2011.01.12 13:00 - Cause ans Effect

The Guardian for this meeting was Fefonz Quan. The comments are by Fefonz Quan.

Wol Euler: shalom, fefonz.
Fefonz Quan: Hi Wol!
Wol Euler: I haven't seen you in a while, so "happy new year"
Fefonz Quan: happy new year, yes :-)
Wol Euler: how is family life
Wol Euler: ?
Fefonz Quan: wonderful, filled with exciting things every day
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: I'm glad to hear it
Wol Euler: are you taking new-father leave?
Fefonz Quan: papa started been smiled at :)
Fefonz Quan: nope, we don't really have that hting here
Wol Euler: ahhhhhhh :
Wol Euler: hmmm
Wol Euler: and yet Israel seemed so socially progressive in many ways :)
Fefonz Quan: i took 1 an a half weeks of, but thenback to work
Fefonz Quan: well, my wife get 14 weeks
Wol Euler nods.
Fefonz Quan: gets*
Wol Euler: I *believe* in Germany that there is something like a total of six months (!) available, and either partner can take as much of that as they wish
Wol Euler: so people divide it up, or Daddy stays home the whole time ...
Fefonz Quan: sounds nice...
Wol Euler: hello djag, welcome to Second Life (born today!)
DJAG Resident: tk
Fefonz Quan: yes hello
DJAG Resident: hi
Avatar Scorpio: hello
DJAG Resident: hi
Wol Euler: feel free to join us, this is a meditation group called "play as being"
Wol Euler: hello zon
Zon Kwan: hi all
Fefonz Quan: Hello zone
DJAG Resident: cool
Wol Euler: right-click on a cusion and choose "sit" to join us
Avatar Scorpio: are you all meditating?
Fefonz Quan: you shoudl know Djag, that we re4cord our conversations here
Fefonz Quan: and put them on a website
Wol Euler: hello av, sorry, I didn'T see you arrive
Avatar Scorpio: hello
Fefonz Quan: hello avatar
DJAG Resident: thanks boys
Fefonz Quan: (that's a generic name) :)
Wol Euler: yes, we record and publish these sessions on our website, http://wiki.playasbeing.org/
Wol Euler: may we have your permission to include your SL name and your comments in the published log?
Fefonz Quan: so we should have your permission to be on those records aswell,
Avatar Scorpio: I have been here before thanks
DJAG Resident: sure
DJAG Resident: no problem
Fefonz Quan: (guess we are talking to Djag)
Wol Euler: ty
Fefonz Quan: thanks.
--BELL--
Fefonz Quan: and then they were three
Wol Euler: :)
Avatar Scorpio: is there a subject today?
Wol Euler: not yet :) Do you have one?
Avatar Scorpio: sure, how do you choose subjects and why?
Wol Euler: what a good subject :)
Fefonz Quan: ah, the meta-subject choice :)
Avatar Scorpio: :)
Wol Euler: basically we tend to talk about matters that arise from practice, or our thoughts about it, or what our monkey mind was saying while we were *trying* to practice :)
Wol Euler: or sometimes we just chat, as Fef and I were doing, about his new daughter
Avatar Scorpio: so this group is social as well as meditative?
Fefonz Quan: which is a very worthy subject i haev to say1
Wol Euler: agreed
Wol Euler: and yes, it's definitely a community of friends
Avatar Scorpio: your first child?
Fefonz Quan: yep
Wol Euler: there is a great feeling of companionship, of acceptance and non-judgement and even affection here.
Avatar Scorpio: bring her up well !
Fefonz Quan: she is still asleep now :)
Avatar Scorpio: the few times I have been here it seems so Wol
Wol Euler smiles.
Fefonz Quan: though we could all take lessons from her in appreciating the appearnaces, in focus and concentration, in being in the moment :)
Avatar Scorpio: like a sponge taking in the now every minute
Fefonz Quan nods
Wol Euler: hello aph!
