physical body
stevenaia Michinaga: I find SL slow dancing, for instance can have a RL impact on my physical being
Bruce Mowbray: You see -- THERE it is! I (emphasis on I) love to fly.
Bruce Mowbray: immersion on steroids.
Eliza Madrigal: agree re dancing in SL...
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, that often feels like the case, Cal -- no one home.
Eliza Madrigal: dissociative may be too strong... when able to fly around SL I stopped flying in dreams but I started teleporting and spinning and various things...
Bruce Mowbray: When I first came into SL, I actually missed meals. . .
Bleu Oleander: dancing is a powerful immersive experience in sl
Eliza Madrigal: hm
Calvino Rabeni: So virtual world "immersion" means "absence" from the point of the real bodyh?
Bruce Mowbray: No, not necessarily.
Eliza Madrigal thinks there is lots of room for discovery
Bruce Mowbray: It's a matter of degree.
Calvino Rabeni: Mind in one place, body in another - sounds like a form of dissociation
Eos Amaterasu: I don't think so: real world immersion does not mean "absence" either
Bleu Oleander: are sl experiences in your dreams?
Calvino Rabeni: Even if it's a matter of degree, it is still an effect worth considering
Bruce Mowbray: but there is definitely some projection into the avi and "leaving" or some degree of absence from the typist.
Eos Amaterasu: but no more so than when I'm playing flute, and most of my attention is in the flute-playing part
Bruce Mowbray: Minds are always in some other place, aren't they - - - or is that just mine?
Bleu Oleander: similar effect with movies or books
Eos Amaterasu: in that sense I'm dissociated from the rest o f my body
Paradise Tennant: maybe to flip it a bit ..you see yourself on a broader plane not just hte typist but the player too
Bruce Mowbray: yeah -- projected into the movie, or the book, or even into an abstract idea.
Eos Amaterasu: SL is no diff
Calvino Rabeni: I disagree, Eos ... playing a flute or any other performance art takes exquisite physical control and embodiment
Eliza Madrigal didn't know Eos plays flute! :) Nice
Eos Amaterasu: Eos does not play flute :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eos Amaterasu: (used to play recorder)
Bruce Mowbray: It takes physical control but your MIND (and emotional self, perhaps) are not in the flute....
Bleu Oleander: what about a movie though Cal?
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, i associate into the avatar
Bruce Mowbray: me too, Rhia.
Eliza Madrigal: aw darn, I was really looking forward to NO... was going to bring daughter's flute...
Eos Amaterasu: the avatar is half dissociated, half associated
Eliza Madrigal: my motto is sort of 'safe if I can drop it'
Eos Amaterasu: do bring your musical instruments
Eliza Madrigal: :) Kidding
Paradise Tennant: hmm
Eliza Madrigal: not about the motto but about instruments
Bruce Mowbray: It seems to me that one of the reasons for practice to gain physical mastery of the instrument is in order to be able to "leave" it while playing.

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: "safe if I can drop it" .... could we "walk" out of sl tonight and not come back ever?
Bruce Mowbray: not me.
Rhiannon Dragoone: I could, but I won't
Eliza Madrigal: 'could' yes...
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
stevenaia Michinaga: would miss many things
Calvino Rabeni: That's an addiction-test of sorts
Bruce Mowbray: part of me would always remain with SL.
Eos Amaterasu: well, it's gonna happen when you die, but you'll also drop out of RL in many senses
Bleu Oleander: too final Eos :)
Eos Amaterasu: but similar
Eliza Madrigal: I sort of mean more in meditation too.... like when something is obsessing me, I can't forget it even for those mintues.. and that is a kind of flag....
Calvino Rabeni: Experiences are "practices" with effects.
Calvino Rabeni: The place to look is, not the experience "during" but after - e.g. after playing flute does one feel more alive and present in the physical body, or less ... then compare that to the feeling following a session of SL immersive experience
Bruce Mowbray: How about putting your avi in your Will?
Rhiannon Dragoone: I have to get going
Bruce Mowbray: so it can live on.
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Rhi :)
Rhiannon Dragoone: Bruce, oh, that is actually a good idea, as accounts do tgransfer
Calvino Rabeni: And Rhi, you could substitute "weapon" for "flute"
Rhiannon Dragoone: bye, Eliza!
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Rhia!
Calvino Rabeni: if you're a martial artist
Rhiannon Dragoone: Cal, lol
Calvino Rabeni: Bye Rhia
Rhiannon Dragoone: yes
Eos Amaterasu: Would you like your AVI to be in this pavilion, Bruce?
Paradise Tennant: would say that it is a better practise in small does
Paradise Tennant: doses
Rhiannon Dragoone: See you Eos, Bleus, Paradise, Steve
Bleu Oleander: bye Rhia :)
Eos Amaterasu: bye rhia
Paradise Tennant: good night rhia
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Rhi
Bruce Mowbray: Well, that would be up to the new typist, I suppose.
Eos Amaterasu: typists all the way down?
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bruce Mowbray: I think that there are novels being written about this very subject -- especially by persons of a transhumanist bent.