Fefonz Quan: Hey Aphro
Avatar Scorpio: actually she's taking lessons from you though
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm appreciating your appearance here!
Fefonz Quan: one lesson I learn intensely, is that of impermanence
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Fefonz
Wol Euler listens.
Avatar Scorpio: hello Aphrodite
Wol Euler: say more, fef?
Avatar Scorpio: impermanence?
Fefonz Quan: she changes so quickly, that it's like a new person every couple of days,
Avatar Scorpio: we are too, so I hear
Aphrodite Macbain: like the weather
Fefonz Quan: so the temorarity of things, experiences, is so solid and clear (and frustrating sometime)
Aphrodite Macbain: how frustrating?
Fefonz Quan: Av, I hope you didn't gain 50% of your weight in the last month ;-)
Avatar Scorpio: better to accept it than fight it
Fefonz Quan: of course.
Wol Euler: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps understand why
Avatar Scorpio: why?
Aphrodite Macbain: why it has happened. The cause of the change
Avatar Scorpio: ultimate causes?
Fefonz Quan: well, this change is the way things are - babies eat, sleep, grow and develop. it's the right course of things
Avatar Scorpio: does everything have a cause (another subject?)
Fefonz Quan: and it is wonderful.
Aphrodite Macbain: usually
Avatar Scorpio: usually?
Aphrodite Macbain: I hear an echo
Avatar Scorpio: funny
Wol Euler: funny
Aphrodite Macbain: funny
Wol Euler: sorry :)
Fefonz Quan: sorry
Avatar Scorpio: nice come backs
Wol Euler laughs
Aphrodite Macbain: very clever
Avatar Scorpio: but the question was real
Fefonz Quan: IN my experience, many things are very difficult to find causes for
Aphrodite Macbain: It's an interesting question. Does everyghing have a ause (and maybe an effect)
Wol Euler: hello cal
Calvino Rabeni: Hi everyone
Fefonz Quan: HI Cal
Avatar Scorpio: hello Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: Nothing has "a cause"
Avatar Scorpio: do you discuss topics like that?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes that's part of wghat makes life interesting, to work out the causes of things
Aphrodite Macbain: can you expand on that Cal?
Fefonz Quan: I emphasizze more witht eh knowing that everything has an effect
--BELL--
Fefonz Quan: that seemsto me a more fruitful practice and contemplatin object
Aphrodite Macbain: someone has their mic on...
Avatar Scorpio: both are good contemplation objects
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks fefonz
Calvino Rabeni: One of the biggest confusions in western folk philosophy is that there are events that line up in nice little linear chains of causes... even to think there is a single or main cause for anything
Fefonz Quan nods to Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: even aristotle had a more complex categorization of types of causes
Calvino Rabeni: it's been downhill since then
Calvino Rabeni: in terms of thinking generically about causes
Wol Euler: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: ah, I see what you mean. But we can't deny the very simple facs of cause and effect
Aphrodite Macbain: facts
Calvino Rabeni: Such as - everything is a billiard ball?
Calvino Rabeni: we pay attention to certain aspects of how things work
Wol Euler: well, there is gravity, for example. A clear physical cause and effect
Aphrodite Macbain: no but an action results in a reaction
Avatar Scorpio: probably a little more complex than that
Wol Euler: thermodynamics too
Calvino Rabeni: it says a lot about what is important to us, and about how we can analyze things, and our motivations, more than about how reality "works"
Aphrodite Macbain: what says that Cal?
Avatar Scorpio: well, we are limited by our brains and how we process things
Calvino Rabeni: It's not even well defined and agreed on by philosophers
Aphrodite Macbain: cause and effect?
Calvino Rabeni: there is the problem of emergent properties
Avatar Scorpio: we deffinitely have a perspective
Wol Euler: cause and effect can explain simple physics, but most interactions are not simple
Calvino Rabeni: synergies, etc. what happens depends on the interaction of the parts within the whole
Calvino Rabeni: but the whole influences the parts
Calvino Rabeni: circular causality is the standard case
Fefonz Quan: when i take it to more mundane issues, i find it hard to find a causeforevery little thing that happens to me during the day
Aphrodite Macbain: you accept things as they are?
Fefonz Quan: I do hope so
Calvino Rabeni: If you wanted to catalog the factors that "caused" some little thing, you'd get back to the big bang
Avatar Scorpio: you are a whole and a part - so difficult to see everything clearly
Aphrodite Macbain: or you find it too difficult to find the answer and let it go?
Fefonz Quan: and i know that my actins will have an effect - which is a good reason to act rigtht
Calvino Rabeni: "the" answer?
Calvino Rabeni: Life presents - actually consists of - irreducable complexity
Fefonz Quan: exactly calvino - which makes it in a way a non-interesting questin
Aphrodite Macbain: It allows us to predict with relative certainly
Fefonz Quan: Aphro - i don't believe there is a clear answer, that's the issue
Calvino Rabeni: A lot of guesswork and faith comes into that prediction
Calvino Rabeni: and willingness to accept where it doesn't match the model
Aphrodite Macbain: If a runner hats t run faster, he will find all the different factors that allow him to move with speed through a space
Calvino Rabeni: and maybe pretend that mismatch doesn't exist
Fefonz Quan: because of the complex interconnectivity between so many things, the assumptin that you can go back in a linear line to find a cause for something seems unreasonable to me
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: Of course there are many times that I just accept something is the way it is; other times I wonder why- either because I'm just curious, ir because it's urgent I know
Fefonz Quan: so the runner is looking for actions that will result in the future
Aphrodite Macbain: yes fef
Calvino Rabeni: People also usuall retrofit their interpretations of what happened to imply more grasp of causes
Avatar Scorpio: good to be curious, makes like interesting
Calvino Rabeni: like - "I knew it all along"
Wol Euler: true!
Fefonz Quan: we are all in favor of curiousity - yet there is a choice of the direction to shine it in
Aphrodite Macbain: sounds more like an ego thing
Avatar Scorpio: that's why there are so many directions
Fefonz Quan: what sounds like an ego thing?
--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm interested in understand how things work because I'm interested in the world. Not because I want to look wise
Calvino Rabeni: The main purpose of the idea of causality is an ego thing - to create the reassuring illusion of being in control and directing events ... the secondary purpose is to feel wise .. the third is to get things to happen in a predictable way
Fefonz Quan: hope we didn't make Aphrodite leave
Calvino Rabeni: I was wondering that, Fef
Avatar Scorpio: one can't be curious for it's own sake Calvino?
Calvino Rabeni: for its own sake ... without cause or effect ?
Calvino Rabeni: are we curious about curiosity?
Calvino Rabeni: people find curiosity motivating
Calvino Rabeni: fun
Wol Euler: defintitely :)
Avatar Scorpio: :)
Calvino Rabeni: learning about things is a way to engage with them
Calvino Rabeni: and maybe those side effects are "enough"
Calvino Rabeni: I think si
Calvino Rabeni: so
Calvino Rabeni: but it does serve the needs of the organism
Fefonz Quan: somehow from the conversatin it seems like we said that we dont' look for linear causes because wer are not curious
Fefonz Quan: I think this is not what - I at least - were saying.
Fefonz Quan: on contrary - I feel that because i have spent a lot of time on analysing and judging every single jesture and action in order to understand the 'cause' of the happenings,
Fefonz Quan: I came to the conclusin tat this is - in many cases - a dead end.