Calvino Rabeni: The "typist" is an animal, a mammal, a vertebrate, a multicellular life form that is the result of billions of years of practice at embodiment on planet earth
Bruce Mowbray: "Upload" your psyche into the avi -- and it lives on after your body dies.
Eliza Madrigal contemplates 'lucid' SLing as opposed to being sucked in
Eliza Madrigal: dreams to waken
Bruce Mowbray: Letting yourself be "sucked into the medium" is part of the experience, I feel.
Eliza Madrigal: yes... sucked but in lost?
Bruce Mowbray: Who, then, is lucid? -- The typist?
Eliza Madrigal: yes wondering...
Calvino Rabeni: I'd be careful with that practice of lucidity -it may be asking for a painful experience
Bleu Oleander: who else?
Calvino Rabeni: :) Bleu
Eos Amaterasu: sucked in enough to care, lucid enough to be clear
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
Bruce Mowbray: Life is trouble; only death is not. To be alive is to undo your belt and LOOK for trouble -- Zorba.
Calvino Rabeni: It might be different to label it as "projected out" rather than "sucked in"
Paradise Tennant: lol
Eos Amaterasu: sic deus dilexit mundi
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eos Amaterasu: "for god so loved the world"
Paradise Tennant: well I think you have to go with your confort zone .. what feels right to you
Calvino Rabeni: And as Brene Brown pointed out in her talk, we're "wired for struggle"
Eos Amaterasu: lucidly giving in
Bleu Oleander: could just enjoy the ride
Bruce Mowbray: Isn't a REALLY GOOD BOOK one that "sucks you in"?
Eliza Madrigal nods @ Paradise, for instance multiple avs 'at once' in diff discussions is too fragmenting for me
Calvino Rabeni: Well Bruce, just who "did it" such that the person came to be "in" the book?
Bleu Oleander: hard to keep several IM's going let alone two avs
Eliza Madrigal: yes... and writing well too Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: one disappears for a while I guess....
Eos Amaterasu: if he/she who did it did it really well they disappear in the experience
Eos Amaterasu: like Shakespeare
Calvino Rabeni: Even the ability to be hypnotized is considered as a "skill" and capatiblity, by practicing hypnotists
Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes, especially in the act of creating -- one is drawn out of one's self, I feel -- or often so.
Bruce Mowbray: "Swept away" and all that.
Calvino Rabeni: The hypnotist doesn't "do it" to the client
Calvino Rabeni: the client does it
Calvino Rabeni: It's an imaginative power
Eliza Madrigal: thoughts evolving on this matter...
Paradise Tennant: smiles was just thinking that
Paradise Tennant: cal
Paradise Tennant: that sl is all about imagination
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Bleu Oleander: so is life
Bruce Mowbray: The client allows it to happen -- from within.
Eliza Madrigal: !! Bleu :DD
Paradise Tennant: and the ability to let go of the present moment your body is in .. to fly with your mind in a way
Calvino Rabeni: That "allowing" would be one part of the client "allowing" another part to go ahead and do something outside the "box"
Bleu Oleander: can fly in many mediums
Eos Amaterasu: RE who the typist is, for later reading: http://www.thenewatlantis.com/public...-code-delusion
Calvino Rabeni: yes, shamanic travel included
Bleu Oleander: did you see the "diving bell and the butterfly"?
Eliza Madrigal: thank you all
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, yes Bleu
Eos Amaterasu: yes
Calvino Rabeni: Do you know Talbott, Eos?
Bruce Mowbray: My gf in RL is a hypnotist (I maintain her website) -- and she ABSOLUTELY WILL HAVE NOTHING to do with SL!
Eos Amaterasu: No, Cal
Bruce Mowbray: Has never been in-world and refuses even to hear about it.
Eliza Madrigal: wow bruce, interesting
Bleu Oleander: fear of ??
Bruce Mowbray listens for more about the diving bell.
Bleu Oleander: great movie

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Will look that up on imdb,com
Paradise Tennant: hmm yes for some people sl is not helpful
Bleu Oleander: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0401383/
Eliza Madrigal: I'd better sign off.... so sleepy _/!\_
stevenaia Michinaga: night ELiza
Bruce Mowbray: Good night, Eliza. Thanks!
Paradise Tennant: smiles .. me too the typist needs to go to bed ;)
Eos Amaterasu: "mixing memory & desire", Bleu, re the movie?
Eliza Madrigal: Night :)
Bleu Oleander: night Eliza
Eos Amaterasu: 'night E
Paradise Tennant: namaste all :) glad you share my virtual world :)) and thank you for the conversation and the company :)
Calvino Rabeni: Good night, dream well, Paradise and Eliza :)
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Eos Amaterasu: Should also poof onto pillow....
Bruce Mowbray: Good night Para!
Eos Amaterasu: 'night all
Bruce Mowbray: Good night Eos!
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for the article,Eos
Bleu Oleander: night all :)
Bleu Oleander: fly well :)
Bruce Mowbray: Oh dear -- my typist completely lost track of time! I off to bed also!
stevenaia Michinaga: night all
Bruce Mowbray: right after I check on the Ohio State score in the football game... Sugar Bowl.
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now.
Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Bruce !