Fefonz Quan: that the way to understand the course of things - up to the oint they can be understood at all - is by looking at the bigger picture,
Avatar Scorpio: may not lead to ultimate answers, but can help in understanding some level of things to promote flourishing
Fefonz Quan: point*
Wol Euler: I mailed Aphro, btw, she had to answer the door. She *thinks* she said so here, but clearly was lagging and her words were lost
Wol Euler: she's not upset :)
Calvino Rabeni nods at "promoting flourishing"
Fefonz Quan: good to know that Wol
Fefonz Quan: sometimes the need for clear 'causes' and roots in the past are just a cover for not accepting the present - which is for me one of the major practices
Avatar Scorpio: the past has a lot to say about the present
Fefonz Quan: (to DO accept the present, of course)
Calvino Rabeni: Well that Fef would be, no longer being so interested in using causality to structure ego
Calvino Rabeni: but on the other hand it could be turned around
Calvino Rabeni: and the lessons and chains of how things work could be turned to educating and promoting a larger self
Avatar Scorpio: nice to talk with you all, have a nice rest of your day :)
Calvino Rabeni: lessons of the past instead of justifications for the present
Fefonz Quan: I agree with that too calvino
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for stopping by Avatar
Fefonz Quan: good night Avaatar
Calvino Rabeni: It's not a property of the concept or idea - such as causality - it's how that idea is used
Fefonz Quan: so i'll use one lesson from the past - if you go to sleep late - you are very tired in the morning
Wol Euler: :)
Fefonz Quan: hence my resulting action will be to say good nigth to you all :)
--BELL--
Wol Euler grins.
Wol Euler: goodnight fef, sleep early and well.
Wol Euler: big hugs to the family!
Fefonz Quan: _/!\_
Calvino Rabeni: Practical Wisdom :)
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Fefonz Quan: (early has already passed away...)
Fefonz Quan: thanks Wol, by Cal, wol
Calvino Rabeni: Low probability events are interesting
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Calvino Rabeni: because they present things that have to be dealt with but can't be predicted
Wol Euler: "black swans" :)
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Calvino Rabeni: so my black swan was a pool of water on the roof
Wol Euler: mm?
Calvino Rabeni: today, so I got up on the roof by ladder to clear it
Calvino Rabeni: it was only there because of an unlikely weather pattern, snow, rain, some plant debris, and how a prior weather pattern disrupted a maintenance task
Calvino Rabeni: When the local newspaper does a low volume edition, there ends up being a section that mixes local crime reports with recent scientific curiosities
Wol Euler: :)
Calvino Rabeni: I think its basically the Black Swan section
Calvino Rabeni: random seeming unpredictable events
Wol Euler: a nice descriptoin
Calvino Rabeni: that don't fit well into other narratives
Wol Euler: though a true black swan is not a non-sequitur
Wol Euler: it's relevant and related, just unexpect-able
Calvino Rabeni: Once you learn of a new type of astronomical mega object
Calvino Rabeni: which was unexpected
Calvino Rabeni: the rules of what is expected are then amended
Calvino Rabeni: but perhaps the black swan idea
Calvino Rabeni: is about outliers within existing frameworks?
--BELL--
Wol Euler: outlier is a good word, yes.
Wol Euler: like unfolding the map to reveal a new previously unknown territory
Calvino Rabeni: An unexpected emergent property
Wol Euler: the connection is obvious once you see that the roads go through, but you couldn't have guessed what was concealed
Wol Euler: usually, yes.
Calvino Rabeni: Exploding oil rig?
Calvino Rabeni: Mass behavior of a financial system?
Wol Euler: well, the oil rig might have been considered predictable by some.
Calvino Rabeni: By some ... the same is true of the financial system
Wol Euler: if you switch off safety features, then you can expect Life to remind you of why they were invented.
Calvino Rabeni: you can find someone who predicted its meltdown
Wol Euler: yes, and they are sometimes just pessimists who opposed it on principle :)
Calvino Rabeni: I think, if you take a system and encumber it with enough safety features, it will collapse due to black swan events
Wol Euler laughs.
Calvino Rabeni: so for instance, when you solve all the common human health problems
Wol Euler: that is probably also true
Calvino Rabeni: then new diseases emerge from the "creativity" of life
Wol Euler: and the population suddenly explodes
Calvino Rabeni: they were not able to emerge previously
Wol Euler nods
Calvino Rabeni: because they were covered by the prior problems
Calvino Rabeni: Because the causal "system" does not have closure
Calvino Rabeni: any adjustments create their own unmanaged side effects
Calvino Rabeni: often involving a change in scale, I think
Calvino Rabeni: overpopulation and resource depletion being emergent issues we haven't seen the last of
Wol Euler: not by a long shot!
Wol Euler: and peak oil will be only the first of them, alas
Calvino Rabeni: and are the result of the success of the technology of agriculture
Calvino Rabeni: to solve one problem is to change the rules of the sytem and create a new class of problems
Wol Euler nods.
Calvino Rabeni: I wonder what part of the "mass" of software systems currently, is security related, for example ... certainly a larger percentage than when the technology was simpler
Wol Euler: we are addicted to single-shot solutions" to ... actually, that's wrong. That is not the core of it
Wol Euler: the root addiction, the core problem, is to seeing the world as a field of unrelated tiny single-shot problems
Calvino Rabeni: agree
Wol Euler: and willfully ignoring the connections
Calvino Rabeni: and that is a good synopsis of the concept of "cause" we were talking about earlier
Wol Euler: and the context
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: "Causality" - the practice of seeing the world as a fiend of unrelated tiny single-shot problems
Calvino Rabeni: but classically it goes a little beyond that into the power of making chains of those little units
Wol Euler: single-linked chains of single beads
Wol Euler: whereas we really need a spiderweb at least, if not a mesh of them
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: There are folk-philosophy concepts like Occams Razor that we might be better off without
Calvino Rabeni: in favor of some well-thought-out ideas about causality and complexity
Wol Euler: though it does have its uses, e.g. puncturing pseudo-religions
Wol Euler grins
Calvino Rabeni: Except that it is an and aesthetic idea, an article of faith
Calvino Rabeni: And what you're suggesting is pragmatist
Calvino Rabeni: which makes sense to me
Wol Euler frowns. Is there a word missing from that sentence?
Calvino Rabeni: a noun after "pragmatist" ? OK pragmatism
Wol Euler: [14:50] Calvino Rabeni: Except that it is an and aesthetic idea, an article of faith <<-- in there
Calvino Rabeni: The idea that we don't care so much, if a notion is actually true, but rather, what the pragmatic effect is of believing it
Wol Euler nods.
Calvino Rabeni: :) the sentence seemed complete to me
Calvino Rabeni: Anyway you can't prove Occams Razor, or deduce it from anything
Wol Euler: true, it's primarily a way of short-circuiting discussoin
Calvino Rabeni: so to use it as a way of reinforcing another notion - that the world is intrinsically simple - doesn't have logical force
Wol Euler nods
Calvino Rabeni: that's why I called it aesthetics and metaphysics
Wol Euler: reprehensible, I realize.
Wol Euler: yes
Calvino Rabeni: no, they're both fine I think,except insofar as they bias inquiry into "reality"
Calvino Rabeni: perhaps by causing reductionist approaches to be favored over synthetic ones
Calvino Rabeni: I think you might be intested in David Weinberger
Calvino Rabeni: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Weinberger
Wol Euler: it's midnight, I must get some sleep. And yes, I am :)
Wol Euler is a Cluetrain fan
Calvino Rabeni: I like the way he opened his thought process within his blog, in the writing of his latest book
Calvino Rabeni: trying to figure out in what ways intellectual work needs to simplify things and where not
Calvino Rabeni: etc.
Calvino Rabeni: Good talking to you Wol
Calvino Rabeni: Sleep well
--BELL--
Wol Euler: ty, you too. enjoy the evening
Calvino Rabeni: For the log a couple more on Weinberger
Calvino Rabeni: http://www.evident.com/
Calvino Rabeni: And his work at Harvard's Berkman center
Calvino Rabeni: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/people/dweinberger
Calvino Rabeni: Where they're trying to figure out where we're going with all this technology stuff